The Trump Presidency – 2016

[Brian Swartz]

That's true to a minimal extent, but it doesn't make you slightest bit qualified either through the experience of doing something to further the wellbeing of others or the basic knowledge required to make informed choices.

[RainMaker]

No, it's true to the maximum extent. You live in this country you have skin in the game as the decisions made by your representatives impact your life.

Who makes this test by the way?

[Brian Swartz]

That's not maximum extent at all. You can live your whole life and ignore the political sphere almost completely. Lots of people do that, just like you buy things from Amazon every week without worrying about who owns it or how they run it.

As for who makes the test, an independent commission of some kind.

[RainMaker]

Unless you're living off the grid, you're in the political sphere. The roads you drive on, laws you must abide by, fresh water you drink, etc are all part of politics.

Will these commissions be like the ones that draw up the congressional districts?

[Brian Swartz]

Look at it this way. Following results are from a May 2017 study by Haven Insights. There are many other similar polls over the years.

** 37% knew the name of their representative in the US House. This is to say nothing of their record, or what their job is, or what the various branches of government are even responsible for. Couldn't tell you their name.

** Almost twice that number hilariously thought the representative that almost half of them couldn't name was overpaid.

** A third of those who voted in the 2016 elections just over six months before this didn't think the US House representative race in their district had even been on the ballot (hint: it was. It is everywhere. Every time)

My point is simply this; we're amazingly fortunate that our government is as good as it is. With this level of ignorance on the part of the electorate, nonsensical policy is inevitable and it's only the noble restraint of those politicians we love to deride (often justifiably) that keeps matters from being far, far worse than they are.

An uninformed electorate is an unsustainable thing in a free society, and a surefire recipe for disaster. There may be better ideas than mine for what to do about it. I'm open to those. Environmental policy? Infrastructure laws? What vanishingly small percentage of people even know what the elected officials they voted for or against want done on those issues? What difference does it make if they are affected by things they make no real effort to understand (in the aggregate mind, not every single individual). It's hiring a mechanic who doesn't know what brakes are. Who really thinks that's a good idea?

[Lathum]

You want voter turnout and people to be educated about the candidates, allow gambling on the election. Would see record turnout.

[Butter]

There is gambling on the election.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Butter

There is gambling on the election.

Only offshore. If you legalized it nationwide would make the superbowl look like small potatoes.

[JPhillips]

Trump's Oklahoma campaign chair to plead guilt to child sex trafficking

The conspiracy is inside the house!

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Trump's Oklahoma campaign chair to plead guilt to child sex trafficking

The conspiracy is inside the house!

Isn't that a retread from 2017?

I get all over people for doing this sort of clickbait thing on Facebook so why would that be ok here. That's not current news so I don't understand the promotion of it here again.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Isn't that a retread from 2017?

I get all over people for doing this sort of clickbait thing on Facebook so why would that be ok here. That's not current news so I don't understand the promotion of it here again.

Yeah, I didn't check the date. I was more interested in the QAnon part, honestly. The storm is coming!

[stevew]

Yesterday’s retread clickbait news was talking about a new highly contagious mutation strain of covid that was found in Malaysia.


(Which it has been the dominant US strain since April or before)

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Lathum

You want voter turnout and people to be educated about the candidates, allow gambling on the election.

I think politics is corrupt enough on its own without more help

Turnout isn't particularly important to me - the people who do vote having a vague clue based on reasonable information why they vote for people is a much bigger issue IMO. More low-information voters would only make voting decisions even worse.

[Ksyrup]

So in addition to the STL gun-waving couple, apparently Nick Sandman will also be speaking at the RNC convention. It's like a parody of a parody at this point.

[ISiddiqui]

I don't think the answer to our issues is less Democracy. And sure, if forced to go they may vote “None”, but a few may decide to better educate themselves. But I think we should aim for our system to represent the voice of the people and not the voice of the majority of 60% of our people (on the high end).

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I think politics is corrupt enough on its own without more help

Turnout isn't particularly important to me - the people who do vote having a vague clue based on reasonable information why they vote for people is a much bigger issue IMO. More low-information voters would only make voting decisions even worse.

If people are betting money on the election you can bet they would be more educated. Would you bet on a baseball game without knowing the weather, starting pitchers, if Mike Trout was in the lineup, etc...?

