Brady - Manning

[jeff061]

And to expound on that, since my simplified post still didn't penetrate to you.

All things being equal, Manning performs good during the regular season and bad in the playoffs. Do you not understand this? He plays the same team twice, plays it good once than like a child the second time.

[kurtism]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I am not even talking about winning and losing. I am talking performance out of the QB position furing the regular season and then the play offs.

Actually, no, you are not. You are talking about performance against New England in the playoffs. Your own statements have already utterly disregarded the results when Indy played Denver and Kansas City. Shockingly, Indy is 3-0 in those games and Peyton was brilliant. So state your point honestly, if not well: Peyton has bad games in the playoffs against the Patriots. Can't refute that. Until Indy beats the Pats in the playoffs, I won't be able to.

Doesn't change my position on Manning's abilities, and won't change yours either, I'm sure. But at least I won't have to "dance" around your points any longer.

[jeff061]

No you still are. New England is not the only team he lost games to. If he played the Steelers last year the outcome would of been the same.

And when I say lost, I mean Manning lost the game, not the Colts.

[kurtism]

Originally Posted by jeff061

No you still are. New England is not the only team he lost games to. If he played the Steelers last year the outcome would of been the same.

And when I saw lost, I mean Manning lost the game, not the Colts.

Congratulations, you are psychic! Glad to see you can predict the outcomes of games that never happened. Oh, if only I had your wisdom, insight, and abilities!

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Because of what, the defense?

Right, cause Manning 0-3 start in the playoffs was because of the defense, see look:

 Year  Opp   Result  |  CMP  ATT   PYD PTD INT  |  RSH    YD  TD
---------------------+--------------------------+-----------------
 1999  ten  L,16-19  |   19   43   227   0   0  |    2    22   1
 2000  mia  L,17-23  |   17   32   194   1   0  |    1    -2   0
 2002  nyj  L,0-41   |   14   31   137   0   2  |    1     2   0

For those with a short memory. Mannings other gems.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by kurtism

Congratulations, you are psychic! Glad to see you can predict the outcomes of games that never happened. Oh, if only I had your wisdom, insight, and abilities!

Don't be a dick. Look at every playoff game he played and the teams he played, a child would come to the same conclusion. But you are just off in fantasy land again.

[Desnudo]

Jets 41 - Colts 0

[kurtism]

This guy:

1996  car  L,17-26  |   18   36   165   1   3  |    1     0   0
 1998  ari  L,7-20   |   22   49   191   1   3  |    1     0   0
 1999  min  L,10-27  |   22   38   286   0   1  |    0     0   0

and this guy:

1995  gnb  L,17-27  |   32   65   328   0   2  |    9    77   1
1997  gnb  L,10-23  |   23   38   250   0   1  |    2     1   0
1998  atl  L,18-20  |   23   37   289   1   3  |    6    19   1

obviously suck as well... Just ignore their good games!

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I don't give a crap about Brady, I defend the guy as a homer but the crux of my argument is anti-Manning.

This is exactly why your argument is worthless. You don't give a damn about facts, your a homer and a hater, nothing objective truly matters to your argument because in your gut you're going to promote one and diss the other no matter what information is given.

Side by side, these two quarterbacks compare like so:

Peyton Manning will be in the Hall of Fame one day following his first year of eligibility
Tom brady will probably get in also, about 15 years after he's eligible.

Peyton is the better Quarterback, skills, knowledge and ability period.
Brady is a GOOD quarterback, but I don't consider him the top 5 in the league, let alone the best when it comes down to being a QUARTERBACK.

[jeff061]

Render once again, I take Brady over Manning because of Manning's failures more than Brady's positives. Brady happens to be the topic of this discussion but you could swap his name with a few others.

Kurt, I'm not ignoring his good games. Show me a good game he had against a team with any defense at all to speak of, even in a losing effort. He's had plenty of oppurtunities, shouldn't be to hard.

All things being equal, Manning performs good during the regular season and bad in the playoffs. Do you not understand this? He plays the same team twice, plays it good once than like a child the second time.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Side by side, these two quarterbacks compare like so:

Peyton Manning will be in the Hall of Fame one day following his first year of eligibility
Tom brady will probably get in also, about 15 years after he's eligible.

I don't stand with Jeff on all of his points; my argument is that, while in many cases 'clutch' performance is exalted and hyperbolized, in the case of Brady and Manning it is such a slam dunk which one has been a better clutch performer that it seems silly to want Manning over Brady as your QB.

But I've already said THAT - the point of this post was to highlight that sentence above and make Render look silly to all the world.

Cause that's just a stupid thing to say - it would be like if I said "Derek Jeter has a decent chance of someday making the hall of fame if he keeps it up for a few more years."

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Kurt, I'm not ignoring his good games. Show me a good game he had against a team with any defense at all to speak of, even in a losing effort. He's had plenty of oppurtunities, shouldn't be to hard.

The 2003 Broncos had the #3 defense in the NFL, and were #6 in passing yardage allowed. Manning was 22-26, 377 yards, 5 TD, 0 INT in that game.

The 2004 Broncos were the #4 defense in the NFL and were #6 in passing yardage allowed. Manning was 27-33, 457 yards, 4 TD, 1 INT in that game.

You're right, that wasn't very hard.

[boilermaker]

It's Marino vs. Montana for this generation. Except, this generation's Marino is surrounded by Pro Bowlers and Hall of Famers while this generation's Montana has carried his team squarely on his shoulders, with the help of one great kicker.

It's not even close. Brady.

[kurtism]

Originally Posted by boilermaker

It's Marino vs. Montana for this generation. Except, this generation's Marino is surrounded by Pro Bowlers and Hall of Famers while this generation's Montana has carried his team squarely on his shoulders, with the help of one great kicker.

