Euro 2004 Discussion

[SirFozzie]

Halftime:

Russia 2-1 Greece
Spain 0-0 Portugal

Spain currently would win the group, and Greece would go through after beating Portugal H2H.

[SirFozzie]

And Portugal break the deadlock.

Portugal now will win the group, and Spain are set to go out IF the results stay the way it goes. Spain either needs a goal from Russia, or the equalizer in this game.

[SirFozzie]

Portugal wins, 1-0, and wins the group!

And it's Russia 2-1 over greece, and Greece SOMEHOW survive.

[SirFozzie]

My prediction for the group B games, and the matchups for the semifinals:

England 1-1 Croatia

England needs a draw, and they know it. Croatia is going to be on the attack, but I don't think they can break the Three Lions down. A win gives England a slight chance at the group, but likely will not be enough.

France 3-1 Swiss

The French know that a win here gets them through, AND an easier quarter final game (against Greece), so they will put the Swiss to the sword.

Quarter Finals:

Greece-France (3-0 France)
England-Portugal (2-1 Portugal)

[Katon]

Just Switzerland and Greece between France and the semifinals. At this point, you'd have to be surprised if they didn't make it.

Also, how disappointing were Spain? No team with that much attacking talent should manage just two goals in three games.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

MIJ scenario: Portugal 2-1 Spain, Greece 2-2 Russia
Russia have a reputation to defend as last round spoilers. I can see Greece almost choke with the next round in their hands. A wild game will keep things interesting all 90 minutes in both games.
But, Portugal-Spain is the obvious most exciting game of the group. Spain are the big neighbours, yet Portugal are the team needing to win. Somehow I can see Portugal escape in this game and knock-out Spain.

Well, not 100% correct, but I wasn't far off either.

[PilotMan]

I am still in shock that Spain didn't qualify. There are going to be some really pissed off fans there now. Especially with Real's faliure in the Champions League.

[Critch]

Russia managed 15 yellow cards and 2 red cards in three games. That's got to be some sort of record.

Not really surprised about Spain crashing out, it's one of the unwritten rules of World Cup and European Championship soccer. No matter how many good players Spain have, they'll disappoint. The other rule is that no matter how bad Germany play, they'll still be around longer than they should be. That's still got a good chance of occuring.

Highlight of the Championships for me so far is the last three minutes of the England v France game. I had the good fortune of being able to download the whole match with English ITV commentary, that made it all even funnier

One last thing about the games so far, I know that they've been dicking about with the offside laws, but doesn't Ruud Van Nistelrooy have to come onside at some point during the game? He wasn't close to onside at any point of the buildup to the Netherland's second goal v the Czech Republic, and he was a mile offside at the first goal too.

[Coder]

Originally Posted by Critch

One last thing about the games so far, I know that they've been dicking about with the offside laws, but doesn't Ruud Van Nistelrooy have to come onside at some point during the game? He wasn't close to onside at any point of the buildup to the Netherland's second goal v the Czech Republic, and he was a mile offside at the first goal too.

There was a lot of talk about this on Swedish television after the Holland-game, and apparently the rule is that "it's a new event". Here goes, in the first event, Nistelroy is not involved in the play. Sure, he's offside, but since he's not getting the pass, he's not participating in the buildup. Then, there's this "new event" I talked about, and Nistelroy gets the ball (rebound? can't remember), and kicks it in. Nistelroy likes to run in an offside position to disturb the defenders. From what I understand, most coaches aren't thrilled about the rule implimentation, but it was explained to all of them before the tournament started (to avoid complaints).

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Critch

Russia managed 15 yellow cards and 2 red cards in three games. That's got to be some sort of record.

Not really surprised about Spain crashing out, it's one of the unwritten rules of World Cup and European Championship soccer. No matter how many good players Spain have, they'll disappoint. The other rule is that no matter how bad Germany play, they'll still be around longer than they should be. That's still got a good chance of occuring.

Spain blew so many chances including Raul's wide open header at an open goal. They basically hit every part of the goal at least once, except for the back of the net. Portugal was extremely lucky to get that goal and to win.

