Alright boyz here we go again! (TPF download/first impressions thread)

[sabotai]

I'll laugh my ass of if Jason K. was the PBP beta tester. Considering how he praised it pre-release on his site and the PBP came out like total crap. That would too good.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by TroyF [b]I read bits and snippets of the thread. . . and then I got to this last page and had a heart attack.

Sounds like you & I were following the same system.

I'm glad I held off.

That'd be an understatement.

What worries me most is what sort of problems does this foreshadow for the next first release ... and the next ... and so on?

[MizzouRah]

Yep, pretty screens are just that, but I really wanted to see this game succeed, especially with SD and some others on the beta team.

I'm like most, I can wait to purchase as FOF has really taken my interest. With football going into the playoffs and baseball coming soon, I may actually wait to see what TPF2 has to offer.


Todd

[TroyF]

Originally posted by MizzouRah
Yep, pretty screens are just that, but I really wanted to see this game succeed, especially with SD and some others on the beta team.

I'm like most, I can wait to purchase as FOF has really taken my interest. With football going into the playoffs and baseball coming soon, I may actually wait to see what TPF2 has to offer.


Todd

I wish nothing but the best for .400 studios and Arlie. Yet I really have to question some of the "design decisions" that went into this game.

They held off the release for a month and yet didn't even have the BASIC rules of the game down on the initial release. Furthermore, I hadn't heard about this before the release. Again, fake kicks? Whoop de do. NO biggie.

2 point conversions and onside kicks? Would you make a hockey sim where it's game 7 of the finals, you are down by a goal, but the AI doesn't pull the goalie? Or how about a baseball game where you are down by a run, your slow slugger gets walked and the game doesn't have the capability of pinch running?

As I said, I probably will still buy this game. I play football games year round and there will be enough time to give it a shot. Yet .400 REALLY needs to get their act together on these initial releases. I'm happy they work their tails off to get patches out, but I can't be happy when they don't even get the basic elemants of the sport right on the initial release and don't warn me about it before hand.

[FloridaFringe]

Well all of the controversy has had an opposite effect on me. I have just purchased the game so that I can see what all of the hoopla is about for myself. Wish me luck I guess.

[Cringer]

Originally posted by TroyF
Again, fake kicks? Whoop de do. NO biggie.

I won the championship one year in FOF2004 on a fake punt going for a TD in the 3rd quarter. It was the last scroe of the game that put my team on top and my defense held them for the rest of the game. SO it has had an impact for me and i think it is a big deal, not huge, but still imporant.

[yabanci]

I just read a thread over at the TPF forums indicating that there is no trading among AI teams in the game, but it might be added in a "future patch." No trading in pro football? That's just unbelieveable to me.

[Balldog]

It looks like I maybe trying to get a refund.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally posted by yabanci
I just read a thread over at the TPF forums indicating that there is no trading among AI teams in the game, but it might be added in a "future patch." No trading in pro football? That's just unbelieveable to me.

I agree. I was upset the other day when I posted I was considering returning the game because of some of the issues on their forum. However, this is likely the final straw for me. I'm pretty sure I will be returning the game tomorrow as I just can't fathom some of these omissions.

[yabanci]

I already emailed Viatech for the return. I'll consider buying it again when they finish it. What's really amazing is there has to be a debate about this. People actually post messages saying things like, "I think trading makes the game more challenging and is something that should be added." The idea of having to put onside kicks and trading on your "wish list" for a football sim that was released with so much hype is flabbergasting to me.

[The_herd]

This is certainly disappointing. I've been supporting TPF since it was released, recommending everyone give a shot when the demo comes out. Telling everyone about its strengths and telling them any weaknesses will be fixed within a few weeks. But I have to admit, its getting harder and harder to recommend it at this stage.

I can overlook onside kicks and 2-point conversions because they are rare in football today and I don't coach the games so I can overlook them not happening. However, draft day trading is an intregal part of today's game. Watching a team try and work its way up the draft board to get the QB they need to complete the puzzle is one of the great parts of the GM side of Pro Football. This is the most disappointing omission I've seen reported.

