The Trump Presidency – 2016

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Wasn't meant to be nuanced. Your gross and offensive sexism was pretty direct and obvious to see. "Man, I'd love to bang her, but she should shut up about certain things."

Actually that never crossed my mind, it was more of the wine-sipping liberal elitist. But you know what they say about "dirty minds" ...

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Actually that never crossed my mind, it was more of the wine-sipping liberal elitist. But you know what they say about "dirty minds" ...

In your own very fucking post, you felt the need to say she was hot before saying she should shut up about the USPS. Not in the mood for your gaslighting bullshit.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

In your own very fucking post, you felt the need to say she was hot before saying she should shut up about the USPS. Not in the mood for your gaslighting bullshit.

Gaslighting? You are obviously a hyperbolic and possibly paranoid person and I'm pretty sure won't be able to hold a half-way decent conversation. Feel free to ignore my posts and I won't respond to you.

Gaslighting - Wikipedia

Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation in which a person or a group covertly sows seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or group, making them question their own memory, perception, or judgment, often evoking in them, cognitive dissonance and other changes including low self-esteem. Using denial, misdirection, contradiction, and misinformation, gaslighting involves attempts to destabilize the victim and delegitimize the victim's beliefs. Instances can range from the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents occurred, to belittling the victim's emotions and feelings, to the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim.

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by Edward64

3) Some context. USPS handles 472M pieces of mail each day. About 138M voted last time. So let's say there will be a pretty good surge at 160M? How long is the voting period? Don't know, let's say min of 2 weeks (but probably longer). 472M x 6 x 2 weeks = 5,664B. Therefore, voting by mail will add 2.8% over 2 weeks or swagging 1.4% over a month.

If only the USPS knew how to deal with such a short term influx of mail to get through this. Sounds like you may think a surge in mail like what this election may bring must be unheard of and will take months and months to figure out...

Or maybe they deal with this every single year and will be fine if not interfered with. USPS will deliver more than 20 million packages per day this holiday season - Newsroom - About.usps.com

“Busiest Mailing and Delivery Days
The Postal Service’s busiest time of the season peaks two weeks before Christmas, when much last-minute shopping starts. Customer traffic is expected to increase beginning Dec. 9, while the week of Dec. 16 is expected to be the busiest time for mailing, shipping and delivery. Additionally, the Postal Service predicts that nearly 2.5 billion pieces of First-Class Mail, including greeting cards, will be processed and delivered the week of Dec. 16.“

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

USPS situation is more complicated and has more history than she portrays it. The failure of USPS in current day is not cause by any one administration, its been a history of congress not helping USPS to succeed and also situation of National Labors Relation board not realizing times have changed and USPS has to change with it.

They asked for $25B, this was not for the election but normal operations. They also asked for $3.5B for the election situation.

So

1) Spread the blame. Is it really Trump, Congress or both, with a large sprinkling of incompetence by USPS management & unions

2) Trump has said he was willing to deal for what he wants in the economic package (before Taylor's statement). I actually think this is smart way to negotiate as he has something the other side wants. Will the Dems deal or will both continue to play chicken (someone has to blink soon)

3) Some context. USPS handles 472M pieces of mail each day. About 138M voted last time. So let's say there will be a pretty good surge at 160M? How long is the voting period? Don't know, let's say min of 2 weeks (but probably longer). 472M x 6 x 2 weeks = 5,664B. Therefore, voting by mail will add 2.8% over 2 weeks or swagging 1.4% over a month.

What can USPS do without additional funds? The obvious answer is to rework internal processes to give ballots top priority. Leverage volunteers; provide tiered cut-offs zip; instead of mailing it back in, ask people to drive and drop it off in a special box; ask only older people to vote by mail etc.

There are many ways to mitigate the situation. Don't come to Congress and ask for $3B (probably reasonable) but also $25B for regular operations.

Let's talk about voter suppression angle ...

4) Yes, Trump has pretty much said he doesn't want USPS to do universal balloting (but has said he is willing to deal) because it helps the Dems. I'm okay with it. I believe voting is a duty and privilege. There are exceptional cases but for the bell curve non-20% go out and vote. In 2016, 55% voted so there is around approx. 25% more that can vote but don't because they are GD lazy and don't care enough

5) What's the problem with asking a good portion of people to come in an vote in a traditional manner? For Dems, BLM protests were okay because it was for important enough of a cause. For GOP, Sturgis and Ozarks were okay. You get the idea. Electing a President and next Congress is more important than either, so show up with your face masks, sanitizer spray, and be ready to stand 6ft apart and wait a long time.

