04-08-2006, 03:24 PM | #201 | |
"Dutch"
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You bolded something that the writer more than likely just made up and threw in the article to add drama. Just so you know. |
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04-08-2006, 03:32 PM | #202 | |
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Any response to the rest of the article? |
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04-08-2006, 03:36 PM | #203 | |
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That's the line that should have been bolded. |
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04-08-2006, 03:40 PM | #204 | |
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What's the problem with the way things are now? Didn't Bush talk about decreasing reliance on Middle East oil in his State of the Union address? |
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04-08-2006, 03:43 PM | #205 | |
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Don't tell me you took that seriously. |
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04-08-2006, 03:47 PM | #206 | ||||||||
"Dutch"
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I think it's all drama. Quote:
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In other news, An undisclosed informant close to Hillary Clinton camp has confirmed that people close to Hillary say she will nuke Texas if elected to office. Scary stuff, eh? |
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04-08-2006, 03:50 PM | #207 | ||
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Literally tommorow? I doubt it. But this is a big topic. Don't try and dismiss it as some contingency plan akin to South America. Quote:
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04-08-2006, 03:51 PM | #208 | |
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So I'll assume you have nothing to say about the article? |
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04-08-2006, 03:58 PM | #209 | |
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I think it's just noise - people trying to use the press to stir up public opinion one way or the other. I don't think this administration has a move in terms of Iran, unless things start blowing up. They're painted in a corner. The next administration will have a lot more room to move, whether it's a Dem or Republican one. |
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04-08-2006, 04:10 PM | #210 | |
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There is nothing there. No meat. Supposition, pretense, logical leaps. That article has it all. Well every thing except a shred of evidence or credibility. Dutch's piece on Hillary had nearly as much credibility as your article. This has the tone of some liberal's rampant rambling about how screwed up the administration is. |
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04-08-2006, 04:21 PM | #211 | ||
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Yeah, you're right. It was silly of me to think that we would unilaterally invade a country without provocation. Quote:
So you think the Admin. has done a good job? I guess I know at least one person in the 36%, then. |
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04-08-2006, 04:53 PM | #212 |
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Everything said in that article might very well be true. But without evidence, it's not a good article or something to be taken seriously. If you want something with a little more meat with regards to whether we are planning an attack, skip the unnamed sources and start looking at things like http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/2006341654.asp
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04-08-2006, 06:19 PM | #213 | |
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04-08-2006, 06:21 PM | #214 | ||
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04-08-2006, 06:28 PM | #215 | |
"Dutch"
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Just a list of clues to know if we are really preparing to invade Iran. To be fair, the article in question from the New York Post doesn't allude to whether there will be a full-scale build up in the coming months, any more diplomacy, or if Bush is planning to 'Pearl Harbor' their asses. If Bush was planning a surprise nuclear strike (just to piss off the voters of course), he wouldn't make a big fuss about it before hand. That's were articles like the one in the New York Post (EDIT: New Yorker?) is so valuable, you see. It can read the mind of the Bush Admin and piss off the voters without Bush ever having to implement globalthermonuclear war. Last edited by Dutch : 04-08-2006 at 06:29 PM. |
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04-08-2006, 06:37 PM | #216 | |||
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What I find funny though is Glengoyne's complete disregard of the media. It's like he sucked up completely the GOP propaganda about the liberal media:
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04-08-2006, 06:39 PM | #217 |
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Wasn't Seymour Hersh the guy who 'discovered' that it was actually the US, not Saddam Hussein, who nerve gassed the Kurds?
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04-08-2006, 06:51 PM | #218 | |
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04-08-2006, 07:01 PM | #219 | |
"Dutch"
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Seymour Hersh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh Quote:
WTF? Get that man another Pulitzer quick, he's starting to make shit up! |
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04-08-2006, 07:06 PM | #220 | |
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Good catch Dutch. |
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04-08-2006, 07:08 PM | #221 | ||
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Ummm.. .If you read that whole story, that's about much more than protecting his source if you read the Abu Gharib example.