It's not even close. Brady.

Rodney Harrison, Teddy Bruschi, Richard Seymour, Ty Law, Mike Vrabel, Corey Dillon, and the current Super Bowl MVP think you aren't respecting them. Disrespect makes baby Jesus cry.

[jeff061]

Was thinking 2003 was KC for some reason.

So in the end, if you are content with 2 good games, 1 against KC, and 5 poor ones. I guess that's where this ends.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by kurtism

Rodney Harrison, Teddy Bruschi, Richard Seymour, Ty Law, Mike Vrabel, Corey Dillon, and the current Super Bowl MVP think you aren't respecting them. Disrespect makes baby Jesus cry.

Dillon for one year, which no doubt made him better, but he won two super bowls(playing well in both) with Antoine Smith. The rest helped out the offense how? The defense has nothing to do with how the QB performs.

[kurtism]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Dillon for one year, which no doubt made him better, but he one 2 supoer bowls with Antoine Smith. The rest helped out he offense how? The defense has nothing to do with how the QB performs.

Oookay, then. Can't argue with this logic.

[jeff061]

I sense the sarcasm but I'm not sure why. If Manning had players of equal skill level would he have put 20 more points on the board in the games he struggled in?

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Was thinking 2003 was KC for some reason.

So in the end, if you are content with 2 good games, 1 against KC, and 5 poor ones. I guess that's where this ends.

I'm not content with anything. I just simply busted you on your implication that he hadn't had any good games against good defenses in the playoffs.

Which was predictably and quickly followed by your argument changing from "he hasn't had any good games in the playoffs against good defenses" to "well he's only had two" in the next post.

Go do some research and come back when you have everything in order. I'm not nearly as emotional about this subject as you clearly are, but that's okay. I'll still listen. Let it all out.

[jeff061]

Yeah you did. I put my foot in my mouth on that point. He had two impessive games. He still has a ratio I consider unacceptable, especially when compared to how flawless he is during the regular season. If you find it acceptable then there is nothing more to argue on.

[jeff061]

Let me make this clear, if he performed in the post season 75% as well as he does during the regular season I'd take him over just about any QB in the history of the game, EASILY over Brady. This may come to fruition in the future, but he hasn't proved it yet. Brady has.

I'm exaggerating my criticisms on Manning so people stop looking at my Brady support, since that's really not what I'm trying to argue and that's not going to go anywhere. There is nothing tangible to argue with when it comes to Brady's talent.

[Raiders Army]

Manning chokes on Brady's jockstrap. That being said, both of them are not equal to the greatness of the Raiders.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by jeff061

The defense has nothing to do with how the QB performs.

Are you totally football ignorant or just trying to confuse everyone? Cause if you believe this load of crap you truly no nothing about the sport.

[Daimyo]

As a Pats fan if you had to chose between Brady and Belichick to stay with the team and the other would never have any involvement again, which would you choose to keep?

As a Colts fan I'd much prefer the Pats lost Belichick than Brady (and I think Brady has developed into a top 3 QB!).

[boilermaker]

Originally Posted by kurtism

Rodney Harrison, Teddy Bruschi, Richard Seymour, Ty Law, Mike Vrabel, Corey Dillon, and the current Super Bowl MVP think you aren't respecting them. Disrespect makes baby Jesus cry.

Well, correct, I should have qualified my statement regarding "offense". The weapons Manning has had over his career are overwhelmingly superior to Brady's if you consider accomplishments, accolades, and draft pick position. It's arguable that Manning has played with three other future Hall of Famers on his offense. The only 1st Rounder I can think of off the top of my head on the New England offense was Terry Glenn, and he wasn't a major factor in the New England offense when Brady was starting. I could be wrong, but that's how I remember it.

[judicial clerk]

I think Willie McGinnest would have given Manning a Code Red after one week on the team, resulting in his father demanding a trade to the Giants.

Check and mate.

Being the QB is about more than just having a quick release or leading the league in audibles, it is about being behind in the fourth quarter of the superbowl and still taking time to notice john candy in the crowd.

Just ask the Eagles if they would rather have McNabb or Brady when the game is on the line. Same goes for the Rams and the Panthers. As Rick James would say, "Tom Brady, your cold as ice!"

BTW, I hate that cocksucker Brady. Tuck rule my ass. What kind of bullshit is that!?!

In conclusion, I reluctantly choose Brady.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Jets 41 - Colts 0

best post award

[Daimyo]

There seems to be some confusion among Pats fans that the Colts actually have had a good running game since 2001! You guys might remember that Edge suffered a devastating injury in 2001, missed most of that season and then basically sucked for the next two years? It wasn't until last season that you could even start to compare him to his 1999/2000 form, but IMO he still comes up well short.

Here are stats again pulled from footballoutsiders.com. In addition to doing DPAR for individual players they rate teams (off, def, st) on every play and provide a stat for percent above or below league average. This table lists the Colts and Pats rushing offenses since 2001. As you can see they were both at or below league average up until last season when Edge was mostly recovered and the Pats got Dillon. Two out of four seasons, Brady has actually had a better rushing game than Manning (although I'm not sure you can really say either was helped much by it pre-2004).

Rushing Offense: (percent better than average)

Year	IND	NE
2004	+9.4%	+12.2%
2003	-3.2%	-7.8%
2002	-2.4%	+1.6%
2001	-3.1%	-14.8%

Same stat, this time for total team defense. I think you can clearly see who has had the edge here.
Total Defense: (percent better than average)

Year	IND	NE
2004	-2.3%	+9.1%
2003	-2.2%	+22.0%
2002	-7.4%	+3.4%
2001	-16.1%	+3.4%

[wade moore]

I heart Daimyo.