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View Poll Results: How is Obama doing? (poll started 6/6) | |||
Great - above my expectations | 18 | 6.87% | |
Good - met most of my expectations | 66 | 25.19% | |
Average - so so, disappointed a little | 64 | 24.43% | |
Bad - sold us out | 101 | 38.55% | |
Trout - don't know yet | 13 | 4.96% | |
Voters: 262. You may not vote on this poll |
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09-12-2015, 10:54 AM | #25601 | |
Solecismic Software
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Canton, OH
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Hezbollah is just another agent of Iran. Whether it would be directly involved in implementing nuclear weaponry is immaterial. They do what they're trained to do.
A declared war is not a word game. The question is how to react. You're right that bombing the military sites has limited benefit. Quote:
Then no deal is possible, since Iran won't recognize Israel's right to exist. And no deal is better than removing sanctions. At some point, through sanctions and defense, Iran may realize that its quest to eliminate Israel isn't worth the cost. But through appeasement, they've learned a different behavior - as they're exhibiting today. Hence the increased activity in the Golan Heights, the increased rhetoric, and the new military agreements with Russia. |
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09-12-2015, 11:13 AM | #25602 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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The Russians and Chinese all but stated that they would drop sanctions if there was no deal. Most assume that Germany, France, and UK would do the same fairly quickly. At that point our sanctions don't mean much of anything and we're back to the state of things during the Bush years, and your options are bluffing through tough talk or war.
If you have some plan to keep sanctions in place after failed peace talks, how would that work?
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
09-12-2015, 11:41 AM | #25603 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: St. Paul, MN
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Quote:
I think you're forgetting that we've actually done more than what you laid out. Let's not forget the US and Israel tried cyberwarfare to increase the time needed for Iran to build a bomb (which succeeded for a time), along with (supposed) Israeli assassination of Iranian nuclear scientists. I think it's arguable that outside of open warfare, options even beyond what would be considered reasonable and legal have been attempted to prevent or slow down Iranian efforts to obtain a nuclear weapon. And none of it has appeared to have lasting success. I don't think the deal we signed is ideal. It's disappointing Iran won't be forced to recognize Israel. It's disappointing they will receive funds from their frozen assets to support terrorism along with additional funds from the removal of sanctions (though that last part was arguably happening anyway). I think we got the best deal we could have though and the deal accomplishes something despite the howling from the detractors. Aside from the specifics in the deal related to reduced centrifuges / material and inspections, it also provides support for what happens if they try to go outside the framework of the deal. If we catch them cheating in any way, it will be a lot easier to muster public support behind action that I would assume most Americans would prefer to avoid if possible but are resigned to do if it's the last resort. |
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09-13-2015, 07:13 AM | #25604 | |
Solecismic Software
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Canton, OH
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Quote:
That's more indicative of the loss of respect Obama brings to the international table. We don't deal with terrorists. Obama has, and the message of appeasement has consequences throughout the world. What you do is help your friends. Which happened in the past with the virus that took down Iran's labs. Which happened in the past when the US reliably blocked the crap that comes out of the UN on a daily basis. The world sees how Obama treats his friends and tries to appease his enemies and the world reacts. We need a new president. I'm not sure we have one in any of the 21 current candidates, but this deal isn't worth the cyberspace they used to store it. |
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09-13-2015, 09:24 AM | #25605 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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History would say otherwise. This isn't even the first time we've dealt with Iran.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
09-13-2015, 09:26 AM | #25606 |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: SF
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09-13-2015, 09:48 AM | #25607 |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
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meh, the Contra's were fighting a repressive socialist government in the Cold War. Not exactly what I would call your modern extremist terrorist group. Unless, you root for socialism, of course.
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09-13-2015, 10:14 AM | #25608 |
Solecismic Software
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Canton, OH
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I'm sure there are technicalities, some we'd be uncomfortable with. But this is a government that is rather open about its goals through terrorism, open about sponsorship and training and also open about its feelings toward us, should it ever gain enough power. This is several orders of magnitude greater than shadowy stuff that may or may not be effective.
There are few truly bad actors in the world. Iran is one of them. |
09-13-2015, 10:23 AM | #25609 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Mujaheddin
Taliban Syria Saddam Hussein Palestinians Iran Saudi royal family Muslim brotherhood And that's just off the top of my head. When we think it will advance our interests we're more than willing to deal with terrorists.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
09-13-2015, 01:04 PM | #25610 |
Solecismic Software
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Canton, OH
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We have negotiated treaties (excuse me, non-treaties) with all those groups? Interesting. I thought we just sent arms or other support when there was a political goal.
