Alright boyz here we go again! (TPF download/first impressions thread)

[yabanci]

Originally posted by Buckner
I'm still very new to FOF but have really taken to its depth and its general playability. Some of you have really helped me out with some of my questions, so I guess it comes down to this for those with TPF:

Is it worth it? If you could only play 1 game would it be FOF or TPF? Assuming the above patch stuff is fixed, which is the better game? I know it's still maybe too early to tell but hey.. That sure is a long patch list for a game that's been out a few days, though. Makes you wonder (and makes me fear) that the deeper you go the more you'll uncover that needs fixing. I'm very leery about buying TPF because I felt .400 Software's College Basketball game was atrocious despite a good first impression and I don't want to get burned again.

A few questions that I have not read addressed here:

-How's the Sim Engine? This was the killer in their college hoop game. Do you see solid stats or are there any that stand out as bizarro-world? Leading rushers, passers, sack leaders, etc all look within reason?

-Anyone messed with the multiplayer stuff? (I assume there is MP stuff..). Easy to set up?

-Have any FAs priced themselves out of the market? Do the top shelf FAs all sign believable contracts?

-How's the in-game CPU playcalling AI?

-Finally how's player progression? Any late round picks turning into solid players? Any first round picks busting?

thanks guys,
Mike

I bought TPF, but I shelved it until it's patched up. I have a feeling I'm going to end up leaning toward TPF, because I like to sim slowly, watching the play-by-play of my games and even other big games each week. Since FOF's pbp is so sparse, I think TPF will be better suited to my style of play. I haven't played TPF enough answer the questions.

[The_herd]

Is it worth it?

If you're looking for a game that runs fine with no problems, then no, not yet. If you are looking for a sim that has a lot of potential and is almost guaranteed to get patched into shape very quickly, then yes. I suggestion is hold off until people can get a feel for things after that patch, which is due out today.

-How's the Sim Engine? This was the killer in their college hoop game. Do you see solid stats or are there any that stand out as bizarro-world? Leading rushers, passers, sack leaders, etc all look within reason?

The stats are off, some people are posting some stuff over at .400 showing that they aren't off, but that's BS. The rushing totals are up, passing stats are a bit off, and a few other things. However, Arlie does know about this and they will probably be addressed in patch 2.

-Anyone messed with the multiplayer stuff? (I assume there is MP stuff..). Easy to set up?

There is MP, but I think most are waiting for a patch or 2 to get started with it.

-Have any FAs priced themselves out of the market? Do the top shelf FAs all sign believable contracts?

From my experiences so far, FA prices are pretty good. I haven't seen an unbelievable contract yet. My backups are also asking backup money. And as I've mentioned several times already, I really think contract negotiations is the best I've seen in any game.

-How's the in-game CPU playcalling AI?

The CPU's playcalling is ok, its had some questionable moments in the couple game's that I've watched, but its fairly good overall. I would suggest simming right now instead of watching because there are some other glitches with games when you watch them right now.

-Finally how's player progression? Any late round picks turning into solid players? Any first round picks busting

Although its too early for me to really get a good feel for this yet, I think its ok. QBs are too good right out of college is the only glaring thing I've seen. There are definately Booms and Busts in the draft, but I can't tell you if there are too many/few yet.

[MizzouRah]

From my experiences so far, FA prices are pretty good. I haven't seen an unbelievable contract yet. My backups are also asking backup money. And as I've mentioned several times already, I really think contract negotiations is the best I've seen in any game

Really? Wow, this game might get looked at yet.

Of course until there are onside kicks, two point conversions, etc... I don't think I'll buy the game just yet.


Todd

[Karim]

Yeah, contract negotiations are really well done, with a whole host of personal incentives. You're never stuck wondering "what does he want?" as there's constant feedback. Cap room and bonus money available is always there and dynamically changes so you know what you have to work with.

It is really well done.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Originally posted by MizzouRah
Of course until there are onside kicks, two point conversions, etc... I don't think I'll buy the game just yet.


Todd

I thought it was just fake punts and field goals that didn't make it in. There are really no onside kicks or 2 pointers yet?

[RedKingGold]

Yes, there are no onside kicks or 2 pointers, meaning if you are down by 8 with less than 2 minutes to go, you are literally screwed (even if you score a touchdown)

This (and the penalty problems) are the major reason why I'm going to hold off playing TPF until it is more patched

Its sad, 400 studios did avoid the TDCB debacle, but between the flame wars on the boards and outright glaring omissions, TPF ain't to far off

[Buckner]

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm still in the dark about some stuff though as to how TPF pertains to FoF. Why does TPF have more "potential"? What is it about TPF that makes some of you feel it'll be better than FoF when fully patched? Is it just the play by play? The graphics? Is there more detail (FoF seems pretty detailed to me, granted I'm still learning.) Sorry for all the questions but since there's no demo...

