The Trump Presidency – 2016

[spleen1015]

If some of these executive orders are illegal and the actions require Congressional approval, then how can the agencies put them in place without that approval?

Are folks just going to do it because he said so?

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

If some of these executive orders are illegal and the actions require Congressional approval, then how can the agencies put them in place without that approval?

Are folks just going to do it because he said so?

You mean like the Senate?
Or the Department of Justice?
Or the FBI?
Or the USPS?
Or the State Department?
Or Fox News?
Or the dozens of unqualified judges?
Or the SCOTUS?
Or the Federalists?
Or the Evangelicals?
Or the Constitutionalists?

The corrupt bastard has them all...I listen to his rants for when he legalizes hunting Democrats or unfavorable press.


Dictator Trump is coming...I keep listening to his rants because I'm waiting

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

If some of these executive orders are illegal and the actions require Congressional approval, then how can the agencies put them in place without that approval?

Are folks just going to do it because he said so?

There really isn't much to these executive orders IMO. One asks the federal government to see if there's anything it can do to stop evictions (unlikely). One is the option to defer payroll tax, which I don't see most businesses following under these circumstances. The unemployment insurance is using unspent funds to boost unemployment $300 a week until those funds run out (maybe a month, at best).

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

If some of these executive orders are illegal and the actions require Congressional approval, then how can the agencies put them in place without that approval?

Are folks just going to do it because he said so?

Trump can do whatever SCOTUS and the GOP Senate let him do. The GOPers in the Senate have already made clear that they're on board, so the court system is now the focus.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

If some of these executive orders are illegal and the actions require Congressional approval, then how can the agencies put them in place without that approval?

Are folks just going to do it because he said so?

That's what's been happening for decades under many Presidents. It's just getting worse now, but most people will do it because POTUS said so, chain of command and all that. Some of it can get struck down in the courts but that takes time and depends on the integrity of the justice system (also IMO declining). So those safeguards are becoming more and more theoretical than practical all the time. From my POV the only real practical deterrent to overreach remaining is overwhelming public opinion ... and well, it takes a lot to trigger that these days.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

From my POV the only real practical deterrent to overreach remaining is overwhelming public opinion ... and well, it takes a lot to trigger that these days.

The moment when he mocked a disabled person while his supporters at the rally laughed and cheered, and the millions of GOP voters at home said "Yup, he's our guy!" was the turning point, IMO.

I have no idea what makes that 39% of the country so scared and naive and angry. But, there they are.

And unless and until we can eliminate the structural issues that give them disproportionate influence over the levers of power, we are always going to be a few steps away from a competent Trump-type riding their fear and innocence into an actual dictatorship.

[JPhillips]

“President Trump does not have the power to unilaterally rewrite the payroll tax law. Under the Constitution, that power belongs to the American people acting through their members of Congress.”

This is interesting. I wonder if Sasse will stick with this as he sees more and more of the GOP stand in line behind Trump or if he'll quietly return to the shadows where he's been lurking the past four years.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Politically smart.

The executive orders are ferociously illegal. But the courts cannot just say that on a dime. His lawyers know how to keep things delayed for as long as needed.

So it is a bunch of shit that won’t do any good. But it sounds good to voters. And people will be suing Trump to stop him from doing the good thing.

He’s so stupid, that he might still fuck this up. But, honestly, as a cynical political play for a guy who’s down nine points in the polls? Pretty brilliant.

This is what I told my wife, too.

We all know he can't do this. But it doesn't matter. It forces the Dems to basically sue to keep him from doing illegal shit that sounds good to voters. This should be some sort of electoral suicide, but it's clearly not, and might even gain him some points in the polls. We really are living in crazy town all because there's a crazy president and a Senate that won't do crap all about it because it helps them.


SI

[RainMaker]

The way it is set up is interesting. The unemployment is coming out of disaster relief which he can give out. But it requires the states to pay in 25%. I don't know how many states will do that.

