The Inevitable Thread...

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

That's the most hilarious thing I've seen all day.

Hey I'm serious. Some of you read something and say to yourself "Will that offend anyone?" Screw that approach. I'm saying you should be reading these posts, and when you come across posts that you think cross whatever subjective line you have drawn in your mind, you should actively look for reasons not to act rather than to act.

Moderate your moderation, is all I'm asking.

When SkyDog announced the multi mod thing, I said "Hey it looks like SD is going to take the actions that he would normally unilaterally perform and run them past some traditionally sane members of the community". I thought that sounded like a great idea.

What we've gotten instead is a half dozen or more very active moderators looking for opportunities to draw their own line in the sand to declare what is appropriate. Instead of SkyDog making mostly reasonable choices and communicating them badly, we have a bunch of mods making very subjective decisions about what is appropriate.

While I don't have a problem with HA's boxing. I do think that now having seen the first few posts in the thread that Wade felt MUCH more strongly about it than I do. I think Wade had a much more visceral reaction to the post than probably most posters here. I'll go so far to say that I think he probably over-reacted to the thread. Because he is a mod, I think that is a problem. I don't expect moderators to get so emotionally charged about a post. I also would expect moderators to step back from situations where they are so clearly effected by something, and have other moderators review the situation. I'm not suggesting that Wade was responsible or involved in HA's boxing, but in rereading that last sentence or two I see where that might not be clear. I was attempting to speak in general terms, not specifics.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by TheOhioStateUniversity

I cannot believe anyone is defending a statement like the one that started HA's rant......interesting.



that is the dumbest statement I have heard in a long time and it reeks of racism and bigotry

And you think your in intent harmless hot-not polls are not racist?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

And you think your in intent harmless hot-not polls are not racist?

Sexist? Probably, yes. Racist? Not so much.

[Flasch186]

did you mean sexist? or racist?

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Sexist? Probably, yes. Racist? Not so much.

But his polls are based on what race the women are. How is that not racist?

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Hey I'm serious. Some of you read something and say to yourself "Will that offend anyone?" Screw that approach. I'm saying you should be reading these posts, and when you come across posts that you think cross whatever subjective line you have drawn in your mind, you should actively look for reasons not to act rather than to act.

Moderate your moderation, is all I'm asking.

When SkyDog announced the multi mod thing, I said "Hey it looks like SD is going to take the actions that he would normally unilaterally perform and run them past some traditionally sane members of the community". I thought that sounded like a great idea.

What we've gotten instead is a half dozen or more very active moderators looking for opportunities to draw their own line in the sand to declare what is appropriate. Instead of SkyDog making mostly reasonable choices and communicating them badly, we have a bunch of mods making very subjective decisions about what is appropriate.

While I don't have a problem with HA's boxing. I do think that now having seen the first few posts in the thread that Wade felt MUCH more strongly about it than I do. I think Wade had a much more visceral reaction to the post than probably most posters here. I'll go so far to say that I think he probably over-reacted to the thread. Because he is a mod, I think that is a problem. I don't expect moderators to get so emotionally charged about a post. I also would expect moderators to step back from situations where they are so clearly effected by something, and have other moderators review the situation. I'm not suggesting that Wade was responsible or involved in HA's boxing, but in rereading that last sentence or two I see where that might not be clear. I was attempting to speak in general terms, not specifics.

I'm probably pulling back the curtain more than I need to, but whatever... Part of the funny things about this whole mess is I think I am probably one of the mods that tries to communicate the most...

Anyway, I bolded part of Glen's statement. FWIW, this is what I did and I agree with him that when you feel that strongly about a post, you have to step back when a boxing/not boxing decision is made. I did that here, and other mods have done it in various other situations.

I think to say that a mod can't/shouldn't be emotionally charged about a post is silly though. The idea that a mod cannot have an emotional reaction from time to time is unrealistic. However, to say that when they do they need to take a step back and rely on the other mods to make the decision, that is realistic imo.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

But his polls are based on what race the women are. How is that not racist?

they are!!! I did not know that at all? Youre telling me that he couldnt put Condoleeza Rice up there? I didn't know. Hmmm, color me ignorant.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by wade moore

You answered your own question there.