But yeah the game is a definte "hold off" until there are 2 point attempts and onside kicks. That's a deal breaker until patched.

thanks
Mike

[Philliesfan980]

I also I agree 100% with what Mike has to say. I'd like to hear some thoughts on the situation.

[Vince]

I find it interesting that in developing a football sim, they have decided to leave out portions of the game that occur in real life (and are a relatively important part of it) in favor of the "bells and whistles."**

That being said, I like the direction they are taking with the game and am looking forward to it being patched up to the point TDCB is at. Based upon previous experience, I have no doubt they will get it there rather quickly.

** - The use of the phrase 'bells and whistles' is probably inappropriate...though I might not consider the things they focused on more than fluff (welcomed fluff, but not so important nonetheless), other people might be tremendously interested in them. So take this with a grain of salt, as it is purely my unadulterated opinion.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by RedKingGold
Yes, there are no onside kicks or 2 pointers,

I haven't been following this discussion particularly, but just catching this on the last page of the thread (as of posting) ...

Please tell me you're kidding or something, they didn't really omit onside kicks AND 2 point conversions in a pro football sim.

[sabotai]

I never realized they left out onside kicks and 2 point conversions. Guess that somehow didn't make it into the feature lists...

I REALLY hope the make it into a patch.

I'm not going to go as far as get a refund if they don't. I like Arlie and Joe, and want to support them. But I doubt TPF will get much playing time with those kinds of things missing. (And I doubt anymore sims will be bought from them if similar omissions occur in future sims).

[The_herd]

Originally posted by sabotai
I never realized they left out onside kicks and 2 point conversions. Guess that somehow didn't make it into the feature lists...

I REALLY hope the make it into a patch.

I'm not going to go as far as get a refund if they don't. I like Arlie and Joe, and want to support them. But I doubt TPF will get much playing time with those kinds of things missing. (And I doubt anymore sims will be bought from them if similar omissions occur in future sims).

I'm pretty certain he said they would be in a patch soon.

[Vince]

Yeah, I do remember hearing them say it is just a matter of time before those are implemented...but still.

[FargoFreez aka fof playa]

Some of the things lacking in TPF almost make field goals look like a "Top Feature".

They're included, right?

[Karim]

Well, I can't play anymore. The patch has created a whole slew of new problems that weren't there initially. I've posted a running list at the .400 boards but in summary:

- can't extend contract length when negotiating
- free agents' ratings are different when clicked on than when scrolling
- draft no longer works and causes a crash

[Buckner]

sigh, thanks Karim. You are saving me $

[LloydLungs]

The idea that 2-pt conversions and onside kicks (not to mention fake punts/kicks) are considered "features" is a problem to begin with. It's not far off from leaving three-pointers out of a basketball sim or bunts out of a baseball sim.

It simply is not football until they are added.

[Bee]

Originally posted by Karim
Well, I can't play anymore. The patch has created a whole slew of new problems that weren't there initially. I've posted a running list at the .400 boards but in summary:

- can't extend contract length when negotiating
- free agents' ratings are different when clicked on than when scrolling
- draft no longer works and causes a crash

Ouch! Looks like I'll be waiting a while longer before getting the game.

[sabotai]

Originally posted by LloydLungs
The idea that 2-pt conversions and onside kicks (not to mention fake punts/kicks) are considered "features" is a problem to begin with. It's not far off from leaving three-pointers out of a basketball sim or bunts out of a baseball sim.

It simply is not football until they are added.

Yeah, I sometimes laugh at the "feature lists" I see from developers. Most of them are "Duh! You have to have that!" things.

[yabanci]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
Please tell me you're kidding or something, they didn't really omit onside kicks AND 2 point conversions in a pro football sim.

Is it safe to assume that overtime is included?

[Antmeister]

A lot of people are surprised by this. Originally there weren't even timeouts in the game either. As it stands now, there are no 2 pt conversions, no onside kicks, no fake fields and no fake punts. So if you are trying to make any attempt at a comeback, it is very difficult to do so (if not nearly impossible).

[sabotai]

A lot of people are surprised by this. Originally there weren't even timeouts in the game either.

I hope Arlie is reading this.....THAT'S FREAKING INSANE!

