10-17-2013, 12:43 PM | #2501 | |
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Dodger Fans do... IMO because they are a division rival. The Padres and D-Backs stink so they don't care. Why is it that Reds and Brewers fans are in this thread talking about how insufferable the Cards are? They are a rival that wins. I can remember Cubs and Cards fans that thought the Astros "Killer B's" were insufferable when they were winning. Now they suck and they have gone back to a "no opinion" team. With just teams I follow... Bengals fans think Steelers are arrogant. Mizzou fans think Kansas is arrogant. Rams fans don't really care but when they were good hated the Patriots. Seems like a common theme. |
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10-17-2013, 12:43 PM | #2502 | |
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My point was simply that if you look at the winners of the World Series since the late 90s, only the Cardinals and Marlins weren't part of the top 10 big payroll club. And the Cards didn't need a massive firesale to afford it and have sustained their success. |
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10-17-2013, 12:46 PM | #2503 | |
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And on top of that SF had a few great seasons, the Cards/Sox (like it or not) have been consistantly the top two franchises in baseball the past 10-15 years. |
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10-17-2013, 12:51 PM | #2504 | ||||||
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Again, you're being disingenuous. That is the ultimate in small sample size. "Who the Dodgers have used in five games proves they're really just this big money monster who haven't developed talent of their own." Quote:
Because a) June isn't the offseason and b) Ryu isn't fucking being paid "north of $42 million"? You're lumping in the total cost - which is fair when talking about the resources a team can bring to bear - and then asserting that the Dodgers are paying one of those players $61 million, which is flat incorect. Quote:
No, I'm trying to say that if you're going to assert something to make an argumentative point, you should try to make sure that your facts are, you know, correct. There are only two reasons to get facts wrong which are easily correctable with a Google search: either you're being deliberately disingenuous to exacerbate the difference between the Big Bad Dodgers and the plucky Cardinals, bravely resisting the financial juggernaut from LA, or you're afraid that being accurate in your reporting won't have the desired effect towards your argument. Quote:
So why are you talking about "16 Cardinals players making less than a mil" and then dismissing the Dodgers who qualify because, well, they haven't had an appearance? I mean, really? You're going to count all of YOUR guys, but find reasons to disqualify the guys you couldn't be bothered to accurately count in the first place? Quote:
Keep fucking that small sample size chicken. That Mattingly left Rodriguez off the NLCS roster when the Cardinals are weak against lefties is more an indictment of Mattingly's fuckery and less an indictment of whether Rodriguez is "ready." Quote:
My argument is that you're deliberately distorting YOUR argument and relying on small sample sizes to make your point - Rodriguez pitched in nearly 80 regular season games and was on the NLDS roster, but because he got dropped from the NLCS roster, he somehow doesn't count as being a homegrown part of what the Dodgers have done this season. Have the Dodgers spent a fuckload of money on this roster? Absolutely. Can you make that point without distorting your argument? Absolutely. Have you bothered to? Absolutely not. |
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10-17-2013, 12:51 PM | #2505 | |
High School Varsity
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The Cardinals do a great job developing players. It is this kind of shit that is why people are getting annoyed - YOU DO A GOOD JOB YOU DON'T HAVE TO OVERSTATE YOUR CASE. You are comparing the Cardinals, who have been mostly between 9 and 11 in payroll each year the last 5 years (more or less, the data is different between sites and the differences between 8 and 12 are not large) to two of the bottom 5 payrolls. Last edited by Ronnie Dobbs3 : 10-17-2013 at 12:52 PM. |
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10-17-2013, 12:51 PM | #2506 |
Hall Of Famer
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Ah, the good ole jealousy argument . I'm used to hearing that from Yankees fans.