I will keep my copy, mostly because I really believe Arlie will make this a classic in the same way the 1st FOF is. But I really can't say I'm a satisfied customer anymore. I will continue to support TPF and .400, but this is a company that is dire need of a wake up call. Get the damn basics right before even thinking about releasing a game. You can't just put a game out on a certain date to please the fanboys. They are a very small percentage of the people that buy games. The fanboys will buy it regardless, you're losing the cusomers that are looking for a good game, not the ones obsessed with any game you make. If you put a solid, complete game out, everything will take care of itself, you can count on it.

[miked]

Has it been confirmed by the developers that there is no AI trading? I was under the impression that is was just like 3 people who posted they hadn't seen any trades and would like to have it patched...nothing from the developers saying that it's not in there and needs to be patched. I don't own the game, I keep telling myself I will buy it when they iron everything out, but I'm starting to lose faith in the timeliness of this happening...

[Eaglesfan27]

Well, I'm one of the those people who has tried to get into the game and in 8 seasons I haven't seen a single AI initiated trade. If it is there (which is looking more unlikely) it is WAY too rare.

[yabanci]

Originally posted by miked
Has it been confirmed by the developers that there is no AI trading? I was under the impression that is was just like 3 people who posted they hadn't seen any trades and would like to have it patched...nothing from the developers saying that it's not in there and needs to be patched. I don't own the game, I keep telling myself I will buy it when they iron everything out, but I'm starting to lose faith in the timeliness of this happening...

Here is what someone posted over there:

"I'm not sure it is a matter of believing or not. Nobody has posted to-date that they have seen a trade between computer teams or an offer made to a human. In my own experience, I have simmed 80+ seasons and have never seen it happen. For whatever reason, it doesn't exist. Hopefully it will be added later."

[miked]

Yeah....I gotta stop running back and forth

[Buccaneer]

Originally posted by The_herd
This is certainly disappointing. I've been supporting TPF since it was released, recommending everyone give a shot when the demo comes out. Telling everyone about its strengths and telling them any weaknesses will be fixed within a few weeks. But I have to admit, its getting harder and harder to recommend it at this stage.

I can overlook onside kicks and 2-point conversions because they are rare in football today and I don't coach the games so I can overlook them not happening. However, draft day trading is an intregal part of today's game. Watching a team try and work its way up the draft board to get the QB they need to complete the puzzle is one of the great parts of the GM side of Pro Football. This is the most disappointing omission I've seen reported.

I will keep my copy, mostly because I really believe Arlie will make this a classic in the same way the 1st FOF is. But I really can't say I'm a satisfied customer anymore. I will continue to support TPF and .400, but this is a company that is dire need of a wake up call. Get the damn basics right before even thinking about releasing a game. You can't just put a game out on a certain date to please the fanboys. They are a very small percentage of the people that buy games. The fanboys will buy it regardless, you're losing the cusomers that are looking for a good game, not the ones obsessed with any game you make. If you put a solid, complete game out, everything will take care of itself, you can count on it.

I have to agree.

[Balldog]

I've applied for my refund. I did not pay $34.95 to be pretty much a beta tester.

[Wasabiak]

How about the guy that said he was returning his copy of the game, calling it "Partial Pro Football"? Heheh

Edit--Nice one Yabanci

[astralhaze]

Wow. This defies explanation. I don't think there is any way to wriggle out of this one.

[yabanci]

maybe we should start referring to it as PPF for the time being.

[sabotai]

But I really can't say I'm a satisfied customer anymore. I will continue to support TPF and .400, but this is a company that is dire need of a wake up call.

How is .400 going to get that wake up call if dissatisfied customers like yourself do not request a refund? I understand wanting to support them, and I know they need funds to continue their games, but at the same time, why would they change their ways if people just keep buying their games, even if it is to support them or a promise of a better game in the future?

Not trying to change your mind, I'm just wondering what the reasoning is.

[yabanci]

what's amazing is it took a week for this to really get out.

[Havok]

dam dam dam!!

I keep "Almost" buying this game then i see another post about something else very basic left out of the game.

very very disappointing

[Deattribution]

This all makes me wonder exactly was planning to be released over a month ago before it was held off for 'additional features'.

[Richards]

Originally posted by yabanci
what's amazing is it took a week for this to really get out.