I didn't catch Portugal's match against Russia, but in the two games I've seen him, I think Figo is really negatively impacting Portugal. So much so that it changes their whole emotional outlook and gameplay. Ballhogging, whining, and generally dogging it. What cinched it for me was when he lost the ball against Spain near their 18 yardline. He strolls back up the pitch while Ronaldo and Deco bust their asses to try and get the ball back. If they're to win in the quarters I think he needs to be on the bench. Won't happen of course.

[mordhiem]

I don't think any team in Group A was impressive at all in the group stage, especially the dire Spanish (Did Raul lose his lucky boots last summer or something?). I would back England and France to comfortably beat both Potugal and Greece, infact I would think Croatia would have a decent chance at beating Portugal as well.

[Critch]

Originally Posted by mordhiem

I would back England and France to comfortably beat both Potugal and Greece.

I haven't been impressed with England so far, against France they scored against the run of play then tried to defend for the rest of the match. Against Switzerland they were distinctly second best til scoring against the run of play and they only took control when Switzerland went down to ten men.

So I don't think they can comfortably beat anybody who'll be in the next round, and they'll have to raise their game to get past Croatia.

[Mac Howard]

I think you undersestimate the effectiveness of the English game. It's ugly, yes, but it gets results.

The problem is that with the loss of Nicky Butt to a training injury they have no one who can remotely be described as a defensive midfield. Beckham, Scholes, Lampard, Gerrard - all attacking midfield players and only Gerrard with the semblance of a tackle in him.

To compensate, Eriksson has all four tackling back - hence the very defensive posture of the team. But with six players who regularly score there's no lack of scoring potential even if they allow the opposition 60% of the ball. Despite this defensive posture only Sweden have scored more goals in the first two round and only they because of the 5 against Bulgaria.

I don't like what I'm hearing from the Croation camp. They're already a cynical team and have 9 yellow cards in two matches so far and the manager and captain are openly talking about provoking the 18 year-old Wayne Rooney into a red card for retaliation. I've seen it happen before but never heard of a team openly bragging that this will be part of their tactics for the coming match.

Thank goodness Collina is in charge - the best ref in World football.

Anyway, I'm off to bed. Kickoff is at 2.45 in the morning here and I need to be wide awake for that. If England win I'll probably be here tomorrow to gloat, if they lose it'll be a couple of days before I come back with my tail between my legs

Here are comments from the manager:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Baric revealed that he has targeted 18-year-old Rooney for special attention, nominating Josip Simunic for the task.

"I believe we have a way to stop him," said Baric: "Rooney collects yellow cards, and let's hope a red one."
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And the 'keeper:

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"If we can provoke him in the right way, he'll definitely lash out," promised the goalkeeper Joey Didulica. "He's a fanatic and, trust me, when you play off emotion like that a red card is inevitable."

This could be dismissed as kidology were it not for the disclosure that Otto Baric, Croatia's curmudgeonly national coach who was 71 on Saturday, summoned his players to a special meeting last night during which the flaws in Rooney's temperament were dissected at even greater length than his strengths in front of goal. Ranked 25th in the world by Fifa, Croatia's team may be weaker than England's but not if Rooney is sent off. And Didulica was in no mood to offer apologies - or even the faintest hint of one - as he detailed the team's crude instructions.

"The manager has told us to prey on Rooney's weaknesses," said the Austria Vienna goalkeeper, whose upbringing in Australia has clearly taught him a thing or two about the art of sledging. "Our defenders are under orders to slide in and try to take him a few times. Then, just you see, we will get the reaction we want. No problems.

"As far as we are concerned, all is fair in love, war and football. You have to use every little tactic you can. It's not a dirty tactic - it's just a tactic that is there. He's young and he's shown he can't deal with it. So let's see what happens."

"I think Rooney has been playing above himself but hopefully for this game he'll come back down to earth," continued Didulica. "He's definitely a good player and he's aggressive, but that is maybe to our advantage. He's young and impulsive, and hopefully for us something could pop in his head, like with his studs up to the Swiss goalkeeper.

