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Old 01-01-2006, 05:52 PM   #201
Axxon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekneek
So, it isn't immoral to try and hurt the quarterback because they have that covered with the 'roughing the passer' penalty? It is ok to try twist a guy's head around by the facemask because they have a 15-yard facemask penalty in the game? What about a guy who does those things and then tries to claim they were clean plays after the game? Does that guy then reveal he is immoral when he lies about his actions?

Well, I'll admit that the first thought crossed my mind but there needs to be a level beyond merely breaking the rule and deliberately attempting to injure someone and that level needs a much harsher enforcement and I believe there already is.

I was simply covering a specific situation. Your adding your own addendum, ie the attempt to injure, while interesting, is a totally different situation to the one I described.

The answer to part two is yes, if he lies about what he did it's immoral. I'm not sure I'm understanding what you mean since that sounds like too simple a question.
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Old 01-01-2006, 05:56 PM   #202
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Thanks to the blowout in Jacksonville, we folks here in the Pittsburgh area have been switched to the Houston-San Francisco game. I'm probably the only person in the country who's actually WATCHING this right now.
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Old 01-01-2006, 05:56 PM   #203
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It really does seem that way sometimes. The Colts are a great team, and the Patriots have won those recent Super Bowls, but there are a lot of Broncos fans (like me), Bengals fans, Jaguars fans, and Steelers fans who are looking forward to the AFC playoffs, too. As much as I like the Colts as people, I don't like them as a football team because of what they've done to the Broncos in the playoffs recently. I'm pretty sick of the Patriots and would really rather see any AFC team besides them or the Colts win the Super Bowl this year.
Well, I'm a diehard Pats fan, and have been since I was 7 (I'm 34), so one of the reasons us Pats fans celebrate and are fanatical about them is the many years we endured as the bottom feeders of the league (1991 Pats are considered one of the 10 worst teams in NFL history by many pundits). We have some success now and we will live it up while we have it. If the Pats were to lose, I'd rather see the Steelers or the Broncoes take it. I'm loyal to the AFC taking the title -- except the Colts.

My dislike of the Colts stem not from the Pats/Colts feud, but from my intense dislike of Peyton Manning. When the Pats lose (or when the Broncos lose), you don't see the QB's actively blaming other players, but when Manning throws a pick, (at least I) get a distinct impression he immediately blames someone else for the pick. That sort of self-indulgent egoism irritates me, and I delight when he loses.
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Old 01-01-2006, 05:57 PM   #204
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Old 01-01-2006, 05:59 PM   #205
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:01 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by Axxon
The answer to part two is yes, if he lies about what he did it's immoral. I'm not sure I'm understanding what you mean since that sounds like too simple a question.

Ok. I thought you were saying that if there is an established penalty in the game for a particular action then it is not immoral to commit that act, if I follow correctly. I'm just wondering if it is possible that there are immoral acts 'within the game' that became so prevalent that a penalty had to be created to deal with them. That they are not just "a part of the game" but rather something had to be done to deal with it instead of just waiting for them to be fined on Monday/Tuesday.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:02 PM   #207
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We're in big trouble for a few years. (from an Eagles Fan).
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:03 PM   #208
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Dola

Who gives a shit about your penalties/moral crap. I came to this thread expecting talk about Week 17 football. Please start a new thread.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:03 PM   #209
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We're in big trouble for a few years. (from an Eagles Fan).

I disagree. I think you'll be back in the playoffs next year.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:03 PM   #210
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Oh boy. Koy Detmer is in.

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Old 01-01-2006, 06:03 PM   #211
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Well, I'm a diehard Pats fan, and have been since I was 7 (I'm 34), so one of the reasons us Pats fans celebrate and are fanatical about them is the many years we endured as the bottom feeders of the league (1991 Pats are considered one of the 10 worst teams in NFL history by many pundits). We have some success now and we will live it up while we have it. If the Pats were to lose, I'd rather see the Steelers or the Broncoes take it. I'm loyal to the AFC taking the title -- except the Colts.