I mentioned no one by name, and all I said about the mods involved in my boxing is that they didn't look past the bare surface. I'm saying they rushed to judgement.

As for having the facts wrong. All I did was present the facts as I saw them, and I made it clear that it was my perspective.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Post whatever personal attacks you want without logical discussion of the issue.

What is there to "discuss" Wade?

You've made it clear that you were party to the HA boxing, a decision that I find as breathtakingly ridiculous as anything that's ever taken place at this forum. It's caused me to seriously revise my opinion of you and reinforced my belief that this whole "Mod Squad" idea was the worst one SD ever had.

The only thing that might conceivably redeem those involved in this latest debacle would be their immediate removal from any sort of moderation role and, quite possibly, their exit from the forum entirely since their credibility as adults capable of even simple judgement is shot to hell & gone at this point.

What's left to "discuss"?

You, collectively & individually, fucked up.
Either admit that and then correct it as best you can or deal with the reality that perception of you is inevitably going to be linked to your actions.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by TheOhioStateUniversity

reeks of racism and bigotry

Pot meet kettle.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by wade moore

...

I think to say that a mod can't/shouldn't be emotionally charged about a post is silly though. The idea that a mod cannot have an emotional reaction from time to time is unrealistic. However, to say that when they do they need to take a step back and rely on the other mods to make the decision, that is realistic imo.

I'd agree with that. Even the part about my expectation being unrealistic.

[Flasch186]

I think because there are so many different debates that have spawned within this thread that it is possible that this thread could have a very long life. Im guessing 10+ pages......I see more side discussions being spawned, more debate about the mods, Hell Atlantic, Bubba...etc. It could have very good stamina (19-maybe 20), Flair (15), Aggression (17), and it is obviously from Cameroon but on full transfer to a mid-level team (perhaps middlesbrough - Or Forest Green!!!).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

... it is obviously from Cameroon but on full transfer to a mid-level team (perhaps middlesbrough - Or Forest Green!!!).

But can it get a work permit?

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

What is there to "discuss" Wade?

You've made it clear that you were party to the HA boxing, a decision that I find as breathtakingly ridiculous as anything that's ever taken place at this forum. It's caused me to seriously revise my opinion of you and reinforced my belief that this whole "Mod Squad" idea was the worst one SD ever had.

The only thing that might conceivably redeem those involved in this latest debacle would be their immediate removal from any sort of moderation role and, quite possibly, their exit from the forum entirely since their credibility as adults capable of even simple judgement is shot to hell & gone at this point.

What's left to "discuss"?

You, collectively & individually, fucked up.
Either admit that and then correct it as best you can or deal with the reality that perception of you is inevitably going to be linked to your actions.

I have no problems that my perception is linked to my actions in the HA boxing. I stand by them.

The fact that you disagree with it so strongly means very little to me in the long run. If I were to post the posts you've reported for boxing people would see that you have no room being the arbiter of what is and is not a good modding decision. Your ideas of boxings revolve around who agrees or disagrees with you, simple as that.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'd say it'd probably be safe to use "capitalists" or "Christians" and there wouldn't be much of an outcry. "Republican" or "conservative" would obviously work without a problem.

Jon,

First off, I'm an idiot. I say that because I was one who voted for the thread to be deleted and had zero issue with a boxing of HA. None at all. I thought he took a serious subject and tarnished it with his "caged animals" analogy. I thought that not only was that offensive, that it could get worse the longer the thread continued on.

I guess what really offends me is what is posted above. I take a pretty strong lean to the right. I try to avoid religious discussions, but I've went on the side that Christians are getting unfairly attacked many, many times on this board. While I don't always agree with your opinion all the time in political discussions, I do understand and respect the view more than many here.

I'm not a PC guy. Not in the least. I think people need to stop being offended by everything and that understanding is far more important in the long run than stopping a persons right to speak.

Having said all that, I still support what took place. I thought it was uncalled for, out of line and ridiculous. I would have thought that if someone had attacked Chritians, Republicans, Jews, Hindus, the Atlanta Falcons, MILF's or Mods. If that makes me an idiot, I can live with it. But I won't sit here and listen to you tell me it would have been different if "x" had been in the place of Africans. That's not what I believe in.

I can't say what the rest of the Mods would have done, but I can promise you I would have been passionate about it and stated my case.