This is orders of magnitude different. If Obama doesn't see the difference, it's just more evidence he has no idea what he's doing. |
09-13-2015, 01:17 PM | #25611 | |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: SF
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Quote:
You are moving the goal posts. Despite what the words in the treaty said, you say there were secret deals. Despite what was being said by the authors, you said it was all lies and spin. Despite saying us doesn't deal with terrorist, you now say us doesn't negotiate treaties. I feel your argue,went would have been more persuasive if you just said, "my guts tells me this is a bad and dangerous deal." |
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09-13-2015, 01:23 PM | #25612 |
Solecismic Software
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Canton, OH
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Deal as in make a deal with a standing government.
Many people have referred to the secret side-deals with this non-treaty treaty. Including the leadership of one of the countries involved (they just released another movie trailer of bombing American ships, in case people don't know who Obama is dealing with here). Obama himself has acknowledged that the deal does not cover what he initially promised. My guts don't say anything. Iranian leadership is very clear about what it wants, and what it will do with all the money Obama just freed up for them. |
09-13-2015, 01:38 PM | #25613 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Quote:
Are you talking about the Chinese video?
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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09-13-2015, 01:47 PM | #25614 |
Solecismic Software
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Canton, OH
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09-13-2015, 02:14 PM | #25615 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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So we're back to where we started. If negotiations are out, what outside of war will slow or stop the Iranian nuclear program? What's your alternative?
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
09-13-2015, 04:48 PM | #25616 |
Solecismic Software
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Canton, OH
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Rather than repeating the same sequence again, just go back a page or so. Probably time to stop. Obama certainly has demonstrated what not to do in the Middle East.
Six months ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqIMF-eOL1U Too bad they didn't listen to their own advice. Last edited by Solecismic : 09-13-2015 at 05:17 PM. |
09-13-2015, 05:29 PM | #25617 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Seven miles up
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So it's your opinion that if we could go back to 2008 and get a do over, that the choices made by McCain would have significantly altered our course?
If that's true, what course of action would he have undertaken? I've thought about it, and it all comes back to a repeat of Iraq. All on our own. Or quite possibly letting the Israelis loose to conduct airstrikes against Iran. Looking back at that time, imagine putting the strain of another conflict on the economy heading into the great recession. The Israel concept is interesting, since it was pulled off once before, but I have a feeling that the end results would have been much different. I don't see the international community giving Israel that much leeway anymore. Feelings toward much of their actions have hurt them over the years. It's just too simple to say that Obama screwed it all up and that any other choice would have been the correct one. The other choices available don't make the US any safer than the path that we've gone down now. I don't think anyone is out there touting the stability and friendliness of Pakistan. They went nuclear 17 years ago and caught the world by surprise. The proliferation of nuclear weapons has certainly slowed down in the late 20th and 21st centuries, but I think we are at the point globally where if a country has that as a goal, they are going to achieve it, given enough time.
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09-13-2015, 05:45 PM | #25618 |
Solecismic Software
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Canton, OH
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All Obama has done is take the military option off of the table and give Iran access to $150 billion.
That seems worse than any other action anyone could have taken. Go back to 2003, not 2008. Congress should have asked Bush what his end-game was with this Iraq nonsense. That destabilized the region and gave Iran a lot of power. Then Obama enacted the appeasement policy, which led to more destabilization and the power vacuum in Iraq. So now we have two major and very different sources of terror - neither of which is all that related to Al Qaeda. Israel is powerless to stop that. Israel is too small and too many countries deny it has a right to exist. They don't want to bomb Iran any more than we do. The best they can do is try and handle the non-nuclear stuff from Iran's proxies on their borders. Maybe all of this doesn't matter. Maybe the pressures of overpopulation mean war is constant and nuclear war is inevitable. But you don't make it easier without getting anything in return. |
09-13-2015, 06:14 PM | #25619 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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You're great at saying Obama did everything wrong, but you still haven't proposed a viable alternative other than tough talk or war. The idea that we should wait for the perfect agreement isn't living in the real world. There's no negotiating possible under your conditions, so what would you do?