Actually, I'm not really amazed. I really want to like this game. But in this situation, it's like peeling back layers of missing features and bugs only to find more missing features and bugs.

[Karim]

Exactly. The longer you play and deeper you look, the more disappointed you become.

[The_herd]

Originally posted by sabotai
How is .400 going to get that wake up call if dissatisfied customers like yourself do not request a refund? I understand wanting to support them, and I know they need funds to continue their games, but at the same time, why would they change their ways if people just keep buying their games, even if it is to support them or a promise of a better game in the future?

Not trying to change your mind, I'm just wondering what the reasoning is.

There really is no reasoning, other than I'm putting my faith in Arlie on this one. Its almost sad, because this game is addictively fun sometimes (I could spend hours with the draft and contract negotiations alone), but as you get deeper, you just keep saying to yourself, "I guess that will be in a later patch". I'm getting tired of people making excuses for .400 and people saying, "It will be patched, just give them some time". All I want to do is play this incredible game that everyone keeps promising this will turn out to be.

I realize that the past couple posts I've made on this haven't been the most constructive, but you reach a point in your frustration when you have to let the people responsible for it know.

[Buccaneer]

(I could spend hours with the draft and contract negotiations alone),

To me, that is almost worth the price by itself. But it still has to mean something and it has to work in conjunction with other GM features to complete the picture.

I really wish someone would make a great immersive NFL GM game instead of trying to do too much of everything. That goes for Solecismic (no immersion) as well as .400 (not even close to completion). My prediction for TPF will be that it won't be a couple of patches but into the next version at least. That means deep into next year.

[MizzouRah]

I really wish someone would make a great immersive NFL GM game instead of trying to do too much of everything. That goes for Solecismic (no immersion)

That's a matter of opinion, I have really been able to get into FOF2k4 (the immersion is bigger because I import teams from my TCY career), some can't. I'm also more immersed in FBCB than TDCB.


Todd

[The_herd]

To give you an idea of how fun the draft can be, I'm picking 6th in my 1st draft with the Bears. Our needs are OLB, OT, and OG. Clearly our main weakness is the OL. The problem is, there are no linemen worthy of a #6 pick. The mock draft runs and projects me to take a OLB from Kansas State named Joe Dawson with our pick. Looks like he has the potential to be an All-pro from looking at him, the scouting report gushes over his character, leadership, and how hard he plays. The only knock on him is, "he doesn't take on blocks very well". That was enough for me, I was set on taking the linebacker that we would build our defense around for the next 10 seasons.

The draft starts and the top pick by Philly is a big, physical corner from Pittsburg. The 2nd pick belongs to Miami, they have a big need at RB, but the top RB in the draft is coming off of a knee injury. Sure enough, they pass on him and grab Joe Dawson. Syd Nyquist of course can't say enough good things about the kid, and I'm left sorely disappointed and wondering who in the hell I'm going to draft.

After Baltimore snags the injured RB from WVU, Green Bay grabs a good looking DE (turned out to be a bust), and Cincinnati grabs the MLB I had targeted after Dawson was picked. I'm stuck looking at the board and realize something. The best player in the draft according to my scouts and .400's draft experts is still on the board. A 6-6 215lb. WR from USC named Greg Pugh. I'm stunned, so I pull up his player card and realize why he had slipped to #6. He apparently had some off the field issues and people question his work ethic and route running. However, the praise every other part of his game, he has 4.3 speed, gets off the jam well, and is simply lableled a playmaker. Randy Moss immediately comes to mind.

I study the draft board for what seems like forever, I can't find a player that would likely go in the next 10 picks that I'm interested in or fills a need. I'm inching closer and closer to pulling the trigger and just taking Pugh, but I don't want my 1st pick to be a bust because of character issues. After much deliberation, I finally close my eyes and make the pick. Syd Nyquist surprisingly applauds the pick, and I feel a bit better about it for some reason.

After training camp Greg Pugh is rated 3.5* out of 5*, but he has low Clutch and loyalty and High character risk and greed. As expected though, he comes out and puts up 61 catches for 995 yards and 7 TDs in only 13 starts. And although I have no problems with him, I'm always wondering when he's going to screw up and make me look like an idiot.

