2005 MLB Playoffs Thread - Page 5

Young Drachma · 10-12-2005, 10:10 PM

He's doing a good job. Scioscia with actually just flat out saying they didn't lose on the one play. That's stand up.

Young Drachma · 10-12-2005, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

The worst part about it is that the 3rd base ump should have been consulted earlier. By the time they did, it was so long after the call, he couldn't reverse it and make the guy look like an idiot.

agreed.

GoldenEagle · 10-12-2005, 10:11 PM

The ball hit the dirt. There is no doubt about that. McCarver was drunk and could not see it and went raving on about it. He had his mitt angeled down and not even a major league catcher can catch that cleanly. Remeber the ball just to hit the dirt. It does not matter if he catches it cleanly.

Young Drachma · 10-12-2005, 10:12 PM

I agree that the ball did hit the dirt. Paul tried to totally play it so that he had caught up and well, they almost got that. But AJ was smart, said that he'd seen that happen last year and that was heads up, whether or not it was "fair"

kingfc22 · 10-12-2005, 10:13 PM

What?! I'm sorry but I could care less what McCarver says, that ball did not hit the ground.

Ksyrup · 10-12-2005, 10:16 PM

I don't think it hit the dirt. But think about it - Paul cleanly had the ball and AJ was right there to be tagged, so if he knew he didn't catch it, his first instinct would be to tag the guy. Instinctual actions are a good indication of what happened.

Here's a question, though - does the ump call the hitter out even on a clear wild pitch/swinging strike, or is he just calling a strike?

kingfc22 · 10-12-2005, 10:19 PM

If you see the one angle over AJ's shoulder you see Paul's glove hit the dirt. When he lifts the glove up the ball is squarely in the middle of his glove. No way it could of hit the dirt with him catching it like that. Now if from the same angle he caught the ball like a sno-cone you would be able to see the ball hitting the dirt when he turns his glove hand around.

McSweeny · 10-12-2005, 10:21 PM

the ump called strike and then he made the fist for the out call

terrible

st.cronin · 10-12-2005, 10:21 PM

It looked to me like Paul caught it cleanly. It also looked to me like the ump didn't even consider whether it was caught cleanly until Prznski ran to first, then figured it MUST have been in the dirt, or else why would he run?

Either way, just a totally lame performance by the umps.

GoldenEagle · 10-12-2005, 10:24 PM

I agree that the umpires messed this up. They fell asleep on the call. There is no doubt about that. I just think it would have been very had for the catcher to have caught that ball cleanly. Ksyrup does bring up a good point and in my experience as an umpire catchers always tag if there is any doubt in their mind.

kingfc22 · 10-12-2005, 10:33 PM

Haha! "Doug ruled the ball was trapped".

Cards4ever · 10-12-2005, 10:33 PM

Scioscia handled that with total class, good job on his part.

Logan · 10-12-2005, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

The ball hit the dirt. There is no doubt about that. McCarver was drunk and could not see it and went raving on about it. He had his mitt angeled down and not even a major league catcher can catch that cleanly. Remeber the ball just to hit the dirt. It does not matter if he catches it cleanly.

What the hell replay were you watching?

Cards4ever · 10-12-2005, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Good game, Cards. Carpenter was on and you managed to hit Petitte.

However, we lost that game with our crappy batting with men in scoring position

I was surprised that the Cards were able to score that many runs on Pettitte.

However, the Cards won the game plain and simple, no excuses.

jbmagic · 10-12-2005, 10:41 PM

can the Angels protest the game?

Logan · 10-12-2005, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbmagic

can the Angels protest the game?

Nope, its a judgment call. Not an interpretation of rule.

Cards4ever · 10-12-2005, 10:44 PM

Scioscia said they couldn't.

jbmagic · 10-12-2005, 10:47 PM

damn the Angels got rob.

but the angel catcher should of tag player out or threw to first just in case, when he saw batter take off.

Logan · 10-12-2005, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbmagic

damn the Angels got rob.

but the angel catcher should of tag player out or threw to first just in case, when he saw batter take off.