[Ksyrup]

The information you would need to know to effectively bet elections doesn't make you any more informed on the issues, just what issues/positions people are more likely to vote on in particular districts/states, as well as particular information about the candidates. I'm not sure that kind of knowledge is really all that useful if the goal is a more informed electorate.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

The information you would need to know to effectively bet elections doesn't make you any more informed on the issues, just what issues/positions people are more likely to vote on in particular districts/states, as well as particular information about the candidates. I'm not sure that kind of knowledge is really all that useful if the goal is a more informed electorate.

Some of the most successful sports bettors couldn’t name a player on either team, nor do they care. The Books detest these guys.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

More low-information voters would only make voting decisions even worse.

I don't think there's any evidence to support that claim. Plenty of high information voters cast a ballot for Roy Moore for example. More knowledge about the system doesn't mean the chosen leaders will be better. And why is, say knowledge of international baning systems obviously a superior criteria for a candidate than is he/she understands my life?

And then what does better even mean? Plenty of people think Trump is better. I hated Bush2, but plenty of people think he was better than Obama. What losing candidates were obviously better than the candidate that won?

Limiting who can vote just ends up with the people in power consolidating their collective hold on power.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Most people I know are planning on showing up to vote, with masks, and standing 6' apart.

I’m not sure how feasible that is, based on extremely long lines in previous elections. If they were to stand 6’ apart, the people in the back of the line would be in a different zip code.

[stevew]

I guess they’re rolling back all the USPS changes.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by stevew

I guess they’re rolling back all the USPS changes.

No, DeJoy is just promising not to do any more changes.

[stevew]

Isn’t this what the were complaining about?

The U.S. Postal Service will halt its controversial cost-cutting initiatives until after the election — canceling service reductions, reinstating overtime hours and ceasing the removal of mail-sorting machines and public collection boxes, Postmaster General Louis DeJoy announced in a statement Tuesday.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by stevew

Isn’t this what the were complaining about?

The U.S. Postal Service will halt its controversial cost-cutting initiatives until after the election — canceling service reductions, reinstating overtime hours and ceasing the removal of mail-sorting machines and public collection boxes, Postmaster General Louis DeJoy announced in a statement Tuesday.

But are they putting the machines/mail boxes back? Or they just sitting on the damage they already have done? I am not seeing confirmation the machines have been put back in place.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

But are they putting the machines/mail boxes back? Or they just sitting on the damage they already have done? I am not seeing confirmation the machines have been put back in place.

Getting the mail back and running is great for all the people who need it.

I don't trust it for the election.

I think that everyone who is at all capable of voting in person needs to do it. Or, if they do need an absentee ballot, to drop it off at a collection box and not trust the mail.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

But are they putting the machines/mail boxes back? Or they just sitting on the damage they already have done? I am not seeing confirmation the machines have been put back in place.

That's really the big thing. All of those sorting machines are just gone. That also gives away what they are trying to do. There's no short-term cost savings in having them physically removed rather than just idled. They were removing machnes so as to break the USPS.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Authoritarianism of some sort will eventually be the answer. The only questions to my mind is how long until we accept that, and what form it takes. The civic requirements of a free society are ones we stopped pretending to accept responsibility for some while ago - not that we were ever fully accepting of them, but I do think it was quite a bit better than it is now.

Why? Plenty of free countries with even more democratic forms of government than us that have handled this just fine.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Getting the mail back and running is great for all the people who need it.

I don't trust it for the election.

I think that everyone who is at all capable of voting in person needs to do it. Or, if they do need an absentee ballot, to drop it off at a collection box and not trust the mail.

Or do it really early. I guess emailed my request for an absentee ballot today. I'll try to send it as early as possible.

[panerd]

How are the citizens of the twin cities going to vote by mail look what the GOP did to these post offices! Oh wait no that was those peaceful protests right?

[RainMaker]

Perhaps the other 32,000 post offices can handle it?

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Perhaps the other 32,000 post offices can handle it?

Oh from the news and speaker Pelosi's call to action I thought they were getting rid of all of the personal mailboxes and post offices? So they arent?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by panerd

Oh from the news and speaker Pelosi's call to action I thought they were getting rid of all of the personal mailboxes and post offices? So they arent?

No, they were purposely slowing down the mail by cutting hours and instituting new policies that would leave mail sitting for days. There are reports of them removing sorting machines and shutting down mailboxes.

I didn't see where Pelosi said what you claim she said.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by panerd

How are the citizens of the twin cities going to vote by mail look what the GOP did to these post offices! Oh wait no that was those peaceful protests right?

Originally Posted by panerd

Oh from the news and speaker Pelosi's call to action I thought they were getting rid of all of the personal mailboxes and post offices? So they arent?

Whatever point you're trying to make is so red hot that it is almost completely invisible.

