Grey Dog announces Bowl Bound College Football

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

again, you want to project the way you do thing solo onto many people. you aren't making any concessions. who are you to dictate what is and what isn't an acceptable amount of time to devote to an online league? what if someone wants to do something silly and outlandish like, i don't know, be in more than one league?

i really don't think you're grapsing the concept man. you want to make someone go from casually being able to gameplan and look at stats in 5-10 minutes, to now obligating them to move things along at a brisk pace to make room for recruitment duties. with the thousands of high schoolers available, while i don't think it'd take 30 minutes to recruit i certainly don't think this is a 5 minute and you're done type of thing.

and judging by your success (or lack thereof) in IHOF perhaps the 5 minutes you devote to your team each game week isn't enough.

This seems like a pretty nit-picky argument. I say that assuming that over the long haul with either plan you are going to spend the same amount of time recruiting. (If you have the recruiting compartmentalized you'll have to spend a lot of recruiting resources over a few game weeks, and with SkyDog's plan you spend the resources in small chunks over the course of the year. In the end you'd probably spend about the same amount of time to sign your 20 or 25 guys.) To me it makes no sense to refute SkyDog's plan on the basis of the time that will be spent.

[stevew]

Can we export the players from Bowl bound into OOTP7 from SI?

[Comey]

Originally Posted by stevew

Can we export the players from Bowl bound into OOTP7 from SI?

Dude, c'mon. Let's get real.




















Arlie, can we import from BB into Madden '98 for the Nintendo 64?

[KWhit]

I like the idea of having the recruiting separate from the games. I don't care if it's 100% realistic or not.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by VPI97

I'll translate.

Oh, okay. Got it now.

Man, I'm so sad he's no longer in our league.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by stevew

Can we export the players from Bowl bound into OOTP7 from SI?

Let's call this the Bo Jackson feature...

[jbmagic]

Arlie

is there a way you can make Skydog plan for solo play only?

and for online league, do it the way you plan.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

Arlie

is there a way you can make Skydog plan for solo play only?

and for online league, do it the way you plan.

Huh?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by stevew

Huh?

Now THAT idea sounds like a programming nightmare to me.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

Arlie

is there a way you can make Skydog plan for solo play only?

and for online league, do it the way you plan.

True not Everyone is look to play online league.

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Now THAT idea sounds like a programming nightmare to me.

My thoughts exactly.

[GoldenEagle]

The gaming will split into games that concentrate on single player and games that concentrate on multiplayer. This is only the beginning.

[stevew]

what about those wish to play online league with Barry Bond in it would they have to use LF Giant instead or would you do both version.

[jbmagic]

i think this game will be use mainly for solo play than online league.

if that the case, they should Follow Skydog's plan on recruiting.


i think most people will use this game for solo play over online league.

so if that the case, they should follow Skydog's plan.


Look at there other Game Total Pro Basketball 2005, most people play it as solo play over online league. there only a few online league since game came out. the game is great. but for some reason the popularity to play it online is not there.

So you have to address what the majority people that buy this college football game game is going to play solo or online.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Arles

I've talked with Ben about this, but I will let everyone in on the reasons for splitting our recruiting from the in-season. Through talks with different people and my own experiences, asking a commish or solo gamer to manage an inseason process with recruiting is just too much to handle for most people. If we set it up that way, gamers would have to set depth charts, update their play books and gameplans on their matchup (plus more advance scouting), monitor the change in HS stats and JC recruits very closely, setup recruiting allocations, watch academics, monitor stats and deal with scholarships EACH week. That's just too much and would make the game more "work" than "fun" - especially for a poor commish (imagine having 40-50 teams, maybe even more).

In reality, much of the recruiting is done in the summer before the season as coaches are simply too busy to get involved during the season. And, of course, LOI's are signed in the Feb after the season.

