OOTP Baseball 2006 Reports

[MizzouRah]

I think it's $40 if you don't pre-order.

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

I think it's $40 if you don't pre-order.

I don't think so. I did a little research and from what I found it looked like it was a 20%-10%-0% deal. 20% from Dec-Feb, 10% in March, and no discount since opening day.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

I don't think so. I did a little research and from what I found it looked like it was a 20%-10%-0% deal. 20% from Dec-Feb, 10% in March, and no discount since opening day.

You're right.

https://www.elicense.com/sigames/sto...eid=1386996450

$34.99

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Johnny Slick

dola,Let's face it: just about every game has its own bits of stupid. Baseball Mogul has hot dog pricing inextricably linked to the game even though they haven't had that for a couple years now. Strat-o-Matic one year trotted out "The Regulator" for their computer version, an arcade-type deal that would make the game generate a result from the best available column if you timed your swing correctly. Front Page Sports had, well, the fact that they didn't actually come out with an actual new football game after 1994. Puresim has to date avoided the really goofy or game-stopping stuff, but it's still relatively young (and to me, anyway, it's always going to be linked to a moron on the OOTP boards headlining poor reviews of PS with "Great news!!!!").

I am not defending manager mode except to say that it probably looked unstupid at the time.

Look, there is stupid and annoying and stupid and game killing.

If a team stocks their A ball leagues with 30 year olds, it's stupid and annoying. If it has 23 OF and 22 position players, that's stupid and annoying.

If the computer AI trades players after signing them to a large contract, that's also stupid and annoying. As are a lot other things in the game currently (pitchers with an 83 MPH heater leading the league in K's, etc)

But when you start having guys signed and released on the same day by the same team, all time league HR leaders getting sent to A ball, pitchers logging multiple inning in the field in a season, etc. . . you start destroying the single player experience. There isn't enough stats or interface in the world to cover up the glaring AI flaws of these reports.

I've said from the start I'll give it a chance. I'll replay and upload 100 seasons worth of fictional play. I'll set up a few leagues and play around with things myself. But if/when I see some of these things? The game will start collecting cobwebs while I play PureSim.

[Schmidty]

I've spent hundreds of hours playing OOTP6 (and the other versions before), and although there are annoyances like the ones everyone is mentioning, I've more than gotten my money's worth every time.

I'll definitely be buying this. If not tomorrow, then within a couple of weeks. I'm trying to decide if I should buy FM2006 today and then get OOTP in 2 weeks, or vice versa.

[Johnny Slick]

I'm certainly not advocating playing OOTP despite what you see to be game-killing flaws. For the record, I've made infinity times more contribution to the PS community (the deadball XML) than I ever did to OOTP (complaining and spam). I'm glad to see that, despite the vibe I got from you before, you are willing to test drive the game this year and only put it down after getting disgusted with it. That's fine. Frankly, that's been what I've been doing with virtually every career football sim over the last 5 years.

Personally, I want both of these games out for as long as possible because it's going to be the competition, not any lack of baseball-watching experience on Markus' part or foot-dragging on SS's (can you believe it's been 9 years since the last FPS: Baseball came out? 9 YEARS!!??) that's going to create the Ultimate Baseball Game.

[dervack]

Even though it's long passed discussed, players can't be traded till June 1st I believe after signing a FA deal.

[Stevebsfan]

Originally Posted by Johnny Slick

trola,Isn't there a rule in real-life baseball that says that once you sign a free agent, you can't trade him for 365 days? That would fix this issue pretty quickly (although based on my experience with 6.5, the AI would just release the guy instead).

I think the rule is a temp no-trade clause until June 1st meaning they *can* accept a trade earlier, but it's not very common.

I'm not 100% on that rule though.

[Stevebsfan]

Originally Posted by dervack

Even though it's long passed discussed, players can't be traded till June 1st I believe after signing a FA deal.

haha we both answered an old question at the same time. Odd

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Johnny Slick

Personally, I want both of these games out for as long as possible because it's going to be the competition, not any lack of baseball-watching experience on Markus' part or foot-dragging on SS's ... that's going to create the Ultimate Baseball Game.

And that's where we disagree.

At this point, I honestly don't believe that Markus has anything left to offer toward the quest for the Ultimate Baseball Game except the same problem-ridden product that we've seen for multiple iterations.

[Johnny Slick]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And that's where we disagree.

At this point, I honestly don't believe that Markus has anything left to offer toward the quest for the Ultimate Baseball Game except the same problem-ridden product that we've seen for multiple iterations.

