The official 2008 MLB thread

[tyketime]

Dola

I've heard several pundits and even a Tampa Bay player refer to the fact that Hamels is now out of the game.

Well... not so fast! I believe he is still in the game. He was due to hit in the bottom of the 6th, so I suspected he would be pulled, but since that never happened...

The weather here today is crappy, and there are possible rain/snow showers tomorrow. Any of you think there is a chance Hamels could stay in the game if they didn't pick the game back up until Thursday night?

[sterlingice]

There's no way Hamels goes if it's tonight- you just can't recover that quickly from a longish outing, particularly in those conditions. I bet his arm was jello in the 6th inning, being out in the cold and rain. Same with Kazmir. That said, if there is still a travel day built in, there's a chance he could come back on 3 days rest for game 7.

The Rays have a bit more intriguing pitching decision for tonight. I would think that Shields would give them the best opportunity to win tonight. However, if he goes, then they have absolutely no chance of winning the series. The only way they could possibly win is if Shields and Garza go in the last 2 games unless there's some freak scenario where we have to wait 2 more days and Kazmir can go again.

It's pretty clear Sonanstine was lost out there in game 4 and, really, he's not a "playoff caliber" pitcher. Then again, I would have said the same thing about Jamie Moyer and look what he did. But the typical "all hands on deck" scenario of an elimination game probably can't hold if you want any chance of winning the series.

SI

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Yeah, they should've ended it well before it got to that point. Would've been more fair to end it before it was an official game to give them a do-over. But oh well...

I'm with you DC...

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by tyketime

Once again, this just proves how beholden sports has become to the almighty TV dollar. I guarantee you Fox executives had some part in trying to push the game on last night.

"We can't have it interfere with House & Fringe... play the game Bud!".

House appears new but Fringe is a repeat .

[stevew]

Originally Posted by molson

Selig says (I think, if this context of this article is correct), says he wasn't going to let the series end via shortened rain-out game, that it would have simply been a "rain delay" of several days, if necessary:

In a first, World Series game suspended | MLB.com: News

"Even if the Rays hadn't tied the game in the sixth, the game wasn't going to be called, which would've resulted in the World Series championship being awarded to the Phillies.

"I was not going to allow that to happen," said Selig, who said the rain delay could have lasted two or three days, if necessary.

With rain forecast for Philadelphia on both Tuesday and Wednesday, Selig said he will not move the remainder of the Fall Classic to the domed confines of Tropicana Field.

"We'll stay here if we have to celebrate Thanksgiving here," said Selig.

So I guess the game is now technically "suspended", whereas if it wasn't a tie, it'd merely be a "delay".

Nice-
On the fly rule making. WTG bud selig.

[ISiddiqui]

And actually a GREAT decision by Selig.

[sterlingice]

If he hadn't opened his damn mouth, it would have been ok because everything is within the rules. Or I heard this morning that Gillick and Silverman had agreed before the game to not let it end before all 9 innings. So, just go and say that so that it's not another "Bud being Bud" moment and let Phillies fans get mad at Gillick for agreeing to it in the first place.

SI

[Alan T]

Bad decisions from the evening:

Starting the game in the first place
Not stopping the game well before the 4th inning.

Good decisions from the evening:

Stopping the game once it was tied
Not letting the game end before 9 innings in a rain shortened World series clincher.

[stevew]

Yeah, they should have delayed the start, and cancelled it. That would have been ideal.

Then if you do start it any way, suspend it before it becomes a legal game.

Bud Selig should not be making on the fly rule changes about what happens when a game is unplayable due to weather conditions.

[molson]

Originally Posted by stevew

Then if you do start it any way, suspend it before it becomes a legal game.

Bud Selig should not be making on the fly rule changes about what happens when a game is unplayable due to weather conditions.

What you suggest would have still been an artificial decision based on discretion. Selig didn't make any rule changes.

The problem is that they can't think of these things ahead of time for some reason, and thus nobody knows what's going to happen.

[Lathum]

If they were to cancel the game before the fifth that would have really screwed the Phils since the start from Hamels would have been a waste.

