Jesus is Love. Allah is Not.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Here is a site comparing the Karan to the Bible. Its a good place to start.

hxxp://www.dianedew.com/islam.htm

Jesus has one law. That law is Love. Its really that simple. If you Love others and serve others, you are being Christ-like. God wants us to be like Jesus Christ.

Allah is not about Love. Allah wants to win. Allah wants a man of Islam to be a dominant being over all others. And if it takes killing an unbeliever, so be it. If you die killing an unbeliever you go to the garden of paradise.

These are opposing views and shows the reason for conflict in the Middle East as well as their hatred for us.

This all sounds like you believe that Allah exists.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

You BEST enjoy it, 'cause you're going to BURN, plaid hater!

I'm going to Booo-urns' mansion? Woohoo!

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by tarcone

But the Bible says to forgive your enemies.

Honestly, if someone tried to kill you because of your religion, would you forgive them?

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Actually, from what I remember, C.S. Lewis was originally Catholic and converted to Anglicism, which greatly upset J.R.R. Tolkien. I don't recall anything about his being atheist.

I could be wrong, though.

Seriously. The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe is just Christian preaching to kids, ffs!

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Why try and help others see the light? Because thats what Jesus wants.

If Jesus wants you to help others see the light, why are you praying for him to do it for you?

[MrDNA]

So I may be getting off topic by getting back on topic, but what the heck does it mean to say "Jesus is love." I would understand "Jesus is all about love," or "Jesus is pro-love," or even just "Jesus loves," but to give a one-to-one correlation with isjust confuses me. Is it just a rhetorical device, or does it mean something actually different than the other three examples I cited? And if anyone other than tarcone wants to answer this, please do as I haven't been able to follow a lot of what he's said in this thread.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by MrDNA

So I may be getting off topic by getting back on topic, but what the heck does it mean to say "Jesus is love." I would understand "Jesus is all about love," or "Jesus is pro-love," or even just "Jesus loves," but to give a one-to-one correlation with isjust confuses me. Is it just a rhetorical device, or does it mean something actually different than the other three examples I cited? And if anyone other than tarcone wants to answer this, please do as I haven't been able to follow a lot of what he's said in this thread.

Jesus is now man, God, and an emotion.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Jesus is now man, God, and an emotion.

And they thought Britney Spears was a triple threat...

[Klinglerware]

Or was that Justin Timberlake?

[Kodos]

Oops!... I rose from the dead.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by MrDNA

So I may be getting off topic by getting back on topic, but what the heck does it mean to say "Jesus is love." I would understand "Jesus is all about love," or "Jesus is pro-love," or even just "Jesus loves," but to give a one-to-one correlation with isjust confuses me. Is it just a rhetorical device, or does it mean something actually different than the other three examples I cited? And if anyone other than tarcone wants to answer this, please do as I haven't been able to follow a lot of what he's said in this thread.

I guess it's just a question of semantics. However, according to the New Testament, when Jesus preached he taught about love above all things. Also, he died on the cross because of his love for humanity. I guess from those things it's a short walk from "Jesus is all about love" to "Jesus is love".

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

To provide one serious post to this thread.

I have no problems with religious people/teachings in general. The Bible and other assorted religious writings are good guidelines for treating people with kindness and understanding....when taken not at face value. It's the underlying meaning in those books that are important.

I have problems with the hypocrisy of hard line organized religion and their followers telling me that I'm a horrible person/going to hell/condemned to eat nothing but fried yak for all eternity because I don't believe exactly as they do.

Hey, I hear ya. I have problems with being referred to as a nut-job and a hypocrite but I'll take it.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Im not talking down. I am learning and trying to be Christ-like. And I fail at that because I am human. But this has been a great time and I am learning a lot.

Great excuse...

[SteveMax58]

Wow...this got to 6 pages quickly.

[fantom1979]

This is all fine and dandy, unless your Gay. Then no one loves you.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by fantom1979

This is all fine and dandy, unless your Gay. Then no one loves you.