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10-17-2013, 12:51 PM | #2507 |
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Out here in Arizona they are hated (not as much as the Dodgers, but close). No one here cares about the Rockies or Padres because they stink. Remember, the Giants didn't make the playoffs between 2004 and 2009 (with only 2 seasons over .500). They won the WS in 2010, missed the playoffs in 2011, won in 2012 and then missed again this year. That's two playoff seasons in 10 years. That's not enough to build mass "hatred". If they make the playoffs and the NLCS the next 2-3 years then you will see the animosity build. They just haven't had the sustained success. Since 2000, the Cardinals have made the playoffs in 10 of the 14 years. They've won the world series twice, made it to 3 times, made it to the NLCS 7 times and had four combined MVPs and CYAs. That's a lot of success to build contempt and hatred.
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10-17-2013, 12:56 PM | #2508 | |
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It probably is why people hate the Yankees. They win, are in the playoffs all the time, are on TV all the time. Repeat this with Duke or UNC basketball or Pittsburgh Steeler or New England football or Miami Heat/LA Laker basketball. People either love or hate the really successful teams. Most people don't have a passion for Iowa State basketball or Washington Wizards Basketball or Cleveland Browns football. |
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10-17-2013, 12:58 PM | #2509 |
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Oakland's got a lot of success since 2000 - why aren't they hated now?
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10-17-2013, 12:59 PM | #2510 | |
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People don't hate teams due to success - they hate teams because their fans become arrogant douchnozzles who feel they are owed success. People still hate Notre Dame football even though they haven't done anything relevant for years.
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10-17-2013, 01:01 PM | #2511 |
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10-17-2013, 01:03 PM | #2512 | |
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They played in the national title game last year! I get the point you are making but hopefully you can also see that the examples being provided to negate the "people hate sucessful teams argument" are huge stretches. Last edited by panerd : 10-17-2013 at 01:04 PM. |
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10-17-2013, 01:04 PM | #2513 |
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10-17-2013, 01:11 PM | #2514 |
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Before getting slaughtered in last year's title game, what was Notre Dame's record for the previous decade? How did they do in the Willingham and Weis years? Did anyone hate them less?
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"A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams Last edited by ISiddiqui : 10-17-2013 at 01:12 PM. |
10-17-2013, 01:12 PM | #2515 |
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10-17-2013, 01:13 PM | #2516 |
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10-17-2013, 01:13 PM | #2517 |
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Ok, so:
Make the championship game and lose = hated. Lose in the round before = reason not hated. Got it. |
10-17-2013, 01:14 PM | #2518 | |
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Detroit and Texas are very hated teams in MLB, just so you know.
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10-17-2013, 01:18 PM | #2519 | ||||
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[quoute]Because a) June isn't the offseason and b) Ryu isn't fucking being paid "north of $42 million"? You're lumping in the total cost - which is fair when talking about the resources a team can bring to bear - and then asserting that the Dodgers are paying one of those players $61 million, which is flat incorect. No, I'm trying to say that if you're going to assert something to make an argumentative point, you should try to make sure that your facts are, you know, correct. There are only two reasons to get facts wrong which are easily correctable with a Google search: either you're being deliberately disingenuous to exacerbate the difference between the Big Bad Dodgers and the plucky Cardinals, bravely resisting the financial juggernaut from LA, or you're afraid that being accurate in your reporting won't have the desired effect towards your argument.[/quote] I never said Ryu makes more than $42 mil in salary, I said he was paid north of $42 mil as an FA. You choose to not count the posting fee to sign him - I do as it was part of the cost to get him. Neither are "wrong", they are just the way we each choose to present the information. Quote:
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10-17-2013, 01:22 PM | #2520 |
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The NFL teams picked always interest me as well. Since 2000, the New York Giants have been to the Superbowl the same number of times as the Pittsburgh Steelers - but its always Steelers thrown in with the Patriots as hated because of success. I never see the Giants in there. Or Baltimore for that matter.