My point here is for the non-20% bell curve (e.g. the missing 25%), if you are not willing to vote if you cannot get a mail-in ballot, that's not something you can pin on Trump.



I agree, that's why I said it.



Wow, pretty nuanced sarcasm, I almost missed it.

Sorry dude, but this is a bunch of bullshit word salad.

DeJoy was put in place to do one thing, tear down the USPS so it would suppress voting while giving him a win over Bezos, and Trump is openly flaunting that.

To say a president should leverage peoples ability to vote so he gets what he wants is fucking lunacy.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

If only the USPS knew how to deal with such a short term influx of mail to get through this. Sounds like you may think a surge in mail like what this election may bring must be unheard of and will take months and months to figure out...

Not at all. I think USPS can very well handle the mail-in spike of approx +2.8% over 2 weeks or +1.4% over a month by putting in contingency plans. Now the other stuff it struggles with (e.g. profitability, union pensions etc.) is a different story, they definitely need help there and its not just business as usual with another $25B in funding. Let's see if Biden makes this a priority if/when he wins office.

Or maybe they deal with this every single year and will be fine if not interfered with. USPS will deliver more than 20 million packages per day this holiday season - Newsroom - About.usps.com

“Busiest Mailing and Delivery Days
The Postal Service’s busiest time of the season peaks two weeks before Christmas, when much last-minute shopping starts. Customer traffic is expected to increase beginning Dec. 9, while the week of Dec. 16 is expected to be the busiest time for mailing, shipping and delivery. Additionally, the Postal Service predicts that nearly 2.5 billion pieces of First-Class Mail, including greeting cards, will be processed and delivered the week of Dec. 16.“

So you don't think Trump's denying the $3.5B additional funds for USPS (or at least for now as he's stated he's willing to deal) will actually suppress voting because USPS can handle the additional temporary spike?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Sorry dude, but this is a bunch of bullshit word salad.

DeJoy was put in place to do one thing, tear down the USPS so it would suppress voting while giving him a win over Bezos, and Trump is openly flaunting that.

I'll let my analysis stand and assume we agree to disagree.

To say a president should leverage peoples ability to vote so he gets what he wants is fucking lunacy.

I can see how your wording is problematic and it is not how I would put it.

The wording I would use is "Presidents & Congress should represent the voting people in our republic voting process. If some non-bell curve people (e.g. the 25%) are not willing to endure some inconvenience to vote as is their duty and privilege, they shouldn't complain when someone like Trump gets elected and/or definitely elect him/Congress out in 4 years time".

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I'll let my analysis stand and assume we agree to disagree.



I can see how your wording is problematic and it is not how I would put it.

The wording I would use is "Presidents & Congress should represent the voting people in our republic voting process. If some non-bell curve people (e.g. the 25%) are not willing to endure some inconvenience to vote as is their duty and privilege, they shouldn't complain when someone like Trump gets elected and/or definitely elect him/Congress out in 4 years time".

you also said

Yes, Trump has pretty much said he doesn't want USPS to do universal balloting (but has said he is willing to deal) because it helps the Dems. I'm okay with it.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

you also said

True. The full quote is below. I don't see how I am inconsistent.

Yes, Trump has pretty much said he doesn't want USPS to do universal balloting (but has said he is willing to deal) because it helps the Dems. I'm okay with it. I believe voting is a duty and privilege. There are exceptional cases but for the bell curve non-20% go out and vote. In 2016, 55% voted so there is around approx. 25% more that can vote but don't because they are GD lazy and don't care enough

[Lathum]

You are literally saying you are OK with Trump leveraging mail in voting to get what he wants.

That is beyond fucked.

May as well post a meme about people can go to walmart so they can go vote.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

You are literally saying you are OK with Trump leveraging mail in voting to get what he wants.

That is beyond fucked.

May as well post a meme about people can go to walmart so they can go vote.

Let me try to rephrase my word salad above.

Re: sad shape USPS is in right now. Shared blame, problems long before Trump and DeJoy. This is the $25B requested.

