The Official 2013 MLB Thread

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Arles

you could even argue the Packers have this to a certain extent.

As a non-Packer fan born and raised in Wisconsin and still residing in Wisconsin I'd say it's more than a certain extent.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Originally Posted by Arles

Outside of being the thread court jester, what is the argument you are making?

The argument I'm making is that people dislike the Cardinals and their fans for reasons in addition to the Cardinals success. I feel like this has been pretty clear, but obviously you don't agree. When I stated that the arguments you were making were proving my point you threw your hands in the air so it looks to me like we're at an impasse; we are both convinced the Cardinals are disliked for our own reasons.

[PilotMan]

Wow the fuck got blown out of this thread today.

Jon's list is pretty damn spot on and for the right reasons.

I'll add that losing teams are generally in the we don't care stage because their fanbase is usually too quiet for anyone to notice, so yes, winning does matter.

Third, when a team starts to win the real shit heads of the fanbase rear their heads and that becomes the new basis for dislike.

Example from Yahoo today:

St. Louis Cardinals Are Getting Pushed Around by Los Angeles Dodgers' Antics - Yahoo Sports

You have to think that the problems the Cards had with numerous other teams this year had more to do with the Cards, and less to do with their opponents. Yes competition does that too.

Last, the fans that totally deny that any of this actually exists are in denial and just add fuel to the fire for the rest of us.

For me, I hate the Cards. It's got nothing to do with the fans, although I can see where that comes from. But also being a Steeler fan I understand where they are coming from because it's an easy life inside the bubble when your team is doing well. You kind of revel in the hatred.

My hatred just goes back to my childhood, where I'll never forgive them for breaking my heart in '85. For me, all bad things for LA have stemmed from that moment.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs3

The argument I'm making is that people dislike the Cardinals and their fans for reasons in addition to the Cardinals success. I feel like this has been pretty clear, but obviously you don't agree. When I stated that the arguments you were making were proving my point you threw your hands in the air so it looks to me like we're at an impasse; we are both convinced the Cardinals are disliked for our own reasons.

I'm not saying it's 100% success. Obviously as you win more, the more chance you have for your "asshat minority" to show their face. But, the Cards have been this "arbiter of how baseball should be played" for decades. But there wasn't the hatred in the 90s or even early 2000s when we had the biggest example of that (Tony LaRussa) as there is now with a much more mild-mannered Mike Matheny. The fans are the same for the most part, the manager is even more tame and we don't have nearly the "negative players" we used to (namely Jim Edmonds, JD Drew, Andy Benes, Isringhausen, Scott Rolen, ...). Yet, the team is hated more by all accounts. At some point, you have to look at success as the major factor. Unless you think Mike Methany isn't nearly as loveable as Tony LaRussa.

[molson]

And of course, the reason we're even talking about the Cardinals as the "arbiter of how baseball should be played" on October 17th is that the Cardinals are still playing. They have a disproportionate slice of the baseball discussion pie because they're really good and they're still playing in late October. We wouldn't have all these Bleacher Report articles and satire and teeth gnashing over them right now if they didn't make the playoffs. I'm sure if the Cubs or or Mets or Phillies were here instead, there would be discussion about those fanbases, and all the reasons to dislike those teams, and nobody would give a shit about the Cardinals. The topic of Phillies/Philadelphia fans, if I remember, was a pretty hot topic around here when they were winning.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Originally Posted by molson

No, because I said there may be exceptions (though nobody's come up with a very convincing one), but that there's still a strong correlation between winning/relevance and the passion of viewpoints expressed about a team, both good and bad. Winning, which is closely related to relevance, is by far the most important factor, which almost every other reason to "hate" a team flows from. What reasons do people hate teams that have absolutely nothing to do with the success and relevance of a team?

In order to be really hated, a team has to be good. I don't think a team being good means really hated.

Examples brought up in this thread but dismissed for one reason or another:
Recent SF Giants
Recent NY Giants
Baltimore Ravens
Mid/Late 90s Braves
Early 90s Blue Jays
San Antonio Spurs

Reasons a team is hated independent of success:
Perceived behavior of fanbase
Overexposure
Dislike of leading players (Heat)
Financial Disparities

No one cares about teams that lose, but not all winners are hated equally. This all started because Arles dismissed criticism of the Cards as envy over success, and people disagreed.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

This isn't about being the arbiter of what is right in baseball.