No he shouldn't have, because he caught it. If you throw it, it looks like you didn't catch it. Imagine he threw it into the dirt or past the 1B?

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding · 10-12-2005, 11:08 PM

Yes, it was a terrible call.

However, listening to John Kruk on baseball tonight he said the umpire says out if the player is out after the strikeout. It seems the umpire didn't do that in this case. He just called the strike signal.

The play wasn't over. Its like in football where a play isn't dead until the whistle was blown. Josh Paul should not have assumed the play was over.

Was it still a terrible call? You bet.

panerd · 10-12-2005, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

Yes, it was a terrible call.

However, listening to John Kruk on baseball tonight he said the umpire says out if the player is out after the strikeout. It seems the umpire didn't do that in this case. He just called the strike signal.

The play wasn't over. Its like in football where a play isn't dead until the whistle was blown. Josh Paul should not have assumed the play was over.

Was it still a terrible call? You bet.

I assume from your name you were watching the game? The replay clearly shows th ump calling a strike and making an out signal. So maybe Kruk didn't see it, but I did. And I am pretty sure you did also.

LastWhiteSoxFanStanding · 10-12-2005, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panerd

I assume from your name you were watching the game? The replay clearly shows th ump calling a strike and making an out signal. So maybe Kruk didn't see it, but I did. And I am pretty sure you did also.

Let me repeat: IT WAS A TERRIBLE CALL.

Also Let me repeat. There is a tradition according to baseball players who play in the major leagues that a play is not considered dead until the umpire verbalizes it.

Apparently, he didn't verbalize it.

Draft Dodger · 10-12-2005, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panerd

I assume from your name you were watching the game? The replay clearly shows th ump calling a strike and making an out signal. So maybe Kruk didn't see it, but I did. And I am pretty sure you did also.

maybe it would have been helpful if the ump had held up a donut while making the call. Kruk SURELY would have seen THAT!

panerd · 10-12-2005, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

Let me repeat: IT WAS A TERRIBLE CALL.

Also Let me repeat. There is a tradition according to baseball players who play in the major leagues that a play is not considered dead until the umpire verbalizes it.

Apparently, he didn't verbalize it.

My question is how would Kruk know any better than you or me if he verbalized it? Forget it, at least you admit it was a terrible call. Unfortunatly you are implying the there is a chance that the ump didn't call the guy out when the replay clearly shows him calling the guy out. Kruk can play devil's advocate and defend a unfathamable lapse of reason all he wants but there is a 0% chance that Kruk is right. Sorry.

Logan · 10-12-2005, 11:31 PM

Well, technically its a strikeout whether the catcher makes the catch or not. What is the signal from the umpire in that situation (While I've seen the play probably hundreds of times, I don't remember what is considered the "correct" signal for the ump to make). Should he punch a guy out (as if to say "it wasn't tipped")? Should he not make a signal at all (like a play at the plate where the catcher misses the tag, but once he sees the ump hasn't made any signal, realizes that it means the batter didn't touch the plate and can then tag him)?

We know one thing: The call itself was bad. Really bad.

GoldenEagle · 10-12-2005, 11:39 PM

The umpire should not verablize on a swinging strike three. My signal for a swing is the same as his. I do it everytime. However, when I know it was a drop third strike, I do not do anything. But it was the ninth inning of the game and the umpire probably got in the habit of doing that. He did do it after every strike. That is his signal for strike.

GoldenEagle · 10-12-2005, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logan

We know one thing: The call itself was bad. Really bad.

I disagree. It was a call that could have gone either away. I have alreeady stated I did not think he caught it. I have not seen anything rule that it was a catch or not. Even if it was the wrong call, it was not that bad of a call.

DaddyTorgo · 10-12-2005, 11:42 PM

even if it was a wrong call it didn't result in the Yankees winning anything, which means that overall it was an alright call.

MrBug708 · 10-12-2005, 11:45 PM

The umpire blew it and then he lied about it in his press conference. He said he didnt signal an out, that was his strike three call. But the batter BEFORE was a passed ball and the umpire didn't make the same motion as what the umpire made for AJ.

molson · 10-13-2005, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logan

Nope, its a judgment call. Not an interpretation of rule.

