New Orleans Modern Day version of "Sodom and Gomorrah"

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

You're not even trying to understand what I'm saying.

What purpose does science serve?

What purpose does religion serve?

If you think the answer to those two questions is the same or even overlapping, then we have to agree to disagree. But in that case I would guess you haven't spent much time thinking about it.

Ooooooo. An insult!

But upon further examination...I see your point.

I believe the answer to both questions is the same, however. The answer is: to make life better. So then we have to agree to disagree?

[st.cronin]

It wasn't meant as an insult, but I do have a degree in this stuff.

I didn't mean to get drawn into this - I just always get alarmed when people posit a science v. religion position. It's a false dichotomy. Most americans embrace both.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I can't wait for you to learn who this board's all time advocate of "butt sex" is. Based on what we've heard, I'd think you'd be well aware of this.

I'm really hoping this doesnt go unappreciated.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

It wasn't meant as an insult, but I do have a degree in this stuff.

I didn't mean to get drawn into this - I just always get alarmed when people posit a science v. religion position. It's a false dichotomy. Most americans embrace both.

Ah. But you didn't really answer my response. Both science and religion are meant to make life better for us. Do you agree with that or disagree?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Ah. But you didn't really answer my response. Both science and religion are meant to make life better for us. Do you agree with that or disagree?

Well, I think you're referring more to 'technology' than 'science' but for argument's sake I will agree.

But that is a very broad answer - too broad to explain why you think they are in competition.

[Cringer]

Well, not to get too caught up in this whole mess, but I have heard several religious type folk try to explain how dinosuars fit into the time frame the bible gives us for our planet, which kind of is competing to me, since this cleary argues against what science tells us about the age of dinosuars.

[jeff061]

As an easy example, why does stem cell research see so much resistance, not to mention cloning.

[Franklinnoble]

I prefer to think of myself as a faithful person, not a religious person. Organized religion has exploited its share of people over the years.

I believe we are saved by faith, through the grace of Jesus Christ. If we had to be saved by our works, we'd be in big trouble. As so many of you have pointed out, I've posted stuff here that calls into question my moral fortitude - which is fine. I've stated before that I held myself in contempt over my lack of discretion, and I've asked to be held accountable. But the Lord has saved far more wretched souls than my own, and for that, I feel lucky.

I do want to make one thing clear - when I share my faith here, it is not out of hate. I do not hate gays, liberals, democrats, or anyone else. I certainly do not hate anyone here on this board. If I lose my temper over a heated subject, it is because I am as fallible as anyone else, and I can be just as passionate about my beliefs as anyone else. To be honest, I've enjoyed spending time here - and I enjoy talking football and video games with you guys. If I'm beating you over the head with the Bible - it's truly out of love, and not hate. I really hope you understand that.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Well, not to get too caught up in this whole mess, but I have heard several religious type folk try to explain how dinosuars fit into the time frame the bible gives us for our planet, which kind of is competing to me, since this cleary argues against what science tells us about the age of dinosuars.

God put those bones there to test our faith, dude.

[capsicum]

My religion is faith based. Its my Faith in god that insures my salvation. My salvation isnt controlled by my religion but by my faith in GOD. The lord is my light and my salvation: whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

Psalm 27 (King James Version)


1.The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

2.When the wicked, even mine enemies and my foes, came upon me to eat up my flesh, they stumbled and fell.

3.Though an host should encamp against me, my heart shall not fear: though war should rise against me, in this will I be confident.

4.One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple.

5.For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.

6.And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD.

7.Hear, O LORD, when I cry with my voice: have mercy also upon me, and answer me.

8.When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek.

9.Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation.

10.When my father and my mother forsake me, then the LORD will take me up.

11.Teach me thy way, O LORD, and lead me in a plain path, because of mine enemies.

12.Deliver me not over unto the will of mine enemies: for false witnesses are risen up against me, and such as breathe out cruelty.

13.I had fainted, unless I had believed to see the goodness of the LORD in the land of the living.

14.Wait on the LORD: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the LORD.


I dont believe religion is to "make life better".
I believe Bible based religion helps grow peoples faith, and faith in God spreads hope "which improves peoples outlook on life" and salvation to ALL of Gods children. Just my opinion of course.

[jeff061]

People who put stock in passages and verses hold the beliefs that irritate me.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Well, not to get too caught up in this whole mess, but I have heard several religious type folk try to explain how dinosuars fit into the time frame the bible gives us for our planet, which kind of is competing to me, since this cleary argues against what science tells us about the age of dinosuars.

Those folks are also confused. And most people, even church going americans, support stem cell research. Most americans embrace both science and religion.