[JPhillips]

Somebody burnt a post office down and anyone worried about voter suppression is a hypocrite.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by panerd

Oh from the news and speaker Pelosi's call to action I thought they were getting rid of all of the personal mailboxes and post offices? So they arent?

I really respect the fact that you're willing to go against this echo chamber a lot of the time, but is this really a hill you want to die on? It is so blatantly obvious what was going on, hell, Trump didn't even deny it.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Somebody burnt a post office down and anyone worried about voter suppression is a hypocrite.

Not somebody. The COVID proof protesters who can protest in crowds of 10000s and not get sick but cant stand in line on election day to vote due to the deadly virus.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by panerd

Oh from the news and speaker Pelosi's call to action I thought they were getting rid of all of the personal mailboxes and post offices? So they arent?

I hope the anti-conservative arguments you claim to make on conservative leaning boards aren't as dumb as the anti-liberal arguments you make here.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I really respect the fact that you're willing to go against this echo chamber a lot of the time, but is this really a hill you want to die on? It is so blatantly obvious what was going on, hell, Trump didn't even deny it.

It's not the echo chamber just the circular logic. Virus not deadly to masses of people wearing masks without an inch between them, all the time in the world to attend multiple protests every day of the week. However need to stand in line on Nov 3? No way! You kidding with the deadly virus and all my time contraints!

[panerd]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I hope the anti-conservative arguments you claim to make on conservative leaning boards aren't as dumb as the anti-liberal arguments you make here.

Yeah you are right. The election hangs in the balance, the free world hangs in the balance, the biggest controversy of the last 24 hours! How will anyone vote if the blue mailboxes are removed from areas? If Trump wins it will surely be because of this!

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by panerd

Yeah you are right. The election hangs in the balance, the free world hangs in the balance, the biggest controversy of the last 24 hours! How will anyone vote if the blue mailboxes are removed from areas? If Trump wins it will surely be because of this!

I won't dispute the idiocy of some of this protesting in a pandemic, though at least they mainly wear masks, but get serious. The number of people that are protesting are dwarfed by the number of voters that have a legit concern about standing in long lines at the poll and mostly not the same crowd.

Mail in voting gives everyone a chance to vote and there are ways to ensure the validity. Restricting access to polling stations and fucking with USPS to the point where some people would skip voting over taking the risk, or not be able to get to a poll is suppression. It's naive not to see the differences.

[JPhillips]

What if I said I don't want Trump voters or Jorgenson voters to catch COVID either? We know indoor spaces with lots of people are dangerous, if we can, we should avoid those situations.

[JPhillips]

dola

The joint Senate Intelligence Committee report makes it clear that the Trump/Russia connection in 2016 was basically the worst case scenario.

Putin was directly working to harm Clinton ad help Trump
Manafort was feeding campaign info to a Russian intelligence operative
Wikileaks was working with Russian intelligence
Stone was working with Wikileaks and communicating with Trump
Trump and the campaign were looking for Russian help
Bannon and Trump Jr. lied to the committee and were referred to the DoJ

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Latest CNN poll has Biden's lead down to 4.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

NBC/Washington Post polls (rated A+ by 538) have Biden ahead 10 with Likely Voters, 12 with Registered Voters, and 12 with All Voters.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

dola

The joint Senate Intelligence Committee report makes it clear that the Trump/Russia connection in 2016 was basically the worst case scenario.

Putin was directly working to harm Clinton ad help Trump
Manafort was feeding campaign info to a Russian intelligence operative
Wikileaks was working with Russian intelligence
Stone was working with Wikileaks and communicating with Trump
Trump and the campaign were looking for Russian help
Bannon and Trump Jr. lied to the committee and were referred to the DoJ

BUT THE 3RD PARAGRAPH SAID THERE'S NO PROOF OF COLLUSION BETWEEN TRUMP AND RUSSIA.

-Every conservative on the internet right now

[panerd]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

I won't dispute the idiocy of some of this protesting in a pandemic, though at least they mainly wear masks, but get serious. The number of people that are protesting are dwarfed by the number of voters that have a legit concern about standing in long lines at the poll and mostly not the same crowd.

Mail in voting gives everyone a chance to vote and there are ways to ensure the validity. Restricting access to polling stations and fucking with USPS to the point where some people would skip voting over taking the risk, or not be able to get to a poll is suppression. It's naive not to see the differences.