Payroll tax is worded so that it is just being deferred. So you'll still owe it next year. Likely a way to screw over Biden who would have to take over an economy where people are paying a lot in back taxes. He may be able to do this since he controls the IRS and can simply defer collection?

It seems like a wild hailmary that just creates more confusion. But it does pass the buck which is sort of his calling card at this point.

Probably the biggest news is him announcing getting rid of the payroll tax permanently if he is re-elected. Would bring an end to Social Security and Medicare. I guess you can't say he doesn't have a plan any longer.

[bhlloy]

The key is to shore up his base support - if the voters from 2016 that won him places like OH, MI and WI abandon ship he's got no shot. So this feels like a lot of red meat (at least if you don't read too much into it) in that direction. And with the state of politics today, does anything really matter other than the headlines and firing up the base?

The rest... hope for a hail mary, things to change significantly over the next 3 months (the virus goes away (right) or at least a vaccine is viable and he can procure it for the American people first) and what will probably be a lot of dirty tricks to try to hang in there, but this was both good for him, inevitable and a no brainer for where his candidacy was right now, IMO.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The way it is set up is interesting. The unemployment is coming out of disaster relief which he can give out. But it requires the states to pay in 25%. I don't know how many states will do that.

Ironically, I don't know how many red states could afford to opt into this even if they wanted to.

[ISiddiqui]

how can the agencies put them in place without that approval

All these agencies are Executive Branch agencies. People in them can try to raise objections, but in the end the President (and the Secretary of the agency) is the boss.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[JPhillips]

the Lord and Founding Fathers created executive orders because of partisan bickering and divided government. - Peter Navarro

I apparently need to study my Bible more.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Ironically, I don't know how many red states could afford to opt into this even if they wanted to.

are blue states in any better financial position?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I apparently need to study my Bible more.

Lisa: "Boy, mom sure will be happy you won 50 dollars."
Homer : "You'd think that wouldn't you? But you see, Lisa, your mother has this crazy idea that gambling is wrong. Even though they say it's OK in the bible."
Lisa: "Really? Where?"
Homer: "Uhh...somewhere in the back."

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

are blue states in any better financial position?

I think all states are pretty screwed with a dumb EO like this. Maybe some are more screwed than others, but it's kindof immaterial.

SI

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I apparently need to study my Bible more.

This doesn't ring a bell either?

And then Jesus held up a semi-automatic weapon retrofitted with a bump-stock and said to his disciples, “Take, shoot...whenever you shoot this, do this in remembrance of me.”

— Lucy Caldwell (@lucymcaldwell) August 9, 2020

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

The moment when he mocked a disabled person while his supporters at the rally laughed and cheered, and the millions of GOP voters at home said "Yup, he's our guy!" was the turning point, IMO.

I have no idea what makes that 39% of the country so scared and naive and angry. But, there they are.

And unless and until we can eliminate the structural issues that give them disproportionate influence over the levers of power, we are always going to be a few steps away from a competent Trump-type riding their fear and innocence into an actual dictatorship.

The problem is when you had two parties that were different sides of the same coin, moving in roughly the same direction, but at different speeds, you would have had a big shift in who to vote for.

When you have two parties moving away from one another, and some of the differences are judged to be major by the electorate, you're going to have people holding their nose and voting.

I cannot think of many that I know who voted or will vote for Trump that like him as a human being. However, they will vote for him over Biden because they do not want the Democrats in power, especially one as weak as Biden appears.

EDIT: I think we need to do away with the primary system, I think the old school manner of having the party bosses work things out and appoint the nominee might be better because they will more than likely pick a somewhat centrist candidate.

[ISiddiqui]

EDIT: I think we need to do away with the primary system, I think the old school manner of having the party bosses work things out and appoint the nominee might be better because they will more than likely pick a somewhat centrist candidate.

Then you should be happy with the Democrats choice. Because the primary voters voted for one of the most centrist candidates (and one a smoke filled room would have chosen)

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

The problem is when you had two parties that were different sides of the same coin, moving in roughly the same direction, but at different speeds, you would have had a big shift in who to vote for.