[capsicum]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

I prefer to think of myself as a faithful person, not a religious person. Organized religion has exploited its share of people over the years.

I believe we are saved by faith, through the grace of Jesus Christ. If we had to be saved by our works, we'd be in big trouble. As so many of you have pointed out, I've posted stuff here that calls into question my moral fortitude - which is fine. I've stated before that I held myself in contempt over my lack of discretion, and I've asked to be held accountable. But the Lord has saved far more wretched souls than my own, and for that, I feel lucky.

I do want to make one thing clear - when I share my faith here, it is not out of hate. I do not hate gays, liberals, democrats, or anyone else. I certainly do not hate anyone here on this board. If I lose my temper over a heated subject, it is because I am as fallible as anyone else, and I can be just as passionate about my beliefs as anyone else. To be honest, I've enjoyed spending time here - and I enjoy talking football and video games with you guys. If I'm beating you over the head with the Bible - it's truly out of love, and not hate. I really hope you understand that.

Gosh I love my husband! Even if he calls me up , steals my thoughts , types faster, posts quicker and writes better then I do . Now about them vikings.......

[jeff061]

But Bush hesitates to fully support it in order to keep the far right religious voters under his wing.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by jeff061

But Bush hesitates to fully support it in order to keep the far right religious voters under his wing.

Actually, I believe he hesitates to fully support it because he thinks it is wrong. I don't believe that is a political calculation.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Those folks are also confused. And most people, even church going americans, support stem cell research. Most americans embrace both science and religion.

Case in point - stem cell research has great potential, and it doesn't have to be embryonic stem cell research. The only problem people have with stem cells is when embryos are killed to harvest them.

We don't need to start the whole "but is an embryo a person" debate again... but you can see the point of view there.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Actually, I believe he hesitates to fully support it because he thinks it is wrong. I don't believe that is a political calculation.

Everything is a political calculation, for every politician. Period.

Why does he think it's wrong?

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by capsicum

Gosh I love my husband! Even if he calls me up , steals my thoughts , types faster, posts quicker and writes better then I do . Now about them vikings.......

I'm sorry...


... but Mike Tice is the problem with your Vikings. That, and I think Culpepper needs some stick-um.

[capsicum]

Originally Posted by jeff061

People who put stock in passages and verses hold the beliefs that irritate me.

As those that do not continually irritate me.

Sigh...life goes on.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Everything is a political calculation, for every politician. Period.

Why does he think it's wrong?

I don't think Bush has too many political calculations remaining. He can't run again, and it's not like he's got much of a political career after 2008.

Like I said above, I think he only has a problem with embryonic stem cells. Adult stem cell research is something I'm guessing he has no problem with.

[capsicum]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

I'm sorry...


... but Mike Tice is the problem with your Vikings. That, and I think Culpepper needs some stick-um.

See what I mean about stealing my thoughts???

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Everything is a political calculation, for every politician. Period.

Why does he think it's wrong?

Bush has gone against the political calculus quite a few times. Example #1: Invading Iraq, an unpopular decision.

I don't really know what's in his head, I'm just guessing. I really can't explain why people think stem cell research is bad. It's just a weird position to take.

[capsicum]

hmmn I wish I still had an Uncle in the "booth" .

It was nice getting to go to any regular NFL game I wanted to for free basically. Just think last time I got free tickets Brad Johnson was still a viking...now he is back, maybe it time to give Vern a call...

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by jeff061

That's fantastic. I salute you Glengoyne .

I nearly said "painfully aware", but thought better of it. But since I've now been saluted, Why not?

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by jeff061

If you believe life revolves around God, Satan, Heaven and Hell, ect, then yeah, I think there has got to be a screw loose(too put it more bluntly than I should).

Well my life does revolve around God and certainly not around Satan. God has blessed me with a beautiful wife and son, a good life and more blessings then I can count. But my faith allows me to attribute those things to Him. Without getting into details I believe there have been a few events in my life where there was some divine intervention on my behalf - I was in a bad car wreck and everyone walked away without a scratch - the cars were totalled but the people were fine. Some people chalk things like that up to luck - I prefer to believe there was a higher power at work. If that means I have a screw loose in your mind then so be it.

Originally Posted by jeff061

Religion, as a whole, does nothing good for the world or the human civilization, it teaches a backwards way of thinking and intelorance based around what God wants and approves of. If you need it in order to feel better about your life, then you are using the bible as a crutch, something you shouldn't and don't need.

