NFL Draft thread 2012

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Julio Riddols

The way I see it, Griffin has the size, the work ethic, mental make-up, the arm, the accuracy, and more than enough athleticism to pretty much guarantee that he will eventually be an outstanding QB. The only thing that can stop him is himself. With that in mind, I think if you can get your hands on a guy with never before seen upside that has the work ethic and attitude of a Robert Griffin III, why not do it? Now give him a stable coaching environment and watch him flourish.

I disagree with "he can only stop himself angle".

Seen to many young QB's get destroyed behind porous offensive lines, QB's who have went through so many offensive systems that they simply got lost and QB's who simply didn't fit into a traditional mode.

I see RGIII walking into the worst possible situation in Washington. They sold the farm to get him, they haven't won in a long time, they have little in the way of 'weapons' and a coaching and front office staff most likely sitting on the hottest of hot seats. Shanahan is going on his third QB in three seasons and has already squandered a second and fourth round pick on Donovan McNabb.

He's a good kid walking into a bad situation...

[spleen1015]

I was hoping the Redskins would trade up and get the #2 pick. Now, let's hope RG3 doesn't suck.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

I disagree with "he can only stop himself angle".

Seen to many young QB's get destroyed behind porous offensive lines, QB's who have went through so many offensive systems that they simply got lost and QB's who simply didn't fit into a traditional mode.

I see RGIII walking into the worst possible situation in Washington. They sold the farm to get him, they haven't won in a long time, they have little in the way of 'weapons' and a coaching and front office staff most likely sitting on the hottest of hot seats. Shanahan is going on his third QB in three seasons and has already squandered a second and fourth round pick on Donovan McNabb.

He's a good kid walking into a bad situation...

I agree with all of this. I'll also add they get 6 games a year against the Cowboys, Eagles, and Giants. All very tough opponents who can get after the QB. The smartest thing they could do is have him sit for a year and learn. I think that wold really teach him to not pull the ball bown and run to soon and get smacked a lot his first year. I'm not sure they can do that though given what they gave up for him.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by NorvTurnerOverdrive

fans get what they want. snyder sells tickets. shanacorp. keeps the gig for a few more years at least. winwinwin

I think once it became apparent Manning wasn't going to sign with them, this almost became a must move, especially for Shanahan. But also from a ticket standpoint; they already ripped out a bunch of seats last year, and fans were likely not going to be too pleased with another year of Rex, or Beck, or whatever other stopgap could be thrown in there.

RGIII gives them at least a year of leeway - "hey, we may not win this year, but this is a learning process for a rookie, we're continuing a smart rebuild", etc. etc.

[lungs]

I can't believe the Redskins are giving up on Rex Grossman so easily. The guy has proven to be a Super Bowl caliber QB.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by cougarfreak

I've got a feeling the Redskins and their fans are going to seriously regret this deal. I can't believe Shanahan ok'd this.

There's next to no downside to this for him. If I were him, I would be ecstatic.

[molson]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I don't really have an independent opinion about RG3, but I also don't think it's fair to say that a team is simply screwed without three early draft picks. We tend to give them credit that what they are leaving on the table would be their next Von Miller and Andre Johnson, but it's also certainly possible that what they are missing out on is Vernon Gholston and Darrius Heyward-Bey. Not that RG3 is any sure thing, and not that high draft picks are not worth a lot - but let's not write off the Redskins ability to make a credible team anytime soon just on this account. (There are so many other ways to discredit the redskins anyway)

Ya, that's what I think about this too - so you're trading up this year and then you have to throw in two more 1st round picks that probably won't be in the top 10. The odds are those picks will result in 1 bust, and one solid starter. Big deal. The odds of finding comparable talent in free agency to replace that loss are pretty high. Make 1 or 2 good free agent signings and its basically a wash. And maybe RG3 busts too, but you have a much better chance with him in 3 years than you do with whatever crap you have now.