When you have two parties moving away from one another, and some of the differences are judged to be major by the electorate, you're going to have people holding their nose and voting.

I cannot think of many that I know who voted or will vote for Trump that like him as a human being. However, they will vote for him over Biden because they do not want the Democrats in power, especially one as weak as Biden appears.

EDIT: I think we need to do away with the primary system, I think the old school manner of having the party bosses work things out and appoint the nominee might be better because they will more than likely pick a somewhat centrist candidate.

Let's be honest here, it has little to do with Biden being perceived as weak. There's a fairly significant portion of the GOP that would trade every right guaranteed by the constitution if it meant keeping the 2nd ammendment and illegal abortions. Those people aren't voting dem regardless of the candidate.

[albionmoonlight]

I'm still in the "politically smart for Trump" camp for this.

There's another base-pleasing aspect that I just realize. A lot of Trump's base (not all Republicans, but the MAGA-base ones) do not see the Democrats as simply people who want what's best for the country but differ in how to get there than the GOP.

They see them as evil. They seem them as illegitimate.

So any deal that Trump makes with the Dems is going to hurt him to some degree with his base because any deal with the Democrats is--by definition--a betrayal of the real Americans.

The simple fact that Trump did what he did without the Dems matters more to those people than the actual details of the deal and whether it is good or bad.

I'm hoping to be proven wrong, but I think that a month from now we'll be looking back and agreeing that Trump got himself back in the race with his EOs.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I'm still in the "politically smart for Trump" camp for this.

There's another base-pleasing aspect that I just realize. A lot of Trump's base (not all Republicans, but the MAGA-base ones) do not see the Democrats as simply people who want what's best for the country but differ in how to get there than the GOP.

They see them as evil. They seem them as illegitimate.

So any deal that Trump makes with the Dems is going to hurt him to some degree with his base because any deal with the Democrats is--by definition--a betrayal of the real Americans.

The simple fact that Trump did what he did without the Dems matters more to those people than the actual details of the deal and whether it is good or bad.

I'm hoping to be proven wrong, but I think that a month from now we'll be looking back and agreeing that Trump got himself back in the race with his EOs.

I agree, to the point that I wonder if the stalled talks were a GOP strategy. This isn't going to pull in moderates, but that's not Trump's goal. Trump believes his path to victory is to get his base excited and fired up. It's not a winning strategy, but at this point they're looking for anything to cut into Biden's lead.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I agree, to the point that I wonder if the stalled talks were a GOP strategy. This isn't going to pull in moderates, but that's not Trump's goal. Trump believes his path to victory is to get his base excited and fired up. It's not a winning strategy, but at this point they're looking for anything to cut into Biden's lead.

I've been wondering this too. This way McConnell still gets to look like he stuck to his guns and doesn't piss off the Republican Senators and base who are against spending any more money. And Trump gets the credit for the move for those who like it, and god knows he needs a boost. You would think if McConnell wasn't thinking this way, he would have gone back to the table when he realized Trump really was going to act unilaterally.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I've been wondering this too. This way McConnell still gets to look like he stuck to his guns and doesn't piss off the Republican Senators and base who are against spending any more money. And Trump gets the credit for the move for those who like it, and god knows he needs a boost. You would think if McConnell wasn't thinking this way, he would have gone back to the table when he realized Trump really was going to act unilaterally.

McConnell definitely didn't want another stimulus so punting it over to Trump is perfect for him. If helps Trump then it helps keep control of the Senate. If it ends up hurting Trump he's hoping Senate can distance themselves from it.

It's a no win situation for McConnell, but this route is probably the lesser of the two evils as far as he's concerned.

[cuervo72]

I mean, that kind of ignores that this isn't going to make much of a real impact and everything is still going to hell though, right?

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

There's another base-pleasing aspect that I just realize. A lot of Trump's base (not all Republicans, but the MAGA-base ones) do not see the Democrats as simply people who want what's best for the country but differ in how to get there than the GOP.

They see them as evil. They seem them as illegitimate.