Whether the ball touched the ground is a clearly judgment call - but what about calling someone out, and then allowing actions that happened after that third out call to stand? Doesn't calling a third out result in a "dead ball"? That sounds more like a mistake in the intrepretation of the rules to me.

Chief Rum · 10-13-2005, 12:55 AM

The umpire made the signal for the AJ Pierz to be out. When an umpire signals a ball has not been caught in such a situation, it is apaprently standard for the umpire to say "no catch". He did not say this (he said so in the press conference that he did not). He made the strike call and made the out motion and did not say "no catch". After all of which, Paul tossed the ball onto the field and started walking off of the field with all of the other Angels (having been given plenty of indications from the umpire that the play was dead).

Pierz, being crafty, decides (after two steps toward the dugout, mind you) that he's going to run to first because he knew the ball was really close to the ground. This is after the Angels are already walking off of the field. The umpire makes no call until he reaches first, and then "decides" to call him safe.

Basically, Pierz fooled the umpire into thinking the ball had hit the ground and ruled him safe. Basically, the umpire reversed his decision when he called him safe, and with his actions, essentially eliminated any but the most remote possibility that the Angels could have gotten Pierz out (the ball by then several feet from any Angels player).

Solecismic · 10-13-2005, 01:16 AM

Somebody on another forum said he reviewed a game on mlbtv Eddings called behind the plate early this season. There was a dropped third strike. He did not signal out.

I agree that Paul sprinted for the dugout too soon. But the other players on the field reacted to the out call. At that point, it should be a dead ball.

This wasn't a judgment call on the umpire's part. It doesn't matter whether the ball hit the ground or not. He called him out.

They need to replay this one from the 10th inning on. I'm sure Selig doesn't have the balls to do it, though.

Ksyrup · 10-13-2005, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

The umpire made the signal for the AJ Pierz to be out. When an umpire signals a ball has not been caught in such a situation, it is apaprently standard for the umpire to say "no catch". He did not say this (he said so in the press conference that he did not). He made the strike call and made the out motion and did not say "no catch". After all of which, Paul tossed the ball onto the field and started walking off of the field with all of the other Angels (having been given plenty of indications from the umpire that the play was dead).

I don't disagree with any of this, except for one thing: Paul was in no position to have the same excuse the rest of his teammates, coaches, and the fans do, which is that we all saw the ump do the "pump fist" out call. Paul's back was to the ump the entire time, so he didn't see the out call being made, and he didn't hear it being made. BBTN showed several swinging third strikes from earlier in the game, and the ump called them the exact same way - arm out, then fist pump. If this was different, and AJ was not out, then the ump should have signalled the call differently. But that doesn't excuse Paul for not getting some indication of what the call is.

I still don't see how it wasn't a catch. I saw the blowup of it and the changed trajectory, but to me, that happened at the precise moment he caught it, so I believe the movement of the ball was because it was hitting mitt and being caught. The real problem here is that this particular type of call is almost completely guess work on the ump's part. I still have not heard Eddings say that he heard the ball hit the ground, or a "bump-bump" double thud which would suggest dirt then mitt. All he said was, "I had the ball hitting the ground." That tells me he was just guessing. So failing his hearing the ball hit the ground, he made a completely blind call. That's what I find to be inexcusable on his part.

Ksyrup · 10-13-2005, 07:34 AM

This is pretty funny...another message board I frequent that just happens to be based on a Chicago community of music listeners pointed out that Josh Paul played for both the White Sox and Cubs and is obviously cursed. And then someone pointed out that Matt Clement, Tony Graffinino, and Kyle Farnsworth are all ex-Chicago players who seriously fucked up their teams' chances of winning in the post-season already.

The curse - some kind of curse - lives!

Ksyrup · 10-13-2005, 09:27 AM

Discussing this with some folks in the office, we're trying to figure out what the rule is in football in a similar situation. Under the assumption that Edding's fist pump was his clear "out" call - and based on the way he called previous swinging 3rd strikes in the game, it was - but there was no verbal indication given, let's compare what happened last night to a hypothetical football scenario.

