FOFC Deeproute League

[Autumn]

I'll scrimmage you ls. Let me go see if I can pull it off.

[Autumn]

All right, I've got it put in.

For some feedback on teh scrimmage section, I would lose the term "card". I eventually figured it out, but the term "Card Scrimmage" didn't really mean anything to me at first blush and I blundered around a while trying to figure out how to set one up.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by Autumn

All right, I've got it put in.

For some feedback on teh scrimmage section, I would lose the term "card". I eventually figured it out, but the term "Card Scrimmage" didn't really mean anything to me at first blush and I blundered around a while trying to figure out how to set one up.

It should be spinning up now.

Agreed on the "card" terminology. I thought I just wasn't in on the terminology enough and didn't want to look stupid. "Setup Scrimmage" or something would be fine, I think.

[lordscarlet]

in case you haven't looked at the results:

Spoiler

WTF happened to my QB? I need to look at the log in detail, but 0 TD 3 INT is a very odd performance for him. Still threw for a lot of yards, though. Looks like you've got a pretty good squad, though. That KR for a TD is a guy that I don't normally have back there.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by billgulch

RA : what's your user name?

richardweed

I see what the problem is. I didn't make any playbooks for the regular season and I was trying to set my playbooks for the scrimmages.

There aren't any defensive playbook options?

[Thomkal]

well this was an interesting second preseason game for me. I went with whomever the computer had on my active list, didn't change the depth charts, etc. Won that game pretty easily (sorry Mike). This game I activated most of those the computer had inactive and switched them around with the ones that were active. Wasn't expecting a good result, because generally the guys playing this game were worse than the ones playing the first. But I won again, though nearly lost it to a 4th quarter comeback. Now I don't know who to keep/set inactive.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

in case you haven't looked at the results:

Spoiler

WTF happened to my QB? I need to look at the log in detail, but 0 TD 3 INT is a very odd performance for him. Still threw for a lot of yards, though. Looks like you've got a pretty good squad, though. That KR for a TD is a guy that I don't normally have back there.

I watched the game. Hell of a 62 yarder at the end to win it. I had you backed up to the 4 yard line.

Your QB seemed to throw fine, except for those picks. It was odd. At first it seemed like I was dominating other than that kick return. But really if a few of those picks didn't go that way you might have crushed us.

I think some of the changes I made for this game didn't work out well at all. I'll have to see if I can go back to the drawing board.

[lordscarlet]

I've been changing things up like crazy and running scrimmages to test them. Against a baseline team I've been improving, but with the starters in for the preseason game I was getting crushed (in stats but not score), so I'm losing a little confidence in my adjustments.

[wade moore]

I don't understand why my team sucks.

[dbd1963]

The baseline team is all 50s. Even they beat me most of the time!

wade, your team will improve after the first year is up. First, your draft picks will help. If your team really does suck, you're probably going to get a great first rounder and then some good guys later on too. Also, as people sign their rookies, they will release some serviceable FAs. Right now, if you didn't have a good first draft, there's nothing you can do but gut it out because there are no FAs to speak of that can help.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by wade moore

I don't understand why my team sucks.

First, my team doesn't suck and I sstill get blown out at times. Second, you probably need to do some investigation of individual attributes rather than overall scores, which side of the line individuals are on (based on their run/pass abilities), where LBs are, etc.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

First, my team doesn't suck and I sstill get blown out at times. Second, you probably need to do some investigation of individual attributes rather than overall scores, which side of the line individuals are on (based on their run/pass abilities), where LBs are, etc.

Meh.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Meh.

Based on my scrimmaging it appears that preseason is a poor indicator to performance. In theory I'm some teams from other leagues that are doing well in those leagues and holding my own, but getting blown away in scrimmages here. Who knows. Maybe it's all about matchups.

[billgulch]

Ok.. I’m back for my daily dose.. (and really pardon my typing.. I’m on my little Inspiron…)

For starters, I’ve been trying to get my hands around the “depth chart” idea. It’s actually easier to write than what I have in there, I just want to make sure it “feels right.” I’m trying to figure out if drop down boxed work the best and, if not… what should I use. Programming has always been pretty natural for me.. Not so much for design…

CSV Thing - so everything is simply crammed onto one row? (all the players and info in one row and column)? Are you on Windows or Mac? I’ve had some trouble getting mac to accept the files properly.. Something about the line feed / carriage return thing. If you open it directly without saving it, does it open excel automatically and still not work, or does it do ok?