It seems to me that in a lot of college games (including TDCB), you do everything during the season and then take a deep breath and breeze through the offseason before undertaking massive micromanagement the next season. So, I felt that having the active recruiting actions start after the season would break up the work for commissioners, as well as make the game flow a little better. In this setup, you handle non-conf scheduling, redshirts, off/def strategy and budgets in the "Camp" stage. Then, you turn your focus to winning games, gameplans, playbooks, monitoring your players and keeping a bird's eye view on recruits in the "Season" stage. Finally, in the Offseason, you adjust your staff, look for college transfers, take recruiting actions and setup a summer training program before starting the cycle over again.

Now, this is just my opinion, but I think this process makes each stage something to look forward to, yet nothing to really "dread". And, for both solo and multiplayer, it is very important to having people enjoy playing the game. I think the game will have a very real feel to it as you will get information on recruit breakdowns from Camp to the season and into the offseason. This process just helps break up the work to make the game more manageable to play.

Arlie - I actually think you have this completely backwards regards to multiplayer.

While I understand the idea that having too much involved in one step of the process can make it seem like micromanagement, and I agree from the standpoint of single player. I think in order to make any game better for MP, the key is to reduce the number of exports per season, where your current design minimizes the amount needing to be done per export in exchange for adding weeks (and thus exports) to the season.

The biggest drawback to MP leagues is the exceedingly slow pace. In most cases, this pace is necesary because not everyone can find time on the same days or the same time of day to play the game, thus two or three days are required between exports, to give everyone a chance to get to the game. If the number of tasks required once they got there were increased (by having recruiting in-season) it would not seem to me to slow too many leagues down.

The flaw in your thinking is that MP league players will have too much to do for a given export. In fact, the opposite is pretty much true. There is not nearly enough to do to for each export in FOF2k4, the big holdup is waiting for every other team in the league to do it.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Arlie - I actually think you have this completely backwards regards to multiplayer.

While I understand the idea that having too much involved in one step of the process can make it seem like micromanagement, and I agree from the standpoint of single player. I think in order to make any game better for MP, the key is to reduce the number of exports per season, where your current design minimizes the amount needing to be done per export in exchange for adding weeks (and thus exports) to the season.

The biggest drawback to MP leagues is the exceedingly slow pace. In most cases, this pace is necesary because not everyone can find time on the same days or the same time of day to play the game, thus two or three days are required between exports, to give everyone a chance to get to the game. If the number of tasks required once they got there were increased (by having recruiting in-season) it would not seem to me to slow too many leagues down.

The flaw in your thinking is that MP league players will have too much to do for a given export. In fact, the opposite is pretty much true. There is not nearly enough to do to for each export in FOF2k4, the big holdup is waiting for every other team in the league to do it.

What sam said.

[Cap Ologist]

I'm looking forward to this. I don't know if this would be feasible or not, but I'll throw it out anyway. It's definitely not totally realistic, but it might work. During the regular season, each team would have 5 exports per month. 4 of those would be games and 1 would be recruiting. I love how FBCB does recruiting. It happens once a month, not once a week. This way recruiting can still happen during the season for realism, but wouldn't add to much more of a burden. The program would have 2 export functions, one for game files and one for recruiting. That way, if someone knows they are going to be gone or might miss an export, they could work on the recruiting earlier in the month. This would also allow people to put as much time into recruiting as they want as far as personal time.

Ok, I have no idea if that would work or not, but I just thought I'd throw it out there.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by stevew

What sam said.

He did a good job of fleshing out what I was trying to ask here:

Ok, I'm still confused. According to your screenie, there are 47 stages in a BBCF season. My suggestion would require 30-35 stages, assuming sticking with your 21 weeks for Sept-Dec, then one, MAYBE two, stages per month for Jan-Aug.