If the QB throws a borderline forward pass/lateral, and the ref signals the play as incomplete but for some reason no whistle is blown, and at least some of the players see the "incomplete pass" hand signal and let up, thinking the play is dead, but one guy picks up the ball and runs with it (as usually happens, regardless of how obviously dead the play is) and scores a TD, and the ref gives him a TD because no whistle was blown, how is that resolved? I know that normally, the play is whistled dead even if there is a significant delay between the play ending and the whistles blowing, but assume no whistle is blown. Does the TD stand, or is the ref required to retroactively blow the play dead because of his hand signals?

It seems that this is basically what happened last night. I know there is some controversy over whether Eddings' hand signal was "out" versus "strike 3," but he used the same "arm out, fist pump" action on 2 or 3 swinging strikes earlier in the game where there was no question that the ball was cleanly caught by the catcher, so in my mind, he signalled AJ out, regardless of whether he thought he was just calling a 3rd strike. In an analogous football play, does the ref's hand signals trump the fact that no verbal indication of the play being dead was given?

JasonC23 · 10-13-2005, 09:28 AM

I went to high school with Josh Paul. We were both class of 1993.

Josh Paul is a lifelong die-hard White Sox fan. He was thrilled beyond belief when the Sox drafted him. He was pissed beyond belief when the Sox cut him in 2003 and the Cubs, of all teams, picked him up. I've heard that he called one of the sports talk radio shows around here to bitch about the Cubs picking him up.

None of this is really relevant, other than I feel for the guy, just like I felt for Graffanino in the Boston series. But, while the ump obviously screwed up by not being demonstrative (or being demonstrative without meaning to), Josh screwed up, too, by not applying the tag, which is a standard move by a catcher on any ball even remotely close to the ground on strike 3.

But, honestly, all of this misses the most important point--the real goat is Escobar. He had Joe Crede down 0-2. Joe Crede! That 0-2 pitch to a very limited (to be polite) hitter was perhaps the worst pitch I've seen thrown all year. I think I could have hit it to the wall. Luckily, like the Cubs' A-Gon in '03, apparently no one will remember Escobar, and he's lucky for it.

Butter · 10-13-2005, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solecismic

This wasn't a judgment call on the umpire's part. It doesn't matter whether the ball hit the ground or not. He called him out.

They need to replay this one from the 10th inning on. I'm sure Selig doesn't have the balls to do it, though.

Agreed on all counts.

panerd · 10-13-2005, 09:36 AM

Some people on talk radio are trying to put the blame on the catcher. "You should always tag the runner out on a close call" WTF? So let's deflect the blame from where it belongs, the umpire.

JasonC23 · 10-13-2005, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panerd

Some people on talk radio are trying to put the blame on the catcher. "You should always tag the runner out on a close call" WTF? So let's deflect the blame from where it belongs, the umpire.

Since I posted this above, let me clarify what I'm saying, just in case I get lumped into this. Yes, it's the ump's fault. But it is also Josh Paul's fault. He places the tag on AJ, which is SOP for any catcher on a strike 3 anywhere near the dirt, and it's the 10th inning. And it's also Kelvim Escobar's fault because he had Joe Crede down 0-2 and hung him a cookie.

It's everybody's fault. The ump should take much of the blame, but not 100% of the blame.

Huckleberry · 10-13-2005, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Discussing this with some folks in the office, we're trying to figure out what the rule is in football in a similar situation. Under the assumption that Edding's fist pump was his clear "out" call - and based on the way he called previous swinging 3rd strikes in the game, it was - but there was no verbal indication given, let's compare what happened last night to a hypothetical football scenario.

If the QB throws a borderline forward pass/lateral, and the ref signals the play as incomplete but for some reason no whistle is blown, and at least some of the players see the "incomplete pass" hand signal and let up, thinking the play is dead, but one guy picks up the ball and runs with it (as usually happens, regardless of how obviously dead the play is) and scores a TD, and the ref gives him a TD because no whistle was blown, how is that resolved? I know that normally, the play is whistled dead even if there is a significant delay between the play ending and the whistles blowing, but assume no whistle is blown. Does the TD stand, or is the ref required to retroactively blow the play dead because of his hand signals?