I understand (although of course don't agree with) the animus and your overall point, but even if you think OOTP is past its prime why wouldn't you want it to stay out there if only to spur Shaun into continuing to make great strides on his game? That's capitalism. Competition spurs the invisible hand. It's next to impossible for Puresim to improve as much without OOTP around as it would with OOTP around. I'm not calling Shaun lazy; it's just part of human nature. Similar to the way sprinters never run as fast without a guy running beside them.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Johnny Slick

I'm certainly not advocating playing OOTP despite what you see to be game-killing flaws. For the record, I've made infinity times more contribution to the PS community (the deadball XML) than I ever did to OOTP (complaining and spam). I'm glad to see that, despite the vibe I got from you before, you are willing to test drive the game this year and only put it down after getting disgusted with it. That's fine. Frankly, that's been what I've been doing with virtually every career football sim over the last 5 years.

Personally, I want both of these games out for as long as possible because it's going to be the competition, not any lack of baseball-watching experience on Markus' part or foot-dragging on SS's (can you believe it's been 9 years since the last FPS: Baseball came out? 9 YEARS!!??) that's going to create the Ultimate Baseball Game.

I think I've stated repeatedly throughout this thread that I'd give the game a chance. I'll let it pass/fail on the copy I have n my hands.

And you know something? Maybe I'll just find the damned thing FUN. Who knows? if it is, I'll post it here and say so. I doubt that'll happen at this point. . . but you never know.

Jon,

I think OOTP is an incredible, incredible game for multiplayer leagues, so I do think he adds something to the table. Not being a huge MP guy myself, that's all lost on me.

But there are things in OOTP that I'd love to see other programs do. I hope Shaun takes a look at those statistical reports for example. And I do think competition is good for the genre as a whole.

[spleen1015]

JonInMidGA,

I believe Tris is the other OOTP guy you are referring to.

[Johnny Slick]

FWIW, I'm looking at the new reports and I'm only seeing a random 30+ year old or two in A-ball. This doesn't bother me because:

- in prior versions, that spot would have been "filled" by a ghost player. What's better in the long term? Signing an existing player who's gone to crap to be your backup OF, or creating a 19-year old scrub who will never see the light of day?

- it's not THAT far off from real-life. Edgardo Alfonzo, for example, was signed to AA ball before he got the call up recently. I know, AA isn't A, but it's not *that* far off.

The waiver, signing, and trade AI does need some work, I'll freely admit.

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by Johnny Slick

- in prior versions, that spot would have been "filled" by a ghost player. What's better in the long term? Signing an existing player who's gone to crap to be your backup OF, or creating a 19-year old scrub who will never see the light of day?

19-year old scrub who will never see the light of day.

[Johnny Slick]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

19-year old scrub who will never see the light of day.

Of course, but the point I was (clumsily) trying to make was: at the end of the day, does it really matter whether it's Rich Amaral or Joey "Tommy's Grandson" Lasorda? I don't think it does. It might add some annoying A-ball seasons onto the tail end of a couple peoples' careers, but again... on the level of "annoying", not "game breaking".

It's also really, really rare. I saw one 30+ guy in A-ball in the teams that I looked at in the new report version.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

I believe Tris is the other OOTP guy you are referring to.

Woot. That's the name I was trying to think of.
Thanks for filling in that blank, keeps it from driving me any crazier than I already am.

[MalcPow]

Originally Posted by Johnny Slick

I understand (although of course don't agree with) the animus and your overall point, but even if you think OOTP is past its prime why wouldn't you want it to stay out there if only to spur Shaun into continuing to make great strides on his game? That's capitalism. Competition spurs the invisible hand. It's next to impossible for Puresim to improve as much without OOTP around as it would with OOTP around. I'm not calling Shaun lazy; it's just part of human nature. Similar to the way sprinters never run as fast without a guy running beside them.

I'm guessing the response to this is that if OOTP wasn't around someone like Shaun might be able to make enough off of Puresim to do nothing but work on the game for living. I don't know if this would ultimately be the case, and I'm not advocating anything like that, but "capitalism" and "competition" don't always work out the way we would like in reality.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Johnny Slick

It's also really, really rare. I saw one 30+ guy in A-ball in the teams that I looked at in the new report version.

Dunno which set of reports are "new" at this point (i.e. maybe there's an upload since the one I looked at this morning) but if those are the latest ones, you didn't see many in Class A because they're sitting in the Rookie League instead.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Woot. That's the name I was trying to think of.
Thanks for filling in that blank, keeps it from driving me any crazier than I already am.

