*World Cup Game Discussion Thread* (SPOILERS)

[Vince]

Sheesh.

[AlexB]

A perfect example - yes it was a foul, but why was it a booking?

[cartman]

Wow. 4 reds in a knockout game. Unreal.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Jari Rantanen's Shorts

One answer might be to remind refs that just because it is a foul, and a FK, it is not necessarily a yellow card.

best solution i've seen so far

[DaddyTorgo]

unfortunately England shouldn't have a problem beating Portugal in the next round, without Deco and Costinha and possibly C. Ronaldo .

i say unfortunately because i'd really rather England not advance

[cartman]

All this game lacks is for the ref to blow the final whistle as the game tying shot is in the air.

[MrBug708]

Damn

[AlexB]

MIJB - when you read this, while I am pleased England don't have to play the Dutch, to go out of the WC like that sucks. I sympathise for how you must be feeling

[Katon]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

unfortunately England shouldn't have a problem beating Portugal in the next round, without Deco and Costinha and possibly C. Ronaldo .

i say unfortunately because i'd really rather England not advance

And with everyone who was on the pitch at the end exhausted, too. That ref's England's player of the tournament so far.

[Katon]

Originally Posted by Jari Rantanen's Shorts

MIJB - when you read this, while I am pleased England don't have to play the Dutch, to go out of the WC like that sucks. I sympathise for how you must be feeling

Ditto.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Jari Rantanen's Shorts

MIJB - when you read this, while I am pleased England don't have to play the Dutch, to go out of the WC like that sucks. I sympathise for how you must be feeling

Is he going to go out and punch a windmill now? I don't remember seeing too many trees in southern Netherlands.

[cthomer5000]

I would love to hear the explanation on not playing Van Nistelrooy

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by cartman

Is he going to go out and punch a windmill now? I don't remember seeing too many trees in southern Netherlands.

A Dyke!

[cartman]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I would love to hear the explanation on not playing Van Nistelrooy

Ditto. I don't envy Van Baasten with the media and fan scrutiny he's going to get.

[Oilers9911]

Move over Italy, we have a new worst divers and cheaters award. Hello Portugal. Disgusting display.

[AlexB]

16 yellow cards, 4 red cards - FIFA stats say there were 25 fouls in the game. That means there were only 9 fouls in the game that weren't yellow cards

Despite defending referee's earlier in this thread, this guy can have no defense, and again, it's not his first time

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by cartman

Ditto. I don't envy Van Baasten with the media and fan scrutiny he's going to get.

I'm not even a Dutch fan, and I want to know what the hell he was thinking. You need one goal and you have a world class striker sitting on the bench, and you leave Kuyt in there?!? Sheesh.

RVN better have an unreported broken leg or something (unlikely, since he was walking around on the side).

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I would love to hear the explanation on not playing Van Nistelrooy

Me too.

As far as the ref, I think that is the worst match in regard to a referee that I've ever seen.

[Critch]

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

Move over Italy, we have a new worst divers and cheaters award. Hello Portugal. Disgusting display.

I didn't think Portugal were any worse than the Dutch. I also didn't think any of the red cards were undeserved, Gio's was the closest to being soft.

The refereee may have been flashing the yellow, but that's the fifa directive. The players lost control, both federations should be fined for it.

[Critch]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

RVN better have an unreported broken leg or something (unlikely, since he was walking around on the side).

Even with a broken leg he'd be a deadlier striker than Kuyt.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Me too.

As far as the ref, I think that is the worst match in regard to a referee that I've ever seen.

Thing is, the actual decisions on whether it was a foul or not, I actually think he got right pretty much every time. But, and I know this is the third time I've mentioned this in a row, why show a yellow every time?

25 fouls in a game is low, and yet there was a WC record number of cards? This is where he let himself down

[Oilers9911]

Originally Posted by Critch

I didn't think Portugal were any worse than the Dutch. I also didn't think any of the red cards were undeserved, Gio's was the closest to being soft.

The refereee may have been flashing the yellow, but that's the fifa directive. The players lost control, both federations should be fined for it.