I'm not trying to tease or give you a hard time anymore, I'm truly trying to understand how the way it is being done is even more streamlined, because it is *definitely* unrealistic.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Cap Ologist

I'm looking forward to this. I don't know if this would be feasible or not, but I'll throw it out anyway. It's definitely not totally realistic, but it might work. During the regular season, each team would have 5 exports per month. 4 of those would be games and 1 would be recruiting. I love how FBCB does recruiting. It happens once a month, not once a week. This way recruiting can still happen during the season for realism, but wouldn't add to much more of a burden. The program would have 2 export functions, one for game files and one for recruiting. That way, if someone knows they are going to be gone or might miss an export, they could work on the recruiting earlier in the month. This would also allow people to put as much time into recruiting as they want as far as personal time.

Ok, I have no idea if that would work or not, but I just thought I'd throw it out there.

I think this sounds good.

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

i think this game will be use mainly for solo play than online league.

if that the case, they should Follow Skydog's plan on recruiting.


i think most people will use this game for solo play over online league.

so if that the case, they should follow Skydog's plan.


Look at there other Game Total Pro Basketball 2005, most people play it as solo play over online league. there only a few online league since game came out. the game is great. but for some reason the popularity to play it online is not there.

So you have to address what the majority people that buy this college football game game is going to play solo or online.

Well, I'll probably play it solo, and if he follows Skydog plan, it will go from "immediate buy" to "big maybe buy." I doubt I'll buy TCY2 if it comes out and still has recruiting mostly done during the season.

Well, thinking about it, if it were completely Skydog's plan (heavy recruiting over the summer with just minor updates during the season for big programs, then heavy recruiting for the smaller programs in January-Feburary), then I'd probably go with that. Having the heaviest imphasis during the season? No.

[Bee]

Good luck with the game Arlie. Looking forward to trying the demo.

B

[ScottVib]

Interesting comments. I think I'd prefer it the way it's being done. When I'm playing the season I want to focus on the games. I want to pay attention to my lineups and strategies and watch/coach my game. If I have to split my attention/energy with recruiting I find that I'm not able to go through as much detail and look at all the data given that I might like, because I want to keep the season moving, and I'm anxious to get to the game.

Assuming recruiting is done right, IMO it becomes a fun "mini-game" within the main game. It provides something to look forward to during the offseason, rather then getting lost in the shuffle of the regular season (where at least for me focus should be on the actual games/season), and I'm able to devote more time to recruiting.

While the number of weeks I simulate may increase, personally I think the speed I go through each season in this fashion will increase. As now I don't have to shift gears, I can stay in "recruiting mode" for the period it's going on, or I can stay in "game mode" during the season. Rather then having to start then stop each frame of thinking, every week of the season. It means I don't have to keep as many notes and shifting from notepad to game window several times a week to remember what I was doing in recruiting, after I get wrapped up in the exciting finish of that weeks game. It means having more time to pour over my opponents stats to figure out how I'm going to stop the All-Conference WR, despite losing my top corner the week before, without saying to myself, I've really got to get cranking on my recruiting or I'll never get to play the game.

But that's just me, and it's still early. Ultimately once the game hits testing we'll see if it works or not.

[JasonC23]

Will we be able to go for 2 when the game is first released?


(Come on, someone had to say it.)

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by ScottVib

Interesting comments. I think I'd prefer it the way it's being done. When I'm playing the season I want to focus on the games. I want to pay attention to my lineups and strategies and watch/coach my game. If I have to split my attention/energy with recruiting I find that I'm not able to go through as much detail and look at all the data given that I might like, because I want to keep the season moving, and I'm anxious to get to the game.

Assuming recruiting is done right, IMO it becomes a fun "mini-game" within the main game. It provides something to look forward to during the offseason, rather then getting lost in the shuffle of the regular season (where at least for me focus should be on the actual games/season), and I'm able to devote more time to recruiting.