It may, of course, just be mind games but Baric, who intends to deploy the Juventus centre-half Igor Tudor as a defensive midfielder, has moulded a team with a cynical edge. Uefa has already fined them for having five players booked in their match against Switzerland and they picked up another four yellow cards against France. As well as having the tallest squad in the tournament, Croatia seem intent on being recognised as the dirtiest side in Portugal.

"Believe me, never fight a Croat," Giovanni Rosso, their right-sided midfielder, said. "All of our life we are fighting. That spirit is not just in football but every sport. We don't have any snow in Croatia but we even have the Olympic champion skier (Janica Kostelic]. It's in our genetics, in our make-up. God gave the Croatians our fighting spirit. England will be a very tough match but we will see who runs more, who fights more and we know that no one will show greater spirit than us."
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Not just a soccer match, eh?

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

-snap-
Ranked 25th in the world by Fifa, Croatia's team may be weaker than England's...
-snap-

I realize it's just a little piece from what you posted, but I figured you copy and pasted this. Anyway, people referring to the FIFA world rankings to base a matchup on lose all credibility.

[Mac Howard]

Couldn't agree with you more

[scooter]

Originally Posted by Coder

There was a lot of talk about this on Swedish television after the Holland-game, and apparently the rule is that "it's a new event". Here goes, in the first event, Nistelroy is not involved in the play. Sure, he's offside, but since he's not getting the pass, he's not participating in the buildup. Then, there's this "new event" I talked about, and Nistelroy gets the ball (rebound? can't remember), and kicks it in. Nistelroy likes to run in an offside position to disturb the defenders. From what I understand, most coaches aren't thrilled about the rule implimentation, but it was explained to all of them before the tournament started (to avoid complaints).

The BBC broadcast was talking a lot about this as well. They even rolled out a video producd by FIFA to explain the new interpretation of the rule. Van Nistelrooy was in a passive offside position when the ball is first played and therefore not offside. (The ball is passed out to the left to a player making a very nice run) That player then dribbles forward once or twice as van Nistelrooy turns and runs back toward goal. He is then behind the defenders but also behind the ball. The ball is played across (he is behind the ball and therefore not offside) and he scores. So strictly speaking he was onside the whole time, when actually he was offside

Peter Schmeichel was one of the pundits that day, and he was arguing that the rule is bad because it states that van Nistelrooy is not offside in the passive position because he is not interfering with play. But he is standing in the 6 yard box when play in 20 yards upfield. How can a goalkeeper just ignore him? If you can't ignore him, he is interfering with play. Being a former goalkeeper myself, I would have to agree.

[andy m]

Originally Posted by Critch

I haven't been impressed with England so far, against France they scored against the run of play then tried to defend for the rest of the match. Against Switzerland they were distinctly second best til scoring against the run of play and they only took control when Switzerland went down to ten men.

So I don't think they can comfortably beat anybody who'll be in the next round, and they'll have to raise their game to get past Croatia.

i think France were the better team, but they had virtually no decent chances until the final two set pieces. England matched them in the first half, and if Beckham's penalty had gone in then the game would have been pretty much over (i don't think England would have gone into such a defensive mode). when England defend they play very deep, allow opponents to come into dangerous positions but Sol Campbell snuffs pretty much everything out, Ledley King did likewise in the France game. it was very similar to England vs Argentina in World Cup 2002 in that respect - Argentina had the ball for virtually the final 30 minutes, but didn't get a decent shot in.

[scooter]

I think Spain did a number of things wrong in this tournament, but two things stand out to me. The first happened in their first game against Russia. Spain owned Russia. They dictated play throughout and had a number of great chances that they didn't convert. They also seemed to ease up a little after they scored. I remember thinking at the time here is a team that Spain should beat handly by 2 or 3 goals and they didn't. In a tournament like this, goal differential is important - they're going to need those goals later.