It seems that this is basically what happened last night. I know there is some controversy over whether Eddings' hand signal was "out" versus "strike 3," but he used the same "arm out, fist pump" action on 2 or 3 swinging strikes earlier in the game where there was no question that the ball was cleanly caught by the catcher, so in my mind, he signalled AJ out, regardless of whether he thought he was just calling a 3rd strike. In an analogous football play, does the ref's hand signals trump the fact that no verbal indication of the play being dead was given?

How about a similar situation in baseball? This is the same thing as a first base umpire throwing up his hands for a foul ball call and pointing to foul territory but not screaming foul, then the runner runs to second base anyway, then they let him stay there. They let him stay on second despite the fact that the right fielder gave up on the play because of the foul signal and tossed the ball to a fan in the stands.

MizzouRah · 10-13-2005, 12:11 PM

What an atmostphere, what a game!! GO CARDS!!!!

Oh, and Reggie, I take back anything bad I've said about you this year and last. C'mon man, that's water under the bridge.

Butter · 10-13-2005, 12:30 PM

What's wrong with Reggie Sanders? Despite the 1995 NLCS, I mean.

*angry Reds fan*

Raven Hawk · 10-13-2005, 05:46 PM

Okay, here's my gripe about the whole thing. Why the hell is there a Drop 3rd Strike rule in baseball? What does it add to the game? If somebody swings at a piece of crap pitch, don't they deserve to be out? This has always seemed to me like a House rule that has never served a purpose. Could somebody please explain to me what the purpose of the rule is?

Draft Dodger · 10-13-2005, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raven Hawk

Okay, here's my gripe about the whole thing. Why the hell is there a Drop 3rd Strike rule in baseball? What does it add to the game? If somebody swings at a piece of crap pitch, don't they deserve to be out? This has always seemed to me like a House rule that has never served a purpose. Could somebody please explain to me what the purpose of the rule is?

++

st.cronin · 10-13-2005, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasonC23But it is [i

also[/i] Josh Paul's fault. He places the tag on AJ, which is SOP for any catcher on a strike 3 anywhere near the dirt

I don't think this is true. I don't see catchers routinely tagging batters on third strikes.

I agree the rule is silly, and needs changing. It's a very strange rule.

LoneStarGirl · 10-13-2005, 10:16 PM

Jeeber, how are you liking this game?

sterlingice · 10-13-2005, 10:20 PM

Much better than the last

(And, geez, Lidge just looks sick sometimes even more than Wagner did and I loved watching Billy pitch)

SI

LoneStarGirl · 10-13-2005, 10:25 PM

Isn't he awesome? Instead of a 9 inning game we only have 7 inning games when you put Lidge out there because you know he's shutting it down.

LoneStarGirl · 10-13-2005, 10:27 PM

Reggie Sanders has an injured back? That doesn't look to promising for the Cardinal fans.

LoneStarGirl · 10-13-2005, 10:30 PM

...defensive interference? What the hell was that?

10-12-2005, 10:10 PM	#201
Young Drachma Dark Cloud Join Date: Apr 2001	He's doing a good job. Scioscia with actually just flat out saying they didn't lose on the one play. That's stand up. __________________ Current Dynasty:The Zenith of Professional Basketball Careers (FBPB/FBCB) FBCB / FPB3 Mods

10-12-2005, 10:11 PM	#203
GoldenEagle Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Little Rock, AR	The ball hit the dirt. There is no doubt about that. McCarver was drunk and could not see it and went raving on about it. He had his mitt angeled down and not even a major league catcher can catch that cleanly. Remeber the ball just to hit the dirt. It does not matter if he catches it cleanly. __________________ Xbox 360 Gamer Tag: GoldenEagle014