Ok, if religion teaches people to be intolerant then what taught you to be intolerant of religious teachings and religious people since you are not religious? Or is it ok to have no respect for religion or its followers because some of them have no respect and tolerance for people who practice things they oppose? Perhaps its the people who are intolerant but it's good to know you are willing to paint a massive group of people with such a broad brush. I'm curious as to how you can insult people for having faith and label them intolerant when you practice the exact same thing.

I'm also sorry you feel that religious people use their religion as a crutch. Personally, I draw strength from my faith. Where do you draw strength from or do you never have tragedy in your life? Maybe you never have had a bad day I doubt it though. Surely at some point in your life you experienced something bad - where did you turn at that point? Family? Friends? A group of individuals who share the same beliefs you do? Are those things crutches that aren't needed as well? Why do you feel the need to degrade those who have religious faith? If you don't that's fine by me - but I'm not posting that you are a whackjob and telling you that you better get to church or you're going to hell. I'm not posting that atheists have a "screw loose". If you don't believe in it that's fine but why do you feel the need to try and tear it down? Is that tolerance or is it ok because you are doing what you feel religious people do to non-religious people?

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by capsicum

Isaiah chapter 45 verse 7 "King James version."
"I form the light,and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I am assured enough thru scripture to trust that the Lord will reveal all in his time.

I think noone who believes in a higher power will disagree with you that all things good and evil originate with said power.

It is ignorant fucktards like this pastor who claim to know the power's intent behind each specific instance that infuriate me. Personally, I think those who claim to know such things are on a quicker path to hell than the ones committing the very sins which bother him so much.

[Raiders Army]

So if you credit God with everything that's right in your life, do you not curse him when things go bad?

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Ok, if religion teaches people to be intolerant then what taught you to be intolerant of religious teachings and religious people since you are not religious?

I dunno, maybe this:

That sign at Woodland Hills Baptist Church reads ,"The big easy is the modern day Sodom and Gomorrah."

Kelly along with her sister Robin Lafont, an evacuee from New Orleans, showed up this morning at the church to talk to the man who put it up, Pastor Wiley Bennett.

During a heated discussion, Robin asked, "What's the point of the sign out there?" Pastor Bennett replied, "The point of the sign is New Orleans, Las Vegas, San Francisco, and New York City are some of the most wicked cities in America."

[Coffee Warlord]

Hooooo boy. As much as I'm enjoying the scant few people who were providing me with a quality discussion....I'm backing the fuck out of this one before I say some shit to people I'd rather not.

[capsicum]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

So if you credit God with everything that's right in your life, do you not curse him when things go bad?

I admit that my flesh first cries out "why me" and after prayer and the prayers of many others I am able to give thanks for my "trials in life" because they grow my faith In GOD.

People rarely question the good things in life or even the good times.
I find I learn best the hard way, and I dont think im alone in this.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by capsicum

I admit that my flesh first cries out "why me" and after prayer and the prayers of many others I am able to give thanks for my "trials in life" because they grow my faith In GOD.

People rarely question the good things in life or even the good times.
I find I learn best the hard way, and I dont think im alone in this.

I prefer to learn vicariously.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

But I find it hard to accept the religious view that the Holocaust was in any way preventable or allowed by a god. That's just not something I can ever assimilate into a rational world view.

Any supreme being that allowed such an act is surely not worthy of respect, worship or even tolerance. And on the smaller scale, any supreme being that causes even the tiniest amount of harm to my son or my wife is not worthy of respect, worship or tolerance. There is no bigger picture here.

Jim this is the difference between someone who believes in religion and someone who doesn't. You find it hard to accept that God could allow the Holocaust to happen - I believe God allowed his Son to go to His death when He could have stopped it. But if you don't believe that then yes, its going to be very difficult to understand how God could let all these things happen.

Then again, what about all the great things that do happen in the world? Aren't any of them above scientific reasoning? Why was your son lucky enough to survive when there are others like him that don't? Have you ever thought that maybe God touched your son and spared his life despite the difficulties he went through initially? Why could the doctors save him but not others? Maybe you have an explanation that satisfies those questions to you. For me, when my son was born the cord was around his neck. I know I spent the next few minutes praying while a team of nurses huddled around him. I believe that God helped us - we have a beautiful, healthy 11 month old baby boy now. You might find that odd but I wouldn't know what else to do if my wife and I were in the much worse situation that you and your wife were in.

I just thank God things worked out for us and for you and your wife. Is there noone or nothing that you think about in situations like that or do you just believe that the people on earth have control over everything and that when a child dosen't survive that the doctors screwed up or the child was just unlucky? For me, that doesn't do it - I believe there is a higher power at work but to each his own and that's ok with me.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

So if you credit God with everything that's right in your life, do you not curse him when things go bad?