The Dutch were not innocent by any means but over the course of the whole tournament the Portuguese flop and dive and fall like they have been shot when anyone comes near them. It is pitiful football and a disgrace to the game and to them. They are a great team with tremendous skill but they are outright cheaters.

[cartman]

For all the talk about FIFA refs calling the games as FIFA has asked them to, I still haven't seen anyone carded for diving, which was one of the areas that was supposed to be scrutinized this time as well.

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by Jari Rantanen's Shorts

Thing is, the actual decisions on whether it was a foul or not, I actually think he got right pretty much every time. But, and I know this is the third time I've mentioned this in a row, why show a yellow every time?

25 fouls in a game is low, and yet there was a WC record number of cards? This is where he let himself down

I agree 100%. And FIFA is PARTLY to blame for this.

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by cartman

For all the talk about FIFA refs calling the games as FIFA has asked them to, I still haven't seen anyone carded for diving, which was one of the areas that was supposed to be scrutinized this time as well.

It's so difficult to card someone for diving. If there was ANY contact whatsoever you can't card that.

[MIJB#19]

So, can someone tell me what sport I was watching? I think our guys sucked at it.

We didn't play like a top8 team throughout the tournament. I can't really feel like we got knocked out earlier than we should have. We lucked a bit holding Serbia and Ivory Coast to 1 goal combined. Then the 0-0 vs Argentina was a friendly. Today? I'm not sure it can be called soccer.

Media?
The media was (and will be even more now) all over the chance of play style. This team didn't play 'our' traditional kind of play. In stead, we played like the style we (used to) dispise. In the end, we went out like a team we dispise. Van Nistelrooij not starting will be all over the news. Kuijt worked hard, but looked ready for a substitution after 60 mins. Van Basten is a living legend though, no doubt he's going to stay. And no, the referee won't be blamed, that's not how things go here. When you lose it's a lack of effort, luck or quality. It'll be thrown into a mix of that.

[AlexB]

Robben had one in the first game, and Graham Poll booked somebody IIRC, but yes - overall there have been a lot more dives than yellows.

If I was FIFA, I would retrospectivlely punish dives and playacting, and #1 directive: anybody who waves an imaginary card at the referee immediately gets a real one in return.

Cheating is becoming a big problem and should be pushed: two slightly mistimed tackles should not mean game over (as long as the player was trying to play the ball and neither was dangerous - you should not be sent off for being skinned twice by a more skilful player if you are genuinely trying to tackle him)

[tanglewood]

I have to admit MIJB, it was very odd to see Holland just lumping the ball up to the big man for the last 10 mins. I don't think I've ever seen a Dutch team do that, ever. I think Portugal deserved to go through overall, they were the better side in the first half, and even in the second half when they were down a man for much of it, they defended very compactly and broke well on the counter too.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by cartman

For all the talk about FIFA refs calling the games as FIFA has asked them to, I still haven't seen anyone carded for diving, which was one of the areas that was supposed to be scrutinized this time as well.

I remember two:
Tunisian striker Jazira got a yellow for diving, he got sent off with a second one later on in that game.
Dutchman Robben got yellow for diving, even though he was sandwiched in the area. (He did deserve yellow for bad acting. )

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by MattJones4Heisman

It is fine compared to past world cups here. It is atrocious when compared to knowledgeable broadcasters elsewhere in the world.

To be fair, other broadcasters elsewhere in the world don't have to deal with the 'knowledge' (or lack thereof) of the casual American viewer. I'm sure they have been told many times to play up some of the 'storylines'.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

I have to admit MIJB, it was very odd to see Holland just lumping the ball up to the big man for the last 10 mins. I don't think I've ever seen a Dutch team do that, ever. I think Portugal deserved to go through overall, they were the better side in the first half, and even in the second half when they were down a man for much of it, they defended very compactly and broke well on the counter too.

Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink was selected in this squad eclusively so we could play this tactic in the last 10 mins of a game where we would be trailing by a goal or less. Before the tournament everybody in the country was all over this amazing choice of him over Roy Makaay (Bayern Munchen stud) and Klaas Jan Huntelaar (who scored 50 goals in competitive games in 2005/2006).

My honest opinion: that's not how we should play, and I know Makaay, Huntelaar and Van Nistelrooij all can play that role too.