“Default back to package I was working on” : Fixed.

“Copy pre-season to regular season strategies” : I allowed in in the other direction in some places. That was honestly a bit foolish on my behalf to leave out. It‘ll go on my short list.

“Side by Side comparison” Another good idea. Glad you mentioned it before I started working on the actual depth chart thing. That’ll save me a bit of coding. J

“Scrimmage game returns to scrimmage3 carding screen” : The primary reason I go back to the carding screen is that sometimes players want to card scrimmages in bunches (which would make returning to the My Scrimmages screen annoying, IMO). I do have a “click here to see your scrimmages” button.

“Intermediate playbook problem (Greg)” : Hmm.. That one I’ll have to look into. I tested it out, and it worked just fine across all times and scores and copied into the preseason playbook as well (though I only tested it for one number). One thing to note : only the CHANGED items are changed across the packages. So if you left one the same, it wouldn’t change across all scenarios. Could that explain it? Maybe I need to make a “copy all numbers across all scenarios” button as well.

“Card Scrimmage” terminology : changed to “create” on the main screen.

“Defensive Playbook Options” - there aren’t any for the intermediate playbook yet (though they exist for the advanced). I have a lot of the screen for this one figured out and coded actually.. It just needs to be worked into the game and released.

Preseason is definitely a “squishy science.” The primary goal is to figure out which players are better than others, so you get a lot of flopping around in the second half. Scrimmage games are definitely a better indicator of success. That being said, the team you are playing in a scrimmage may or may not be playing starters, or may have had several seasons to “get good” (or may be in a less competitive non-capped league).

So off to coding! Thanks guys!

--Mike

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by billgulch

“Intermediate playbook problem (Greg)” : Hmm.. That one I’ll have to look into. I tested it out, and it worked just fine across all times and scores and copied into the preseason playbook as well (though I only tested it for one number). One thing to note : only the CHANGED items are changed across the packages. So if you left one the same, it wouldn’t change across all scenarios. Could that explain it? Maybe I need to make a “copy all numbers across all scenarios” button as well.

That may explain it, I'll pay closer attention to them. But yes, what I really want is to set up my base run/pass splits, then adjust specific scenarios, so I want everything blasted to the places I tell it to go.

[Thomkal]

This Mike guy is pretty good at listening to his customers and making changes where need be isn't he?

[lordscarlet]

On the CSV: It was on a Windows machine. I believe Excel 2003 (I'm not at work today). The players were on individual rows, but the attributes were not in separate columns. So each player was on it's own row but a single column.

[billgulch]

That;s actually pretty typical; that's what happens when I check my T-Mobile bill. Try this after opening it :

* Highlight column A (by clicking at the top of it; the entire column should turn black)
* Choose Data on the toolbar
* Choose Text to Columns
* Choose Delimited and hit Next >
* Check the box by the word Comma and hit Next >
* Hit the Finish button

Did that fix things?

Thanks!

--Mike

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by billgulch

That;s actually pretty typical; that's what happens when I check my T-Mobile bill. Try this after opening it :

* Highlight column A (by clicking at the top of it; the entire column should turn black)
* Choose Data on the toolbar
* Choose Text to Columns
* Choose Delimited and hit Next >
* Check the box by the word Comma and hit Next >
* Hit the Finish button

Did that fix things?

Thanks!

--Mike

I'll have to check when I'm back at work, but I think you can eliminate the need to do that simply by changing the file extension from xls to csv.

Edit: It shoudl be saved as what it actually is, regardless. If it's not actually an excel spreadsheet and instead is a comma delimited file, it really should be .csv anyway

[billgulch]

I originally had it open as a CSV file and received several complaints that it wouldn't "pop open automatically" in Excel. If a person does not have Excel as their default CSV renderer, this would occur. The only way I could figure to force it to open in Excel is tell the browser it's and Excel file (even if it's really a CSV file).