Oh, I can understand all of that. I loved it when the Broncos finally won a Super Bowl, and I was ecstatic when they won another. My comments aren't exclusive to Patriots fans, but I just get amazed at how angry people get over someone insulting their favorite team. When I lived in New Orleans, I used to get into it with Saints fans. Sure, the Saints are an easy target, but I don't think I knew anybody who got upset when I poked fun at them. I didn't get mad when they came back at me because the Broncos haven't won a playoff game since Elway retired.

Sorry, I don't claim to be better than anybody else. I just think it's funny to see people get all bent out of shape with anger over this kind of stuff. I don't know any Raiders or Chiefs fans personally, but I don't think I'd get into a heated argument with any of them just because we hate each other's teams. Like I said, maybe I'm just not fanatical enough, but I just don't get it. If it's fun for everybody else, though, enjoy.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:03 PM   #212
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Texans and Niners are going to overtime!
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:06 PM   #213
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Oh, I can understand all of that. I loved it when the Broncos finally won a Super Bowl, and I was ecstatic when they won another. My comments aren't exclusive to Patriots fans, but I just get amazed at how angry people get over someone insulting their favorite team. When I lived in New Orleans, I used to get into it with Saints fans. Sure, the Saints are an easy target, but I don't think I knew anybody who got upset when I poked fun at them. I didn't get mad when they came back at me because the Broncos haven't won a playoff game since Elway retired.

Sorry, I don't claim to be better than anybody else. I just think it's funny to see people get all bent out of shape with anger over this kind of stuff. I don't know any Raiders or Chiefs fans personally, but I don't think I'd get into a heated argument with any of them just because we hate each other's teams. Like I said, maybe I'm just not fanatical enough, but I just don't get it. If it's fun for everybody else, though, enjoy.

I don't get bent out of shape - I was actually trying to mock the very thing you're describing. I agree with you.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:07 PM   #214
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Oh boy. Koy Detmer is in.

We should have had him in there all along. Mike looks like he has no clue how to play the QB position in general. Sure Koy throws like a girl, but at least he has an understanding of this offense.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:07 PM   #215
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My dislike of the Colts stem not from the Pats/Colts feud, but from my intense dislike of Peyton Manning. When the Pats lose (or when the Broncos lose), you don't see the QB's actively blaming other players, but when Manning throws a pick, (at least I) get a distinct impression he immediately blames someone else for the pick. That sort of self-indulgent egoism irritates me, and I delight when he loses.

I think you summed up my feelings on the subject pretty nicely. I think Tony Dungy and the Colts are a class act, besides Manning. If Manning were an officer in the Army, I picture him getting wounded by "accidental" friendly fire. It's kind of a unique rivalry in the sense that I don't think many Pats fans actively root against the Colts so much as they root against Manning (see the "cut that meat" taunt last season). Like if Carson Palmer QB'd them, I don't think you'd see half as much ire.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:07 PM   #216
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Even I've never like Mike, even while he was at Rutgers. Fuck em, go Koy!
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This is like watching a car wreck. But one where, every so often, someone walks over and punches the driver in the face as he struggles to free himself from the wreckage.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:08 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by WVUFAN
My dislike of the Colts stem not from the Pats/Colts feud, but from my intense dislike of Peyton Manning. When the Pats lose (or when the Broncos lose), you don't see the QB's actively blaming other players, but when Manning throws a pick, (at least I) get a distinct impression he immediately blames someone else for the pick. That sort of self-indulgent egoism irritates me, and I delight when he loses.

Have you felt that way for this entire career, or just since the rivalry started to heat up? He has thrown 130 INTs in his career. Do you think he has really tried to blame other players for all of them? Just half of them?

I am not saying this is the case for you, but I think most fans see what they want to see. When you already have a bias, you look for things that reinforce your position. Most people seem to think Peyton is a great guy and Tom is one too. Unfortunately, that just isn't good enough to accept for fans caught up in the hype/rivalry.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:08 PM   #218
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In a division that pretty much sucked. Pardon me for being underwhelmed by the accomplishment.