I know you're having a good time and trying to bait here, so I'll take the bait. God loves all humans. He doesn't love homosexuals any less than others, but he does hate the sin. Just because others who proclaim to be Christians preach hatred towards others doesn't mean it's right.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Aren't gay people some of the dandiest people we have?

[cartman]

Originally Posted by fantom1979

This is all fine and dandy, unless your Gay. Then no one loves you.

Yeah, Usain Bolt really made us forget about him.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Hey, I hear ya. I have problems with being referred to as a nut-job and a hypocrite but I'll take it.

Well, that depends. Schoolgirl plaid or french maid?

And I prolly shouldn't have quoted you, it was more directed to the thread in general, not you in particular.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I'm going to Booo-urns' mansion? Woohoo!

Release the hounds!

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I know you're having a good time and trying to bait here, so I'll take the bait. God loves all humans. He doesn't love homosexuals any less than others, but he does hate the sin. Just because others who proclaim to be Christians preach hatred towards others doesn't mean it's right.

The odd thing about that is the main verse from the New Testament that Christians use to be bigoted toward homosexuals is one that lists a ton of other sins that more or less encompass the entire population.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The odd thing about that is the main verse from the New Testament that Christians use to be bigoted toward homosexuals is one that lists a ton of other sins that more or less encompass the entire population.

Everybody's a sinner, if I understand it correctly. Some have decided being gay is the worst sin and that gay people are evil, but no matter what you think of Christanity, that ain't Christanity. Jesus would say something about casting the first stone if you're so perfect.

[Oilers9911]

So the only God is YOUR God and anyone that worships another God is an unbeliever and needs to be prayed for? Yeah, ok.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Everybody's a sinner, if I understand it correctly. Some have decided being gay is the worst sin and that gay people are evil, but no matter what you think of Christanity, that ain't Christanity. Jesus would say something about casting the first stone if you're so perfect.

I'm just saying it's odd how the Bible lists a bunch of things in a verse that are bad. But people of faith only really focus on one of those things and ignore the rest. Makes me think that the hatred toward homosexuals is not because of their religion, but other deep seated reasons (perhaps self-hatred of own homosexual feelings).

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

But people of faith only really focus on one of those things and ignore the rest. Makes me think that the hatred toward homosexuals is not because of their religion, but other deep seated reasons (perhaps self-hatred of own homosexual feelings).

Not at all fair. Maybe the "people of faith" that make the most noise, that are covered by the news, but certainly not people of faith in general. The Lutheran religion has gay pastors for cying out loud. They vary in the degree of openesses, but I went to church for 20 years, across 3-5 churches, and I never once heard an anti-gay comment. It was a sin no worse and no less forgiveable than other sexual indescretions.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Not at all fair. Maybe the "people of faith" that make the most noise, that are covered by the news, but certainly not people of faith in general. The Lutheran religion has gay pastors for cying out loud.

So you're saying that Christianity in this country is by in large supportive of homosexuality? That the anger towards them must be coming from those bigoted Atheists. That all the major Christian groups that oppose it and speak out against it are on the fringe.

[fantom1979]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I know you're having a good time and trying to bait here, so I'll take the bait. God loves all humans. He doesn't love homosexuals any less than others, but he does hate the sin. Just because others who proclaim to be Christians preach hatred towards others doesn't mean it's right.

I agree with you 100% here, and yes I was trying to stir up trouble. I am not gay, but I do understand many of their group causes. I always believed that God and Jesus accepts all, forgives all, and loves all...... Unfortunately, many of Jesus' followers, would rather pull out passages from the Old Testament (Leviticus 20:13) in this situation.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Bonegavel

I was raised Baptist and they believe that you have to accept Jesus in your heart and then you are written in the book of life and that is how you get to heaven. You can do anything you want but as long as you get your name in that book by accepting Jesus into your heart you are good-to-go.