There were other mods who disagreed with the boxing and the closing of the thread. There is a very diverse group of people in the mod group. Some believe in being heavy handed. Others believe in letting nearly everything go. Some are in between. I think I'm somewhere in between, but others can judge for themselves what they think.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Your ideas of boxings revolve around who agrees or disagrees with you, simple as that.

Wrong again. Are you trying to set a single day record or something?

They all involve clear and obvious examples of trolling. I won't deny that there's a trend to the examples I report, but every single one of them was nothing more than trolling, albeit trolling that's condoned by the pitiable excuse for moderation that you represent.

You really ought to quit while you're behind here WM, you're clearly in over your head at this point. Move on to another thread for a while or something, frankly you're moving from taking an idiotic action to just being another whiny ass.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

I think because there are so many different debates that have spawned within this thread that it is possible that this thread could have a very long life. Im guessing 10+ pages......I see more side discussions being spawned, more debate about the mods, Hell Atlantic, Bubba...etc. It could have very good stamina (19-maybe 20), Flair (15), Aggression (17), and it is obviously from Cameroon but on full transfer to a mid-level team (perhaps middlesbrough - Or Forest Green!!!).

Nice.

That reminds me that I should go back to running Queen's Park into the ground in the Scottish Third Division instead of arguing here. This is a day off for goodness sakes.

[TroyF]

Dola:

If you think I should take a leave from the forum for that decision, I'll respectfully refuse. I stand by my decisions as a mod and at what point SD or a majority of the forum think I'm not doing my job well in that regard, I'll step aside.

But I'm not leaving because you don't like a decision I made.

[MalcPow]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

I think because there are so many different debates that have spawned within this thread that it is possible that this thread could have a very long life. Im guessing 10+ pages......I see more side discussions being spawned, more debate about the mods, Hell Atlantic, Bubba...etc. It could have very good stamina (19-maybe 20), Flair (15), Aggression (17), and it is obviously from Cameroon but on full transfer to a mid-level team (perhaps middlesbrough - Or Forest Green!!!).

Flasch: Anticipation 20, Eccentricity 20

[SirFozzie]

Some day, all arguments will be settled by playing Football Manager.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

frankly you're moving from taking an idiotic action to just being another whiny ass.

That is gold. Ironic, ironic gold.

[SirFozzie]

Wow. Football Manager and personal arguments are trying the rarely seen simultaneous threadjack

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Wrong again. Are you trying to set a single day record or something?

They all involve clear and obvious examples of trolling. I won't deny that there's a trend to the examples I report, but every single one of them was nothing more than trolling, albeit trolling that's condoned by the pitiable excuse for moderation that you represent.

You really ought to quit while you're behind here WM, you're clearly in over your head at this point. Move on to another thread for a while or something, frankly you're moving from taking an idiotic action to just being another whiny ass.

Again, your definition of "obvious trolling" is just not accurate. The reaction of the rest of the board to the posts that you have reported prove that. This thread by HA, and many posts from you in the past, are far more clear examples of trolling than the threads you report.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Troy,

I appreciate your defense but here's the difference -- I don't believe for one single solitary second if the group HA chose to exercise his hyperbole on had been any of the ones I mentioned that there would even have been a discussion about whether to lock the thread/box anybody/etc.

In other words, I don't believe you would have had the opportunity to discuss it/take a position because it wouldn't have come up in the first place. That's a different matter than what position you would have taken if it had come up.

Now, if you're telling me (and I'm misreading it) that you would have personally taken the issue before the Mod Squad for action, then I'll accept your word on it and believe you. But in that case, I'd also challenge you to become more vigilant and active in your pursuit of those situations because there's certainly no shortage of them.

Worth noting here too, I suppose, is that I'm pretty consistent in support of strong moderation as a working model ... but it should also either be consistent in its application or at the very least transparent about what the inconsistencies are going to be.

Right now, this looks like an ugly combination of moderator overreaction, bias against HA, and somebody's idea of a sacred cow, applied in varying degrees. by various mods. And that just sucks AFAIC. I've seen a helluva lot more offensive stuff than his choice of hyperbole, so this just makes no sense to me at all.