So, since I've now received differing opinions about which method is really better, it may make sense to give the opener the option of Excel or CSV.

--Mike

[lordscarlet]

Or you could make an actual excel format file, but either way.. I'm a jerk, but I think people need to learn how to setup their machine to open a CSV in Excel if that's what they want it to do.

[billgulch]

I'll look into making a pure XLS format. Either way, it sounds like I'm going to eventually have to make 2 options to appeal to everyone.

As for the "comparing players" thing :

I have an idea for how I may be able to implement that somewhat easily. The actual size of the information presents a bit of a problem, but I'm considering getting rid of the "bar" section when using the "multiple compare" feature. I'll poke around and hopefully have something to show you guys within the next couple of days.

--Mike

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

That may explain it, I'll pay closer attention to them. But yes, what I really want is to set up my base run/pass splits, then adjust specific scenarios, so I want everything blasted to the places I tell it to go.

Okay, I went into the basic 1Q / Up 17+ screen and re-selected all of my settings in each box with all the checkboxes checked. Pressed the button to save, then switch to the last 2 minutes of the fourth quarter section. The following drop-downs stayed at "100", while all the rest seemed to take my changes:

2nd and 6-7
3rd and 6-7
3rd and 7-8
3rd and 8-9
3rd and 9-10

All other boxes look correct, although others could be broken if they just happened to have the same changes I made. However, this does look like it's just some boxes, rather than the entire feature being broken.

[gstelmack]

I just did the CSV download of my team. Two suggestions:

1) Move the skills to last. Bring over the birthday, experience, height, weight columns to the other ones on the left.

2) Where is the contract data? I can't use this to find out who my about-to-be-free-agents are.

[billgulch]

Hey Greg!

Just a quick question (and this still needs fixing, but it's worth asking) : could those situations be ones you clicked on but actually didn't change from what they were originally set at? I can trigger the change with an "onclick" as well, but I think that may be it.. your answer could help me verify that.

Also, as of now, you can't use the CSV files to look at anything to do with contracts (or downlaod stats either, though both are on the "huge master list" of things to add). I agree it's something that needs adding, though it'll take some coding.

The attributes are listed in the order they appear in the DB. I think I can fix that pretty easily. I'll give it a look. If it's a "one minute or so" thing (I think it is), I'll fix it ASAP.

Thanks!

--Mike

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by billgulch

Just a quick question (and this still needs fixing, but it's worth asking) : could those situations be ones you clicked on but actually didn't change from what they were originally set at? I can trigger the change with an "onclick" as well, but I think that may be it.. your answer could help me verify that.

It is possible. I'll run another test where I change them all and see what changes over there sometime this weekend.

[billgulch]

I fixed the CSV order for you, and now have the matrix set to trigger "onclick" instead of "onchange". The rosters matrix is similarly on click only I believe, so it's probably worth changing as well.

Let me know when you get a chance, and thanks again!

--Mike

[lordscarlet]

Regarding comparison: I don't know if you need the bars for comparison, but they could be nice. I don't know that scrolling is a huge problem for that, but you could certainly make it easier to see more players without the bars.

[Racer]

Looks like my team sucks. 0-3 and I don't think I've even had a close game.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by Racer

Looks like my team sucks. 0-3 and I don't think I've even had a close game.

I sitll think it's too early to tell -- in particular, make sure you look at the score before the half, when your starters were still in.

[lordscarlet]

I am terrible about writing down my ideas, because I know there are some I have forgotten. First, I think this is something we discussed "before", but I really see the "watch game" needing a big overhaul. It takes up a lot of screen real estate without really showing you much. On my laptop (a 13" macbook) I can pretty much only see the "field", the play description, and the QB stats -- with that I can barely fit the clock into the field of view.

I think part of the solution is to put more of the width in view. I also think that the visible stats should be based on posession. By default, you see the offensive team and defensive stats in your "view" and can flip through them (like mlb.com's gameday stuff -- unfortuantely I'm much more familiar with the baseball gameday stuff but I normally watch NFL on TV and not online). I'm also one that loves some negative space and padding around text, but for this I think you can really pull things in more. The "field" and helmets take up a lot of space without much info. If the field did more like the espn.com-esque visualization of a drive, it might be a little more valuable, but seeing as it just shows field position it could probably be shrunken a bit -- perhaps even consider not showing a properly proportioned field, but perhaps just a set of sideline markings or something.