Sometimes, yes, I do. I'm human. I'm wrong for doing it and I confess that to a priest and ask forgiveness. Those bad things happen for a reason - a reason 99% of the time I never find out but I try my best to accept them.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

I'm also sorry you feel that religious people use their religion as a crutch. Personally, I draw strength from my faith. Where do you draw strength from or do you never have tragedy in your life? Maybe you never have had a bad day I doubt it though. Surely at some point in your life you experienced something bad - where did you turn at that point? Family? Friends? A group of individuals who share the same beliefs you do? Are those things crutches that aren't needed as well?

I'm not intolerant of religious people or disrespectful of them, for some reason you cut that out of your quote from me, where I specifically said it was not the person but the belief, and that I have friends and family that are devout Catholics and Christians.

Where do I draw strength from? Friends, family, myself, like you said. Your beliefs are make believe, it is pretend, a figment of someone's imagination, you are lying to yourself to keep yourself happy. I can't imagine being in a situation where lying to myself brings me comfort.

but I'm not posting that you are a whackjob and telling you that you better get to church or you're going to hell.

Once again, I judge people on their behaviour and on their own merits. I hang around with people who share your beliefs, we don't discuss religion and we are fine, because ultimatly they are good people. The people who have preached to me and told me I'm going to Hell? I'm not very tolerant of them.

I very rarely get involved in these discussions out in the real world, and 100% of the time it's forced on me, even as I try to shrug them off. Hell it's been awhile anywhere, since obviously people like me and you will never budge.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I'm not intolerant of religious people or disrespectful of them, for some reason you cut that out of your quote from me,

Ok, well if you calling them nutjobs is being tolerant and respectful then you're correct. If the church sign said atheists are nutjobs would you consider that respectful?

Originally Posted by jeff061

Where do I draw strength from? Friends, family, myself, like you said. Your beliefs are make believe, it is pretend, a figment of someone's imagination, you are lying to yourself to keep yourself happy. I can't imagine being in a situation where lying to myself brings me comfort.

So because you don't believe in them then they don't exist, right? What makes you right and all religious people wrong? What if its the other way around? Telling me that my beliefs are figments of someone's imagination sounds like a very tolerable thing.

Originally Posted by jeff061

Once again, I judge people on their behaviour and on their own merits. I hang around with people who share your beliefs, we don't discuss religion and we are fine, because ultimatly they are good people. The people who have preached to me and told me I'm going to Hell? I'm not very tolerant of them.

So its ok and possible for you to judge a religious person based on their behaviour even though they practice an act you think is foolish, wrong or non-existant? So why if a religious person does that is it intolerance and hate? You're right, neither of us will budge - I just find it odd that you claim to be tolerant of religious people yet then tell them that their beliefs are make-believe yet if like you say its the other way around and someone preaches to you and tells you that you are wrong that you give yourself the green light to return the intolerance you feel that person has to you.

[capsicum]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Your beliefs are make believe, it is pretend, a figment of someone's imagination, you are lying to yourself to keep yourself happy. I can't imagine being in a situation where lying to myself brings me comfort..

Your opinion only. I for one happen to Agree with Gary whole heartedly.

Originally Posted by jeff061

I'm not intolerant of religious people or disrespectful of them...

.[/quote]

Your quote seems to lead people to form another opinion. At least it does me.

[capsicum]

Amen.
My hats off to Gary yet again.
He debates it so much better then I.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

42.

Nuh-uh. He asked for what questions. That's the answer. I, uh, demand questions!

SI

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Nuh-uh. He asked for what questions. That's the answer. I, uh, demand questions!

SI

What's 7 times 6?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

What's 7 times 6?

That wasn't the question and you know it.

SI

[RendeR]

Wow, what a good (albeit loooong) read.

A few points from my own perspective.

The BELIEF vs SCIENCE discussion really entertains me. If a theologin wants to convince me that he's correct then perhaps he should come up with some facts? BELIEF as someone else posted, is a personal trust in something, in a majority of religions, this belief is based on the trust that a superior being is in control of everything, however, there is no proof that such a being exists, which brings me to the conclusion that there are millions of people in the world constantly conversing with their "invisible friend". To place trust and faith in something imaginary (IE something that is not physically real) simply boggles my mind.

The RELIGION vs TECHNOLOGY discussion is settled much more simply: Technology allows us to kill more people more efficiently with less consequence to ourselves. RELIGION and most religion's intolerance and inability to accept anyone elses human RIGHT to believe as they see fit uses the tools of TECHNOLOGY to cause more death and destruction than ANY other perpatraitor(sp?). The technology itself does nothing, the people BEHIND the technology cause the suffering. On the reverse side of that, Technology allows many people to live life at a much higher level than they otherwise would (see 99% of the physically disabled) Religion does not improve ones standard of living, it is an aside to that assisting emotional comfort or damaging it, depending on what you believe and how you live your life.