[Antmeister]

Originally posted by sabotai
I hope Arlie is reading this.....THAT'S FREAKING INSANE!

Well as a GM game, I happen to like the game, but if you have any wishes to be a coach, it is fairly limited.

The timeouts only came out with this patch and there is still no in-game substitutions either.

Now if this were strictly a GM game, I would be fine with that, but you are automatically given the title of head coach and GM. You can't hire your own head coach.

If you simulate the game, you are doing so with you as a coach and if you suck, the owner will fire you even if you never coached one game.

[General Mike]

Sounds like a certain group of people didnt do their job *wink wink nudge nudge*

[Antmeister]

Originally posted by General Mike
Sounds like a certain group of people didnt do their job *wink wink nudge nudge*

Heh, I think the problem is that some of the beta testers are not really interested in coaching and possibly didn't look too closely at the features. Just my opinion, of course.

[General Mike]

Originally posted by Antmeister71
Heh, I think the problem is that some of the beta testers are not really interested in coaching and possibly didn't look too closely at the features. Just my opinion, of course.

I agree. I think that stuff like the lack of timeouts/ onside kicks/ penalties would have been reported in beta testing if people were really focused on the play by play. If the beta testers pointed it out to Arlie before the game was released and he ignored them than thats something, but I don't think thats what happened.

I realize .400 studios games are far from perfect on release which is why I'm holding off on buying TPF, but I hold off on buying most games i play (mainly video games) until I've given them a rental. I played the demo of TPBasketball, and I enjoyed it, but there were certain things that kept me from buying it, such as the IR bug. If there was a demo of TPF available right now, it would probably be the same way for me, but once it gets straightened out it sounds like it has alot of potential and should be a good game.

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by General Mike
I agree. I think that stuff like the lack of timeouts/ onside kicks/ penalties would have been reported in beta testing if people were really focused on the play by play. If the beta testers pointed it out to Arlie before the game was released and he ignored them than thats something, but I don't think thats what happened.

From Mr. Rahn:

"In a first version of the game, you have to make certain decisions. We did a chat months ago where we said that fake punts and FGs would not be in the initial release.

I have also stated that onside kicks and 2-points will be added in a future patch. Plus, I refined the penalty logic in this 1.1 patch and added in the ability to rest your starters for this first patch. My feeling was with the ability to set as detailed a depth chart as you can in TPF and still have the ability to rest starters (ie, play younger players or backups when the game is out of hand) was enough for this release from a substitution standpoint. I will, as always, listen to the community on this as well."

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by yabanci Is it safe to assume that overtime is included?

Judging strictly by what I've read in this thread ... I wouldn't feel safe to assume anything other than several patches in the future.

[Easy Mac]

FOF fanboy

[Buckner]

I have to ask...what does the fact that it's a first release have to do with it? It's not like .400 Software is pressured by retail chains for shelf space and time limits. Onside kicks and 2 pt conversions should have been in the game from the get go. That it is to be patched is great, but the "hey this is a first release" excuse is lame. A text sim needs to have ALL of the basics covered from the start and onside kicks are 2 pt conversions are pretty darn basic. Until said patch is released TPF cannot be considered a serious football simulation.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by General Mike
Sounds like a certain group of people didnt do their job *wink wink nudge nudge*

I've got zero idea what the current .400 beta process is like, so please consider this as an observation in very general terms --

Having been through another sports sim beta project in the past, unless there's an admission from one side or the other, I don't believe you can safely assume anything about what a beta team didn't mention vs what a developer didn't do/fix/change.

That beta experience was easily, without any hesitation, the single most frustrating project I've ever been a part of, professional or amateur, paid or volunteer.
Just .02 worth

[General Mike]

Am I the only one who missed this in the last hour?

From Arlie:

"Guys, somehow I had some version control issues and uploaded the wrong EXE for the patch. I'm not sure how it happened, but I just downloaded the patch and got consistent crashes in week 1. I couldn't even sim a game. I tried my EXE that I had earmarked for the patch and it worked fine for week 1.

Anyhow, I posted the correct EXE here and apologize to any of you that downloaded the other one and were frustrated with this error. I changed the link in the announcement message to the new EXE.