The comment that started this is "the world is finally catching on to what a bunch of smug, self-satisfied humorless dicks that you are."

My doubts about the veracity of the statement are fewer than when it was first made.

[SirFozzie]

Wow. Napoli absolutely CRUSHED that one. Hit to the deepest part of the ballpark, and it was a no doubter.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs3

In order to be really hated, a team has to be good. I don't think a team being good means really hated.

Examples brought up in this thread but dismissed for one reason or another:
Recent SF Giants

The Giants really only had two good seasons over the past 7-8. A bit like the football Giants, they kind of came out of nowhere and then disappeared back into irrelevance. If the SF Giants run off a couple more playoff runs here in the next few then the hatred will increase.

Recent NY Giants
Baltimore Ravens

There's a lot of hatred towards both. Just say "Eli" and half the football fans want to throw up. Look at some old threads on this forum about Eli and the venom he creates. Same goes for Ray Lewis, Suggs and Ed Reed. And, again, it's not like these teams are always in the AFC or NFC finals like the Cards have done 5 of the past 7 seasons.

Mid/Late 90s Braves
Early 90s Blue Jays

The Braves are the best example. I don't remember them being hated but I would compare them to the Bills of the 90s in that they were often the Bridesmaid and not the Bride. Had the Braves won 2-3 World Series in that time I think the hatred would have increased.

San Antonio Spurs

Outside of the Lakers and maybe the big 3 Celtics, the Spurs are probably the most hated NBA team before Lebron joined Wade. There were a ton of mock articles about David "Spur"n, Manu Ginosebleed, Mrs. Longaria Parker - not to mention guys like Horry. They were pretty well reviled the year they beat the Suns and Nash with the Horry hipcheck.

I'm sure other things contribute a bit, but success is the main component.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Love the symmetry of Ross running into Avila after getting run into himself. Glad neither hurt.

[Arles]

To follow up, I don't think every team that wins a title is "hated". I don't think the first Sox team or the Cards team of 06 were hated. I think that once you have sustained success you become more and more disliked. There are many reasons, but success is the precursor.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by VPI97

I go back to the 80's when you had Whitey Herzog and hateable guys like Joaquin Andujar, Jack Clark and Ozzie Smith.

I never considered Bruce Sutter or George Hendrick to be very cuddly either.

ETA: or as Jon and I previously discussed, Terry Pendlefuck.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I think the Phillies are more than just "they suck now". In the late 90s, there was much less hate than usual for the Phillies, even though they were very successful. The reason seemingly was that the the new stadium mitigated fan douchiness somewhat. Let Veteran's Stadium was just a magnet for douche!

Wait, what? Very successful? Late 90s? That's news to me.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

I never considered Bruce Sutter or George Hendrick to be very cuddly either.

ETA: or as Jon and I previously discussed, Terry Pendlefuck.

I still contend that none compare to Keith Hernandez.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Arles

I'm not saying it's 100% success. Obviously as you win more, the more chance you have for your "asshat minority" to show their face. But, the Cards have been this "arbiter of how baseball should be played" for decades. But there wasn't the hatred in the 90s or even early 2000s when we had the biggest example of that (Tony LaRussa) as there is now with a much more mild-mannered Mike Matheny. The fans are the same for the most part, the manager is even more tame and we don't have nearly the "negative players" we used to (namely Jim Edmonds, JD Drew, Andy Benes, Isringhausen, Scott Rolen, ...). Yet, the team is hated more by all accounts. At some point, you have to look at success as the major factor. Unless you think Mike Methany isn't nearly as loveable as Tony LaRussa.

I hated the LaRussa Cards.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs3

Love the symmetry of Ross running into Avila after getting run into himself. Glad neither hurt.

Back to the Puig debate, how Ross handled that situation is exactly how it should be done. Go hard at the catcher and when you are out - show respect by slapping him on the ass or tipping your cap. He didn't wag his finger at him and talk smack. Difference between a guy who gets it and a punk

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by Arles

The Giants really only had two good seasons over the past 7-8. A bit like the football Giants, they kind of came out of nowhere and then disappeared back into irrelevance. If the SF Giants run off a couple more playoff runs here in the next few then the hatred will increase.

The Giants were originally brought up because of Bonds.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Arles

But, the Cards have been this "arbiter of how baseball should be played" for decades.:

This is why people hate the Cards fans. Any fanbase who appoints themselves "the arbiter of how baseball should be played" will come off as arrogant and pretentious.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Arles

Outside of being the thread court jester, what is the argument you are making?