[Katon]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

I remember two:
Tunisian striker Jazira got a yellow for diving, he got sent off with a second one later on in that game.
Dutchman Robben got yellow for diving, even though he was sandwiched in the area. (He did deserve yellow for bad acting. )

Didn't Mexico have someone sent off against Portugal who dove when he was on a yellow?

[tanglewood]

I don't think Kuyt provided anything that Van Nisterooy couldn't have done, and Kuyt also took the couple of chances he had poorly. I was very suprosed that he didn't come on at some stage too, makes me think that perhaps there has been another infamous clash of personalities in the Dutch camp.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

I don't think Kuyt provided anything that Van Nisterooy couldn't have done, and Kuyt also took the couple of chances he had poorly. I was very suprosed that he didn't come on at some stage too, makes me think that perhaps there has been another infamous clash of personalities in the Dutch camp.

I doubt here was a personalities clash. Kuijt had been hinted as taking over for this game, but you don't mess with Van Nistelrooij's goals per game ratio. The use of strikers by arguably the best striker of all-time has been at least questionable...


Two last things before I hide into shame until tomorrow:

* The Netherlands will now fully support the Australian team to upset Italy, Germany and Portugal en route to the World Cup victrory.

* Figo, after getting Boulahrouz sent off, the hero of Maassluis and the Morrocan part of the Netherlands, you better not come in the ghetto of any big Dutch city ever again.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

unfortunately England shouldn't have a problem beating Portugal in the next round, without Deco and Costinha and possibly C. Ronaldo .

i say unfortunately because i'd really rather England not advance

Yeah, in the end it wouldn't matter who advanced because there would be 2 key players who would have to sit out the England match. England isn't playing that well, but you'd have to figure they'd knock out a Portugal/Netherlands with a couple of starters not able to play.

[ISiddiqui]

Oh, and unfortunately that match may have hurt Kuyt's stock in the race to get him into the EPL. Both Liverpool and Newcastle (and whoever else) may ask for less after Kuyt's WC performance.

[daedalus]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

Dempsey might dive a bit much (usually it's more exaggerating than true diving), but he doesn't writh around on the ground?

I saw in a few friendlies when he's done it and was getting annoyed with him.

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

The only player on USA who does that is Eddie Johnson (and I'm embarrassed to be a USA fan when he does).

I never really saw him play before this WC so I never knew that.

On the other hand, even as we talk about this, we still need to remember that the USMNT is still better than a number of teams about this.

[daedalus]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

No, Germany ran over the USMNT which until this WC NOBODY does. We might lose to good teams 9see Holland firneldy), but we don't get run over like that.

Germany did it and that was reason to believe they had the players to dominate in the WC.

I don't recall the USMNT playing that many powerhouse during the friendlies.

[daedalus]

Originally Posted by Jari Rantanen's Shorts

Commentators giving Figo shit, but while his headbutt was out of order, he definitely caught an elbow there. How much malice was in there I'm not sure, but IMO can't blame Figo there.

2 things I wanted to add:

1) Agreed, Figo's headbutt was out of order. On the other hand, Van Bommel's Rivaldo imitation [remember WC '02?] was IRRITATING!

2) Also agreed, there was contact. On the other hand, it didn't look remotely harsh and not NEARLY harsh enough for him to have dropped like he was shot.

PS - On the other hand, I'm probably biased toward the Dutch team from my CM 01/02 Arsenal squads.

[Joe]

Supposedly this referee last refereed a match in the 1994 World Cup, did not participate in the 1998 and 2002 World Cup and was now refereeing the above match in 2006 World Cup. After his performance today, FIFA will clearly keep him out of future World Cups from now on. At least... hopefully.

[daedalus]

Originally Posted by Jari Rantanen's Shorts

This guy has lost it English-referee-in-the-WC-style

Given the insane amount of booking during this WC, it would have been entirely hilarious had the FA sent Rob Styles instead of Graham Poll.

[MrBug708]

Wasnt it Portugal whop had the player who was hit in the leg and he grabbed his face? It was kiked by a player who was pissed at something and the ball wasnt in play at the time...