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
09-13-2015, 06:24 PM | #25620 |
Solecismic Software
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Canton, OH
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I don't want to keep repeating myself, because I've answered that question. But no deal is better than a bad deal - Hillary and Kerry got that much right... until they didn't.
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09-13-2015, 06:44 PM | #25621 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Yes, I get that. What I want to know is what to do after no deal. How would you stop the Iranians from developing a nuke? If you won't negotiate, or have conditions that will keep the Iranians from negotiating, what do you do?
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
09-13-2015, 07:03 PM | #25622 | |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
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Quote:
Sucks to say it, but somebody has to be prepared to have a conventional war with them. Bottom line: Iran wants to be the first Islamic nation to detonate a nuke in Tel Aviv to secure their place in history. |
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09-13-2015, 07:15 PM | #25623 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Quote:
While I obviously think that's a poor choice, I at least respect you owning that. It seems to me you have three basic choices, negotiate, talk tough but do little, or use the military. What's frustrating is the position that if we were just tough enough the Iranians would agree to all our wishes. I just don't see how that could happen in the real world.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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09-13-2015, 08:11 PM | #25624 |
Solecismic Software
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Canton, OH
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I don't agree with your choices or your characterization of my choices.
Obviously, we're very limited right now by Bush's cowboy behavior and Obama's wishy-washy appeasement. No one trusts us, and building consensus for action would be difficult. I think the key is in intelligence, and yes, Iran has to believe that if they make moves, we'll know about them and move before they can do damage. But you can't be omniscient. Neither can you start a ground war without risking a lot more because Russia's in there and China's too close not to care. It wouldn't be nearly as easy as Iraq was. But first, you don't make a deal. Now a hard situation is much, much harder because we've taken so many options off the table. I think we have to start thinking about what it would take to remove Hezbollah and Hamas from the equation. Iran is a sovereign nation, but Hezbollah and Hamas are just terrorist groups Iran controls. We also have to think twice about any action involving ISIS because Russia and Iran are opposed to ISIS. |
09-13-2015, 08:16 PM | #25625 |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: SF
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09-13-2015, 08:21 PM | #25626 |
Solecismic Software
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Canton, OH
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Huh, what? Do you really think Netanyahu wants to hurt anyone in Tehran? This seems the height of false equivalencies.
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09-13-2015, 08:32 PM | #25627 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Quote:
None of that would keep Iran from developing nukes. If you are mostly worried about Iran's influence as a regional power these ideas might work. But if you're mostly concerned about Iran getting a nuke, they'd still be free to do so.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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09-13-2015, 08:35 PM | #25628 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Green Bay, WI
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Quote:
Because military strikes are always limited to specific targets and never have collateral damage, either in terms of infrastructure or human lives. |
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09-13-2015, 09:05 PM | #25629 |
Solecismic Software
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Canton, OH
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I'm not following you, Sack. Are you saying that Netanyahu, because Israel uses force to defend itself from rocket attacks, must feel that he wants to kill every man, woman and child in Iran?
Because the promise from Iran, combined with their unprovoked attacks and military buildup in Lebanon, Syria and Gaza, seems fairly clear. I don't know how you stop Iran from getting the bomb at this point. The money will bring them closer, as will the new weaponry from Russia that Obama has allowed. Bombing raids might delay it, but at a cost. Sabotage is a possibility. Trusting them to wait ten years when they say inspections are forbidden seems like a bad idea. |
09-14-2015, 03:30 AM | #25630 |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
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Liberals and staunch ultra-right wing Iranians are such bizarre bed-fellows.
Last edited by Dutch : 09-19-2015 at 07:50 AM. |
09-18-2015, 07:41 PM | #25631 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Another one for the history books on legacy.
I think Obama has just lost Dems the military vote for the foreseeable future (or I guess it doesn't matter as the military go GOP anyway). It'll be interesting to see how the GOP candidates react to this and gays in the military. Obama nominates openly gay man to lead Army - CNNPolitics.com Quote:
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09-18-2015, 08:24 PM | #25632 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Nov 2003
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I think you answered your own question there - anyone in the military who is offended enough by this to never vote Democrat again wasn't voting Democrat in the first place.
I also seem to recall the surveys they did when they were planning DADT showed most armed forces members were either in favor or didn't care, so I'm guessing the effect isn't as overwhelming as you think. |
09-18-2015, 09:57 PM | #25633 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
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There does seem to be a significant shift in attitude under Obama's shift.