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04-08-2006, 07:23 PM | #222 | |
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04-08-2006, 07:24 PM | #223 | |
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Couple of things. I didn't realize that Seymour Hersh wrote this piece. Also I never once attacked the journalistic quality or integrity of the article. I simply pointed out that there was nothing there except "secret sources", "hearsay", "inuendo", and "characterizations of the President's state of mind made entirely by the author". When I read an article, I evaluate the contents. When I read statements that make what I would consider to be extraordinary claims, I look to see if they are backed up. In this article, there is nothing. I't's like the author makes this outlandish statements, and then says "Trust me". Knowing now that Seymour Hersh was the author, makes my characterization of the article as "some liberal's rampant rambling about just how screwed up the administration is." (I missed the just earlier.) seem actually more apt. Seymour Hersh is an outspoken critic of the administration, and has made unfounded outlandish claims in his articles previously. Mostly more of the same. Assumptions and conclusions, all his own. He draws conclusions from his research, and essentially attributes those "divined motives" to those he is writing about. The conclusions he draws, sometimes require great leaps between the evidence and the conclusion. In short Seymour Hersh has lost some credibility since his "Mai Lai" stories. He did break the Abu Gharaib story, but I'm starting to wonder if he hasn't gotten carried away with the outrage that story brought about in all of us. I say this because he has also reported that we're already attacking Iran, and didn't he also report something about an outlandish FBI crackdown on indecency? I'm not sure about the last bit, but I am sure that Hersh's credibility is headed the wrong way on the Journalistic flag-pole. I see Hersh as a guy who regularly steps outside the bounds of journalistic reporting, and strays into loosely crafted fiction. I think pieces like the one linked above are pretty good evidence that Seymour Hersh is a rambling liberal ranting about just how screwed up the administration is. EDIT: Oh yeah. You guys criticize me for drinking the GOP Kool-aid, yet you completely buy into the tripe in that article. My criticisms of the article are real and valid. Any unbiased evalutaion would draw the same conclusion. This isn't about protecting sources, it goes way beyond that. Last edited by Glengoyne : 04-08-2006 at 07:28 PM. |
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04-08-2006, 07:27 PM | #224 | ||
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Just because it is a speech doesn't mean he should feel free to spew out ridiculous non-truths, even if some rat told it to him. The fact that he did reflects on him as a journalist.
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Last edited by wade moore : 04-08-2006 at 07:27 PM. |
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04-08-2006, 07:27 PM | #225 | |
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04-08-2006, 07:35 PM | #226 | |
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04-08-2006, 07:36 PM | #227 | ||
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04-08-2006, 07:39 PM | #228 |
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Seymour Hersh also wrote a bizarre article a few months ago accusing the US of 'fixing' the Iraqi elections.
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04-08-2006, 07:39 PM | #229 | |
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04-08-2006, 07:44 PM | #230 | ||
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04-08-2006, 07:49 PM | #231 | |
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In other words: I disagree with this administration because I think they're going to do something I disagree with. |
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04-08-2006, 07:57 PM | #232 | |
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04-08-2006, 07:58 PM | #233 |
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I dont understand the nuclear scare. If country A nukes country B, then country A gets nuked by the UN (figuratively speaking). Everyone knows this. Who cares if they get the bomb, i dont, let them. Let them Nuke Isael, killing them and their allies next door. That just seals Irans fate, end of story. No country will ever nuke another, it just wont happen.