Comments like this don't help.

[Butter]

The hits keep coming... this one, while not egregious, does have all the buzzwords in there that mark annoyance without outright saying it:

Strauss: Culture clash pits bravado, team respect : Sports

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Arles

People used to hate the Mets when I grew up. Now, no one cares and they are even in a big market. Winning is the main prequisite. After that happens, the opinion starts to decrease over time.

Umm... People used to hate the Mets in the 80s because they had a bunch of assholes on the team (I'm a Mets fan, FWIW). Heck, there is a book written about the 1986 Mets by Jeff Pearlman (not exactly some hack) titled "The Bad Guys Won".

[molson]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Heck, there is a book written about the 1986 Mets by Jeff Pearlman (not exactly some hack) titled "The Bad Guys Won".

How'd the team do that year?

Edit: Your point would make a little more sense if Pearlman wrote a book about say, the 1988 Indians. Or even the 1985 Mets. Somehow I don't think he'd get a publisher though. I'm sure there were plenty of players who did mountains of cocaine and trashed hotel rooms in the 80s. But the team that matters is the the winning one.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

I swear I must be missing something in this conversation. Why wasn't there hatred of the 85 Royals or 87 Twins? Why didn't Pearlman write about them? They won too.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs3

I swear I must be missing something in this conversation. Why wasn't there hatred of the 85 Royals or 87 Twins? Why didn't Pearlman write about them? They won too.

I think you were arguing something different than ISiddiqui. I don't disagree with anything you said. Obviously not all world series winning teams are hated equally, some have their own special characteristics that take them to a whole new level of notoriety. Winning is the base factor I think that has to be there, but winning doesn't guarantee any certain high, Met-level degree of public anger. ISiddiqui has been saying, I think, that the hatred of Yankees and 1986 Mets and others has nothing or little to do with those teams' success.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Gotcha. Was conflating yours and Arles opinions.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by molson

Obviously not all world series winning teams are hated equally, some have their own special characteristics that take them to a whole new level of notoriety.

You say this, but then it seems like you fight like mad trying to say how successful teams are all hated.

Esp when no one is saying losing teams are hated (well, unless they are the Yankees or Notre Dame)

[ISiddiqui]

Btw, the other funny thing about the 80s Mets... they probably had less success than the San Francisco Giants of the last 5 years (the 80s Mets won a decent number of games, but only made the playoffs twice and only won once). But the Mets were hated due to the success and the SF Giants haven't had enough sustained success... hmmm..

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Btw, the other funny thing about the 80s Mets... they probably had less success than the San Francisco Giants of the last 5 years (the 80s Mets won a decent number of games, but only made the playoffs twice and only won once). But the Mets were hated due to the success and the SF Giants haven't had enough sustained success... hmmm..

I'm done with Arles on this but suffice it to say his dismissal of the other teams above is cherry-picked nonsense.

[BishopMVP]

Just in case anyone thinks I only question other teams managers for making unnecessary moves that have no effect on their teams chances of winning, I'd love to hear John Farrell explain his pinch-running strategy. Last week, he pinch-ran Xander for Middlebrooks, and then last night he pinch ran Middlebrooks for Xander, with Quentin Berry on the bench.

Go LA tonight - I'd rather see the Red Sox play an afternoon game Saturday so I can watch FSU/Clemson too.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Put Xander in for WMB when he needs offense, WMB in for Xander with a lead, save Berry for extras?

Still doesn't explain PRing Xander for WMB though.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs3

Put Xander in for WMB when he needs offense, WMB in for Xander with a lead, save Berry for extras?

Still doesn't explain PRing Xander for WMB though.

Pretty much, except he could have just waited until after the inning to put WMB in on defense. (Answer is he was probably thinking back to the 3rd? inning when X made that rookie mistake of staying near 2nd on the Ross double, but making moves based off the one previous play is the apex of bad managing. to cap it, WMB nearly ran himself into an out but was saved by the umpire.) You also then had the Victorino at-bat where Vic was bunting until he got 1 strike and it was called off (pretty bad AB by Victorino after that - you have to know they're not throwing anything near the strike zone with 1st base open in that situation.)

One thing's even more clear by now though - Xander should be starting every game the rest of the way. Only question is which of WMB/Drew do you bench each day. And if we can get past Johnny Gomes' intangibles and put Daniel Nava in the lineup vs. righties that'd be great too.