Re: Trump stealing the election because he has refused the +$3.5B and not for universal mail-in voting. There are exceptions but let's focus on the 55% that did vote in 2016 and my guestimate of non-bell curve exceptions of an additional 25% lazy, couldn't be bothered folks.

1) Our republic has survived just fine without universal (or near) mail in voting. Covid-19 is not an excuse not to vote in person assuming there are basic precautions taken at the voting booths.

2) We are talking about an estimated USPS spike of +2.8% for 2 weeks or +1.4% for 4 weeks in mail-in voting volume (yeah, not precise but you get the idea). As stated by another poster, USPS handles the Christmas volume spikes also. There are mitigation strategies that can be implemented. The $3.5B is a red herring, or the liberal version of Jade Helm.

3) No one is taking away a persons right to vote but admittedly adding more inconvenience if one can't vote by mail. So? Deal with the inconvenience and vote in person as voting is your duty and a privilege. If you don't vote, don't whine about who is in power

So back to your basic statement.

You are literally saying you are OK with Trump leveraging mail in voting to get what he wants.

I am okay with Trump saying whatever Trump says because we've seen him turn on a dime and/or blow hot air.

If you are telling me that by not giving USPS +$3.5B that Trump will definitely steal the election, yes I would be very concerned. However, I don't believe that will happen. There are many ways to facilitate the spike in USPS volume and, at the very least, voting booths will still be available.

My questions to you:

1) Do you believe that by not giving USPS the +$3.5B that Trump will steal the election?

2) Do you believe that we can still have a fair election with same % in 2016 of 2/5 mail-in & absentee and 3/5 voting in-person?

[Lathum]

1) Do you believe that by not giving USPS the +$3.5B that Trump will steal the election?

2) Do you believe that we can still have a fair election with same % in 2016 of 2/5 mail-in & absentee and 3/5 voting in-person?

[/quote]

1. I think it could most certainly contribute to him stealing the election, and any other president in history even suggesting what he is saying out loud would be the scandal of their presidency.

2. No I do not. If you don't see they are already setting things up to either suppress the mail in vote or use the USPS recent ineptitude to illegitimatize the election you are blind.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

1. I think it could most certainly contribute to him stealing the election, and any other president in history even suggesting what he is saying out loud would be the scandal of their presidency.

2. No I do not. If you don't see they are already setting things up to either suppress the mail in vote or use the USPS recent ineptitude to illegitimatize the election you are blind.

Fair enough. I think we can clearly see why we differ in opinion.

[PilotMan]

[GrantDawg]

Latest CNN poll has Biden's lead down to 4.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Latest CNN poll has Biden's lead down to 4.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Just trying to make sure the left gets out and votes

[PilotMan]

I'm sure it's media manipulation all over it. That's what we'll hear no matter what the polls say anyway.

[JPhillips]

Don't celebrate or panic over one poll.

And CNN's polling over the last 4 months is nuts

Biden +11
Biden +5
Biden +14
Biden +4

Trust polling averages more than individual polls.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Don't celebrate or panic over one poll.

And CNN's polling over the last 4 months is nuts

Biden +11
Biden +5
Biden +14
Biden +4

Trust polling averages more than individual polls.

I really don't trust polls in general. It just drives me nuts when people act like this is a done deal. It so far from it.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Edward64

No one is taking away a persons right to vote but admittedly adding more inconvenience if one can't vote by mail. So? Deal with the inconvenience and vote in person as voting is your duty and a privilege. If you don't vote, don't whine about who is in power

at the very least, voting booths will still be available.

You realise that this a) was a shambles recently and will be even more so with a very, very likely further spike in SarsCov2 activity come November ? And that the whole american in person system also systematically 'inconveniences' parts of it's population way more than others ?

Your election procedure is a tragedy and utter joke compared to other big democracies. The fact alone that it is still done on a workday due to some reasoning stemming from back when people thought wigs were fashionable and travelled by horse. If as few people voted here as in the US, we'd turn the whole system upside down to make sure it is easier to vote or simply register to do so (hint: it is veeeeery easy over here). The US ? Just chillin, you win some you loose some. Greatest democracy because peeeps 150 years ago thought so ! But at least this way only the committed folks vote ! (Read "the right folks")

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...untries/?amp=1

Now you add more 'inconvenience' because hey, fuck that pandemic, who cares ? Awesome. Land of the free ! Best democracy ever ! Decided by barely 50% of 'the people', what am inspiration to the world. We could only hope to be that democratic ...