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by daedalus

I saw in a few friendlies when he's done it and was getting annoyed with him.I never really saw him play before this WC so I never knew that.

On the other hand, even as we talk about this, we still need to remember that the USMNT is still better than a number of teams about this.

"A number" = pretty much every single one?

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Wasnt it Portugal whop had the player who was hit in the leg and he grabbed his face? It was kiked by a player who was pissed at something and the ball wasnt in play at the time...

I think you're thinking of the Brazilian Rivaldo...

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by George W Bush

Supposedly this referee last refereed a match in the 1994 World Cup, did not participate in the 1998 and 2002 World Cup and was now refereeing the above match in 2006 World Cup. After his performance today, FIFA will clearly keep him out of future World Cups from now on. At least... hopefully.

He did refree in Euro 2004, so he hasn't been out of top class football. It sucks - refeeing in football is probably the hardest job, especially since the guy has to be so damn fit. A 2 refree system brings its own set of problems.

[Katon]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

I doubt here was a personalities clash. Kuijt had been hinted as taking over for this game, but you don't mess with Van Nistelrooij's goals per game ratio. The use of strikers by arguably the best striker of all-time has been at least questionable...

Arguably the best Dutch striker ever, you mean? (which he is; just that he's not quite up to the Eusebio/Muller level if you open the field to all nationalities, partly because of his injury)

Apart from that, I'd agree. Van Nistelrooij hasn't been at his best recently, but even so he's still the type of player you don't drop unless you've got an even better replacement (Huntelaar/Makaay might've been worth a try in friendlies or group stage matches; Kuijt no) or things are just not working at all (also not the case).

[daedalus]

Originally Posted by cartman

For all the talk about FIFA refs calling the games as FIFA has asked them to, I still haven't seen anyone carded for diving, which was one of the areas that was supposed to be scrutinized this time as well.

Amen!

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I didn't think this ref was the worst we've seen, but not great. The players have to take a lot of blame. Both were absolutely brutal -- cheap shots, hard tackles, and lots of diving -- and under the new FIFA directive are going to get a lot of cards. Of the 16 yellows, I thought about 4 were undeserved (under the new directive) -- most of the time wasting ones. The players are going to have to start adjusting. It's clear that no matter how you lightly you tap or tug a guy, if you're trailing the man, you will get a card. It is also guaranteed that if you do any kind of time wasting, you will also get a card. The players have to start playing smart. I've notice Germany has been very smart in this regard. You see guys just not trying to tackle from behind for the most part.

And Holland can't complain (and the guys here haven't) because it ended up giving them a significant portion of time with a man advantage and couldn't get it in the net. Ruud had to come in at halftime.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

I didn't think this ref was the worst we've seen, but not great. The players have to take a lot of blame. Both were absolutely brutal -- cheap shots, hard tackles, and lots of diving -- and under the new FIFA directive are going to get a lot of cards. Of the 16 yellows, I thought about 4 were undeserved (under the new directive) -- most of the time wasting ones. The players are going to have to start adjusting. It's clear that no matter how you lightly you tap or tug a guy, if you're trailing the man, you will get a card. It is also guaranteed that if you do any kind of time wasting, you will also get a card. The players have to start playing smart. I've notice Germany has been very smart in this regard. You see guys just not trying to tackle from behind for the most part.

And Holland can't complain (and the guys here haven't) because it ended up giving them a significant portion of time with a man advantage and couldn't get it in the net. Ruud had to come in at halftime.

The ref lost control of the game. The teams were both brutal because the ref didn't reign them in early on. They saw the rope they were given and ran with it. The ref has to take a decent amount of blame for just letting it get to such a level. You'll note that the game didn't get all that chippy until the 2nd half. Even though Christiano Ronaldo got hit with a very bad challenge in the 1st half and a few other hard fouls, it wasn't out of hand. It got that way later.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

The commentators said this before as well. But, please tell me how the referee was supposed to keep control or reign them in? He gave out 16 cards, including 4 red cards. Just how did the ref let it get out of hand? He handed out cards for every rash challenge and then some. The players were actually given no rope, and yet they kept making hard challenges. The way a ref keeps control is by giving out cards, including early on -- he did just that.