Top OBP's vs. R this season, in order

Joey Votto, Shin Soo-Choo, David Ortiz, Mike Trout, Miggy Cabrera, Chris Davis, Daniel Nava, Matt Carpenter, Freddie Freeman, Joe Mauer, Paul Goldschmidt, Robinson Cano, Mike Cuddyer, Hanley Ramirez. It's be insane if a manager benched any of those other guys, right?

[Arles]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Btw, the other funny thing about the 80s Mets... they probably had less success than the San Francisco Giants of the last 5 years (the 80s Mets won a decent number of games, but only made the playoffs twice and only won once). But the Mets were hated due to the success and the SF Giants haven't had enough sustained success... hmmm..

You guys aren't arguing my point. I will try to map it out a bit:

1. Start with success. As the success increases, so does the hatred. Sustained success (4-7 straight season of playoff/WS teams) is the biggest factor to the hatred.

2. After success, you then look at existing hatred bias. IE, if the Yankees win 5 straight seasons, they will be more hated than the Royals if they had the same performance because people already hate them. This bias is usually based on perceived advantages (ie, higher payroll/market) and how they have done in the past.

3. 1 and 2 are about 80% of the hatred, the final 20% is based on other factors like a sour puss manager, bad guys/showboats on the team, fan asshatedness (new word, I know) and maybe crazy events. A lot of teams dislike the 1985 Royals because of the bad call at first base by the ump. Doesn't mean the Royals were "bad guys", just that they are viewed by some to have won through a bad call.

If hatred was purely based on success, people would hate the Cardinals and Giants 1 and 2 right now as they have won the last 3 World Series. But, most of the polls show neither team in the top 5 as the Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies and Dodgers were among the top in the few I've seen online. All four have had success, but also have huge payrolls and prior biases going against them.

[Logan]

Please show your work on coming up with the 80% hatred figure. Otherwise, I'm afraid these last three pages have been a big waste.

[ISiddiqui]

I'm thinking the 80% isn't sabermetrically calculated.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Arles

Hence, all successful teams end up becoming hated for a combination of jealously, aggravation at that obnoxious minority and just a sense of wanting to see someone else make it.

Originally Posted by Arles

If hatred was purely based on success, people would hate the Cardinals and Giants 1 and 2 right now as they have won the last 3 World Series. But, most of the polls show neither team in the top 5 as the Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies and Dodgers were among the top in the few I've seen online. All four have had success, but also have huge payrolls and prior biases going against them.

If ALL successful teams end up being hated for a combination of jealousy, aggravation of obnoxious minority and having someone else make it - there are too many squads that slip through the cracks - Giants and Cardinals you've mentioned were two (Cards may be higher now after their feud with the Dodgers way of playing). And I don't really know of anyone aside from Dodgers fans (and maybe New York baseball fans) who hate the Giants.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Arles

Cardinals Fans dislike the 1985 Royals because of the bad call at first base by the ump.

FTFY.

In fact, I believe RD3 just pointed out a few posts ago that they aren't as disliked as a peer club (86 Mets)

SI

[Arles]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

FTFY.

In fact, I believe RD3 just pointed out a few posts ago that they aren't as disliked as a peer club (86 Mets)

SI

MLB Power Rankings: The 15 Most Hated Teams in Baseball History | Bleacher Report

#9 on this list

[Arles]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

If ALL successful teams end up being hated for a combination of jealousy, aggravation of obnoxious minority and having someone else make it - there are too many squads that slip through the cracks - Giants and Cardinals you've mentioned were two (Cards may be higher now after their feud with the Dodgers way of playing). And I don't really know of anyone aside from Dodgers fans (and maybe New York baseball fans) who hate the Giants.

I think the disconnect is on the term "success". The Giants made the playoffs twice in the last 10 years (just won the WS both times). Phillies, Red Sox and Yankees have all had more sustained success and that contributes to their being on the hated lists.

The Cardinals are really the only outlier. They have had a lot of success the past 10 years (7 playoff, 6 NLCS, 3 WS, 2 WS wins) and rarely show up on the top of most hated baseball team lists. So, maybe they are so loveable that EVEN with enormous amounts of success, people still don't hate them on the level their success would equate.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Arles

MLB Power Rankings: The 15 Most Hated Teams in Baseball History | Bleacher Report

#9 on this list

Well, it's on Bleacher Report and the list includes the pathetic 1988 Orioles and 2003 Tigers and inexplicably the 1992 Blue Jays. I'm sold!