For those that haven't been in the cult, you have to understand that the original poster is taking all the slings and arrows thrown at him in this thread with pride. They feel they are more christ-like when they are persecuted for their beliefs. You are only feeding the beast with your arguments. Logic isn't part of religion. In fact, you have to toss it out.

God supposedly gave us these brains that we are being punished for using. If he wants sheep to follow him, well, there are plenty of actual sheep that he created (though I think we domesticate them) and he can have them.

And yes, if God knows all (which the bible says he does) he knew from the moment of creation if you were going to heaven or hell. He knew that the snake would temp eve. He knew eve would eat the fruit. He knew men would be wicked and need to be submerged in water. He knew Lot would offer up his daughters to the crowd in exchange for the safety of his guests. He knew Rome would be in control of Israel and would crucify his kid (which is actually himself?). He knew I'd write this post. He knows who is going to win the powerball (which is over 200 million!). He knows how many children are being abused this very moment. He also knows that I'm a helluva good guy and should be happy that I don't need him because I am mentally stable and my life is good and fulfilling.

+100 you are awesome.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So you're saying that Christianity in this country is by in large supportive of homosexuality? That the anger towards them must be coming from those bigoted Atheists. That all the major Christian groups that oppose it and speak out against it are on the fringe.

All I can tell you is that I spent years going to church, I'm the son of a Lutheran pastor, the nephew of another Luthern pastor, a friend of several other pastors, have been to several protestan churches, and I've never witnessed this gay bashing that you claim everyone of faith has. Including at the churches themselves, or in the homes of the members of the church and church leaders. Maybe my experience is unique and every other church in the world except the one I grew up in wants to kill gay people. I don't want to get in another tiring discussion of how big the fringe is, I have no idea, and neither do you. I wouldn't go to a church where the sermon ranted about gay people, so it just doesn't matter. The size of the fringe has no relevance on what I'm saying here.

You have all these ideas about how evil and stupid religious people are, and I just don't find that anyone you rant about is true with regard to my own experience. Like I said, maybe I'm unique, but it's tiring to hear you generalize and insult people that I know as good, intelligent, caring, and charitable.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by fantom1979

This is all fine and dandy, unless your Gay. Then no one loves you.

I love the gay people! I'm just not gay...

[Noop]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

I love the gay people! I'm just not gay...

What if you're gay for Jesus?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

All I can tell you is that I spent years going to church, I'm the son of a Lutheran pastor, the nephew of another Luthern pastor, a friend of several other pastors, have been to several protestan churches, and I've never witnessed this gay bashing that you claim everyone of faith has. Including at the churches themselves, or in the homes of the members of the church and church leaders. Maybe my experience is unique and every other church in the world except the one I grew up in wants to kill gay people. I don't want to get in another tiring discussion of how big the fringe is, I have no idea, and neither do you.

You have all these ideas about how evil and stupid religious people are, and I just don't find that anyone you rant about is true with regard to my own experience. Like I said, maybe I'm unique, but it's tiring to hear you generalize and insult people that I know as good, intelligent, caring, and charitable.

Saying that the major Christian groups in this country have been vehemently opposed to many gay rights is not "an idea I have". It's a fact. I can name you all the top ones that pushed hard against the proposition in California as well as others throughout the country. Top religious leaders in this country have spoken out against homosexuality as well as blamed them for disasters such as Katrina and 9/11.

I don't have an idea of anything. You are the one who tries to play revisionist history. All you have to say is "yeah, there are a lot of people in the Christian movement who are bigots. I'm not one of them and the people I grew up with are not either". You're trying to portray Christians as having no role in bigotry toward homosexuals in this country when in fact they are the largest group opposing any progress on that front. That doesn't mean they are all bigots, but many of them are.

[Pumpy Tudors]

WOW HAVEN'T HEARD ANY OF THIS STUFF EVER ON THE INTERNET BEFORE

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You're trying to portray Christians as having no role in bigotry toward homosexuals in this country when in fact they are the largest group opposing any progress on that front.