Also, on the "watch" screen, and I believe the box score has basically the same info, I think there should be more info. Averages, QB Rating, sacks allowed, etc. And on the box score (or somewhere) perhaps some drive statistics. Time of posession, perhaps a drive chart, that sort of thing. Right now y ou have to spend a lot of time dissecting the log to get a lot of information -- I wonder if there's someway to summarize formations, yardage gained in those formations, runnign to the left/right, production based on depth of pass (short, med, long), etc. You obviously try to give as much information to people as possible (downloading the roster CSV is excellent), but that can always be improved. I think finding away to give some more detailed summaries of the individual games is one way to improve the information available for reviewing a game.

Again, particularly for grabbing more "casual" players, there is a lot of information available, but it could be made more accessible. Particularly as we are learning the game, that is probably going to be a recurring theme. As we learn it, we'll probably get into more of the meat of the settings.

Oh, also, attribute progression. Do you store that in anyway, or is it only the current attributes? I know that one of the popular features of a couple of FOF league sites is showing the progression of those attributes over time.

That's all for now, but I may be back before I actually fall asleep.

[lordscarlet]

You know, I was thinking about the comparison. I actually wouldn't mind a page that is all my players, with all of their attributes (perhaps a toggle for current/potential) and the ability to do a multi-sort. For instance, if I'm looking for a punt returner and I want to sort by first step, speed and escapability or something like that. Perhaps also give an option to filter by position. As I'm thinking about it, I wonder if a traditional table isn't a better way to go than the side-by-side (especially if you're removing the bars). Although, in theory I guess you can sort side-by-side as well.

I haven't gotten to evaluating stats, since, you know, we don't ahve any game stats yet, but something like Player Statistics - FOWL - Text Sports Network might be nice (Which I pretty much hobbled together based on nfl.com I believe -- I think the professional sports sites are a good place to get good ideas for usability)

[billgulch]

Hey Guys!

There's a lot of really good suggestions so far. To incorporate them all will take quite a bit of time, especially since I got called back into my contract job yesterday afternoon (will be starting Monday... too bad money has to dictate what I do.. ). Anyway...

With my time limited, could I get you guys to reply on the "show stoppers"? My order thusfar is :

* A "depth chart" thing to allow changes to more easily allow changes to the lineups.

* The ability to modify defense using the "intermediate playbook options"

* The ability to compare players on the FA screens, roster screens, etc.

* The ability to sort by player attibutes

Am I missing any "biggies?"

Also, and this is most important : are you guys having fun?

Thanks again!

--Mike

[gstelmack]

1 & 2 are my biggies, and the ones keeping this from being "fun". But I'll stick with it until some of these biggies are fixed up and see how it's playing then. I just don't have time to tweak my team the way I want with some of these issues in the way.

Another item that would help I think is a more directed copy-paste functionality on the intermediate playbook settings. In addition to the "copy everywhere", I'd love to be able to copy the current screen to another specific situation. For example, if I set my "Up 17+ last 2 minutes of fourth quarter" to all 100s, I might want to copy that to the "2-5 minutes left" setting as well rather than having to re-enter 100s in every box of that one. This would be another big time saver.

Instead for now I've got my basics in and am tweaking some of the particular cases every now and then.

[Autumn]

Those seem the biggies to me. The game is fun, I really like the "Watch Game" screen, it's fun to use. But I do find the number of player attributes combined with the difficulties of the roster and depth chart screens daunting. If I could quickly throw together a team and then over time get into the details that would make it a lot more approachable.

And I for one am not expecting you to overhaul the game overnight. I expect we'll keep playing and over time be able to give more nuanced feedback.

[rjolley]

I enjoy the game very much. Having a blast with my teams.

As for the order of the items listed, 1 and 3 are the most important to me.

For #4, will that sorting be available for the FA screen as well?