Please try this new EXE and it should fix this RTE 91 in week 1 while coaching games. Also, please do not be critical of the BETA team for this. It was a mistake on my part from an uploading standpoint. The BETA team (and some of you I recruited) put a great deal of holiday time into testing this and I want to again express my appreciation and gratitude towards them.

http://www.400softwarestudios.com/re...fUpdate_11.zip

Download the file above, copy the TPF.EXE file found there over your current TPF.EXE located in your main installation folder. And, if you have any stability issues with old save games I would recommend starting a new career to be safe. If you do not have a career that was started in version 1.0 with the fantasy draft beginning in the offseason, this patch may fix your old save game. But, I don't know if any lingering issues will be there. So, to be safe, you may want to start a new career. "

http://www.400softwarestudios.com/in...howtopic=46329

ETA: the .400 studios message board clock is totally off, so who knows when it was really posted.

[Barkeep49]

I've never been such a big fan of .400's corporate spin. The party line for this seems to be "Had an ambitious features list and things had to get left out". I'm cool with that. But how can two point conversions be considered a feature? I might be willing grant onside kicks as a feature (this is a big might) and frankly don't really give a damn about fake fg/punts. I really wanted to buy this one from them and now, well, maybe after a couple patches I'll plunk down my money. I just hope that when Shaun releases his new baseball game that it follows his tradition of rock solid releases rather than the .400 sports pattern. I still am rather taken aback by the idea that 2 point conversions are features that the developer could choose to include or not include. By that logic I guess the foward pass is a feature too since a bunch of football games have been played historically with-out that too...

[HornedFrog Purple]

The forward pass is a feature! I would not be crying if it was left out.

[sabotai]

Blitzing is a feature. Has this been confirmed to be in the game yet?

[HornedFrog Purple]

Now those are fighting words.....

[Buccaneer]

[taking a break from wrapping presents]

I still don't understand this fatalistic view. Isn't TPF's strength always supposed to be in GM decision making and roster management features? Aren't the touted features the draft, free agenting, trading, depth charts, etc.? Why are you guys turning this into a coaching/pbp sim only? If you want that, why not play Madden? I realize the dream (and expectation) is to have both but I would think that hitting the quick sim button (or however you do it) works well, does it not? Yes, there are some GM stuff that doesn't work well but that's what you get for believing the PR hype and having unrealistic expectations for a 1st generation product.

[Easy Mac]

so you want it to simluate being a football GM regardless of whether it gives football results that determine your job in the game?

[Cringer]

Wow!

I know i am just echoing others but i really just have to say it.
I really wanted this game and was going to buy it over my long weekend here to play. But i don't think i can even say out loud "I am going to buy this game now," without luaghing at myself. This is really VERY dissapointing sounding. And you don';t hire head coaches because you are the head coach just irks me a little more i think. I most likely am a "FOF fanboy," but i still thought i would love this game just as much if not more if it turned out what it promised to be. I cna't see myself buying this AT ALL now. Unless some of this stuff is patched REALLY fast, otherwise i have other games i can move onto, if i can tear myself away from FOF2004. Just getting going in an online league will make that hard though.Now i just need to figure out what my "late" christmas present will be, since TPF was gonna be it.

[Bonegavel]

Originally posted by Buckner
Thanks for the replies guys. I'm still in the dark about some stuff though as to how TPF pertains to FoF. Why does TPF have more "potential"? What is it about TPF that makes some of you feel it'll be better than FoF when fully patched?

To me, the main reason it has more potential is that Joe and Arlie are more willing to "listen" to we the users (as opposed to Jim) and, for better or worse, I think there is a better chance of getting "more" in the game that we want.

[Antmeister]

Ok Buccaneer, I understand your point, but the problem is that you do not have an option to be just a GM. You are forced to be both. You succeed in this game if your coach does well (which is me). You don't have an option to hire a head coach.

I am not slamming the game. I am just saying that if I have to be both roles, I should have all the options in my disposal to win. I mean why else include PBP and over 300 plays if coaching wasn't considered an important option. Why have any coaching options at all for that matter, like adding people to the inactive list or adjusting your depth charts or setting up a practice schedule. These are functions of a coach, not a GM.

[FargoFreez aka fof playa]

Originally posted by Bonegavel
To me, the main reason it has more potential is that Joe and Arlie are more willing to "listen" to we the users (as opposed to Jim) and, for better or worse, I think there is a better chance of getting "more" in the game that we want.

You should see if you could get them to rename the title of the game to "Don't even think of kicking it short on me, bitch".

[Buccaneer]

Antmeister: This gets at something that I had in back of my mind since FOF2 - if you were to set up a controlled test with coaching features vs AI coaching, would you get better results over the long run? In other words, how much does randomness or luck factor in? This is rhetorical for now.