So here is my own belief on voter suppression... maybe people just don't give a shit about voting? (And the thing is I am NOT defending the GOP and agree they likely do these things because they think it gives them an advantage. Queue thesloppy getting all up in arms now because I said I hate the GOP as well)

So let's take a guy like JPhillips. Highly educated, knows his stuff, goes out on election day and votes. Going to guess he probably uses some form of ID but maybe he shows a utility bill or mails in his vote. His contention that 40%+ of this country that never votes wants to vote but are just being suppressed. It's not that the two major parties show out shit candidates every year, it's not that people maybe liked a candidate like Sanders and get pissed when his own party fucks him over, it's not that a lot of people just don't care, but they are being suppressed.

How are they being suppressed? Well for one they can't find the time in 4 years since the last time they were suppressed (or 2 years when this same argument is used about Senate/Congressional elections) to get a driver's license, some form of ID, or register to vote. They are dying to vote mind you but could not do that in 1000+ days. If they do have ID it's that they can't make it to the polls on Nov 3. He can, I can, you can but they can't. Employers are required to let them vote, they could even go before or after work, but must be dirty tactics keeping them from voting.

Why can't they? I personally don't have an answer for you but he is omniscient so they are probably black and probably just dying to vote for Joe Biden. In fact their suppression is why all of these candidates are winning and losing they have that much power that is being taken from them. Throw in this year where we will likely match or exceed the vote totals of every single previous presidential election but it will still be the pandemic that loses the election for Biden.

What is my opinion? Maybe they all would vote for Trump. I don't presume they are all black and I don't presume what they all would do. Maybe they would all vote Libertarian. Then we would have an issue on our hands. But no he has solved that a third party will never be viable but can't wrap his head around the idea that maybe 40% of the people just don't care or want to vote. Maybe it's that simple?

[thesloppy]

In Oregon & Washington turnout for presidential elections has been above 80% in practically every instance since adopting voting entirely by mail.

Also, constructing an entire argument out of your ass and then putting JPhillips name on it, in the middle of a discussion you are having with someone else, is a king douche move. Why do you do that?

[JPhillips]

lol

It must be nice to "know" so many things.

I've never said or suggested over 40%. The GOP has been caught in recordings and in writing admitting they are doing things to make it harder for Dem leaning groups to vote. They'll catch some GOP voters in those nets, but targeting is detailed enough that they'll be very, very likely to catch more Dem voters than GOP voters. They don't need huge percentages, especially in close elections. A percentage point in the right places can swing an election. DO enough things, make registration harder, close polling places, voter ID, restrict college students, use fewer ballot machines, etc. and you might swing a close state.

You understand that an uninspiring candidate can turn off a voter. Why would you question that making registration and voting a multi-day, several hour process might do the same thing?

[panerd]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

You understand that an uninspiring candidate can turn off a voter. Why would you question that making registration and voting a multi-day, several hour process might do the same thing?

How it is possibly a multi-day process? Let's forget that most of the states allow mail in or absentee voting. But let's just talk a place where Kentucky where I don't think you can do either. It takes multiple days to vote?

[JPhillips]

Many states require a separate registration.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by panerd

How are they being suppressed? Well for one they can't find the time in 4 years since the last time they were suppressed (or 2 years when this same argument is used about Senate/Congressional elections) to get a driver's license, some form of ID, or register to vote. They are dying to vote mind you but could not do that in 1000+ days. If they do have ID it's that they can't make it to the polls on Nov 3. He can, I can, you can but they can't. Employers are required to let them vote, they could even go before or after work, but must be dirty tactics keeping them from voting.

Why can't they? I personally don't have an answer for you but he is omniscient so they are probably black and probably just dying to vote for Joe Biden. In fact their suppression is why all of these candidates are winning and losing they have that much power that is being taken from them. Throw in this year where we will likely match or exceed the vote totals of every single previous presidential election but it will still be the pandemic that loses the election for Biden.

What is my opinion? Maybe they all would vote for Trump. I don't presume they are all black and I don't presume what they all would do. Maybe they would all vote Libertarian. Then we would have an issue on our hands. But no he has solved that a third party will never be viable but can't wrap his head around the idea that maybe 40% of the people just don't care or want to vote. Maybe it's that simple?

There's a large number of people out there that work long ass days (sometimes multiple jobs), don't have a polling location close to them or their polling location has hours long lines. They get to work their day, go stand in line to vote, and still figure out dinner for their family, take the kids to practice, pick them up from school/daycare, and take care of their other daily duties.

Do people figure this out and still vote? Sure. But making voting easier definitively raises turnout so it's not that these people prefer not to vote. People that are getting their ass kicked by life are just generally less likely to justify taking the time to go stand in line.