I think if you are Tampa you have to go with Shields tonight. They have to put themselves in a position to get back to Tampa before they worry about who to start in game 7.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by stevew

Bud Selig should not be making on the fly rule changes about what happens when a game is unplayable due to weather conditions.

This is the sport where Kennisaw Mountain Landis was Commissioner, right? It seems that on the fly rule changes aren't very controversial for a Commissioner in this league.

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by Lathum

If they were to cancel the game before the fifth that would have really screwed the Phils since the start from Hamels would have been a waste.

I think if you are Tampa you have to go with Shields tonight. They have to put themselves in a position to get back to Tampa before they worry about who to start in game 7.

You don't think they go with Price? I understand it's do or die time, but you lose Shields after a 1 to 3 inning stretch, and now you have Garza in game 6, with a big question mark for game 7?

I see the logic, but I can't imagine that's what you do. It's a bad spot to be in.

Hamels is done, but his pitch count was lower. Barring the weather, I was anticipating him to go at least 7, if not 8. Then Romero or Madson, following by Lidge in the 9th.

[Lathum]

I would be shocked if Hammels comes back. It has nothing to do with what Hammels pitch count was. You can't have him throw 6 innings, sit for 24 hours then come back, he is risking major injury there.

As for Price, I dont want a rookie in that spot, no matter who it is. I say start Shields, get back to Tampa and start Price in game 7 if you have to and hope he can string 3-4 innings together. I realize it's far from perfect, but if Price goes tonight and gives up a few runs they have 2 innings to get them back, at least if he starts game 7 and gets knocked around they have the whole game to scratch their way back.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Bad decisions from the evening:

Not stopping the game well before the 4th inning.

This is one I'll debate with people forever and a day. You think that if Bud had stopped it in the, say, the 4th with the Phillies winning that they wouldn't be screaming *even more* bloody murder than this morning?

SI

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I would be shocked if Hammels comes back. It has nothing to do with what Hammels pitch count was. You can't have him throw 6 innings, sit for 24 hours then come back, he is risking major injury there.

As for Price, I dont want a rookie in that spot, no matter who it is. I say start Shields, get back to Tampa and start Price in game 7 if you have to and hope he can string 3-4 innings together. I realize it's far from perfect, but if Price goes tonight and gives up a few runs they have 2 innings to get them back, at least if he starts game 7 and gets knocked around they have the whole game to scratch their way back.

I don't disagree on Hamels, all signs point to him being done.

I just don't think you waste Shields on that, of course, the game is shortened in logic, but it's still a tie and the game can go on. Still I doubt Price gets Game 7.

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

This is one I'll debate with people forever and a day. You think that if Bud had stopped it in the, say, the 4th with the Phillies winning that they wouldn't be screaming *even more* bloody murder than this morning?

SI

Most Philly fans I believe are fine with the decision, they didn't want a cheap win. The disappointment is that Hamels was fine until the rain got too bad, and the weather was badly affecting his ability to pitch and in reality cost the runs.

Kazmir on the other hand got knocked early and was lucky it wasn't worse with the men left on base. I will state that the strike zone fluctuated but that's not something that a Philly fan can control.

I don't think you'll ever see a neutral ground World Series, too much money lost doing that.

[Dr. Sak]

Is it true that it is snowing right now in Philly?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Is it true that it is snowing right now in Philly?

I wouldn't be suprised. We're supposed to get snow tonight here, so that storm is probably passing through there right now.

[JetsIn06]

I'm about an hour east of Philly....It's DREADFUL here. Windiest I've ever seen since I've lived here and it's pouring. Not nearly cold enough here to snow though.

[Logan]

My sister's family is a bit west of Philly. They had some wet snow for a bit but it's gone now, more bad weather ahead though.

[gstelmack]

And everyone was worried about rain in TAMPA when they were first hunting for a franchise...

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Is it true that it is snowing right now in Philly?

45 minutes west of Philly and it's a nasty sleet combo...I have to drive an hour further and it's possibly snowing...fortunately I plan to purchase Fallout 3 and enjoy.

[Dr. Sak]

The game wont be played tonight, a decision has been made.

[RedKingGold]

Good call actually.

Early forecast is that it should clear out by tomorrow afternoon, giving enough time to work on the field by 8:37 PM tomorrow.