While the number of weeks I simulate may increase, personally I think the speed I go through each season in this fashion will increase. As now I don't have to shift gears, I can stay in "recruiting mode" for the period it's going on, or I can stay in "game mode" during the season. Rather then having to start then stop each frame of thinking, every week of the season. It means I don't have to keep as many notes and shifting from notepad to game window several times a week to remember what I was doing in recruiting, after I get wrapped up in the exciting finish of that weeks game. It means having more time to pour over my opponents stats to figure out how I'm going to stop the All-Conference WR, despite losing my top corner the week before, without saying to myself, I've really got to get cranking on my recruiting or I'll never get to play the game.

But that's just me, and it's still early. Ultimately once the game hits testing we'll see if it works or not.

Note - my comments apply only to multiplayer Scott. Generally someone playing on their own will accomplish a year's tasks in the same amount of time regardless of how they are distributed.

For single player - I agree with the sentiment that if recruiting is engaging, I don't really care if its in-season or out. However, between the various incarnations of FOF and TCY, I find myself not particularly enthralled by single player football sims, even excellent products such as FOF2k4 and TPF. It is only the addition of human opponents with personalities that these games become engaging enough to buy anymore.

I will add this though - if an MP season does indeed have 40+ exports per season, GDS will be wasting their time writing the MP module. With rare exceptions, leagues that were enthusiastically formed will quickly die through attrition, as coaches are forced to quit due to either (a) missing exports due to exports being required too frequently or (b) not enough going on in each export to make the experience fun.

[Balldog]

Originally Posted by JasonC23

Will we be able to go for 2 when the game is first released?


(Come on, someone had to say it.)

Haha, forgot about that!

Still looking forward to it

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Samdari

I will add this though - if an MP season does indeed have 40+ exports per season, GDS will be wasting their time writing the MP module.

I agree with your general premise, but this ain't so. There are more than that in an FOF2K4 multiplayer season.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by JasonC23

Will we be able to go for 2 when the game is first released?


(Come on, someone had to say it.)

Onside kicks would be a nice "feature" too.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Samdari

I will add this though - if an MP season does indeed have 40+ exports per season, GDS will be wasting their time writing the MP module. With rare exceptions, leagues that were enthusiastically formed will quickly die through attrition, as coaches are forced to quit due to either (a) missing exports due to exports being required too frequently or (b) not enough going on in each export to make the experience fun.

It depends on what kind of exports they are...are they all mandatory? ...are there some optional ones? I don't know if you can really condemn an export schedule without knowing exactly how many are critical ones.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Samdari

However, between the various incarnations of FOF and TCY, I find myself not particularly enthralled by single player football sims, even excellent products such as FOF2k4 and TPF. It is only the addition of human opponents with personalities that these games become engaging enough to buy anymore.

i agree and disagree with you at the same time. i only really play text sim games to play against other people. if i were to win against the AI it just wouldn't *feel right*, like i'd have to put an asterisk next to my accomplishments cuz they weren't against a higher level of competition (human brains).

i disagree with you in the sense that text sim football games, even in single player mode, are light years ahead of what you can do in say Madden or any other console "franchise" mode, save for Madden PC, where you can see your players in your own jerseys/logos.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I agree with your general premise, but this ain't so. There are more than that in an FOF2K4 multiplayer season.

Yep...every league has a different schedule, but for us, the 2007 IHOF Bowl will be the 74th export of the season.

[dawgfan]

Question for Arlie about BBCF - can you expand a little bit on how you envision MP leagues working for this game?

Are there any minimum/maximum number of players for MP leagues?

Will all MP leagues have all 117 (or whatever the number is now) of D-1 teams?

What happens to the teams not run by a human?

Will all human players have to be in the same conference, or can they be spread around?

Will players be required to use the existing D-1 schools, or can they create a new school?

Is the game limited to D-1 teams?

In MP, will there be an option to equalize the human-run teams at the start of the league?