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10-17-2013, 01:24 PM | #2521 |
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Report: Albert Pujols gets 10-year, $220 million offer from Cardinals
No way the A's or Rays are able to do something like this. |
10-17-2013, 01:25 PM | #2522 | |
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The Cardinals have the 11th highest payroll in baseball this year. Not sure how their payroll looked in the last few years, but, come on... St. Louis isn't some small market/moneyball team.
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10-17-2013, 01:29 PM | #2523 | |
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Put it another way - why do people tend to hate the Steelers but not the Pirates. It's essentially the same fanbase - just one has had a lot more recent success. |
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10-17-2013, 01:33 PM | #2524 | |
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10-17-2013, 01:33 PM | #2525 | |
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But are they really? I mean I think the Pirates would love to have the fanbase the Steelers have. They wouldn't have been facing money issues that way.
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10-17-2013, 01:35 PM | #2526 |
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Actually, yes, people did hate them slightly less because they were irrelevant. Ask anyone with roots from a midwestern area to compare the hatred with Irish fans last year to during the Willingham years. It was much worse.
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10-17-2013, 01:39 PM | #2527 |
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Not in this part of the country it wasn't. Regional and divisional rivals are going to hate teams that block them anyways. The rest of the country hates teams for totally different reasons - mainly involving arrogant fanbases.
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10-17-2013, 01:39 PM | #2528 | |
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Great point. Hated in the early 90s and then not hated in the mid 2000s. Sam fan base, I'm guessing success had something to do with it. Last edited by Arles : 10-17-2013 at 01:40 PM. |
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10-17-2013, 01:43 PM | #2529 |
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I will meet you halfway in that I think when you win, you're more obnoxious minority tends to be more outspoken. But, you have to win to get to that point. So, in essence, all teams have an obnoxious minority. When they win, that minority becomes more vocal. Hence, all successful teams end up becoming hated for a combination of jealously, aggravation at that obnoxious minority and just a sense of wanting to see someone else make it.
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10-17-2013, 01:46 PM | #2530 |
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I would argue that the environment today isn't the same as it was during the Bash Brothers era; how many people even knew an A's fan back then? Sure there were Cowboy fans, Notre Dame fans and so forth and so on since those were major bandwagon teams.
I feel like in the past the players drove public opinion about a team (caveat being I was 9, thought the A's were cool, and didn't know they were hated). Now players are mostly dull and corporate, but we get inundated with fan opinion all the time on the internet. |
10-17-2013, 01:48 PM | #2531 | |
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But they're not Top Ten! They have gained their success the RIGHT way, not through some crazy free-spending ways like the Top Ten.
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10-17-2013, 01:59 PM | #2532 | |
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Not sure how posts like yours can be interpreted as anything but jealousy of the Cards success and Reds lack of but go ahead and tell yourself its because of some guy at Home Depot. |
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10-17-2013, 02:06 PM | #2533 | |
Coordinator
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Rockies fans "arrogant douchnozzles?" Seriously? Holy crap. We have won 90 games once in our 21 year history and lost 90 games or more 5 times and there are those fans? Please, tie them up and bring them to me. I'll help handle the douchenozzle Rockies fans myself. |
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10-17-2013, 02:09 PM | #2534 | |
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This thread is quickly reminding me of the multi-page threads we would have at the height of the Patriots heyday when it was all arguing back and forth between Pats fans who were basically saying everyone was just jealous of their success and everyone else saying there was more to it than that. But yes, it is just simple jealousy if that helps you sleep at night. By the way, IT WAS LOWE'S, LEARN TO FUCKING READ. (That last bit was a joke in case it's not clear.)
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10-17-2013, 02:10 PM | #2535 | ||
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Look at the TV ratings for the Steelers and Pirates. I'm guessing the Steelers get a far higher share than the Pirates do. Quote:
Um... what about the early 2000s? When they had back to back 100 win seasons? And won over 90 games 6 times in a 7 year span, including 5 years in a row (they won 88 the other year)? In the late 80s, people hated Jose Canseco. You'll note Mark McGwire was never hated in anywhere near the same way.