[Bee]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Don't celebrate or panic over one poll.

And CNN's polling over the last 4 months is nuts

Biden +11
Biden +5
Biden +14
Biden +4

Trust polling averages more than individual polls.

I agree, while polling is always inconsistent polling averages usually give the best perspective. According to FiveThirtyEight, Biden is up around 8.5 points. The ABC/Washington Post poll just came out (which is considered an A+ poll by FiveThirtyEight) and it shows Biden +10 to +13. My gut tells me it probably is closer than that, but it still is an uphill battle for Trump.

[NobodyHere]

I think 2016 proved that nationals polls are kind of useless.

We need to look state polls, especially purple states.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by whomario

You realise that this a) was a shambles recently and will be even more so with a very, very likely further spike in SarsCov2 activity come November ? And that the whole american in person system also systematically 'inconveniences' parts of it's population way more than others ?

Your election procedure is a tragedy and utter joke compared to other big democracies. The fact alone that it is still done on a workday due to some reasoning stemming from back when people thought wigs were fashionable and travelled by horse. If as few people voted here as in the US, we'd turn the whole system upside down to make sure it is easier to vote or simply register to do so (hint: it is veeeeery easy over here). The US ? Just chillin, you win some you loose some. Greatest democracy because peeeps 150 years ago thought so ! But at least this way only the committed folks vote ! (Read "the right folks")

U.S. voter turnout trails most developed countries | Pew Research Center

Now you add more 'inconvenience' because hey, fuck that pandemic, who cares ? Awesome. Land of the free ! Best democracy ever ! Decided by barely 50% of 'the people', what am inspiration to the world. We could only hope to be that democratic ...

Sadly, the people who need to read this will just breeze by it and think you don't know what you're talking about. Or, worse, already get that this is a feature not a bug and are happy with it.

SI

[JPhillips]

This guy is so broken.

Trump praises his late brother Robert for his lack of "jealousy" of him. Whether he "had the number one show," a great real estate deal or was becoming president, Trump says, Robert didn't show the jealousy that sometimes exists in families.

— Daniel Dale (@ddale8) August 17, 2020

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by whomario

Now you add more 'inconvenience' because hey, fuck that pandemic, who cares ? Awesome. Land of the free ! Best democracy ever ! Decided by barely 50% of 'the people', what am inspiration to the world. We could only hope to be that democratic ...

Most people I know are planning on showing up to vote, with masks, and standing 6' apart.

Regarding 50% voter turnout, that is very much due to apathy, not because of how hard it is to actually do it. I know many people that have valid ID cards for voting that do not even own a car. Most of them have those items because they are needed for more than voting. Most areas have absentee voting available as an option if getting to your polling place is an issue.

The sad fact is that for many Americans, voting is not important or they do not care.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by whomario

Your election procedure is a tragedy and utter joke compared to other big democracies. The fact alone that it is still done on a workday due to some reasoning stemming from back when people thought wigs were fashionable and travelled by horse. If as few people voted here as in the US, we'd turn the whole system upside down to make sure it is easier to vote or simply register to do so (hint: it is veeeeery easy over here). The US ? Just chillin, you win some you loose some. Greatest democracy because peeeps 150 years ago thought so ! But at least this way only the committed folks vote ! (Read "the right folks")

U.S. voter turnout trails most developed countries | Pew Research Center

I agree that voting day should be on a weekend or a holiday. I would very much also like voting to be compulsory (but even in your article, the countries with "compulsory" is lax in enforcement).

55% voted in 2016. Yes, there are exceptions but let's say the non-bell curve exceptions are another 25% (or a total of 80% that could relatively easily vote), meaning there are 25% of us that are just lazy, apathetic etc. to voting. If we got 80% voting we would be at the top of the Pew article.

In 2016, we had 2/5 already voted by mail, absentee and the other 3/5 by regular voting. The problem is not ability to vote for the lazy 25%, it is they don't care enough to vote.

So the discussion topic is if the Trump & Congress declines the requested additional +$3.5B for USPS, will that mean Trump will "steal" the election?

I don't think so. USPS can do many things to mitigate the temporary +1.4% spike over a 4 week period (e.g. they've shown they can do it for the Christmas holiday spike). And the default is show up to vote in person.