[Julio Riddols]

I think that with or without draft picks, Washington still signs enough players in FA that they can fill holes that way, especially in a year like this where the FA pool is pretty deep in a lot of positions. They might be getting ready to make a move on Nicks, Finnegan and Jackson and RGIII was the last piece of their offseason puzzle. We all know Snyder loves to spend on name FA players, and now that they become FAs earlier in their career, better players will be out there.

[tucker rocky]

Washington better hope that the heisman curse doesn't hit RG3.

[bulletsponge]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Guys, it's not three first round picks, it's a swap of #2 and #6 plus two extra first round picks.

It's not as much as people are making it out to be.

sooo

the skins gave up 2 future 1sts and a early 2nd to move up 4 spots..


yea they didnt give up much

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by molson

Ya, that's what I think about this too - so you're trading up this year and then you have to throw in two more 1st round picks that probably won't be in the top 10.

Disagree. I think there is a very good chance the Redskins pick at least next year is in the top ten. RG III will be coming off his rookie year, even if they sign free agents you have to think it will take a season to gel, they play in arguably the best division in football. These are their 2012 opponents

Home Games: Dallas Cowboys, New York Giants, Philadelphia Eagles, Atlanta Falcons, Carolina Panthers, Minnesota Vikings, Baltimore Ravens, Cincinnati Bengals.


Road Games: Dallas Cowboys, New York Giants, Philadelphia Eagles, New Orleans Saints, Tampa Bay Buccaneers, St. Louis Rams, Cleveland Browns, Pittsburgh Steelers.

I bolded games that are most likely losses. Now obviously it is the NFL, so they may win a few games they shouldn't, but could also lose games they should win, such as Carolina at home. I look at their schedule and I see 5-11 or 6-10

[Scoobz0202]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I don't really have an independent opinion about RG3, but I also don't think it's fair to say that a team is simply screwed without three early draft picks. We tend to give them credit that what they are leaving on the table would be their next Von Miller and Andre Johnson, but it's also certainly possible that what they are missing out on is Vernon Gholston and Darrius Heyward-Bey. Not that RG3 is any sure thing, and not that high draft picks are not worth a lot - but let's not write off the Redskins ability to make a credible team anytime soon just on this account. (There are so many other ways to discredit the redskins anyway)

I'm not sure how much I like this argument. I do agree with those who have said that it is almost impossible to place a value on a franchise quarterback. If this works out, then great.


But, you're essentially saying that it's 50/50 as to whether you're getting a Von Miller or Darrius Heyward-Bey. But now instead of rolling those dice three times in the first round over the next few years you're essentially rolling them once. Instead of getting three shots at that 50/50 game, you're only getting one shot and if it doesn't hit, then you're fucked.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Scoobz0202

I'm not sure how much I like this argument. I do agree with those who have said that it is almost impossible to place a value on a franchise quarterback. If this works out, then great.

But, you're essentially saying that it's 50/50 as to whether you're getting a Von Miller or Darrius Heyward-Bey. But now instead of rolling those dice three times in the first round over the next few years you're essentially rolling them once. Instead of getting three shots at that 50/50 game, you're only getting one shot and if it doesn't hit, then you're fucked.

Except if you hit on even one of those two extra two 1st round picks (and get say, a quality starting CB or something), it doesn't matter if you don't have a QB. Why not just get that quality CB in free agency, it will be a much surer bet.

[Scoobz0202]

True, but what is the baseline for the quality of QB you need? Could they have traded down to get a Tannehill and kept their draft picks? I know Tannehill doesn't have the ceiling of a RG3, but it lets you stay safe until a better situation comes up, I'd think.

[bhlloy]

If you consistently make the kinds of personnel decisions that Snyder and Cerrato do, I'd say the baseline is a top three QB who can nearly single handedly take a team to sucess. RG3 might be that guy, Tannehill almost certainly isn't.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Julio Riddols

I think that with or without draft picks, Washington still signs enough players in FA that they can fill holes that way, especially in a year like this where the FA pool is pretty deep in a lot of positions. They might be getting ready to make a move on Nicks, Finnegan and Jackson and RGIII was the last piece of their offseason puzzle. We all know Snyder loves to spend on name FA players, and now that they become FAs earlier in their career, better players will be out there.