Its things like this that give the game so much potential. To think, this is the 1st draft pick I ever made. I didn't even get into the problems I had signing my 2nd rounder, an OLB projected to go in the 1st round, but amazingly had slipped down to me.

[Fonzie]

I need to stop following this thread. It's becoming a bit too much like rubbernecking at the scene of an accident.

Which makes me feel guilty.

[sabotai]

the_herd, I think you owe ol' SkyDog one huge "thank you" for the draft being good.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by sabotai
the_herd, I think you owe ol' SkyDog one huge "thank you" for the draft being good.

Don't forget, guys, that I didn't write a single line of code. I just looked at what was there and made suggestions to improve it. The AI's assessing of its needs hasn't changed much (to my knowledge) since the earliest versions of the draft. There were some changes in the draft that my input had something to do with, but most of them were (at least to me) pretty obvious things such as certain positions having too much talent every year.

[yabanci]

but were there ever any draft day trades? I just keep thinking this can't be true.

[Bee]

The onside kicks, 2-pt conversions, fake kick/punts, etc are all things that I'd like to see but aren't game killers for me. The no AI trades definitely is. I remember asking almost a year ago about this specific item and was told it would definitely be in the game including draft day trade offers from the computer controlled teams. I hope this is just a bug and not an actual missing feature. Until this is addressed, I'm not the least bit interested in spending my money on a partial football sim.

[Logan]

Originally posted by yabanci
but were there ever any draft day trades? I just keep thinking this can't be true.

I could have SWORN that in the one draft I had, a team traded up to the #2 pick. Unfortunately, I've already returned it so I can't check on this.

[The_herd]

Originally posted by Logan
I could have SWORN that in the one draft I had, a team traded up to the #2 pick. Unfortunately, I've already returned it so I can't check on this.

If I get some time later I'm going to watch several drafts and hope against hope that trades just aren't getting logged in the transactions page.

[The_herd]

Dola

I had a career saved at a draft, so I fired it up and started looking at the players in the pool. The #3 player on my board was a DE from a samll school named Shippensburg, PA., so I decided to take a peak at him to read the scouting report one of his weaknesses was:

Has a small bubble butt.

What the hell am I paying my scout to do? I send him to PA to check out a player and apparently he does so literally.

[FargoFreez aka fof playa]

Originally posted by The_herd
What the hell am I paying my scout to do? I send him to PA to check out a player and apparently he does so literally.

Hmmm. Is anyone of these guys your scout??

[Capital]

I agree that the AI trades should be in the game and I always limit myself to at most 2 trades a year (FOF or TPF). Football is just not like other sports in that only a handful of trades happen each year (I'm not including draft day trades where many happen). Also, trades just don't happen during the year in football. I could be wrong, but I don't think that any trades occured this year. If we could only have FOF with TPF presentation, now that would be a game.

[The_herd]

Can someone tell me how to post a screen shot of TPF, from an idiots standpoint. I really have absolutely no idea how to.

Thanks.

[Vikings13]

Originally posted by Fonzie
I need to stop following this thread. It's becoming a bit too much like rubbernecking at the scene of an accident.

Can we reopen the Quote of the Moment feature for this one?

[The_herd]

Some info posted by Arlie on version 1.2.

In addition to any bugs reported in the Tech support section, the following will also be in the 1.2 update:

1. onside kicks, 2 point conversions, fake punts and fake FGs will all be available for the AI and user to call in the game.

2. I will do some stat tweaks to get individual leaders more inline with the current pro numbers. Most of this involves knocking down catches by RBs and FBs, increasing catches by TEs and carries by FBs, increasing the injury chances for QBs and getting tackles more inline. I will also continue to monitor all the great research done by you guys as well. Thanks for all your help here.

3. Add in one time in the season where AI-AI deals will be made. This will probably occur in the week prior to the draft as teams position themselves to fill their needs.

4. Check out the RFA signing logic and a few other odds and ends on free agency.

I will also take a look at the PBP and try and clean up some of the phrases and outcomes.