10-12-2005, 10:12 PM	#204
Young Drachma Dark Cloud Join Date: Apr 2001	I agree that the ball did hit the dirt. Paul tried to totally play it so that he had caught up and well, they almost got that. But AJ was smart, said that he'd seen that happen last year and that was heads up, whether or not it was "fair" __________________ Current Dynasty:The Zenith of Professional Basketball Careers (FBPB/FBCB) FBCB / FPB3 Mods

10-12-2005, 10:13 PM	#205
kingfc22 Head Coach Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Morgan Hill, CA	What?! I'm sorry but I could care less what McCarver says, that ball did not hit the ground. __________________ Fan of SF Giants, 49ers, Sharks, Arsenal

10-12-2005, 10:16 PM	#206
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	I don't think it hit the dirt. But think about it - Paul cleanly had the ball and AJ was right there to be tagged, so if he knew he didn't catch it, his first instinct would be to tag the guy. Instinctual actions are a good indication of what happened. Here's a question, though - does the ump call the hitter out even on a clear wild pitch/swinging strike, or is he just calling a strike? __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

10-12-2005, 10:19 PM	#207
kingfc22 Head Coach Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Morgan Hill, CA	If you see the one angle over AJ's shoulder you see Paul's glove hit the dirt. When he lifts the glove up the ball is squarely in the middle of his glove. No way it could of hit the dirt with him catching it like that. Now if from the same angle he caught the ball like a sno-cone you would be able to see the ball hitting the dirt when he turns his glove hand around. __________________ Fan of SF Giants, 49ers, Sharks, Arsenal

10-12-2005, 10:21 PM	#208
McSweeny College Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somerville, MA	the ump called strike and then he made the fist for the out call terrible

10-12-2005, 10:21 PM	#209
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	It looked to me like Paul caught it cleanly. It also looked to me like the ump didn't even consider whether it was caught cleanly until Prznski ran to first, then figured it MUST have been in the dirt, or else why would he run? Either way, just a totally lame performance by the umps.

10-12-2005, 10:24 PM	#210
GoldenEagle Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Little Rock, AR	I agree that the umpires messed this up. They fell asleep on the call. There is no doubt about that. I just think it would have been very had for the catcher to have caught that ball cleanly. Ksyrup does bring up a good point and in my experience as an umpire catchers always tag if there is any doubt in their mind. __________________ Xbox 360 Gamer Tag: GoldenEagle014

10-12-2005, 10:33 PM	#211
kingfc22 Head Coach Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Morgan Hill, CA	Haha! "Doug ruled the ball was trapped". __________________ Fan of SF Giants, 49ers, Sharks, Arsenal

10-12-2005, 10:33 PM	#212
Cards4ever College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Eagan, MN	Scioscia handled that with total class, good job on his part. __________________ Cardinal Baseball & Gopher Hockey, what else do you need?

10-12-2005, 10:41 PM	#215
jbmagic Pro Starter Join Date: Apr 2004	can the Angels protest the game?

10-12-2005, 10:44 PM	#217
Cards4ever College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Eagan, MN	Scioscia said they couldn't. __________________ Cardinal Baseball & Gopher Hockey, what else do you need?

10-12-2005, 10:47 PM	#218
jbmagic Pro Starter Join Date: Apr 2004	damn the Angels got rob. but the angel catcher should of tag player out or threw to first just in case, when he saw batter take off.

10-12-2005, 11:08 PM	#220
LastWhiteSoxFanStanding College Starter Join Date: Jun 2003	Yes, it was a terrible call. However, listening to John Kruk on baseball tonight he said the umpire says out if the player is out after the strikeout. It seems the umpire didn't do that in this case. He just called the strike signal. The play wasn't over. Its like in football where a play isn't dead until the whistle was blown. Josh Paul should not have assumed the play was over. Was it still a terrible call? You bet.

10-12-2005, 11:31 PM	#225
Logan Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: NYC	Well, technically its a strikeout whether the catcher makes the catch or not. What is the signal from the umpire in that situation (While I've seen the play probably hundreds of times, I don't remember what is considered the "correct" signal for the ump to make). Should he punch a guy out (as if to say "it wasn't tipped")? Should he not make a signal at all (like a play at the plate where the catcher misses the tag, but once he sees the ump hasn't made any signal, realizes that it means the batter didn't touch the plate and can then tag him)? We know one thing: The call itself was bad. Really bad.