Your counter is what about the second wave. This presidential & congressional election is more important that BLM, Sturgis, Ozarks etc. I didn't hear much doom-and-gloom about coronavirus from Dems & BLM, or from GOP & Stugis, Ozarks. So people can go in an vote if it means enough to them.

Final note on voting in person. I mentioned previously that I took my daughter, her friend and me to vote in GA back on June 9. It was well organized, 6ft apart, masks, sanitization of voting booths etc. Obviously much, much smaller scale but not impossible.

Did we get a spike 2-4 weeks after? Not that I noticed.

Now you add more 'inconvenience' because hey, fuck that pandemic, who cares ? Awesome. Land of the free ! Best democracy ever ! Decided by barely 50% of 'the people', what am inspiration to the world. We could only hope to be that democratic ...

Definitely didn't miss the sarcasm. All I can say is I'm glad the US taught Germany well and you guys are in the 69%. If only we can wipe the slate clean and re-think elections all over again 70+ years ago.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

This guy is so broken.

None of this is shocking when you consider that he is a pathological narcissist. It's literally been the sort of thing we've been talking about for 4 years.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Most people I know are planning on showing up to vote, with masks, and standing 6' apart.

Regarding 50% voter turnout, that is very much due to apathy, not because of how hard it is to actually do it. I know many people that have valid ID cards for voting that do not even own a car. Most of them have those items because they are needed for more than voting. Most areas have absentee voting available as an option if getting to your polling place is an issue.

The sad fact is that for many Americans, voting is not important or they do not care.

Yeah, keep looking for americans to be uniquely responsible themselves and not the system stinking. Just like they are uniquely murderous (and not uniquely easily armed) etc, etc.

The fact remains it is less convenient by far than elsewhere and the result of this and other factors is that your great democracy gets less and less representative of it's actual population. You keep treating voting as sth that should require some sort of commitment rather than making it easier and wonder why people stop caring. This "apathy" is not sth that is inherent, it is being fostered for ages now.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by whomario

Yeah, keep looking for americans to be uniquely responsible themselves and not the system stinking. Just like they are uniquely murderous (and not uniquely easily armed) etc, etc.

Yep. This is 100% an intentional effort to lower voter turnout, and not just in this election. The state of Oregon has done the best job with their voter system (easy and proactive vote by mail for all), and they achieve 80%+ turnout in presidential elections and over 60% turnout in mid-term elections. (source: https://sos.oregon.gov/elections/Doc...l_Election.pdf)

The problem at a national level, and presumably often at a state level, is that more people voting will benefit one party over the other so there is an active push to discourage that. Usually this would benefit the democratic party, but I have no doubt in my mind that in a scenario where achieving 80% turnout might benefit republicans than democrats would push back just the same.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Most people I know are planning on showing up to vote, with masks, and standing 6' apart.

Your post history is littered with a myopic understanding of the US though, and with an active resistance to understand any perspective other than your own. People you know do it one way so anyone in the country that doesn't is apathetic. People you know, even some black people, make a good living, so anyone that doesn't is just not trying. The resistance to systemic issues is quite honestly staggering at this point (which is why I have generally stopped replying and trying to offer varying perspectives, but in this case feel its rather important to back up whomario who is trying).

[Radii]

Originally Posted by whomario

The fact remains it is less convenient by far than elsewhere and the result of this and other factors is that your great democracy gets less and less representative of it's actual population. You keep treating voting as sth that should require some sort of commitment rather than making it easier and wonder why people stop caring. This "apathy" is not sth that is inherent, it is being fostered for ages now.

There is added apathy in many circles because moderate democrats don't ACTUALLY help all that many people either, they just don't actively hurt them the same way that the republican party does, so why bother. I believe there is a push in this election because Trump is so openly and actively an evil human being to vote, so hopefully we see higher turnout, but Biden isn't going to actually do shit for the disenfranchised or those negatively effected by systemic issues across all of government. If it were easy to vote for everyone, and didn't take time and effort and there wasn't an active attempt to disenfranchise so many, maybe more folks in these categories would vote and progressive change would be possible.

[JPhillips]

I don't thin the problem is really Biden. I think he'd sign basically anything a Dem congress sent his way. That's where the real probem lies. Even if Dems take the Senate, they'll still not willing to pass meaningful reforms and they'll leave procedural hurdles in place that allow the GOP to control what gets passed.