Because of the schedule, New England actually had an above-average strength of schedule. Nothing like San Diego's, but a hell of a lot tougher than Indianapolis' schedule.

Right now, Indianapolis is sitting tied at 3rd to last in strength of schedule, mainly because they played Tennessee and Houston a lot. So, are they that good? Probably, because they met the challenge when they did play good teams.

But New England has played well this season, too. While Indy would be favored by a lot at home, you can't deny New England has a decent chance.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:08 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Tekneek
Ok. I thought you were saying that if there is an established penalty in the game for a particular action then it is not immoral to commit that act, if I follow correctly. I'm just wondering if it is possible that there are immoral acts 'within the game' that became so prevalent that a penalty had to be created to deal with them. That they are not just "a part of the game" but rather something had to be done to deal with it instead of just waiting for them to be fined on Monday/Tuesday.

Oh no, I'm not saying that an act isn't immoral simply because there's a penalty for it. Not at all. Murder is still an immoral act even though there's a penalty for it. I'm simply saying there's no intrinsic moral issue with bumping a receiver for example or any other example of merely breaking a football established rule. Trying to injure someone doesn't fit this bill.

When you act dishonestly though, and assuming that you consider immoral, then it's immoral. I do consider dishonesty immoral so I have a problem with it in general.

I'd never consider someone immoral for talking on a cell phone but when you are in charge of the rules and you fine a player on a division rival for trivially breaking it but you willingly engage in the same behaviour with your own coach in a situation with playoff implications and then due to your position duck the penalty that's immoral.

To answer the rest of the post, I'd say yes. The head slap rule, the rules to protect qb's etc are rules that are in place less for competetive reasons but for safety and as a discouragement to committing certain acts which would give you an advantage but are immoral to do ie injure someone.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:09 PM   #220
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FWIW, I've never been a Saints fan, but I am hoping that the Texans pull this game out so they can get the first draft pick down there in New Orleans. As bad as the Texans and 49ers have been this year, I find it absolutely hilarious that they could both blow their chance at the #1 pick (well, the Niners have already blown it). To me, the Saints have fairly quietly gone 3-13 while the Texans and 49ers have basically been running gags all year. For teams that haven't done anything right all year, this would just completely cap it off.

GO TEXANS GO!
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:09 PM   #221
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I disagree. I think you'll be back in the playoffs next year.

Could be with the way the NFL is today. But nonetheless, I don't like this team in many different ways. The defense has progressively gotten worse each year, and we will be without a #1 WR next year. Brian Westbrook is NOT a #1 NFL back, and it makes me sick that he'll be our go to guy for the next few years because of the contract he got. Man, I really wish they saved that money, and gave it (and then some) to Shawn Alexander next year.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:10 PM   #222
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But New England has played well this season, too. While Indy would be favored by a lot at home, you can't deny New England has a decent chance.

They're going to have to get through Jacksonville and Denver first, because Pittsburgh is a lock to beat the Bengals next week.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:11 PM   #223
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The 49ers get booed on their first possession in overtime. Now the Texans are starting from their own 30. Tony Banks is in and will try to lead the Texans to victory! Of course, they'll probably get to the red zone and then Kris Brown will miss another field goal. I think Brown has missed a couple on purpose this year.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:11 PM   #224
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I think you summed up my feelings on the subject pretty nicely. I think Tony Dungy and the Colts are a class act, besides Manning. If Manning were an officer in the Army, I picture him getting wounded by "accidental" friendly fire. It's kind of a unique rivalry in the sense that I don't think many Pats fans actively root against the Colts so much as they root against Manning (see the "cut that meat" taunt last season). Like if Carson Palmer QB'd them, I don't think you'd see half as much ire.