AMERICA'S MILITARY: A conservative institution's uneasy cultural evolution Quote:
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09-19-2015, 02:19 PM | #25634 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
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Quote:
{shrug} Part of the decline of the U.S. military that's been going on for years. Various policy decisions have been driving good soldiers out for going on three decades that I can think of. That the military would reflect that overall decline in society isn't really much of a surprise, they don't exist entirely in a vacuum.
__________________
"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis |
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09-21-2015, 07:07 PM | #25635 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Surfside Beach,SC USA
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The pope is coming to the US. Interestingly the President has invited gay rights and abortion activists to the event in Washington. Huckabee doesn't like it I guess:
Huckabee rips Obama as 'most anti-Christian' president ever | TheHill |
09-23-2015, 11:25 AM | #25636 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
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It looks as if Russia wants to get more involved to prop up Assad and to fight ISIS.
I'm actually okay with this since it doesn't seem that we want to get more involved and our policies/strategy so far has been non-effective and/or disastrous. Let's give someone else a shot at it. http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/23/middle...dup/index.html Quote:
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09-23-2015, 11:30 AM | #25637 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Nov 2003
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I tend to agree, and I wouldn't be surprised if behind the scenes and the public condemnation we are quite happy with this, as horrible as it might be for the Syrian people. I just can't see a moderate solution to Syria no matter how hard we look.
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09-23-2015, 11:32 AM | #25638 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Northern Kentucky
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Quote:
Since it is in their backyard, relatively speaking, I'm more than okay with Russia stepping up to combat ISIS.
__________________
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09-23-2015, 08:04 PM | #25639 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Surfside Beach,SC USA
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American terrorists ready to act on Iran nuclear deal?
Activist Vows to Arrest Democratic Lawmaker ‘Under Article 3 Section 3 of the Constitution’ | TheBlaze.com |
09-25-2015, 08:46 AM | #25640 |
Death Herald
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas
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Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint |
09-25-2015, 08:47 AM | #25641 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Holy crap. That's huge. The fight for his successor is going to be ugly.
I wonder if this was the price for getting the budget passed on time.
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To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
09-25-2015, 09:05 AM | #25642 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Colorado Springs
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If the Republicans oust him and put a far right no-deals social conservative in his place, they may as well just kiss their House majority goodbye in 2016.
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09-25-2015, 09:20 AM | #25643 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Quote:
I don't know. Very few GOP districts have swing possibility. Most of them are so safe that a conservative primary opponent is a bigger worry than a moderate general election opponent. edit: But it certainly won't help the Presidential or Senate elections. edit2: Since Cruz seems to be pulling the strings for the far right House members, why not make him the Speaker. The Speaker doesn't have to be a member of the House after all.
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To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers Last edited by JPhillips : 09-25-2015 at 09:24 AM. |
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09-25-2015, 09:23 AM | #25644 |
lolzcat
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
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Boehner had decided a few weeks back that he was not going to re-run for his Congressional seat. I think this current budget fight, the continuing intra-party discontent, and quite honestly the personal load of visibility all conspired to move him to just parachute more or less immediately.
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09-25-2015, 09:32 AM | #25645 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Decatur, GA
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It kind of makes me a bit sad, because I always felt that Boehner never felt all this shutdown and debt ceiling stuff was worth fighting about, but the right wingers in the House kept pushing him to do it and kept making noises about replacing him if he didn't.
Had to be exhausting.
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09-25-2015, 09:46 AM | #25646 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Quote:
Yeah. Nobody can blame him for throwing up his hands and saying, "Fuck these guys."
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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09-25-2015, 09:47 AM | #25647 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Decatur, GA
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Apparently Boehner wanted to step down as Speaker last year, but Cantor's primary loss deep sixed that idea:
House Speaker John Boehner to resign at end of October - The Washington Post Quote:
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"A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams |
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09-25-2015, 10:54 AM | #25648 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
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Quote:
Agreed. I've always seen him as a really good guy who was playing the role, but really didn't want to do so. |
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09-25-2015, 10:54 AM | #25649 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Surfside Beach,SC USA
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thank god, not that whomever replaces him will be able to change anything...
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09-25-2015, 11:41 AM | #25650 |
Resident Alien
Join Date: Jun 2001
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I hope the Republicans will be able to perform effectively without a Boehner.
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