He was the most vocal guy concerning OOTP back in the OOTP2/3 days. I know he was on the OOTP3 beta team, then disappeared. I always assumed that something happened during that process to push him away.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I think OOTP is an incredible, incredible game for multiplayer leagues, so I do think he adds something to the table. Not being a huge MP guy myself, that's all lost on me.

And not being an MP guy period, that's all pffftt worth of meaningless to me.

I dunno, maybe I should be more specific though -- maybe my quest should be described as the "Ultimate Single-Player Baseball Game".

(I'm not giving you a hard time or being sarcastic here, your comment about the MP value of OOTP genuinely makes me wonder if the distinction isn't one that needs to be made. It may just be that the two ideals honestly aren't compatible)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

He was the most vocal guy concerning OOTP back in the OOTP2/3 days. I know he was on the OOTP3 beta team, then disappeared. I always assumed that something happened during that process to push him away.

He exited that process about the same time I did IIRC. I strongly suspect that he left it for the same reasons I did.

[Johnny Slick]

Originally Posted by MalcPow

I'm guessing the response to this is that if OOTP wasn't around someone like Shaun might be able to make enough off of Puresim to do nothing but work on the game for living. I don't know if this would ultimately be the case, and I'm not advocating anything like that, but "capitalism" and "competition" don't always work out the way we would like in reality.

Sorry, but I don't buy this for a second. Or maybe y'all are REALLY cheap - both games combined cost me $5 more than Oblivion. Nah, there's more than enough out there to fund both Markus and Shaun. Although maybe Baseball Mogul could fold up.

(actually, as awful a game as Mogul is, it's come up with some really nice ideas that I'd like to see included in next year's PS and OOTP. The pitch modelling, forex, is pretty cool, with players getting + and - ratings to hit certain pitches adding to the strategy of the game. Doesn't make the game worth buying, but it's the perfect example of how competition for the sake of competition can really help this stuff)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Johnny Slick

I understand (although of course don't agree with) the animus and your overall point, but even if you think OOTP is past its prime why wouldn't you want it to stay out there if only to spur Shaun into continuing to make great strides on his game? That's capitalism. Competition spurs the invisible hand. It's next to impossible for Puresim to improve as much without OOTP around as it would with OOTP around. I'm not calling Shaun lazy; it's just part of human nature. Similar to the way sprinters never run as fast without a guy running beside them.

Except that I don't believe rewarding unacceptable product spurs development as well as rejecting it. Where's the motivation to improve if there's reward for being half-assed?

Remember, there isn't an infinite pool of money in the scenario. And some of the dollars a hopeless product gets drains away money that could otherwise go to one that at least still has some hope.

I'm pretty sure that the "perfect" economic model lies somewhere between the two extremes that what you're saying & what I'm saying represent (maybe one of our resident ecomomic gurus could define that better) but at this point I really don't see OOTP as much more than a dry hole as far as single-player is concerned.

And since I'm afraid there's too much room for misinterpretation here, I have absolutely zero vested interest in seeing Shaun/Puresim making money. As long as it's a part of Matrix, it has zero chance of getting my dollars anyway. Point being that I'm not trying to shill for Matrix, et al here, that's the furthest thing from my mind.

[oykib]

Originally Posted by dervack

Even though it's long passed discussed, players can't be traded till June 1st I believe after signing a FA deal.

Not only that. Any veteran dealt in the middle of a multi-year contract has the right to renegotiate or become a free agent at the end of the season in which he's traded.

[dervack]

Originally Posted by oykib

Not only that. Any veteran dealt in the middle of a multi-year contract has the right to renegotiate or become a free agent at the end of the season in which he's traded.

Well see, Maybe Markus did code that afterall, instead of becoming a FA at seasons end, the teams will just release them to save themselves the trouble.

[Toddzilla]

This may be a stupid question, but how does the AI look compared to last year's version? Better, Worse, or Apples-Oranges?

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

This may be a stupid question, but how does the AI look compared to last year's version? Better, Worse, or Apples-Oranges?

Looks silly according to that HTML output, anyways.

[Eaglesfan27]

Reading all of these issues, I'm back to waiting to purchase.. possibly waiting a very long time. Too many issues that existed in previous versions appear to still exist.

[CraigSca]

Some of those player cards are hard to read, especially with the up/down the minor league trail some of those guys go through. I know the statistics are great, and, in general, the more the better, but I fail to see the significance of a guys batting average with men on 1st and 3rd.

I heard someone say you can roughly sim a season in 6 mins. If this is truly the case, and the fact the game is keeping track of this level of minutae, that's awesome. I'm concerned however that this level of statistical tracking, paired with the FM-style interface will just run this thing into the ground. Is it bad if a real MLB game "sims" faster than a simulation?