I love that there will be a new entry in the college football market, and I'm intrigued by the idea of MP for it, but I'm also somewhat skeptical of how this will actually work. Seems to me that it's all but impossible to expect leagues to have 117 active, involved players, so the MP experience would seem to be either one where human players have a large number of AI-run teams to contend with, which has the downside of the human-run teams are likely to quickly all rise to the top of the polls, or the MP leagues will scale back the size of number of teams to match the number of human players which would greatly affect the realism factor.

I look forward to hearing more about this Arlie.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I agree with your general premise, but this ain't so. There are more than that in an FOF2K4 multiplayer season.

Yeah, I'm suprised anyone plays FOF2k4(myself included)multiplayer with the amount of stages to just complete a season.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by VPI97

It depends on what kind of exports they are...are they all mandatory? ...are there some optional ones? I don't know if you can really condemn an export schedule without knowing exactly how many are critical ones.

Sure I can. I love the IHOF, but I wish seasons would go by faster, but think that more frequent exports would restrict the pool of owners. The answer (IMO) is combining tasks to reduce the number of exports required per season.

IMO, the best MP experience requires involved owners. In part, that is dependent upon the personalities assembled, in part the game needs to involve them. Truly involved owners are not going to see many exports as optional.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I agree with your general premise, but this ain't so. There are more than that in an FOF2K4 multiplayer season.

exactly:

4 preseason exports
16 regular season exports
10 FA stage exports (most leagues lump several FA stages into one stage)
7 ammy draft exports

that's 37 exports right there. minimum. could be more depending on how many stages are simmed during FA.

so 40 is the norm in my book. and i don't know if 40+ would be so outlandish if one were having *fun* actually participating in the league. since college seasons are shorter than pro seasons you're not looking at that much more exports.

[sovereignstar]

What are ammy draft exports?

[Coder]

Originally Posted by stevew

Yeah, I'm suprised anyone plays FOF2k4(myself included)multiplayer with the amount of stages to just complete a season.

Having been the commissioner of a fantasy hockey league with 62 games per season, and only simulating one gameday per real day, I can tell you that people really do play that way and have fun. I ran my league for 7 years and out of 30 owners, 20 stayed with me the whole time. While they didn't have to send in lines every day, just about everyone sent in at least two "exports" per week.

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by Coder

Having been the commissioner of a fantasy hockey league with 62 games per season, and only simulating one gameday per real day, I can tell you that people really do play that way and have fun. I ran my league for 7 years and out of 30 owners, 20 stayed with me the whole time. While they didn't have to send in lines every day, just about everyone sent in at least two "exports" per week.

Agreed. The ImperialFL only sims one week's worth of games each Sunday and the majority of the guys love it. It really feels like a football Sunday as you've been itching to see how your team will do.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

exactly:

4 preseason exports
16 regular season exports
10 FA stage exports (most leagues lump several FA stages into one stage)
7 ammy draft exports

that's 37 exports right there. minimum. could be more depending on how many stages are simmed during FA.

so 40 is the norm in my book. and i don't know if 40+ would be so outlandish if one were having *fun* actually participating in the league. since college seasons are shorter than pro seasons you're not looking at that much more exports.

More like 5 preseason exports,
4 preseason "midweek" exports
Training camp

17 regular season games
17 "midweek exports"
4 playoff exports
4 playoff "midweek exports"
3 coach stage exports
franchise/ticket prices
10 FA exports(minimum)
1 draft preference export
4 secondary fa exports(minimum)

Holy god, thats like 71 exports a season at the minimum.

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by stevew

More like 5 preseason exports,
4 preseason "midweek" exports
Training camp

17 regular season games
17 "midweek exports"
4 playoff exports
4 playoff "midweek exports"
3 coach stage exports
franchise/ticket prices
10 FA exports(minimum)
1 draft preference export
4 secondary fa exports(minimum)

Holy god, thats like 71 exports a season at the minimum.