[RedKingGold]

BTW, I live w/in 20 miles of CBP and can tell you that it's not sleet yet, but threatening to turn into it.

I'm not leaving my apartment for the rest of the day.

[RedKingGold]

And, yes, I was in the city last night (on 15th and Spruce).

Despite the early end to the game, I didn't get home until 2:00 A.M. as the SEPTA train was essentially a cattle car. It was bad.

[EagleFan]

I haven;t looked yet. Are they still having a travel day if there is a game 6 or will it be on Thursday? I ask because it makes for an interesting possibility. If there is a travel day than Hamels would be ready to go for game 7 with a full 4 days rest (if there is a game 7 that is).

Obviously I would like to see this end tomorrow night in the potentially bizare 3 1/2 inning game.

Go Phils!!!

[RedKingGold]

I've been scouring for information on that all day. This is the most that I found:

If the Rays were to win Game 5, which stands tied at 2, the Fall Classic will return to Tropicana Field in St. Petersburg, Fla. The question is when. Games 6 and 7 originally were scheduled for Wednesday and Thursday, but will need to be pushed back with the resumption of Game 5 now tentatively set for Wednesday.

"Nope, nope there's nothing new, right now," said Bob DuPuy, MLB's president and chief operating officer on Tuesday after the game was postponed for the second time. "Let's get Game 5 out of the way and then we'll worry about it."

World Series schedule uncertain | MLB.com: News

Honestly, I somewhat wonder if that's going to be a way to MLB to "repay" the Phillies a little bit, should they lose tomorrow.

I know there's been argument here and in other places whether the Phillies were significantly detrimented by last night's result. While I don't think Philadelphia was significantly detrimented by what happened last night, it is a "little" unfair that the Phils were forced to play defense in the sloppiest conditions that the field was in. Further, Hamels was still pitching well, but for the weather. So, there might be a slight argument that MLB might add a travel day to almost have a little bit of a re-do of the first six innings of Game 5 in Game 7 (should it get that far).

In either case, it will definitely start conspiracy theories.

[RedKingGold]

Also, I know the Phillies have been cautious with Hamels and not wanting him to go on short rest.

However:

-Hamels is the unquestioned ace of that team.
-Hamels has not gone on short rest the entire season.
-Hamels only threw 75 pitches in Game 5.
-Game 7 (w/o a travel day) would be Friday at the earliest.
-It would be Game Freaking 7 of the World Series.

Even though the Phillies have been very cautious with Hamels, I'd hope that it just makes too much sense to pitch him under these conditions.

[stevew]

You know what, if Selig had made it known to everyone that there was no way the game would end in less than 9 innings, I wouldn't have a beef. Of course he told both teams, we're finding out, but hey....how about telling the media(and therefore the fans). His whole "we're going to use common sense" thing peeved me. I mean, for the last god knows however many years, they've used the same rainout/legal game standards. But, whatever. I thought Harry Kalas was going to keel over, dude was pretty pissed off.

[stevew]

And of course, no plans are made as to whether there is a travel day or not, yet. Let's make some more rules on the fly buddy Bud.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by stevew

I thought Harry Kalas was going to keel over, dude was pretty pissed off.

What exactly was Kalas pissed about. ( I love him as a broadcaster BTW)

[stevew]

Other than he'd called 10k losses as a broadcaster?

He was pissed because he was going on the assumption that 100 years of what constituted a legal game would remain as the common law, and really didn't understand why they would play the top of the 6th in shit conditions, but not the bottom. Something to that effect, it was just some emotion maybe I wasn't expecting.

[RedKingGold]

Listening to Bud speak on ESPN last night, he said he doubts that there will be a travel day.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by stevew

You know what, if Selig had made it known to everyone that there was no way the game would end in less than 9 innings, I wouldn't have a beef. Of course he told both teams, we're finding out, but hey....how about telling the media(and therefore the fans). His whole "we're going to use common sense" thing peeved me. I mean, for the last god knows however many years, they've used the same rainout/legal game standards. But, whatever. I thought Harry Kalas was going to keel over, dude was pretty pissed off.

