Egyptians, and the Origins of Christianity?

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by revrew

Given some of the responses on this thread (dunno who said what, have lost track), I am convinced that arguing for the truth of Jesus' existence will ultimately convince no one, even if I used sound, reasonable argument backed with scholarly attribution - for our worldviews are so foundationally different, that even plain facts are seen through too different of lenses to hope for significant agreement.

I know I'm not arguing to try and convince anyone other than to look at the facts that exist. The bible doesn't count as it is not an acurate historical document. There's too many 'plot holes', for the lack of a better term. These plot holes aren't because no one has found the connecting points, it's because it was written by so many different people.

But I would like to state, for the record, that I disagree wholeheartedly, and believe it to be plain regardless of a person's worldview, with two assertions I've read in this thread:

1. The falsehood of the oft-repeated refrain that there were no contemporaries that wrote of Jesus. Paul was an adult alive at the time of Jesus and likely about the same age, John was a teenager at the youngest, Matthew, and Luke were all contemporaries of Jesus who wrote about him. They all were either eyewitnesses to his life and death or dealt directly with other eyewitnesses to Jesus' life and death. True, the first of their writings didn't appear until about 25 years after Jesus death (Paul's being the first, written approx. 55 AD to 65 AD, with Jesus' death approximated at 30 AD), but these men WERE contemporaries.

No one is saying that jesus had no contemporaries. People are saying there is no contemporary evidence. Two very different things.

2. The historically ignorant at best, hopelessly prejudiced at worst assertion that religion is and has been a harmful influence on society. Particularly, the positive influence of Christianity on Western Civ is abundant. From the abolition of slavery, cannibalism, and human sacrifice to the spread of democracy, women's rights, the valuation of human life, the establishment of hospitals and schools, the foundations of the Euro-American rule of law, the logical roots of the scientific method as we know it, etc. etc. all owe their existence to the principles of Christianity at work in Western Civilization. Now, I am keenly aware of the abuses that have come with religion - from the Crusades to the Inquisition - but to assert that religion is a net minus on history?? Again, either hopelessly ignorant - particularly of American history - or unjustifiably selective in historical interpretation.

1. Slavery which the bible condones
2. Women's rights - why is it so hard for women to join the clergy? I will give points for the female saints though
3. Valuation of human life - hmmmm sacrificing your enemies new borns
4. Establishment of hospitals and learning institutions - yes.
5. Euro - American rule of law - I can't speak for Europe, but, America was NOT founded on christian principles and the founding fathers were very secular. Most of them were deists and not christian.
6. Scientific method - that sounds highly suspect in my opinion. Would like to see some sources on that. The reason being, the scientific method goes against the grain of religious dogma, so I find it extrememly hard to believe.

To add to the list, why the disgusting treatment by the church against gays? Why the pope's almost capitulating to Hitler (no Godwins Law here) during WW2 and the treatment of the jews? How come no one in the church is trying to reel in the lunatic evangilistic fundamentalists that are just as bad as your bus bombing jihadist?

Now, with a thoroughly ingrained faith in the value of a secular humanist worldview, all religion of today would appear foolish, regressive, and even potentially dangerous. Its abolition or at least removal from the public and political sphere would be seen as valuable, and I don't begrudge my peers who adhere to that worldview from seeing religion as a net negative in the current times.

I've never called for the abolition of religion. Just its removal from public schools, legislation and revoking its tax exempt status. There's a good reason why our founding fathers specifically included the separation of church and state. If it is not clear why, then I would recommend doing some research to clarify it.

But historically? My secularist friends owe their lives and their freedoms to the faith of their fathers. I could belabour the point, ask how many of us were born in Catholic hospitals or make some other clever argument, but I wonder if any of it would even have effect. I will contend that to the honest mind, my assertion is as self-evident as the truths our forefathers held, believing as they did that all our rights were endowed to man by his creator. Of course, without their faith, our forefathers wouldn't have believed any of that crap, and America would look radically different than it does today.

Not sure specifically which fathers you are refering to. Founding fathers or actual familial fathers that owe their lives and freedoms to?

I was not born in a catholic hospital for the record nor have I ever been baptised

However, again, the founding fathers of America were NOT christian, some were, but most were deists and the inclusion of the word 'creator' was intentional, not because they were trying to establish christian law, but because they did not know who or what method created us and that no one was above the law. They used logic and reason to form the constitution not religious doctrines.

For the record, I do not advocate the abolishment of religion. It does have its time and place for people. However, there's certain arenas that it just does not belong in. I actually enjoy having smart, insightful conversations about religion and where we all came from and I think this has been one and I think everyone has been calm about it.

Having said all that, this is all stuff that's probably better suited for a different thread as the OP was asking about the origins of christianity and I stand by my earlier sumation that christianity is nothing more than an amalgam of prior religions and superstitions. Doesn't make it bad, doesn't make it good...it just is what it is.