This is both sides. This is why our nation is in a freefall, when neighbors hate each other because of who they vote for. We really are no longer a country with shared goals or visions, because we each think the other "hates America" and wants to "destroy democracy" - each side is just taking America down in a different way.

I no longer have any hope for the future. I'm just going to keep to myself, go into turtle mode, and try to enjoy the rest of my life as best I can with my family. Hopefully I'll be dead before the country splits for good.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

This is both sides. This is why our nation is in a freefall, when neighbors hate each other because of who they vote for

I don't think that its a bothsides thing, at least not yet.

President Obama did everything possible to try to get one Republican to sign onto the ACA. One could argue that he lost a lot of political capital trying to make the bill bipartisan even when he had 60 Senators. Hell, he based the plan on the plan enacted by his GOP opponent.

And the democratic voters, when faced with a pretty decent field of candidates, pretty overwhelmingly went for "I can still work with the GOP" Biden over everyone else.

The Dems don't agree with GOP policies, but they still consider them a legitimate party. The MAGA base (not all Republicans) do not consider Dems legitimate.

Now, give us another few Merrick Garland type situations, and the Dems may end up in the same place. But I don't see them there yet.

[cuervo72]

Yeah, how can you (royal "you") "both sides" a situation where one side has gone off the rails and the other merely calls them out for going off the rails?

But yes, to follow on albion's thought - Trump has basically said that states and cities administered by Democrats are illegitimate. Because a system is only fair and democratic if, well, Republicans run it.

[RainMaker]

[quote=Warhammer;3294640]
I cannot think of many that I know who voted or will vote for Trump that like him as a human being. However, they will vote for him over Biden because they do not want the Democrats in power, especially one as weak as Biden appears.[/qupte]

Don't let them fool you. Those people want Trump, just too cowardly to admit it.

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Don't let them fool you. Those people want Trump, just too cowardly to admit it.

This.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Yeah, how can you (royal "you") "both sides" a situation where one side has gone off the rails and the other merely calls them out for going off the rails?

But yes, to follow on albion's thought - Trump has basically said that states and cities administered by Democrats are illegitimate. Because a system is only fair and democratic if, well, Republicans run it.

No, it's both sides. This has been going on for years before Trump. I hate what the Republican party has become and it needs to be blown up, but don't tell me the Dems and their "Dubya ought to be brought up on war crimes" BS from over a decade ago didn't happen, as an example. The demonization of both parties by the opposition has been going on for years.

There is no common purpose for the citizens of this country any more. Both sides believe only they have the right answer to how to govern and that the other side is evil and hates America. Just because the GOP has gone off the rails doesn't make that sentiment from both sides any less real. It just means the GOP is closer to proving the Dems point.

[JPhillips]

Kill one guy, go to jail. Kill a few hundred thousand Iraqis and publish a book of cute paintings.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Then you should be happy with the Democrats choice. Because the primary voters voted for one of the most centrist candidates (and one a smoke filled room would have chosen)

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

Clinton, Gore, Kerry, Obama, Clinton, Biden.

If none of those are moderate enough, it isn't the fault of the Dems.

[albionmoonlight]

There was, like, a five day period where the quirks of the primary calendar made it look like the Dems might actually nominate Bernie. And the Dem voters freaked the fuck out and made sure that Biden got it.

It is a solidly moderate party

[JPhillips]

Trump Considers Banning Re-entry by Citizens Who May Have Coronavirus
Under the proposal, the government could block a citizen or legal resident’s entry if an official “reasonably believes” the person had been exposed to or was infected with the communicable disease.

I'm pretty sure this would apply mostly to those with more melanin.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I'm pretty sure this would apply mostly to those with more melanin.

Wait until someone tells him that there are already suspected coronavirus cases in the country.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Rainmaker

Don't let them fool you. Those people want Trump, just too cowardly to admit it.

This runs contrary to almost all the data I've seen, both in polling and anecdotally. Do you have any evidence for this, or is it an assumption?

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

This runs contrary to almost all the data I've seen, both in polling and anecdotally. Do you have any evidence for this, or is it an assumption?