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"A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams Last edited by ISiddiqui : 10-17-2013 at 02:13 PM. |
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10-17-2013, 02:16 PM | #2536 | |
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(2011) http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/m...-disliked.html (2012) Cowboys, Packers tied for America’s favorite NFL team - Public Policy Polling These polls are somewhat flawed (limited team choices) but at least they are legit polls. If it's just jealousy why are the Cowboys always ranked the highest despite their lack of recent success or even all time success (Steelers have won more Super Bowls). Also, the Steelers are /not/ the most hated or even second most hated in either poll. In 2012, they are 5th behind Cowboys, Pats, Bears, and Broncos while in 2011, they are not even in the top 5. The Giants and Packers don't register despite winning the Super Bowl those two years (tho the polls are taken in December). So, I think there's something more going on than just jealousy. Otherwise, that list would be some combination of long term winning and short term winning weighted properly and they just don't match up. SI
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10-17-2013, 02:25 PM | #2537 |
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The 8% that hated the Broncos are probably almost all Chiefs and old Browns fans.
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10-17-2013, 02:29 PM | #2538 | |
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You don't get bonus point for winning a World Series based on payroll. I look at it this way. I cheer for my team. Once my team is done, I don't care who else wins it although certain college football teams winning do tend to bug me. I figure even if the Tigers don't win it, each team has their own story as to why that title was great for them.
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10-17-2013, 02:31 PM | #2539 | ||||
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IMO, the top tier is always going to have more animosity towards them because they are akin to the rich kid at the ivy league school. They've been afforded all advantages and can just spend more if they make mistakes. Even if they lose, people will hate them because of this advantage. Look at the Yankees this year, they stink and people still love to hate them. For that middle class, the animosity is almost entirely based on success. If they win, more people will hate them. If the Reds run off a 7-year frame like the Cards just did and win 2 World Series with 5 NLCS appearances - they will hated as much (if not more) than the Cardinals. Fan base and location have little to do with this tier, it's pretty much all success. Quote:
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10-17-2013, 02:33 PM | #2540 | |
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Get over yourself. |
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10-17-2013, 02:35 PM | #2541 |
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10-17-2013, 02:37 PM | #2542 | |
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You keep parroting this but there really isn't anything to suggest it. It's too small a sample size to draw any conclusions from. |
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10-17-2013, 02:37 PM | #2543 |
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Nolan Ryan is retiring as CEO of the Rangers.
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10-17-2013, 02:39 PM | #2544 |
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And what does McGwire being hated by A's fans after leaving Oakland have to do with the discussion? You brought up those A's as a successful team hated by other fanbases.
I don't think you're going to be very successful convincing everyone here that the reason they think they don't like the Cardinals is wrong, but I guess you can keep trying. Last edited by Ronnie Dobbs3 : 10-17-2013 at 02:40 PM. |
10-17-2013, 02:40 PM | #2545 | |
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10-17-2013, 02:43 PM | #2546 |
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Is this more filler? Maybe you just really really enjoy arguing against a large group.
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10-17-2013, 02:47 PM | #2547 | ||
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10-17-2013, 02:48 PM | #2548 |
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I'm not sure what this is. But I don't mind being outnumbered - esp when I'm right
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10-17-2013, 02:54 PM | #2549 | |
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No, no, no, no. This all started with someone saying "the world is finally catching on to what a bunch of smug, self-satisfied humorless dicks that you are" and you responding that people are just envious of the success. You aren't saying people are "wrong" for not liking the Cardinals - you are telling them that why they think they dislike the Cardinals is wrong. It's the absolute perfect response to those who say that Cardinals fans are sanctimonious in that it completely proves the point. |
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10-17-2013, 02:56 PM | #2550 |
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For all you Cardinal haters, I'm really going to piss you off now.
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