Where did I say that? Seriously, did you read my post? I SPECIFICALLY limited my observation to my experience, and refused to get in a debate with you about the size of the fringe. I'm not a part of the fringe, you're not a part of fringe, so it's not a relevant part of the discussion. I wasn't speaking about the fringe or what they do. I was speaking about myself. You made rainmaker-syle generalizations about a group, and I pointed out that my experiences were different.

You're absolutely a bigot, blinded by hate. You're absolutely as bad as any gay-basher. To you, I'm "one of those people", defending a fringe, when I specifically didn't. You can't tell the difference because you're so overwhelmed by hate.

My experience growing up in church was very positive. There wasn't any hate. It's too bad there's hate other places. I don't support it, I'm not responsible for it, I don't participate in it.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

WOW HAVEN'T HEARD ANY OF THIS STUFF EVER ON THE INTERNET BEFORE

This Pumpy schtick, on the other hand - COMPLETELY fresh.

[Jughead Spock]

Pumpy schtick is kinda fun to say.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

If Bin Laden found Jesus, could we still kill him?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Where did I say that? Seriously, did you read my post? I SPECIFICALLY limited my observation to my experience, and refused to get in a debate with you about the size of the fringe. I'm not a part of the fringe, you're not a part of fringe, so it's not a relevant part of the discussion. I wasn't speaking about the fringe or what they do. I was speaking about myself. You made rainmaker-syle generalizations about a group, and I pointed out that my experiences were different.

You're absolutely a bigot, blinded by hate. You're absolutely as bad as any gay-basher. To you, I'm "one of those people", defending a fringe, when I specifically didn't. You can't tell the difference because you're so overwhelmed by hate.

You said people of faith "in general" are not like that. That's not saying "people I know", it's saying "in general".

I am a bigot for pointing out that religious groups have been heavily behind gay bigotry in this country. I am a bigot for pointing out that religious groups heavily supported Prop 8 and put a lot of money into ensuring it wouldn't pass. I also feel that the KKK is a bad organization that is racist, so I'm guessing by your standards I'm a racist as well.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by molson

This Pumpy schtick, on the other hand - COMPLETELY fresh.

guess i'm done here

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by molson

Not at all fair. Maybe the "people of faith" that make the most noise, that are covered by the news, but certainly not people of faith in general. The Lutheran religion has gay pastors for cying out loud. They vary in the degree of openesses, but I went to church for 20 years, across 3-5 churches, and I never once heard an anti-gay comment. It was a sin no worse and no less forgiveable than other sexual indescretions.

I think this sort of thing varies hugely from area to area and also church to church.

In Europe Christianity has been 'losing ground' for years and has become very flexible with regards to what some other areas would consider very poor behaviour - ie. female and gay clergy, clergy who admit they don't believe in God etc.

This is basically Christianity taking a similar approach in the modern day to what it did during the earlier church - that is realising that to survive and flourish it needs to integrate within the society it finds itself.

In early days this was by adopting pagan festivals and rituals within the church itself (hence Easter, celebrating Jesus's birthday etc.) even the medieval representation of the Devil was a means to subvert religions which had a prior hold on the populace.

Today the approach taken is for the church to become more accepting of certain aspects where society itself has changed (ie. in earlier times religions saw 'gay' people as bad because having kids was vital to your race prospering, today thats not an issue. Again in earlier times women were treated lesser to men, hence no women priests - again today this isn't the case).

Now whether you believe its right or wrong for a religion to adapt and change is a personal take - I personally think its fine for them to do so, after all if people are honest about it there isn't one perfect christian in the world today all of them pick and choose the aspects of the bible they believe are acceptable and follow them, ignoring he more suspect or conflicting ones.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You said people of faith "in general" are not like that. That's not saying "people I know", it's saying "in general".