Yup. I have a lot of respect for Dungy and for Marvin Harrison, whom I believe is the 2nd best WR in the league (I think Hines Ward is the best pure WR in the bunch due to his toughness and willingness to take one for the team), but Manning really irks me. Oddly enough, I don't feel the same about Eli. Eli seems to have a much more team-oriented attitude than Manning.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:12 PM   #225
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It's getting late early in Dallas....
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This is like watching a car wreck. But one where, every so often, someone walks over and punches the driver in the face as he struggles to free himself from the wreckage.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:13 PM   #226
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Could be with the way the NFL is today. But nonetheless, I don't like this team in many different ways. The defense has progressively gotten worse each year, and we will be without a #1 WR next year. Brian Westbrook is NOT a #1 NFL back, and it makes me sick that he'll be our go to guy for the next few years because of the contract he got. Man, I really wish they saved that money, and gave it (and then some) to Shawn Alexander next year.

If you mean that running back in Seattle, he has got to be the most overrated guy in the NFL. That offensive line deserves most of the credit he gets.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:13 PM   #227
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In overtime, the "go-to guys" for Tony Banks are Marcellus Rivers and Vernand Morency. This is comedy at its finest.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:13 PM   #228
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Dola

Who gives a shit about your penalties/moral crap. I came to this thread expecting talk about Week 17 football. Please start a new thread.

Sorry, but I see no reason to honor this request. I don't even know you nor do I give one half a worthless crap about what you expect.

No offense but if you expect FOFC to remain specifically on topic you need to shut the fuck up and read more. Most threads don't remain even marginally on topic like this one has and hear those crickets chirping sparky??

No one else has their panties in a bunch over a handfull of posts talking about week 16 of the NFL season.

Don't blame us because your miserable excuse of a team is tanking the season and this week in particular. If they weren't maybe there'd be less off week discussion hmm.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:14 PM   #229
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In overtime, the "go-to guys" for Tony Banks are Marcellus Rivers and Vernand Morency. This is comedy at its finest.

Is there anybody actually in the stadium? Other than the players and the coaching staff?
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:15 PM   #230
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Somewhere the GM/Owner of Houston is going nuts. Hell, If I were him, I'd throw some extra cash at Capers to purposely blow this game.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:15 PM   #231
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Have you felt that way for this entire career, or just since the rivalry started to heat up? He has thrown 130 INTs in his career. Do you think he has really tried to blame other players for all of them? Just half of them?
Good question. My dislike of Manning began in his first playoff loss to New England in 2003, so you may have a good point there. That's the first time I really began to notice his attitude.

Quote:

I am not saying this is the case for you, but I think most fans see what they want to see. When you already have a bias, you look for things that reinforce your position. Most people seem to think Peyton is a great guy and Tom is one too. Unfortunately, that just isn't good enough to accept for fans caught up in the hype/rivalry.
No, you have a good point, and you may be completely correct, I hadn't considered that before. Probably not gonna change my opinion of him, but you're probably right.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:15 PM   #232
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Sorry, but I see no reason to honor this request. I don't even know you nor do I give one half a worthless crap about what you expect.

No offense but if you expect FOFC to remain specifically on topic you need to shut the fuck up and read more. Most threads don't remain even marginally on topic like this one has and hear those crickets chirping sparky??

No one else has their panties in a bunch over a handfull of posts talking about week 16 of the NFL season.

Don't blame us because your miserable excuse of a team is tanking the season and this week in particular. If they weren't maybe there'd be less off week discussion hmm.


You sir, are a piece of shit.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:16 PM   #233
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Because of the schedule, New England actually had an above-average strength of schedule. Nothing like San Diego's, but a hell of a lot tougher than Indianapolis' schedule.

On a glance, Indy has 5 wins against playoff teams and New England has 2. Does that not mean anything?

Quote:
But New England has played well this season, too. While Indy would be favored by a lot at home, you can't deny New England has a decent chance.

No doubt they have a decent chance. Some say playing out the rest of the playoffs are a technicality, though.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:16 PM   #234
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Come on, Koy, do it for your home state!
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:16 PM   #235
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Dola-

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Old 01-01-2006, 06:17 PM   #236
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You sir, are a piece of shit.