That people who are voting for Trump want Trump?

[GrantDawg]

JoE BiDeN HaS DeMEnTiA

The President says the “1917 pandemic” ended the Second World War pic.twitter.com/jSltuSYim2

— Acyn Torabi (@Acyn) August 10, 2020

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

That people who are voting for Trump want Trump?

Are you claiming that a historically high number of late-breaking undecided voters, a candidate with the worst approval numbers to ever become President since we started measuring such things, and a candidate with by far the fewest endorsements by his own party for a presidential nominee in modern history mean nothing in terms of who supported him and why? Or is there some other point that I'm not understanding that you are trying to make here?

[NobodyHere]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/11/europ...ntl/index.html

So would anyone here take this vaccine if offered right now?

I think I would wait a few months to make sure the vaccine doesn't kill more than the virus does.

[PilotMan]

I know two things about this vaccine.

1) it doesn't cause gayness.

2) there are no gays in Russia.

So that's important to remember.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

So would anyone here take this vaccine if offered right now?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/11/europ...ntl/index.html

So would anyone here take this vaccine if offered right now?

I think I would wait a few months to make sure the vaccine doesn't kill more than the virus does.

no.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I see so much of that in some people I know too. I can't imagine having a mindset that with 1,000 people dying a day, doctors wouldn't know that vitamin C cures you, or would withhold this information if they did. There is such paranoia in the American mindset.

.

I have stopped trying to figure out why people think the way they do and just accepted the fact that a large portion of out country is just plain stupid.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I have stopped trying to figure out why people think the way they do and just accepted the fact that a large portion of out country is just plain stupid.

I agree, but we have also bred some of this mentality with the unethical behavior of pharma companies.

The Valeant saga issue being the most prominent, but when marginally educated populations hear those stories, it isnt a bridge too far to jump to ...not only will they charge 5,000x the market rate they will also sell me a drug that a simple vitamin could do the same. Or not tell me the vitamin would so they could sell me the drug.

Educated even semi-sophisticated minds can differentiate the two, regardless of ethical opinions of either, but remember we still have a significant population that doesnt believe smoking is harmful to their health. Is it really shocking they believe Vit C can cure this?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

JoE BiDeN HaS DeMEnTiA

The President says the “1917 pandemic” ended the Second World War pic.twitter.com/jSltuSYim2

— Acyn Torabi (@Acyn) August 10, 2020

I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he misspoke, problem is his entire campaign right now is built on Biden doing similar things and Trump and his supporters will crush him every chance.

[albionmoonlight]

Trump's key jangling is going to get louder and louder.

Will the media keep reporting what's actually going on?

Or will they, once again, get distracted by "Look everyone! Trump's talking about doing something CRAZY!"?

I am sure that we all have COVID fatigue. But unless and until the President starts doing the things that every other country has done to start to reduce COVID, that needs to be the headline story, even if he wants to "Build More Wall!"

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/11/europ...ntl/index.html

So would anyone here take this vaccine if offered right now?

I think I would wait a few months to make sure the vaccine doesn't kill more than the virus does.

No way and I'm sure Trump will gladly take Russia up on their offer, before the election of course.

[molson]

I love that they named it Sputnik-V.

Obviously it hasn't been through the appropriate trials, but one thing I've learned about the vaccines in progress is that it's not like they've been in development all this time. All of the major vaccine candidates that everyone is optimistic about are the same vaccines now, and will be the same vaccines next year, that they were in April. And everyone expects them to be effective at least to some degree. And Russia does have a centuries-old history of vaccine development, and apparently had a head start on this one. Plus they've probably hacked data from existing trials in other country. So shit, I hope Russia's is effective and relatively safe. I wonder if we'll ever know though, because I imagine it won't be used outside of Russia.

Edit: And I think there's something lost in translation, and Russia is of course trying desperately to be "first", but their vaccine is starting Phase 3 now, it won't actually be distributed for a few months. So it really won't be that far ahead of the others, if at all.