Getting the right President is a lot easier than getting a congress that's willing to buck the moneied interests funding their campaigns.

[spleen1015]

I would never base my world view on just the people that I know. I mean, yikes.

The political system is this country is just broken. Presidential candidates can only be in 1 of 2 parties. So, every issue has to be put into one of those 2 buckets for it to matter. There is no place for you in the country if you are pro 2nd amendment and pro woman's choice for example.

Sanders and Biden have no business competing for the same nomination. They are different enough that they should both be allowed on the ballot.

I have no experience with other countries, but politics are very divisive in the US. There are a lot of people who base their opinion on people 100% on which side they're on.

Politicians as a whole are corrupt regardless of which side they're on. So, why even bother with it? There are a lot of people who feel this way.

@whomario you are right. We tout being the best country in the world, but we're really not so great.

[spleen1015]

dola,

It was said already.

Another reason our shit is so broken is because there are only 2 sides and one of those sides doesn't stand a chance in hell in winning if voting is easy. So, they don't want voting to be easy.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

We tout being the best country in the world, but we're really not so great.

I understand countries have different strengths and weaknesses in its political, economic, social, value, religious etc. fiber. And it is obviously very subjective as some factors are more important than others based on your background, values & experiences.

I've heard from others (e.g. Canada, Nordic countries) but don't remember yours. I respect that you may not want to engage on this topic but am interested in knowing, so my question is:

What top 2 countries do you think is "better" than the US in totality. Or in other words, if you could have been born and grow up in 1-2 other countries, which countries would they be?

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I understand countries have different strengths and weaknesses in its political, economic, social, value, religious etc. fiber. And it is obviously very subjective as some factors are more important than others based on your background, values & experiences.

I've heard from others (e.g. Canada, Nordic countries) but don't remember yours. I respect that you may not want to engage on this topic but am interested in knowing, so my question is:

What top 2 countries do you think is "better" than the US in totality. Or in other words, if you could have been born and grow up in 1-2 other countries, which countries would they be?

I'm pretty ignorant to the rest of the world. So, I doubt I could give an informed answer. I don't even think I am smart enough to really understand the issues enough to figure it out.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Radii

Yep. This is 100% an intentional effort to lower voter turnout, and not just in this election. The state of Oregon has done the best job with their voter system (easy and proactive vote by mail for all), and they achieve 80%+ turnout in presidential elections and over 60% turnout in mid-term elections. (source: https://sos.oregon.gov/elections/Doc...l_Election.pdf)

The problem at a national level, and presumably often at a state level, is that more people voting will benefit one party over the other so there is an active push to discourage that. Usually this would benefit the democratic party, but I have no doubt in my mind that in a scenario where achieving 80% turnout might benefit republicans than democrats would push back just the same.

It saddens me that 80% turnout is generally considered great turnout in the US.

[miked]

The system is so stupid it's amazing. We say it is the most important civic duty but we don't force employers to let you take off work and close polling places in inner cities (mostly in red states). So if you are working at McDonalds on Covington Hwy or Memorial Drive, not only do you have to show up for work for 8-12 hours, but also figure out where your polling place was moved to and stand in line for 6 hours.

I don't see any polling places being shuttered in Gwinnett or Cobb, or Pickens or the other redneck counties with few people. Only in the densely populated minority areas.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I agree that voting day should be on a weekend or a holiday. I would very much also like voting to be compulsory (but even in your article, the countries with "compulsory" is lax in enforcement).

I'd be fine with a holiday (tie it in with Veterans Day & make it patriotic if you want), but please no on the compulsory part. If a person doesn't care enough to vote I don't want their voice to count as much as those who take the small amount of effort & thought to get it done.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I understand countries have different strengths and weaknesses in its political, economic, social, value, religious etc. fiber. And it is obviously very subjective as some factors are more important than others based on your background, values & experiences.

I've heard from others (e.g. Canada, Nordic countries) but don't remember yours. I respect that you may not want to engage on this topic but am interested in knowing, so my question is:

What top 2 countries do you think is "better" than the US in totality. Or in other words, if you could have been born and grow up in 1-2 other countries, which countries would they be?

That entirely relies on what circumstances you are born into. I wouldn't want to be a regular Saudi, but if I'm a Prince, I probably do.