[SunDevil]

Markus lost me after OOTP5. With the whole ITP game that was barely supported, the game engine changes with OOTP6, people kept on saying that the changes were needed for the future. And then Markus goes off and decides to scrap the whole game anyway. Also with the HTH feature that was dragged out way to long, the noticable little things that people mention for 2 or 3 versions and they are still in there, I never got the impression that Markus actually listens to the customer when asking for a feature or for a fix. I think that Markus is great programmer and I really hope this next iteration is a success, but I will not be picking up this game anytime soon. It will also be interesting to watch how long this game is supported. I am wondering if we will continue to see the pattern of one or two patches that are stretched out over the next 4 or 5 months and then another one about 4 months before they release the next version.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Dunno which set of reports are "new" at this point (i.e. maybe there's an upload since the one I looked at this morning) but if those are the latest ones, you didn't see many in Class A because they're sitting in the Rookie League instead.

Just a quick glance at the current reports (I don't know if they've been updated today)

Wichita Dazzle - 2x 30 year olds in the entire minor league system.
Sav Fran Sea Wolves - 6x 30+ year olds, 3 under AA

I didn't look at every team, only those two, chosen at random. That's not horrible. I could live with it. But look at this:

http://reports.ootpbaseball2006.com/...ster_page.html

Not a lot of 30 year olds, but good lord that's a big roster for a ROOKIE league team.

Again, if the problem were just 30 year olds at the A level, I can live with it. The problems here look to be much deeper.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

http://reports.ootpbaseball2006.com/...layer_989.html

Through 2011, this guy had been a standout pitcher for Colorado, one of the best in the league.

Then...

11-26-2011 Signed a 4-year contract worth a total of $25,360,000 with the Philadelphia Moguls organization.
01-01-2012 SISA scouting updated ratings (potential): Stuff: 8 (8); Movement: 13 (14); Control: 11 (11).
01-14-2012 Was traded by the Philadelphia Moguls to the Wichita Dazzle, along with $3,000,000, in exchange for CF J. Severance, SP D. Ridings.

Now that's not necessarily a bug, but it does seem unrealistic to have a guy sign a big money FA contract, then get traded before ever suiting up for his new team. Have you ever seen that in real-life MLB with an elite player? My guess is that the talent drop had something to do with it, although why is a guy taking a talent hit on new year's day?

Got drunk. Broke his arm.
Said he fell at his house, but reports are that he was scene on a snowmobile with friends.

Spoke out in the media, etc. Philly decided they didn't want that headache

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by SunDevil

Markus lost me after OOTP5. With the whole ITP game that was barely supported, the game engine changes with OOTP6, people kept on saying that the changes were needed for the future. And then Markus goes off and decides to scrap the whole game anyway. Also with the HTH feature that was dragged out way to long, the noticable little things that people mention for 2 or 3 versions and they are still in there, I never got the impression that Markus actually listens to the customer when asking for a feature or for a fix. I think that Markus is great programmer and I really hope this next iteration is a success, but I will not be picking up this game anytime soon. It will also be interesting to watch how long this game is supported. I am wondering if we will continue to see the pattern of one or two patches that are stretched out over the next 4 or 5 months and then another one about 4 months before they release the next version.

I think that is where SI will help. They've already announced a first patch by June 7th I believe. SI has consistently shown they will work hard on patches and bug squashes long after the release. I don't think Markus is getting a pass from the company in that regard. I expect a couple of major patches at the very least.

But. . . my concern is that some of these things have been problems with OOTP from the beginning. I'm not sure they will get fixed without a few months of going through code.

[rexallllsc]

All I want....ALL I want...is FM Baseball

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Reading all of these issues, I'm back to waiting to purchase.. possibly waiting a very long time. Too many issues that existed in previous versions appear to still exist.

I think the real question here is: How does this happen when starting from scratch?

[Desmond]

That Trish dude was awesome. Watching him go nuts trying to convey the problems of the game to that group was a pleasure. Shame that 4 iterations later alot of what he was talking about still isn't fixed.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Desmond

That Trish dude was awesome. Watching him go nuts trying to convey the problems of the game to that group was a pleasure. Shame that 4 iterations later alot of what he was talking about still isn't fixed.

He was the (potentially) most valuable beta tester I've ever seen for any game. He really "got it" in terms of what was needed, he had a passion for trying to improve things, and was relentless in his pursuit of things he saw that needed improvement. He didn't have much tolerance for settling for things being less than they could be.