I also want to make on comment on the engine. Some of you have been stating that any season should be within 2-3% of all NFL 2002 stats in any season. And while accuracy is a prime concern of mine as well, TPF isn't a 2002 replay game. Like the real NFL, there will be an "ebb and flow" to stats as you sim out. My goal is that no main stat should deviate more than 10% from the NFL numbers, but some variance will occur. Just compare stats in 1990 to stats in 2003 for the real NFL. I expect there will be some small shifts in stat values as seasons go on. This will be based primarily on the talent in the league at certain positions and the philosophies of the current head coaches. But, again, there should still be a fairly tight 7-10% max variance on the main numbers even in these periods.

Thanks again and I will get you guys and ETA on this patch once a get a couple more days into it.

Arlie

[Buckner]

Well I am no FoF fanboy by any stretch, as FoF2004 is my first purchase but I am very happy with it thus far and I still have a question for those that bought TPF:

Why does this game show more potential than FoF? Is it solely because of the flashier interface and the draft day stuff? I don't get it, I guess, I mean you have a pretty detailed sim in FoF so why the need for another football sim? Is it just that you guys have played so much FoF that you're after something new?

Mike

[Antmeister]

Originally posted by The_herd

3. Add in one time in the season where AI-AI deals will be made. This will probably occur in the week prior to the draft as teams position themselves to fill their needs.

While this may be a step, this has become frustrating knowing that I still can't trade during the draft and it seems unfair that I can trade at any point before the deadline and the computer would do nothing to upgrade.

While I will continue to support this game, I will probably shelf (well maybe not shelf since I don't have the CD, but still....) it until it is at least in par with professional football. Did you also notice that there is still no option for accepting/declining penalties?

I think I may have learned my lesson however. I shall wait a good month or two of release of the game before I purchase it. While a lot of people talked about the TDCB incident (which I have purchased as well) at least it was made playable fairly quick. This game just seems to be a long way from being totally patched up. Or maybe I am just being overly pessimistic...who knows?

The one thing that is good that happened at the .400 boards is that there is less flaming as people are coming to a realization that there are flaws that they all wish to have rectified.

[Sidhe]

Maybe Jim will think about adding some more of the immersive stuff a lot of people liked about TPF, but do it his way. I'd never expect to see a "Syd" character or a newscast, but there must be some way he could make the players come just a bit more alive.

Really, FOF2k4 is just a smidgeon from perfect, and the little way it has to go, as far as I'm concerned, has to do with presentation and the ability to get lost in it.

TPF is great at that part of it, but just doesn't come close to feeling like a real NFL sim. (I don't know this directly, since I could never get through the draft in my copy before I returned it, but I think it's a reasonable statement based on what I've been reading.)

Anyway, I'm glad people want to make football sims. I hope they keep at it.

[KWhit]

I've read some things at that other board detailing some flaws in the AI clock management.

Things like:
"I'm playing Cleveland up 20-17 with less than a minute to go. They get a 4tn and 8 on my 15 yard line with a chance to tie the game and send it into OT and they go for the first down."

and:
"Against the computer they were down 24-14 with under 3 minutes to go and after I had punted them to the 4 yard line they ran the ball on 3 consecutive plays for a total of 4 yards and using up a full minute. Then they punted to me."

Anyone else see these sorts of problems?

[General Mike]

Originally posted by The_herd
Can someone tell me how to post a screen shot of TPF, from an idiots standpoint. I really have absolutely no idea how to.

Thanks.

Hit the print screen button. This will create a file in the clipboard, but it will be pretty big (over 1MB). Next open Paint or Photoshop or whatever program you like, and hit the paste button. Then save as jpeg, which should shrink the file size down considerably.

[GabeRivers]

I can understand the frustrations that are being expressed over the lack of AI trading in TPF. I'm greatly bothered by it myself.

But it leaves me wondering: what does FOF do regarding AI trading? When I last played FOF, I was at the start of a new season, so I have no recent transactions page to review -- but I simply don't recall seeing AI teams making trades with each other, nor do I recall ever seeing them trading draft picks at the onset or during the draft in order to better position themselves. Do they?

If they do in FOF, that's great. If they don't, then it doesn't seem quite fair to bash one game on this issue and not the other.

[yabanci]

yes they make trades in FOF, including pretty aggressive draft day trading sometimes. FOF even had trading in its first edition.