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04-08-2006, 07:59 PM | #234 | |
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Yes. I was just trying to put it in a way that was clear. |
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04-08-2006, 08:00 PM | #235 | |
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Sure, why not? |
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04-08-2006, 08:03 PM | #236 | |
"Dutch"
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I'm pretty sure that the economic sanctions the UN put on Iraq were the last bit of bite that dog had....they might still be able to bark, but until the UN is reformed, Iran isn't going to care less what it has to say. |
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04-08-2006, 08:06 PM | #237 | |
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04-08-2006, 08:10 PM | #238 | |
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And as I tried to explain in my first post of the thread, it's not that Iran/the Mullahs are going to nuke Israel as soon as they get nukes. It's the revolution at the gates scenario - as long as the mullahs were being overthrown by their own population anyway, why wouldn't they nuke Israel and give some missiles to terrorist groups like Hezbollah? They've already lost everything in that scenario, why not kill a few million along with them? |
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04-08-2006, 08:13 PM | #239 | |
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04-08-2006, 08:16 PM | #240 | |
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Ok i shouldnt have said UN, I didnt mean them literally. I meant, the retaliation on Country A would be sanctioned by the entire free world. What country would actually nuke another? I dont see any country no matter how freakish they are, would actually say, "Hey, lets nuke them so we all can die too" - it just doesnt seem plausible any country would ever destroy itself to destroy another. |
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04-08-2006, 08:23 PM | #241 | |
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04-08-2006, 08:32 PM | #242 | |
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04-08-2006, 08:44 PM | #243 | |
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04-08-2006, 09:32 PM | #244 | |||
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As for an example I'm not anywhere near the first to criticize Hersh's Journalistic "bent" with regard to uncited sources and inuendo. I'm sure any number of of Google searches on his name would yield some fodder for you. I'm not going to hunt for a link I think you will find credible. As for your quotes. You have provided a better example of journalism than Hersh's article. I believe those guys actually said what they said, and you could editorialize about their comments to your heart's content. My response to what those guys said... Well I think it would be irresponsible to NOT plan on striking targets in Iran, even if the effort goes wasted. It is better to have a plan, or rather several plans, ready, just in case it is necessary. Also I don't think it is necessarilly the Millitary's job to assess the ramifications of a millitary intervention. So I'm hopeful, dare I say, confident that someone else somewhere in the Government is acting as the voice of reason against attacking Iran. Also my criticism of the Hersh piece isn't I disagree with it. It is that it doesn't live up to Journalistic standards. Quote:
This is tantamount to "My sister's cousin's friend says". It is quite a claim. Too bad it is so loosely cited that it can't really be given much weight in analysis. Quote:
This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. He is addressing Bush's state of mind. As if Seymour Hersh knows thing one about the President's private thoughts on this matter. This is what I'm referring to where he takes certain liberties that I don't believe are typical in journalism. He has an opinion as to how bad this administration is, and he declare's the President's mindset on a topic using that opinion. |
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04-08-2006, 09:59 PM | #245 | |
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so you just can just believe what you want, that is written, and then say everything that doesnt jive with you is just made up?
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04-08-2006, 10:01 PM | #246 | |
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I don't think you can deny that everybody does this to at least some extent. Whatever doesn't match your perception of the world is rejected as untrue. That's simple human nature. |
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04-08-2006, 10:19 PM | #247 | |
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04-08-2006, 10:26 PM | #248 |
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This is not at all analogous to the Iraq situation.
With Iraq, everybody knew the US was going to invade. Here, you have people worried that the US might be thinking about invading. There are many other critical differences between the two situations, not least the political situation in the US. |
04-08-2006, 10:53 PM | #249 | |
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No actually I'm saying that Rexallsc was going overboard on this topic because he bought into the unsubstantianted rhetoric in the Hersh article. I believe what the article and the other sources are saying about the US preparing plans for millitary strikes in Iran. That much of the article I buy. Note: I don't think this should honestly be a surprise to anyone either..it would be a description of "business as usual". The extraneous garbage, that isn't being reported elsewhere, is that Bush is hungry for war in Iran, that he is actively wanting to deal with Iran millitarilly, that the diplomatic pursuits are essentially a sham. The part of the article that inflames partisans like Rex and you. That is what I had trouble with. |
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04-09-2006, 12:44 AM | #250 | |
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