The second thing was their inability to watch the other teams in the tournament fail to hold onto leads by defending for more than about 15 minutes (or playing for a tie). This tournament has been full of games where one team scores and then they sit back and defend. In most of those games, the other team has come back and scored. To think that they could go out against Portugal and defend for a 0-0 tie for 90 minutes was a bad plan. I'm sure they planned on counterattacking with Portugal extended, but they didn't seem to be able to do that - there was too much distance between the midfield and the forwards. The wingers that looked so good in the first two games were invisible against Portugal.

As an aside, Raul had a terrible tournament. He looked jaded and uninterested throughout. He was a big disappointment.

[Mac Howard]

You shouldn't confuse domination of possession with dominating the match, Critch. Until the two mistakes by England (neither goal came from French play) France didn't create a single worthwhile chance in 90 minutes and Switzerland had just two shots on goal in the whole match - neither of which troubled James. By contrast, despite averaging only around 42% of possession, England scored 4 and Beckham should have made it five with his penalty. It's the rope-a-dope game!

If it came down to soccer skills I would worry little about the Croatia game but I fear it will be something of a physical battle - something England are not well set up to play. That the Croatian manager should see the dismisal of Rooney as a reasonable tactic says much about the approach Croatia may take.

I shall also be shouting for the Swiss because Greece would be a much easier road to the semis than an improving Portugal with quality players and the backing of the home crowd.

[scooter]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

I shall also be shouting for the Swiss because Greece would be a much easier road to the semis than an improving Portugal with quality players and the backing of the home crowd.

Unfortunately Soccernet is reporting that Switzerland's Frei is not going to play because of the spitting incident from the last game against England. UEFA is still investigating the incident and Switzerland's FA is voluntarily keeping Frei out of the game. I'm not sure who else they have on the bench, but Frei is their most lethal threat.

[Coder]

Italian Media is taking their conspiracy theories too far... I realize group c is just one of many, but I have to share some of the stuff that's going on here. As you know, a 2-2 result between Denmark and Sweden tomorrow will mean that Italy is out of the tournament. The fact that Italy doesn't have the opportunity to advance out of the group by their own merits anymore seems to totally throw the media in Italy off their senses.

As I've mentioned before in this thread, Italy is now convinced that Sweden and Denmark had all this planned from the beginning. We supposedely made sure there was a camera on Totti the whole first game and Denmark was going to provoke him until he did something bannable (?). Now we're obviously plotting to play 2-2 as well, something which Italian journalists can't stop suggesting to coaches during the press-conference, and something which even the PLAYERS think is going to happen. Del Piero said that "a 2-2 result would be sickening!".

As if things weren't completely out of hand already, Italian journalists were stopped when they tried to fax a message from the Swedish player-hotel to the Danish one today. One can only hypothesize what they wanted to send, but I'm thinking that it would be an "agreement" that they would then publish as evidence that there is a plot.

What is WRONG with them.. is it so hard to accept that they haven't played good enough to go on to the next stage on their own merits? Maybe they're so worried about Sweden and Denmark playing a made up draw just because if Italy had been in the same situation they would have done it themselves?

[Desnudo]

Looks like the Dutch coach has a free ride home:

Dutch fans buy plane ticket for soccer coach

Sun Jun 20, 6:07 PM ET


AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - Dutch fans at Euro 2004 have clubbed together to buy a plane ticket out of Portugal for coach Dick Advocaat following the 3-2 defeat by the Czech Republic.


Reuters Photo



Advocaat was blamed for making a substitution in the second half which allowed the Czechs to come back from 2-1 down.


"We collected the money in just three minutes," said Johan de Laat who organised the initiative on a camp site in Portugal, news agency ANP reported.


Advocaat's ticket was booked for Tuesday's Virgin Express flight from Faro to Brussels, a flight that cost 163 euros (106 pounds), according to the airline's website.


The Dutch play their last Group D game on Wednesday, needing to win to have any chance of reaching the quarter-finals.


"We will give him the ticket through room service at his hotel. All he needs is his passport," De Laat said.


"He doesn't have to come back to the Netherlands."