[WSUCougar]

What apparently seems to be continually evading some people's minds - and by "minds" I'm using the term loosely in JIMG's curious case - is that no moderator or group of moderators will ever precisely match the thinking, judgement, and expectations of one individual. So while some of you will continue to rant and rave about the gross injustice of it all, there's another dozen or so queing up to shoot their collective, envenomed wads if a moderation decision goes a different direction.

We do the best we can to address the concerns placed before us, either through our own observation or through reporting of other board members. It's truly laughable to suggest that we lurk around waiting for the next opportunity to box somebody for some trivial statement or PC-related cause. That couldn't be farther from the truth. We don't bring the hammer lightly - or, more correctly speaking only for myself, I don't.

As for you, JIMG, let's just say that the hammer is out and ready to pound.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Again, your definition of "obvious trolling" is just not accurate.

What the two of you are not realizing is that you are actually agreeing.

You say John reports posts that disagree with his.

John says that he reports posts that are obviously trolling.

You are talking about the same thing, just using different words to describe it.

[Schmidty]

I really, really cannot believe that people are complaining about HA's boxing. He should have been banned, not boxed.

That thread gives me braggggadocious deja vu.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Right now, this looks like an ugly combination of moderator overreaction, bias against HA, and somebody's idea of a sacred cow, applied in varying degrees. by various mods. And that just sucks AFAIC. I've seen a helluva lot more offensive stuff than his choice of hyperbole, so this just makes no sense to me at all.

I'm being completely serious and not combative like I have been in my other posts.

You do realize that what you find offensive differs from probably about 95% of the rest of this board, correct?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Again, your definition of "obvious trolling" is just not accurate. The reaction of the rest of the board to the posts that you have reported prove that.

You really are going for the single day record, aren't you?

All that the "reaction to the rest" proves is that there's easy acceptance here of trolling as long as you pick the right targets.

Hell, there's regular and consistent trolling of several individual board members specifically on a daily basis -- trolling of them, I mean, not by them -- And not all of those who are blantantly trolled are particularly on my list of favorite people either, but that doesn't make it any less obvious when it happens. But they've been deemed okay to target by what passes for powers that be around here.

It is what it is, but damn, at least nut up & admit those biases.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Samdari

What the two of you are not realizing is that you are actually agreeing.

You say John reports posts that disagree with his.

John says that he reports posts that are obviously trolling.

You are talking about the same thing, just using different words to describe it.

I actually agree with you...

I'm probably not making my point all that clear. I guess part of what I'm trying to say is I'm at least basing what I'm saying on a jury of 7 whereas Jon is making it based on a jury of 1. If 7 agree and the 1 disagrees, I tend to believe that what the 7 believe is more obvious than what the 1 believes.

Part of the thing with modding this board or being a member - you're never going to get everyone to agree on what posts are trolling and what posts are not. There is a point where a decision has to be made. In this case, Ben has made it so that there is a group of 7 (plus the person/persons that report a post) to make this decision, rather than 1. I think this tends to make a more accurate reflection of what is good for the board.

Do all 7 always agree? No. However, in every case that I can think of at least 5 or 6 agreed, and often 7.

So, I tend to take that as a more accurate reflection of "obvious trolling" than Jon's reported posts that no one in the community reacts to except for him.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I really, really cannot believe that people are complaining about HA's boxing. He should have been banned, not boxed.

That thread gives me braggggadocious deja vu.

You know, HA is just loving this. He loves the attention and the spectacle this is creating.

I bet he's just pounding away at some poor Chipotle Southwest Cheese Steak sub with glee while constantly hitting the "refresh" button to see what post comes next.

Either that or he's over at Sports Digs hanging out with Franklinboble and Mrs. Franklinoble.

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

But his polls are based on what race the women are. How is that not racist?

Which race do his polls claim is superior or inferior to others? I'm completely missing that.

[rkmsuf]

Not that it matters but I haven't a clue what you people are arguing about.

Seems like it's stimulating you though so I guess that's a good thing.

[cartman]

Damn activist mods...

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Not that it matters but I haven't a clue what you people are arguing about.

Seems like it's stimulating you though so I guess that's a good thing.

rkmsuf: Here's the thread:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ad.php?t=50984

The title and the first line is what riled some folks up. HA got boxed. Othes disagree.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You really are going for the single day record, aren't you?