I don't know you well enough to know if you're being sarcastic or not. But midweek files are definitely not mandatory. Hell, no one does them in the LXF.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

I don't know you well enough to know if you're being sarcastic or not. But midweek files are definitely not mandatory. Hell, no one does them in the LXF.

Not being sarcastic, thats a TON of exporting. Midweek isnt mandatory, but if you want to ever sign someone you gotta do it from time to time.

[albionmoonlight]

Along those lines, if exports can be made in such a way that 1.) they can be done quick and dirty if need be and/or 2.) missing a stage does not hurt you too much, that will help online play.

If you make it that the AI will do something benign and sensible if you miss an export (say, keep recuiting the same players that you have been going after and/or keep your gameplan and roster the same for the next game), then the number and complexity of exports won't matter as much. If, however, you make it that the AI will play all of your redshirt players, change your option attack into a run n shoot, and not do any recuiting on the week that you miss an export, then you will have people getting mad at the AI.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by stevew

More like 5 preseason exports,
4 preseason "midweek" exports
Training camp

17 regular season games
17 "midweek exports"
4 playoff exports
4 playoff "midweek exports"
3 coach stage exports
franchise/ticket prices
10 FA exports(minimum)
1 draft preference export
4 secondary fa exports(minimum)

Holy god, thats like 71 exports a season at the minimum.

woof...i was waaay off. you're correct.

[sovereignstar]

How the hell else do you guys think that you can make a roster move, besides an export? Even if it's the smallest roster change it doesn't matter. You shouldn't be counting those as stages.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

How the hell else do you guys think that you can make a roster move, besides an export? Even if it's the smallest roster change it doesn't matter. You shouldn't be counting those as stages.

Remeber, this is college. The only roster moves you can make are lineup changes, which are only necesary in gameday exports. The only additions are through recruiting, which, whether done in season, or in an off-season, are always for next year.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Remeber, this is college. The only roster moves you can make are lineup changes, which are only necesary in gameday exports. The only additions are through recruiting, which, whether done in season, or in an off-season, are always for next year.

Yup. Not only that, but there will probably be games where gameplanning and roster moves don't make a difference at all. This shouldn't be the "any-given-Sunday" feel of pro multiplayer football, where you should have at least a fighting chance to win every week. If I'm playing UGA, I'm not going to be remotely engaged by spending time gameplanning for Louisiana-Monroe, Vandy, Kentucky, etc...

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Yup. Not only that, but there will probably be games where gameplanning and roster moves don't make a difference at all. This shouldn't be the "any-given-Sunday" feel of pro multiplayer football, where you should have at least a fighting chance to win every week. If I'm playing UGA, I'm not going to be remotely engaged by spending time gameplanning for Louisiana-Monroe, Vandy, Kentucky, etc...

And at the same time if you're playing as Central Florida you're going to be more interested n recruiting than gameplanning for Florida State.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Yup. Not only that, but there will probably be games where gameplanning and roster moves don't make a difference at all. This shouldn't be the "any-given-Sunday" feel of pro multiplayer football, where you should have at least a fighting chance to win every week. If I'm playing UGA, I'm not going to be remotely engaged by spending time gameplanning for Louisiana-Monroe, Vandy, Kentucky, etc...

Don't scheduly ULM, you patsy lovin wuss.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Don't scheduly ULM, you patsy lovin wuss.

I'm assuming that the game will have the real 2005 schedules. Plus, if I'm playing a week-to-week schedule, I want mainly patsies as the out-of-conference games anyway.

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Remeber, this is college. The only roster moves you can make are lineup changes, which are only necesary in gameday exports. The only additions are through recruiting, which, whether done in season, or in an off-season, are always for next year.

Why are you quoting me on that? I'm merely shooting down the ridiculous notion that 70 exports are needed in an FOF MP season.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

Why are you quoting me on that? I'm merely shooting down the ridiculous notion that 70 exports are needed in an FOF MP season.

Ah - I thought you were referring to the necesity of many export stages in the upcoming college sim. My mistake.