[airulf]

Too funny.


These Italians are just too paranoid.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

The Dutch play their last Group D game on Wednesday, needing to win to have any chance of reaching the quarter-finals.

And then Reuters lost all credibility.
The Dutch can still reach the quarterfinals with a draw if Germany loses.


Anyway, for one things, this tournament shows that pulling back to defend doesn't pay off for the big countries:
England 1-0 up, lost 1-2
Italy 1-0 up, drew 1-1, played counter footballed to 0-0 draw
Germany 1-0 up, drew 1-1
Netherlands 2-1 up, lost 2-3
Spain all three games?

[andy m]

ROONEY

[3ric]

And Rooney strikes again... woot!

[andy m]

france lead 2-1, arse.

[Darkiller]

Another bad game for France....
We're just not playing up to what we're supposed to do.

We're there though.
1st place finish, two wins, 7 points out of 9 possible.
Quarter-Finals versus Greece.

I'll take it.

[Mac Howard]

If you've seen the England/Croatia match then you can see what I mean that the England team is unbalanced with just 4 defenders and 6 attacking players (not helped by the FA sucking up to Blatter and FIFA in banning Ferdinand for a period that covered Euro 2004 as well as the remainder of Man Utd's season - Terry is no replacement at all for Ferdinand). There's just no support for central defence from the four midfield players unless they funnel back together.

But I agree with you, MIJB#19, that defending a one goal lead is of dubious tactical merit. Not only is the lead very often lost but the entire momentum switches to the recovering team and often a second goal comes - Gerrard's silly backpass against France was a direct result of that.

But I have some sympathy with the England coach. The team is flakey defensively and it's not surprising he sacrifices some of his excessive attacking play to bolster it.

[andy m]

it was fun to watch though. i'd rather watch england play like that and lose than be boring.

king should be playing instead of terry, he proved that in the france game.

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by andy m

it was fun to watch though. i'd rather watch england play like that and lose than be boring.

An Australian commentator, after the Swiss game, said watching England was like passing a kidney stone

[andy m]

the swiss game was risable. but i think that commentator would change his mind after watching tonights game.

[Mac Howard]

As an England fan I was disappointed to see Saha come on and transform France (would have preferred England meet Greece in the quarters). As a Man Utd fan I'm delighted

[daedalus]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

As an England fan I was disappointed to see Saha come on and transform France (would have preferred England meet Greece in the quarters). As a Man Utd fan I'm delighted

I haven't seen any of the games but in a lot of the interviews with Henry pre-tournament, the particular person amongst the French forwards group he always seem to highlight is Saha.

Saha and Van Nistelrooij for the whole year next year should be outstanding. I can't wait for Ferguson to get all conspiracy theorist like the Italian press at every Smith yellow card, though.

[andy m]

united are supposedly after rooney too. i'd enjoy the games where smith and rooney were played up front in tandem

[Alf]

Screw Italy ! Go for the 2-2 !

[daedalus]

Only if EPL can loan-in Collina.

[daedalus]

Oh . . . and what Alf said. I REALLY want a 2-2 result now.

[Katon]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

If you've seen the England/Croatia match then you can see what I mean that the England team is unbalanced with just 4 defenders and 6 attacking players (not helped by the FA sucking up to Blatter and FIFA in banning Ferdinand for a period that covered Euro 2004 as well as the remainder of Man Utd's season - Terry is no replacement at all for Ferdinand). There's just no support for central defence from the four midfield players unless they funnel back together.

Minor quibble - a fully healthy John Terry is a perfectly good replacement for Ferdinand, arguably even an improvement. John Terry still not really recovered from an injury you are perfectly right about.

[mordhiem]

Originally Posted by Katon

Minor quibble - a fully healthy John Terry is a perfectly good replacement for Ferdinand, arguably even an improvement.