[Brian Swartz]

There might not be anything I agree with fewer people on than voting. I think it needs to be made as accessible as possible for those who vote, but I also think people should be required to have some 'skin in the game'. I.e., pass a basic citizenship test demonstrating they understand our system of government, as well as a limited civil service requirement.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by miked

The system is so stupid it's amazing. We say it is the most important civic duty but we don't force employers to let you take off work and close polling places in inner cities (mostly in red states). So if you are working at McDonalds on Covington Hwy or Memorial Drive, not only do you have to show up for work for 8-12 hours, but also figure out where your polling place was moved to and stand in line for 6 hours.

I don't see any polling places being shuttered in Gwinnett or Cobb, or Pickens or the other redneck counties with few people. Only in the densely populated minority areas.

Indeed. This stuff is so transparent. And unfortunately baked into the system - states control elections so it's hard for the federal government to do much on this.

Making an Election Day Holiday and aggressively prosecute states that try to limit voting places in minority address is the only thing we can really do now, IMO.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Indeed. This stuff is so transparent. And unfortunately baked into the system - states control elections so it's hard for the federal government to do much on this.

Making an Election Day Holiday and aggressively prosecute states that try to limit voting places in minority address is the only thing we can really do now, IMO.

And it needs to be done. Instead, we are going the opposite direction.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I understand countries have different strengths and weaknesses in its political, economic, social, value, religious etc. fiber. And it is obviously very subjective as some factors are more important than others based on your background, values & experiences.

I've heard from others (e.g. Canada, Nordic countries) but don't remember yours. I respect that you may not want to engage on this topic but am interested in knowing, so my question is:

What top 2 countries do you think is "better" than the US in totality. Or in other words, if you could have been born and grow up in 1-2 other countries, which countries would they be?

It really is a matter of a number of factors. Just on the surface though, I would say almost any Scandinavian country, and most definitely Canada.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

That entirely relies on what circumstances you are born into. I wouldn't want to be a regular Saudi, but if I'm a Prince, I probably do.

That's fair comment. For this exercise, assume your/parents current status. If you are lower, middle, upper class assume the same. If you are a minority in the US, assume the same. Like-for-like.

I think most of you know that I immigrated. The US was always my parents and my goal. From my background, values, experiences etc. the US is the country to be in warts and all.

I wouldn't want Canada, been there, too cold. I wouldn't have picked any EU country over the US growing up (although I would love to be in the EU when I retire so I can take the eurorail and travel to all the different countries). Can't think of any Asian countries offering better opportunities than the US.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

There might not be anything I agree with fewer people on than voting. I think it needs to be made as accessible as possible for those who vote, but I also think people should be required to have some 'skin in the game'. I.e., pass a basic citizenship test demonstrating they understand our system of government, as well as a limited civil service requirement.

You sound like a fan of Heinlein's Federation Civilian vs Citizen

[JPhillips]

Amazing, and unlikley that really anyone thinks this is untrue.

NEW: Testimonial ad from Trump's Former DHS Chief of Staff @MilesTaylorUSA, declaring his support for Joe Biden and describing Trump's presidency as "terrifying" and "actively doing damage to our security."

WATCH & go to https://t.co/Nz2NiSCquN for more. pic.twitter.com/iChqOdIIew

— Republican Voters Against Trump (@RVAT2020) August 17, 2020

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Edward64

You sound like a fan of Heinlein's Federation Civilian vs Citizen

A much softer version of it, but yes. I just think it's fundamentally unhealthy to have people whose virtually every action demonstrates that they don't really care about their fellow citizens determining policy. They should have the right to not care, but not to not care at all and also make decisions on an equal level with people who do. I don't think it's possible for that, on a long enough timeline, to not end in disaster and we're going to fall a lot further than we have now if we stay on the one person, one vote path.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

@whomario you are right. We tout being the best country in the world, but we're really not so great.

We will probably see a surge of foreign movies where the US are the "bad guy", because of Trump and the craziness that the guy has caused.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

There might not be anything I agree with fewer people on than voting. I think it needs to be made as accessible as possible for those who vote, but I also think people should be required to have some 'skin in the game'. I.e., pass a basic citizenship test demonstrating they understand our system of government, as well as a limited civil service requirement.

Living in the country gives you skin in the game.