I didn't read this thread to see profanity. Please start a new one for that kind of talk.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:17 PM   #237
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Texans WR Corey Bradford and 49ers SS Keith Lewis had a hugfest at midfield, only moments after Lewis broke up a third-down pass attempt. Instead of Bradford being upset that he didn't catch the ball or Lewis being happy to force a punt, the players take the time to have a laugh with each other in overtime. I'm telling you, this is the funniest game in the NFL all year!
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:17 PM   #238
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Somewhere the GM/Owner of Houston is going nuts. Hell, If I were him, I'd throw some extra cash at Capers to purposely blow this game.

Ah, now I get why discussing morals would bother you so much.

Didn't know you posted here Pete. Loved you with the Reds.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:17 PM   #239
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WTF!
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:17 PM   #240
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If you mean that running back in Seattle, he has got to be the most overrated guy in the NFL. That offensive line deserves most of the credit he gets.

Fair enough, but that case can be made for a lot of guys around the league. Just how good is Larry Johnson, he does run behind one of the best lines in recent memory.

It should be interesting to see what Bush does next year running behind someone's terrible line.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:17 PM   #241
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Sheesh, the Eagles' quarterbacks can't hold onto the ball.

Just disgusting.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:18 PM   #242
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I'm really proud of my Dolphins. I was hoping for a 5 win season and thought 6 wins would be a miracle. 9-7 is a gift from Santa, and I would surely blow him for it.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:18 PM   #243
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Fair enough, but that case can be made for a lot of guys around the league. Just how good is Larry Johnson, he does run behind one of the best lines in recent memory.

It should be interesting to see what Bush does next year running behind someone's terrible line.

I think Larry Johnson is better than Alexander. I think Tiki Barber is better than Alexander. I think Bush will do very well - better than McGahee in Buffalo.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:18 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by st.cronin
Is there anybody actually in the stadium? Other than the players and the coaching staff?

The 49ers cheerleaders are having a Sapphic orgy in the south end zone. Not outside the end zone. IN the end zone. All sixteen fans in attendance are now seated in the south end zone seats. The ball is currently on the north end of the field.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:19 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Philliesfan980
You sir, are a piece of shit.

But I've never claimed to be anything else nor did I try and enforce my will arbitrarily against someone I didn't know. Nor do I support paying coaches to tanking games.

Yes sir, I'm a piece of shit. I'll grant you that, but I'm not Philliesfan980 so considering the alternatives, I'll thank my lucky stars to be what I am.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:20 PM   #246
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Ah, now I get why discussing morals would bother you so much.

Didn't know you posted here Pete. Loved you with the Reds.

The NFL is a business. Would I want my team to throw the game to get possibly the best draft pick in recent memory? YES! Now the players of course won't feel this way, because nothing is certain in terms of job security in the NFL, but if I'm the GM or Owner, yeah, I'd want to lose this game. The drop off between 1 and 2 is huge this year. Do I really want D Bricksaw Fergison or whatever his name is (I believe the T out of Virginia).
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:21 PM   #247
Pumpy Tudors
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Overtime is half over in San Francisco. The 49ers have had two possessions. The Texans have had one. Neither team has crossed midfield with the ball yet. The Niners are about to punt toward the orgy.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:21 PM   #248
WVUFAN
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Originally Posted by Philliesfan980
The NFL is a business.

This isn't a business discussion. Please start a new thread.
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:21 PM   #249
RendeR
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Say goodnight the Parties over, Dallas' playoff hopes are dead and gone......



Yeehaaa.....

How bout them redskins *lol*
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Old 01-01-2006, 06:22 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Tekneek
On a glance, Indy has 5 wins against playoff teams and New England has 2. Does that not mean anything?

Of course. But you're changing the argument. You said New England's crappy divisional schedule meant their record is invalid, when they in fact played in a division with the same record from the other three teams (if Houston loses).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekneek
No doubt they have a decent chance. Some say playing out the rest of the playoffs are a technicality, though.

I didn't. Indy should be favored for many reasons.
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