All that the "reaction to the rest" proves is that there's easy acceptance here of trolling as long as you pick the right targets.

Hell, there's regular and consistent trolling of several individual board members specifically on a daily basis -- trolling of them, I mean, not by them -- And not all of those who are blantantly trolled are particularly on my list of favorite people either, but that doesn't make it any less obvious when it happens. But they've been deemed okay to target by what passes for powers that be around here.

It is what it is, but damn, at least nut up & admit those biases.

In this case, HA was making a trolling post that would incite a reaction amongst a large enough portion of the board to create a thread that was merely negative, trolling on top of trolling, insults, etc. without any contructive conversation.

This is different in my mind than the trolling you're speaking of as it tends to to the entire breakdown of a thread from post 1.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I really, really cannot believe that people are complaining about HA's boxing. He should have been banned, not boxed.

That thread gives me braggggadocious deja vu.

yes yes yes

There's about 4-5 individuals whose bannings are loooooooooooong overdue. At least two of them have posted in this thread.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by cartman

Damn activist mods...

This is the first time in this thread that I laughed out loud.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

rkmsuf: Here's the thread:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ad.php?t=50984

The title and the first line is what riled some folks up. HA got boxed. Othes disagree.

I got the general issue. The minutia that this has taken on fascinates me.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I bet he's just pounding away at some poor Chipotle Southwest Cheese Steak sub with glee while constantly hitting the "refresh" button to see what post comes next.

Hockey Boy shoots...

...and SCORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRES!!!

[GoldenEagle]

In my opinion, JiMGA and Bubba Wheels are doing the same exact thing in this thread that HA did in his thread.

And we never got an explanation on why sov was boxed.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

In my opinion, JiMGA and Bubba Wheels are doing the same exact thing in this thread that HA did in his thread.

And we never got an explanation on why sov was boxed.

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ad.php?t=51077

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Not that it matters but I haven't a clue what you people are arguing about.

Seems like it's stimulating you though so I guess that's a good thing.

You said, she said, blah, blah, my First Amendment rights are being violated by not being able to be a racist prick on this board. I think that summarizes the past 10 pages.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

There's about 4-5 individuals whose bannings are loooooooooooong overdue. At least two of them have posted in this thread.

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner. I would imagine that everyone knows exactly which two people you are talking about.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

You said, she said, blah, blah, my First Ammendment rights are being violated by not being able to be a racist prick on this board. I think that summarizes the past 10 pages.

Thank you. I like the way you think.

FOFC is much more simple when we stick to disney rides and driving werewolves.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by wade moore

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ad.php?t=51077

If what sov was doing was trolling, then why hasn't BW been boxed? He's even admitted that he's trying to stir things up:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...5&postcount=32

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

As for you, JIMG, let's just say that the hammer is out and ready to pound.

There is not, as far as I know, any rule against criticism of moderators or their decision. It's an open thread, full of open discussion and open dissension.

I'm not the first to say that I think the creation of the Mod Squad was a bad idea, I'm not the first to say that I think an action they've taken is b.s. I didn't hesitate to say it to the guy who owns the freakin' board when he did it, so I see zero reason to hesitate to say it to any of his underlings when they do it. It has been accepted by the board owner and as far as I know he hasn't declared it unacceptable. But hey, maybe you've decided to change the rules and this is how you've decided to announce that.

If you truly feel you have just cause, then bring it ... but at least take advantage of the opportunity to set the new rules in place for everybody to follow. Or, if you're going to work from separate rules for separate people, then email them or PM them or somehow communicate individually with them what rules they'll be operating under in the future. Seems like it would save time & trouble in the long run.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner. I would imagine that everyone knows exactly which two people you are talking about.

Well, JimGa is NOT one of them. I know a lot of people don't like him, but I find him charming and kinda lovable. But otherwise it shouldn't be too tough to figure out.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

DING! DING! DING! We have a winner. I would imagine that everyone knows exactly which two people you are talking about.

twothree and pennywisesb?

Agreed. Those two just never stop causing problems.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

There is not, as far as I know, any rule against criticism of moderators or their decision. It's an open thread, full of open discussion and open dissension.

Quite correct. Keep it civil and we won't have an issue.