I am sorry, but that is very inaccurate. Ferdinand was in the form of his life and probably the best defender in the Premiership until his ban last year. Certainly, John Terry had a good season, but he is not yet in at 'world-class' level that Ferdinand has reached twice (WC '02 & last season). That is not to say Terry is a terrible defender, because he is a very good one but just not as good as Ferdinand, at least yet. I do think that Ferdinand and Terry will partner each other for England for many years in the future and will become as renownked as the Nesta/Cannavaro partnership is now. Campbell is an excellent defender, but a) he is 29 and age will count against him eventually and b) he has poor ball skills whilst Terry and especially Ferdinand are both excellent with the ball at their feet.

[SirFozzie]

Agreed with the discussion early in the thread. Crying whinebabies Italy deserve to have a 2-2 draw in the other game. Fortunately, I think Bulgaria will eek out a draw against a weakened Azurri side. See? No problem

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Agreed with the discussion early in the thread. Crying whinebabies Italy deserve to have a 2-2 draw in the other game. Fortunately, I think Bulgaria will eek out a draw against a weakened Azurri side. See? No problem

On a positive note, did anyone see that crazy save Buffon made.

[MIJB#19]

So, anyone in for a bet that Sweden-Denmark ends up 3-2 for one side on a last minute freak goal?

[Coder]

I've got this gut-feeling that Denmark will win, and spoil our glorious conspiracy against gli azzuri

[Desnudo]

On a lighter note:

Serena swoons over Rooney

England's Euro stars have found a new fan in the shape of Wimbledon champion Serena Williams.

After easily winning her opener on centre court Williams turned to her new passions - England and especially Wayne Rooney.

"It's weird, I've become an amazing English fan," she said. "I'm huge. I was like when England was down 1-0 (against Croatia) and they made the goal, I was like, 'Whoa'" I was so excited. I was screaming. Thinking, 'Why am I screaming so hard?"

"I don't think he's pudgy at all," she said of Rooney. He's only 18. That's a horribly mean thing to say. He's doing real good. Yeah, he's a real sweetie."

Who said he was pudgy?

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

On a lighter note:

Serena swoons over Rooney

England's Euro stars have found a new fan in the shape of Wimbledon champion Serena Williams.

After easily winning her opener on centre court Williams turned to her new passions - England and especially Wayne Rooney.

"It's weird, I've become an amazing English fan," she said. "I'm huge. I was like when England was down 1-0 (against Croatia) and they made the goal, I was like, 'Whoa'" I was so excited. I was screaming. Thinking, 'Why am I screaming so hard?"

"I don't think he's pudgy at all," she said of Rooney. He's only 18. That's a horribly mean thing to say. He's doing real good. Yeah, he's a real sweetie."

Who said he was pudgy?

I guess the FIFA ruling against the Cameroon outfits has made Serena drop her old football love to adopt a new one.
I wonder when she'll start playing with a red Rooney shirt on...

[andy m]

Originally Posted by mordhiem

he is 29 and age will count against him eventually and b) he has poor ball skills whilst Terry and especially Ferdinand are both excellent with the ball at their feet.

campbell has another 4 years as a world class defender. possibly 5 or 6. he doesn't rely on pace, more so his intelligence and ability to be in the right place at the right time. which is why the rio / sol combo is so effective, 1 player with a high amount of talent, one with a high amount of smarts. campbell's inability to put his foot on the ball doesn't bother me in the least when he snuffs out so much.

i don't foresee terry over-taking campbell as the number one choice to partner rio for quite some time.

[SirFozzie]

Wonder if the weather (drizzle to moderate rainfall) will be a factor in the Sweden-Denmark game. Remember, if the sides draw, Italy has to win by two and score at least three to get through.

[SirFozzie]

Gawd damn! What a goal for Denmark: Tomasson puts in one of the best goals of the tournament, and lead 1-0.

30 minutes in:

1-0 Denmark over Sweden
0-0 Bulgaria/Italy

Denmark would win the group, Sweden second, and Italy would be out (they MUST win)

[SirFozzie]

Right on the stroke on halftime.. Bulgaria gets a PK.. and it's 1-0, and an utter disaster for Italy!

As things stand, they would finish LAST in the group.