I am a bigot for pointing out that religious groups have been heavily behind gay bigotry in this country. I am a bigot for pointing out that religious groups heavily supported Prop 8 and put a lot of money into ensuring it wouldn't pass. I also feel that the KKK is a bad organization that is racist, so I'm guessing by your standards I'm a racist as well.

You speak in these insanely broad strokes. You do it in every single thread I read where you are involved. You judge everything based upon what you see in the media especially.

Here's my viewpoint on homosexuality and I believe of the vast majority of Christians...

Being gay is a sin toward God. I am not the judge that will condemn this person because I am not without sin. I don't believe they should be afforded marriage sacraments but believe they should receive protection under United States Law.

The problem is, that simply doesn't sell in today's media.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Noop

What if you're gay for Jesus?

Well I love Jesus too. It's those ignorant souls that take things too literal that I question.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You said people of faith "in general" are not like that. That's not saying "people I know", it's saying "in general".

I am a bigot for pointing out that religious groups have been heavily behind gay bigotry in this country. I am a bigot for pointing out that religious groups heavily supported Prop 8 and put a lot of money into ensuring it wouldn't pass. I also feel that the KKK is a bad organization that is racist, so I'm guessing by your standards I'm a racist as well.

That actually sums up pretty well why you're a bigot. You view "religion", like the "KKK", as one people, having one opinion, that you've grouped together to feel superior to. You assign undesirable traits to an entire group of people to invalidate them, and disregard their individual characteristics, EVEN when the individuals express contrary opinions to those that you've labeled them with. When I expressed specific disagreement with your labeling, you accused me of defending those with the undesirable trait!

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by rowech

You speak in these insanely broad strokes. You do it in every single thread I read where you are involved. You judge everything based upon what you see in the media especially.

Here's my viewpoint on homosexuality and I believe of the vast majority of Christians...

Being gay is a sin toward God. I am not the judge that will condemn this person because I am not without sin. I don't believe they should be afforded marriage sacraments but believe they should receive protection under United States Law.

The problem is, that simply doesn't sell in today's media.

I believe that is a bigoted view. No different to me than when we told blacks they couldn't marry whites. In fact, you will find much of the same rhetoric being used now that you heard back then (destroyed the family, etc).

[DanGarion]

Let's do a little translation experiment and see what we come up with from the original post. Because regardless of translation the end result should be true... according to those that are in the know...

English
Here is a site comparing the Karan to the Bible. Its a good place to start.
hxxp://www.dianedew.com/islam.htm
Jesus has one law. That law is Love. Its really that simple. If you Love others and serve others, you are being Christ-like. God wants us to be like Jesus Christ.
Allah is not about Love. Allah wants to win. Allah wants a man of Islam to be a dominant being over all others. And if it takes killing an unbeliever, so be it. If you die killing an unbeliever you go to the garden of paradise.
These are opposing views and shows the reason for conflict in the Middle East as well as their hatred for us.

Now I've translated it from English to Arabic to Hebrew to French and then lastly back to English

Karan here to compare the position of the Bible. For a good starting point.
hxxp: / / A Love I Could Not Deny, by Diane Dew / islam.htm
Jesus, one rule. This law is love. The fact is simple. If you love others, serve others, or to be like Jesus. God wants us to be like Jesus.
God does not like. God and want to win. God wants man that Islam is dominant, all others. If the ransom had been killed, either. If you die killing the infidel, she studied paradise.
These opposing points of view and displays the result of the conflict in the Middle East, as well as hatred for us.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by molson

That actually sums up pretty well why you're a bigot. You view "religion", like the "KKK", as one people, having one opinion, that you've grouped together to feel superior to. You assign undesirable traits to an entire group of people to invalidate them, and disregard their individual characteristics, EVEN when the individuals express contrary opinions to those that you've labeled them with.

But in his defense a religion is a group of people who share largely the same beliefs and tenets.

If I indicate I'm a Brighton Soccer fan then people will expect me to act like one, ie. cheer for that team during matches, if I don't follow those actions then they will doubt I am one.