10-12-2005, 11:39 PM	#226
GoldenEagle Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Little Rock, AR	The umpire should not verablize on a swinging strike three. My signal for a swing is the same as his. I do it everytime. However, when I know it was a drop third strike, I do not do anything. But it was the ninth inning of the game and the umpire probably got in the habit of doing that. He did do it after every strike. That is his signal for strike. __________________ Xbox 360 Gamer Tag: GoldenEagle014

10-12-2005, 11:42 PM	#228
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	even if it was a wrong call it didn't result in the Yankees winning anything, which means that overall it was an alright call.

10-12-2005, 11:45 PM	#229
MrBug708 Head Coach Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Whittier	The umpire blew it and then he lied about it in his press conference. He said he didnt signal an out, that was his strike three call. But the batter BEFORE was a passed ball and the umpire didn't make the same motion as what the umpire made for AJ.

10-13-2005, 12:55 AM	#231
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	The umpire made the signal for the AJ Pierz to be out. When an umpire signals a ball has not been caught in such a situation, it is apaprently standard for the umpire to say "no catch". He did not say this (he said so in the press conference that he did not). He made the strike call and made the out motion and did not say "no catch". After all of which, Paul tossed the ball onto the field and started walking off of the field with all of the other Angels (having been given plenty of indications from the umpire that the play was dead). Pierz, being crafty, decides (after two steps toward the dugout, mind you) that he's going to run to first because he knew the ball was really close to the ground. This is after the Angels are already walking off of the field. The umpire makes no call until he reaches first, and then "decides" to call him safe. Basically, Pierz fooled the umpire into thinking the ball had hit the ground and ruled him safe. Basically, the umpire reversed his decision when he called him safe, and with his actions, essentially eliminated any but the most remote possibility that the Angels could have gotten Pierz out (the ball by then several feet from any Angels player). __________________ . . I would rather be wrong...Than live in the shadows of your song...My mind is open wide...And now I'm ready to start...You're not sure...You open the door...And step out into the dark...Now I'm ready.

10-13-2005, 01:16 AM	#232
Solecismic Solecismic Software Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Canton, OH	Somebody on another forum said he reviewed a game on mlbtv Eddings called behind the plate early this season. There was a dropped third strike. He did not signal out. I agree that Paul sprinted for the dugout too soon. But the other players on the field reacted to the out call. At that point, it should be a dead ball. This wasn't a judgment call on the umpire's part. It doesn't matter whether the ball hit the ground or not. He called him out. They need to replay this one from the 10th inning on. I'm sure Selig doesn't have the balls to do it, though. Last edited by Solecismic : 10-13-2005 at 01:17 AM.

10-13-2005, 07:34 AM	#234
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	This is pretty funny...another message board I frequent that just happens to be based on a Chicago community of music listeners pointed out that Josh Paul played for both the White Sox and Cubs and is obviously cursed. And then someone pointed out that Matt Clement, Tony Graffinino, and Kyle Farnsworth are all ex-Chicago players who seriously fucked up their teams' chances of winning in the post-season already. The curse - some kind of curse - lives! __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete." Last edited by Ksyrup : 10-13-2005 at 07:35 AM.