[Raiders Army]

It is definitely a fun game. I'll post some more thoughts later on. The game is a little cumbersome, but it's definitely better than some of the other ones I've played. At least I haven't seen 225-0 scores.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by billgulch

Hey Guys!

There's a lot of really good suggestions so far. To incorporate them all will take quite a bit of time, especially since I got called back into my contract job yesterday afternoon (will be starting Monday... too bad money has to dictate what I do.. ). Anyway...

With my time limited, could I get you guys to reply on the "show stoppers"? My order thusfar is :

* A "depth chart" thing to allow changes to more easily allow changes to the lineups.

* The ability to modify defense using the "intermediate playbook options"

* The ability to compare players on the FA screens, roster screens, etc.

* The ability to sort by player attibutes

Am I missing any "biggies?"

Also, and this is most important : are you guys having fun?

Thanks again!

--Mike

Congrats on the contract work!

I think that's it for things that really hinder someone's ability to start playing the game.

I am having fun so far, but I think it should get better once the regular season starts. It's very hard to evaluate players right now because they have no stats and I've never played before. Once I can really see how the numbers accumulate over time it will be easier to judge (perhaps there should be a way to select scrimmages and aggregate stats over those games?)

[nfg22]

Anyway I could join? I already have two teams but would be interested in a third. This would probably be my secondary team because the second team I have right now I dont like too much. Thanks!

[Thomkal]

So how many do we need to cut again?

[Raiders Army]

I think you need to get your roster to 53.

[rjolley]

53 is correct, 45 active, 8 inactive.

[lordscarlet]

For more info: DeepRoute.com - Virtual Online Football League / Simulated Football Game - Provided by SimulatedSports.com

[Thomkal]

thanks guys

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by nfg22

Anyway I could join? I already have two teams but would be interested in a third. This would probably be my secondary team because the second team I have right now I dont like too much. Thanks!

You can definitely still jion. Just post your username for Deeproute and Mike will give you a password to join.

[lordscarlet]

Some more quick suggestions:

A "CPU Pick All" for setting your lineup. I just wnet through and did all my cuts, and I know all my starters, but I don't necessarily know my backups. Perhaps even a "CPU Pick All" and a "CPU Pick Backups". Otherwise I have to go in and manually set all of my backups to "CPU" if I want a recommendation to work from. And, still, "copy from scrimmage" would be nice.

In addition, there are a lot of stats that are missing. I think I mentioned some above (such as drive charts). One of the glaring ones is the lack of team stats for a game. In addition, the box score is missing a lot of the averaging numbers such as YPC and QB Rating. I think Sacks Allowed and some others are missing as well. It seems to me that it should have all the same stats as the list of player stats for your team that cumulates over the season. Some stats that would be nice to go with that: Average starting position (box score), run stats for right/left. I think above I also mentioned short/med/long passing numbers.

[Autumn]

I second an easier CPU Recommend option. I like to see what the CPU would do and work from there, but it's too cumbersome to do so here.

[Autumn]

I don't know if this is new, but when I try to cut players I don't like this dialog box that pops up making sure I really want to. The text is so long I didn't read through it all the first time, meaning I didn't realize I had to click Save Changes twice. I ended up losing all my cuts. A warning is good, but not one that long, and probably not one that requires you to go back and do your action again.

[billgulch]

Hey Guys!

I'm in my car at the moment, so I'll keeo it short.

I'll log in when I get home and try to respond to any open issues. I've actually been working on the "compare" thing for the roster screen. It's useful now, but needs a few tweaks before I send it public.

I'll be working this upcoming weekend on some of the other suggestions as well.

Thanks again, and sorry the "real job" had to go and slow things down a bit...

Mike

[Autumn]

triple dola

While I'm at it, I don't get this Contract Renegotiation window that pops up constantly. It appears to be showing my global financial situation, which is great. But the text at the bottom makes me think I am supposed to be doing something. What would it be renegotiating? Is it there because I haven't accepted my contracts or something?

Whatever it actually means I think it's confusing in its current format.

edit: I guess that particular one was an actual contract negotiation with an individual player. But I find it a bit offputting how the roster salary window pops up on top of the roster window, for example.