Alas, that only works if someone on the other end is willing not only to let him speak but to actually listen to what he was trying to say. Unfortunately, the second half of that equation was sorely lacking.

Unless he underwent some sort of dramatic change since those days, if I ever see him endorsing a baseball game, that's one I'd be very likely to buy.

[korme]

What time on May 31 is it going to be released? This is vital info. If it's gonna be released at like midnight tonight, I'll stay home and download it here. If not til say noon tomorrow or later, I'll drive to school tonight and get it on my laptop.

[jbmagic]

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

What time on May 31 is it going to be released? This is vital info. If it's gonna be released at like midnight tonight, I'll stay home and download it here. If not til say noon tomorrow or later, I'll drive to school tonight and get it on my laptop.

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=119573

[Bee]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Just a quick glance at the current reports (I don't know if they've been updated today)

Wichita Dazzle - 2x 30 year olds in the entire minor league system.
Sav Fran Sea Wolves - 6x 30+ year olds, 3 under AA

I didn't look at every team, only those two, chosen at random. That's not horrible. I could live with it. But look at this:

http://reports.ootpbaseball2006.com/...ster_page.html

Not a lot of 30 year olds, but good lord that's a big roster for a ROOKIE league team.

Again, if the problem were just 30 year olds at the A level, I can live with it. The problems here look to be much deeper.

My understanding is the default on the rookie league is no roster limit, but you can set a limit when creating a new league.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Bee

My understanding is the default on the rookie league is no roster limit, but you can set a limit when creating a new league.

Interesting.

I wonder if setting a limit would help or hurt with some of the age issues. I'll set a limit on rookie league guys when I set my fictional 100 year sim.

How many teams do you guys want to see with it? I'm going to sim it straight through with fictional players and no expansion. Should I go with 24? 26?

All teams will have AAA, AA, A, R league teams. Anybody have reccomendations for me? If there is interest, I'll use the Lahman database and run a 100 year sim with it sometime early next week.

[jbmagic]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Interesting.

I wonder if setting a limit would help or hurt with some of the age issues. I'll set a limit on rookie league guys when I set my fictional 100 year sim.

How many teams do you guys want to see with it? I'm going to sim it straight through with fictional players and no expansion. Should I go with 24? 26?

All teams will have AAA, AA, A, R league teams. Anybody have reccomendations for me? If there is interest, I'll use the Lahman database and run a 100 year sim with it sometime early next week.

standard MLB league format size. Default setting, Fictional

[korme]

Use 6,000 teams and get back to us next month

[CraigSca]

Well, despite all the issues, I pre-ordered tonight. I'm a sucker for baseball. It's a disease.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Interesting.

I wonder if setting a limit would help or hurt with some of the age issues. I'll set a limit on rookie league guys when I set my fictional 100 year sim.

How many teams do you guys want to see with it? I'm going to sim it straight through with fictional players and no expansion. Should I go with 24? 26?

All teams will have AAA, AA, A, R league teams. Anybody have reccomendations for me? If there is interest, I'll use the Lahman database and run a 100 year sim with it sometime early next week.

my vote:
usa with 30 teams, aaa, aa, a, r (with roster limits)
japan league with 12 teams
fictional rosters

[CraigSca]

How's this for a merciless owner?!

Matthew Ritter currently leads the league with a .386 BA. He's also hit 42 HRs and has 99 RBIs in 381 atbats for the Colorado Springs Worms. He's a 29 year old Albert Pujols-type. Unfortunately for Matthew, he suffered a career-ending injury on August 4th. The next day, living up to their name, the Worms release him. Probably had to pay for his own taxi back to the airport as well.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

I think the real question here is: How does this happen when starting from scratch?

Well, if you're coding with the same ideas and the same basic approach, I imagine you can arrive at the same shortcomings. It's not that these are coding errors per se, but errors in implementation/logic/judgement. In other words, if you build a house from a blueprint and you wind up with a house with no doors, if you start over from scratch but use the same blueprint, odds are your second house isn't going to have any doors either.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

my vote:
usa with 30 teams, aaa, aa, a, r (with roster limits)
japan league with 12 teams
fictional rosters

That's two votes with standard MLB settings. Supposedly you can sim that many years in about 4 or 5 hours with just MLB players. Not sure how the Japanese league would fit in.

If I get the game tomorrow before I head off to work, I'll use the settings you gave. If not, I'll do it without the Japanese league so I can get something posted by tomorrow night/Thursday morning.

[CraigSca]

When they say they can sim that quickly, have they said what kind of computer they used?