I personally believe it is ignorant to not search for the true answers to any question, and as someone else also mentioned, MANY organized religions actively dissuade their followers from searching for these anwers, swathing their questions in rhetoric such as "GOD has a plan for all of us". I try not to be intolerant of people who believe, I will not however be tolerant of those who refuse to acknowledge my right to tell them to stop pandering their beliefs to me.

I think one of the largest indescresions of Christianity, and perhaps other religions as well, is the unbending belief that they have a right to push their views on others. "bible thumping" as many call it does more to damage the reputation of Christainity as a whole than any other single factor. IMHO.

Nuff from me. I'm out.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by capsicum

Your opinion only.

Do not EVER presume to speak for me again. You generalize as badly as those you argue against. It is certainly NOT his opinion only.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I'm not intolerant of religious people or disrespectful of them...

Originally Posted by jeff061

Your beliefs are make believe, it is pretend, a figment of someone's imagination, you are lying to yourself to keep yourself happy. I can't imagine being in a situation where lying to myself brings me comfort.

Wow. I should have stopped reading at the post where jeff almost sounded respectful of beliefs other than his own.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

Wow. I should have stopped reading at the post where jeff almost sounded respectful of beliefs other than his own.

Now wait a second, he has a BELIEF that people who believe in GOD make him up for themselves. Why is HE in the wrong for believing this way? You have proof that GOD is real? please offer it up and invalidate his opinion properly.

Otherwise try TOLERATING something instead of judging.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Do not EVER presume to speak for me again. You generalize as badly as those you argue against. It is certainly NOT his opinion only.

Relax, will you? She's saying it was merely his opinion... not that he's the ONLY one to have it.

[capsicum]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Do not EVER presume to speak for me again. You generalize as badly as those you argue against. It is certainly NOT his opinion only.

Ufff Duh !

Are you choosing to deliberately misunderstand my meaning or was it merely accidental? And if so...please explain why?


My statement clarified that his was merely an opinion, one I disagreed with heartily..It was not EVER meant to imply that he was the only one who felt the same....Afterall one could never READ this thread and come to that conclusion now could they??


sheesh.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Now wait a second, he has a BELIEF that people who believe in GOD make him up for themselves. Why is HE in the wrong for believing this way? You have proof that GOD is real? please offer it up and invalidate his opinion properly.

Otherwise try TOLERATING something instead of judging.

I'm judging? Have you read this thread? That's the entire point I'm trying to make. He can believe whatever he wants; it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I just don't think people should be going around telling other people their beliefs are foolish. I try never to do that. And I have not once in this thread given my beliefs as far as religion except to say that I thought the guy whom the article was written about is severly misguided.

Believe it or not, I agree with your comments about what you call "bible thumping." I don't presume to tell someone else what they should believe, and I don't like it when people mock other's beliefs.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by capsicum

Ufff Duh !

Are you choosing to deliberately misunderstand my meaning or was it merely accidental? And if so...please explain why?


My statement clarified that his was merely an opinion, one I disagreed with heartily..It was not EVER meant to imply that he was the only one who felt the same....Afterall one could never READ this thread and come to that conclusion now could they??


sheesh.

As I've tried to tell you before, this is a message board, no one can read your expressions or take in your tone of voice.

"Your opinion only."

read it.

You are speaking out of turn with that sentence.

"Your opinion, perhaps. but I agree with Gary...."

THAT says what you meant.

and this is a PRIME example of why you create problems with your posts. Please PLEASE think through what you MEAN and write it so there can be no mistaking it.

Thank you, please drive through.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

I'm judging? Have you read this thread? That's the entire point I'm trying to make. He can believe whatever he wants; it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I just don't think people should be going around telling other people their beliefs are foolish. I try never to do that. And I have not once in this thread given my beliefs as far as religion except to say that I thought the guy whom the article was written about is severly misguided.

Believe it or not, I agree with your comments about what you call "bible thumping." I don't presume to tell someone else what they should believe, and I don't like it when people mock other's beliefs.

This is my point, you are assuming he is trying to affect someone else with his sentence, he is not. His sentence simply states that HE would never do such a thing, he is not disparadging the person for doing so.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Relax, will you? She's saying it was merely his opinion... not that he's the ONLY one to have it.

Perhaps she should have some english lessons then, because her sentence said exactly that.