For instance many people would debate whether I'm a Christian despite me considering myself one - why you ask? .... because I don't believe the bible is the word of God, I think its a book which has some very good stuff in it, but its also heavily political propoganda and lifestyle advice for people who lived thousands of years ago and imho definitely not written by God.

That difference of opinion would be enough to get me strange looks at the very least from a lot of Christian church goers in Florida (in England not so much, heck clergy in England sometimes admit they don't believe in God ).

Now if that stance makes you consider me 'not a christian' then perhaps 'rainmaker' views you in a similar manner to how you view me because your viewpoint on other 'Christian' matters doesn't correspond closely enough to the mainstream 'common' christian viewpoint.

(ie. I don't think he's being biggotted, he's just indicating that the majority of christian churches appear to have a problem with homosexuals and has given evidence as to why he believes this is the care - all of which appears to have been done fairly reasonably imho)

[rowech]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I believe that is a bigoted view. No different to me than when we told blacks they couldn't marry whites. In fact, you will find much of the same rhetoric being used now that you heard back then (destroyed the family, etc).

Because my views don't agree with yours? Do I have hatred or intolerance in any of my views? No. Do I believe marriage is a Religious sacrament given to God for a man and a woman? Yes. Do I belive homosexuals should be allowed to have common rights under the eyes of the United Stats Constitution? Yes.

You may not agree with my views but they are hardly bigoted.

[stevew]

Just wanted to join in the clusterfuck.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

But in his defense a religion is a group of people who share largely the same beliefs and tenets.

If I indicate I'm a Brighton Soccer fan then people will expect me to act like one, ie. cheer for that team during matches, if I don't follow those actions then they will doubt I am one.

For instance many people would debate whether I'm a Christian despite me considering myself one - why you ask? .... because I don't believe the bible is the word of God, I think its a book which has some very good stuff in it, but its also heavily political propoganda and lifestyle advice for people who lived thousands of years ago and imho definitely not written by God.

That difference of opinion would be enough to get me strange looks at the very least from a lot of Christian church goers in Florida (in England not so much, heck clergy in England sometimes admit they don't believe in God ).

Now if that stance makes you consider me 'not a christian' then perhaps 'rainmaker' views you in a similar manner to how you view me because your viewpoint on other 'Christian' matters doesn't correspond closely enough to the mainstream 'common' christian viewpoint.

(ie. I don't think he's being biggotted, he's just indicating that the majority of christian churches appear to have a problem with homosexuals and has given evidence as to why he believes this is the care - all of which appears to have been done fairly reasonably imho)

Fair enough, but there's different religions, different sub-sets of those religions, and the individuals involved have different opinions too. It's a much broader group than "Brighton Soccer fan"

Maybe I should just ignore it and not care. The problem I run into on this board is I'm someone who grew up with religion and had a great experience with it - yet I'm not anti-gay and I have no problem with gay marriage. I'm conservative poltically - but I'm not a religious fundamentalist and I don't want morality to be legislated. So when people bash religion and conservatives on the whole for traits that I don't have (which is pretty much constant here), it's annoying. When people only want to talk about those groups in the terms of their worst traits, I feel attacked. It's like my combination of thoughts/opinions in invalidated - they're not compatable with each other.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

That actually sums up pretty well why you're a bigot. You view "religion", like the "KKK", as one people, having one opinion, that you've grouped together to feel superior to. You assign undesirable traits to an entire group of people to invalidate them, and disregard their individual characteristics, EVEN when the individuals express contrary opinions to those that you've labeled them with. When I expressed specific disagreement with your labeling, you accused me of defending those with the undesirable trait!

I don't view religion like the KKK. I used the KKK in an example.

I never said every Christian was a bigot. I said that a large part of the movement was and heavily supported anti-gay legislation throughout the country. No different than saying a large percent of the black population is below the poverty line. If you disagree with the statement, than fine. But stating that Christians in this country for the most part oppose gay rights is no different than saying young people in this country for the most part support Obama.