SI

[Arles]

BTW, is there any list that shows baseball fans do, in fact, hate the Cardinals? Seems like this may be a faulty premise to begin with. All we really have is a couple spoof articles on Grantland and some other Deadspin-style sites. I haven't seen a list that shows the Cards as a heavily hated team when compared to other baseball squads.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Arles

BTW, is there any list that shows baseball fans do, in fact, hate the Cardinals? Seems like this may be a faulty premise to begin with. All we really have is a couple spoof articles on Grantland and some other Deadspin-style sites. I haven't seen a list that shows the Cards as a heavily hated team when compared to other baseball squads.

Cards tied for 5th (with 7 other teams) in national poll asking "who do you least want to see in the world series). Of course they pulled 3% of the vote while the Yankees "won" with 42% but still.

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/New...5/Default.aspx

[cuervo72]

Yes, that report is completely scientific!

(Arles' Bleacher Report one)

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Arles

I think the disconnect is on the term "success". The Giants made the playoffs twice in the last 10 years (just won the WS both times). Phillies, Red Sox and Yankees have all had more sustained success and that contributes to their being on the hated lists.

The Cardinals are really the only outlier. They have had a lot of success the past 10 years (7 playoff, 6 NLCS, 3 WS, 2 WS wins) and rarely show up on the top of most hated baseball team lists. So, maybe they are so loveable that EVEN with enormous amounts of success, people still don't hate them on the level their success would equate.

You seem to be changing your definitely of "success" when it suits your argument. You stated that the Mets were hated when you were a kid, I assume the 80s. If they made the playoffs twice in 10 years (winning the World Series once) how does that jive with the fact that the SF Giants made the playoffs twice in 10 years and won the WS twice and weren't hated?

It is my contention that hatred involves more than simply mere success.

I mean, heck, the Yankees teams of the late 90s, when they kept winning World Series after World Series, were arguably less hated than the Yankees teams of the early 2000s. There was this argument that the late 90s Yankees were "hard to hate" because of classy players on their roster that came up through the farm system (or were traded for before they were stars) like Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Bernie Williams, Paul O'Neil, Andy Petitte, etc. This changed when they started bringing in a lot of free agent douches.

[Chief Rum]

I must admit, y'all have outdone yourselves. This is one of the stupidest Internet arguments I have started to read, stopped because of the inanity of it all, and desperately waited for it to end all year.

Any chance we can get back to talking baseball?

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

I miss hating the Angels

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Any chance we can get back to talking baseball?

No. Obviously all the teams still in the playoffs are successful, so we hate them all!

[Arles]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

No. Obviously all the teams still in the playoffs are successful, so we hate them all!

But not all of them have achieved "sustained success", so they all may not be as hated as you would think

Anyrate, this is becoming a little tiresome.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs3

I miss hating the Angels

I miss the Angels being a team worthy of your hatred.

Strangely enough, I kinda like this Red Sox team, the players on it. So while I am still rooting for the Tigers because of Torii, I won't be put out all that much if the Red Sox move on to the Series.

Some Angels news and a funny story. The Angels just hired Don Baylor to be their hitting coach. He of course was a key bat for the good Angels teams of the late 70s-early 80s, and won the 1979 AL MVP with them.

In one of his last years with the team, I think 1983, Baylor hit a game winning homerun against the Brewers really early in the season, April some time, much to my 11-year-old happiness.

Later on that year, my Dad took me to a Baylor autograph signing at a baseball card shop. This was maybe July or August of that same season. I stepped up to Baylor in line with my Dad, and gave him my Baylor card for him to sign. And I asked him what it was like hitting that GW homerun. Baylor signed me card and just looked at me quizzically. He said something like, "I did that huh?" He honestly couldn't remember. I just nodded my head stupidly at him. So he gives this big laugh and turns to the guy behind him (maybe his agent, maybe an Angels PR guy/handler) and says, "Hey, this kid knows me better than I do!"

So, that was pretty awesome.

[PilotMan]

Well, just in case there was any doubt......I hate the fucking Cardinals.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

No. Obviously all the teams still in the playoffs are successful, so we hate them all!

Seriously, I could give a crap who wins. Really I'm expecting it to be the Red Sox, and I only marginally dislike the others less (probably Cards, Tigers, then Dodgers).