10-13-2005, 09:27 AM	#235
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	Discussing this with some folks in the office, we're trying to figure out what the rule is in football in a similar situation. Under the assumption that Edding's fist pump was his clear "out" call - and based on the way he called previous swinging 3rd strikes in the game, it was - but there was no verbal indication given, let's compare what happened last night to a hypothetical football scenario. If the QB throws a borderline forward pass/lateral, and the ref signals the play as incomplete but for some reason no whistle is blown, and at least some of the players see the "incomplete pass" hand signal and let up, thinking the play is dead, but one guy picks up the ball and runs with it (as usually happens, regardless of how obviously dead the play is) and scores a TD, and the ref gives him a TD because no whistle was blown, how is that resolved? I know that normally, the play is whistled dead even if there is a significant delay between the play ending and the whistles blowing, but assume no whistle is blown. Does the TD stand, or is the ref required to retroactively blow the play dead because of his hand signals? It seems that this is basically what happened last night. I know there is some controversy over whether Eddings' hand signal was "out" versus "strike 3," but he used the same "arm out, fist pump" action on 2 or 3 swinging strikes earlier in the game where there was no question that the ball was cleanly caught by the catcher, so in my mind, he signalled AJ out, regardless of whether he thought he was just calling a 3rd strike. In an analogous football play, does the ref's hand signals trump the fact that no verbal indication of the play being dead was given? __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

10-13-2005, 09:28 AM	#236
JasonC23 High School Varsity Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Huntley, IL, USA	I went to high school with Josh Paul. We were both class of 1993. Josh Paul is a lifelong die-hard White Sox fan. He was thrilled beyond belief when the Sox drafted him. He was pissed beyond belief when the Sox cut him in 2003 and the Cubs, of all teams, picked him up. I've heard that he called one of the sports talk radio shows around here to bitch about the Cubs picking him up. None of this is really relevant, other than I feel for the guy, just like I felt for Graffanino in the Boston series. But, while the ump obviously screwed up by not being demonstrative (or being demonstrative without meaning to), Josh screwed up, too, by not applying the tag, which is a standard move by a catcher on any ball even remotely close to the ground on strike 3. But, honestly, all of this misses the most important point--the real goat is Escobar. He had Joe Crede down 0-2. Joe Crede! That 0-2 pitch to a very limited (to be polite) hitter was perhaps the worst pitch I've seen thrown all year. I think I could have hit it to the wall. Luckily, like the Cubs' A-Gon in '03, apparently no one will remember Escobar, and he's lucky for it. __________________ "I'm A god. I'm not THE God...I don't think." Bill Murray, Groundhog Day

10-13-2005, 09:36 AM	#238
panerd Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: St. Louis	Some people on talk radio are trying to put the blame on the catcher. "You should always tag the runner out on a close call" WTF? So let's deflect the blame from where it belongs, the umpire.

10-13-2005, 12:11 PM	#241
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Troy, Mo	What an atmostphere, what a game!! GO CARDS!!!! Oh, and Reggie, I take back anything bad I've said about you this year and last. C'mon man, that's water under the bridge. Last edited by MizzouRah : 10-13-2005 at 12:12 PM.

10-13-2005, 12:30 PM	#242
Butter Coordinator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Dayton, OH	What's wrong with Reggie Sanders? Despite the 1995 NLCS, I mean. angry Reds fan __________________ My listening habits

10-13-2005, 05:46 PM	#243
Raven Hawk College Starter Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Thunderdome	Okay, here's my gripe about the whole thing. Why the hell is there a Drop 3rd Strike rule in baseball? What does it add to the game? If somebody swings at a piece of crap pitch, don't they deserve to be out? This has always seemed to me like a House rule that has never served a purpose. Could somebody please explain to me what the purpose of the rule is? __________________ Owner of The Shreveport Pride in The CFL

10-13-2005, 10:16 PM	#246
LoneStarGirl College Starter Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Little Rock, AR	Jeeber, how are you liking this game?

10-13-2005, 10:20 PM	#247
sterlingice Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Back in Houston!	Much better than the last (And, geez, Lidge just looks sick sometimes even more than Wagner did and I loved watching Billy pitch) SI __________________ Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out! Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!" Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!"

10-13-2005, 10:25 PM	#248
LoneStarGirl College Starter Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Little Rock, AR	Isn't he awesome? Instead of a 9 inning game we only have 7 inning games when you put Lidge out there because you know he's shutting it down.

10-13-2005, 10:27 PM	#249
LoneStarGirl College Starter Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Little Rock, AR	Reggie Sanders has an injured back? That doesn't look to promising for the Cardinal fans.

10-13-2005, 10:30 PM	#250
LoneStarGirl College Starter Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Little Rock, AR	...defensive interference? What the hell was that?

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