To answer your's and mac's question, I want to know that when I fast sim, it would give me results within the range of expectations (e.g., a team loaded with superstars wouldn't go 0-16). What I don't know yet from all of these posts is whether the AI goes ahead and logs in 2pt conversions (for example), even if you can't manually call one. When I fast sim (in OOTP, FOF), I don't even bother with the logs so I don't know whether the AI tried to call any specific plays. If there are no 2pt conversions in the game at all, then that is insufficient. My point is that all football plays should be in the game, regardless if its in the pbp or not.

But seeing that there are missing features in the GM parts and trading is weak, I'm holding off until they are there. I won't go through the charade of buying, returning and buying again. So far this year, I am 0-2 on football sims and that is kinda sad.

[Bonegavel]

Originally posted by FargoFreez aka fof playa
You should see if you could get them to rename the title of the game to "Don't even think of kicking it short on me, bitch".

At this point, I haven't even made it to my first regular season game. Between "figuring out what to do" and the patches, I haven't gone farther than week 12 of the first offseason.

[Antmeister]

Originally posted by Buccaneer
Antmeister: This gets at something that I had in back of my mind since FOF2 - if you were to set up a controlled test with coaching features vs AI coaching, would you get better results over the long run? In other words, how much does randomness or luck factor in? This is rhetorical for now.

Well for one, there are decisions I would have made differently than the PBP that would have determined the outcome of the game. For one, you can't kneel the ball to run out the clock and you have no 2-minute offense (actually, this is not much different than earlier versions of FOF), but the thing that really gets me is that if you are behind by any number of points, you can't make an onside kick or hit that two point conversion to tie. The game log will often reflect this as well. I didn't expect the playcalling to be the most fantastic thing in the world, but leaving out some rules of the game is just wrong. Luckily this will all be addressed in the next patch.

Originally posted by Buccaneer

But seeing that there are missing features in the GM parts and trading is weak, I'm holding off until they are there. I won't go through the charade of buying, returning and buying again. So far this year, I am 0-2 on football sims and that is kinda sad.

All I have to say about this is that I am sure it will be vastly improved in 1 or 2 patches. If you just love the GM functions, this game is pretty good (in my opinion). I look forward to the draft (in which I feel more involved with). The contract negotiations are nice and even trading seems good (at least with this 1st patch). Hopefully when the demo comes out, you can judge it from there.

[Axxon]

One question just came to mind about the no onsides kicks and no 2 pt plays. Since they were planning to add these features soon but didn't have time for the release, why not just be upfront and tell people that these features were missing but would be added shortly? Anybody, like me ( though I never expressed such on any board btw ), who was impatient and wanted to play the game asap could order now but those who didn't mind waiting wouldn't be broadsided by the issue.

Seems like it would have cut down on some of the criticism. Well, probably not but the criticizers couldn't say that they bought the game expecting it to be there like they are saying now anyway.

[HornedFrog Purple]

I am really not being critical, I am just surprised that they weren't included. But I agree something on the website saying "coming soon" would have been appropriate. That was one of the minor gripes with Tournament Dreams concerning the multiplayer aspect not in the game yet. But there were more immediate problems obviously at the time.

This sim has been in development for quite a while and it just surprised me that's all.

[TroyF]

I read bits and snippets of the thread. . . and then I got to this last page and had a heart attack.

No two point conversions or onside kicks? I can live without the fake kicks, but the other two can have a direct impact on your game.

I'm glad I held off. I'm now wondering how well they'll be put into place when they are put in the game. Will the AI try for 2 in the correct situations? Will it use a blanket chart to determine when to go for 2 and do it too early in the game?

As has been said, these things aren't features. These are important facets of an NFL game. Things that even as GM will come into play and bother me to no end.

I'll probably buy the game at some point down the road, but I have to say this would be considered a game killer for me.

Thank goodness I'm having so much fun with FOF. Yep, I'm a fanboy.

[damnMikeBrown]

Don't worry about the 2pt conversions & fake kicks. The game is completely unplayable now for me. The "patch" 1.1 has introduced a here to fore, rarely seen 91 error. It now occurs like clockwork every time I try so sim week 1. I used both the first 1.1 patch, and the second 1.1 "patch".

At least it's gotten me back into playing SWG. Wow, a football sim has made me appreciate SOE. . . damn. . .

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Antmeister71
Heh, I think the problem is that some of the beta testers are not really interested in coaching and possibly didn't look too closely at the features. Just my opinion, of course.

.400 did an excellent job of getting a balanced group of beta testers with different game interests. The people who were taking a hard look at PBP were people very interested in PBP. I'll assure you of that.