Again, I think this really important part is bolded for emphasis. Now, if Gillick didn't go and tell Manuel and by proxy the team, then that's his problem, not Bud's. And, again, it would have been nice to tell the broadcast booth, too, before the game so everyone had known.

That said, it's not as if Bud's winging it here- both teams agreed to it so Phillies fans need to stop being pissed because in the end it seems like they're just pissed because they weren't told not because it wasn't fair.

SI

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

That said, it's not as if Bud's winging it here- both teams agreed to it so Phillies fans need to stop being pissed because in the end it seems like they're just pissed because they weren't told not because it wasn't fair.

SI

Im not pissed because of that...I am pissed because they either should've halted the game at the bottom of the 5th or since they started the 6th...finish the 6th.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Im not pissed because of that...I am pissed because they either should've halted the game at the bottom of the 5th or since they started the 6th...finish the 6th.

Seriously ask yourself- if you didn't know about the agreement, as it seems no one did, and you were up 2-1 in the bottom of the 5th and they called it, wouldn't you be screaming even more bloody murder because the rules should have given Philly a win?

Of course, it's hard to judge that in hindsight now because we know the outcome- score is tied so we for sure were going to get a delay. However, it's "easy" now because Bud was let off the hook. But what if it was still 2-1, or, hell, if the Phils had scored 4 times in this muck and it was 6-1. There would have been shouts of "there's no way they were going to come back" and "those are the rules of the game" for 2 straight days while they waited to resume the game.

SI

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Seriously ask yourself- if you didn't know about the agreement, as it seems no one did, and you were up 2-1 in the bottom of the 5th and they called it, wouldn't you be screaming even more bloody murder because the rules should have given Philly a win?

SI

I stated earlier in this thread. I want the Phillies to win more than anything, but I didn't want them to win because of a shorted delay game. This is the World Series...all 9 innings should be played. I'll see if I can find the comment I made earlier.

I have no issues with the suspension of the game but I don't like how they did it in the middle of an inning.

Edit: Here
http://www.osatwork.com/fofc/showpos...postcount=2876

[RedKingGold]

Weather Update from CBP + 20-miles: It did not rain at all last night and pavement was bone dry. There was some moisture in the grass, but that's obviously normal for morning conditions. Thus, the field should have had some time to dry out and I'd bet some of the groundskeepers have done maintenance over the last few dry hours.

It's overcast right now, but weather reports seem to indicate that the only preceiptation expected is scattered showers. It's supposed to be "mostly cloudy" from 7:00 PM on.

Looks like game-on in about ten hours.

[EagleFan]

I think Selig is full of shit on this. I think the teams are just trying to back the commish on this by saying they "knew".

If the teams knew than why didn't the players know? If the teams were told wouldn't the media have been told? If the decision was made previously the media should have been the first to know so they could have prevented all of the controvery by letting everyone know the situation. If that was the case it would have been stopped after 5 as everyone would know and they would not have waited for the game to be tied. I think if the Rays didn't tie the game it would have been played until they did or until completion because this "decision" was not made before the game.

[EagleFan]

dola: I am not saying the game should have been declared, just that Selig is full of shit with his explanation. Or he is a complete moron and never told who should have been told.

[molson]

Just a reminder that Brett Myers is a douchebag.

Extra Bases - Red Sox blog

He says that if the Red Sox had made it to the World Series, he would have refused to pitch at Fenway because of the negative reaction they gave him his first start after he slapped his wife around outside a Boston bar.

The case was dismissed because wife refused to cooperate, despite the fact there were eyewitnesses. I know victimless prosecution is a hot issue in Idaho, but I figured that's because we're a little backwards here. I'm SHOCKED that Massachusetts does this. Victims of DV refuse to cooperate a huge majority of the time - all a wife-beater like Myers has to do to avoid prosecution is to intimidate his wife even more. Great system.

[Dr. Sak]

Well they didn't so it doesn't matter

And just so I don't get crap...I don't in any way condone his behavior.

[Lathum]

not a great start

[Eaglesfan27]

I disagree. Great start to the game.

[sterlingice]

I had never noticed how bad Werth's facial hair was. Man, that looks awful

SI

[Lathum]

I'm starting to get the feeling this is the Phils night

[Lathum]

lol.

or not

[Lathum]

that double play about does it, I think