Finnegan was a phone guest on 980's Sports Reporters last week, which struck me as an odd choice. Makes sense though if he's a likely Skins signee.

[Havok]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Guys, it's not three first round picks, it's a swap of #2 and #6 plus two extra first round picks.

It's not as much as people are making it out to be.

Finally, someone commented on this topic using a little common sense/knowledge of the situation.

As a Redskins fan, this is scary for us. But unless you know nothing about RG3, the sky is the limit for this kid. His ceiling is off the charts. He'd be the number 1 overall pick in most drafts, but unfortunately for him, the best QB prospect in 15 years (some say ever) just so happens to be in this draft.

Once again, i will say that this is a lot for him, basically 2 first rounders and a second. And it's been difficult being a Redskins fan for the 15+ years. But we do have over 40 million in cap space, last year our free agent acquisitions were excellent, and Shanny actually did well drafting last year.

Our first overall pick last year - Ryan Kerrigan, was in the top 3ish for defensive rookie of the year.

Our second round pick - Jenkins, was the STUD of training camp until he had an unfortunate injury and we lost him for the year.

Our Third Round pick - Hankerson, played like a monster in his first game as a starter. 8 catches for like 110 yards, and then hurt his hip in the 4th quarter and was out for the year. (terrible luck for us losing 2 of our top 3 picks for the year due to injury).

Our Fourth Pick -Ray Helu, had a fantatstic rookie season and looks to be a serious all-purpose back.

Even the late rounders did well, (look up Evan Royster).


My point being, we are getting younger, we've purged most of the expensive overrated guys from the roster, and went 5-11 with no QB, no WR's, and a decimated offensive line.

I genuinely believe that Shanny and Bruce Allen are changing the nature of this organization, and while this is Risky, its better then going into next season with Rex Grossman as our QB, or overpaying like hell for Matt Flynn.

(sorry for the long post)

[Havok]

~dola~

FYI - Cerrato has been gone for over 2 years now

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Disagree. I think there is a very good chance the Redskins pick at least next year is in the top ten. RG III will be coming off his rookie year, even if they sign free agents you have to think it will take a season to gel, they play in arguably the best division in football. These are their 2012 opponents

Home Games: Dallas Cowboys, New York Giants, Philadelphia Eagles, Atlanta Falcons, Carolina Panthers, Minnesota Vikings, Baltimore Ravens, Cincinnati Bengals.


Road Games: Dallas Cowboys, New York Giants, Philadelphia Eagles, New Orleans Saints, Tampa Bay Buccaneers, St. Louis Rams, Cleveland Browns, Pittsburgh Steelers.

I bolded games that are most likely losses. Now obviously it is the NFL, so they may win a few games they shouldn't, but could also lose games they should win, such as Carolina at home. I look at their schedule and I see 5-11 or 6-10

Cam in a similar situation with a solid WR put up the best rookie season ever for a QB. Carolina finished 6-10. Anything below 8-8 is a top 12 pick in this year's draft.

[JPhillips]

How does 2012 1st, 2013 1st, and 2014 1st only equal two first round picks?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

How does 2012 1st, 2013 1st, and 2014 1st only equal two first round picks?

because they are getting back St Louis first round pick this year

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

How does 2012 1st, 2013 1st, and 2014 1st only equal two first round picks?

New math.

It's designed to make the Redskins fan believe they didn't overpay for a guy who has yet to take a snap in an NFL game. See, the #6 overall pick in the draft doesn't count. That, they would have used this year on somebody anyway. So in theory, in order to gain the #2 pick & move up 4 spots they only had to give up 3 picks, 2 in the first round & one near the top of the second.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Lathum

because they are getting back St Louis first round pick this year

But they are still giving up three first round picks for one first round pick.

[Passacaglia]

This isn't rocket science, people. It's three picks for one pick, or two picks to move up. Call it whichever you want, they mean the same thing.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

This isn't rocket science, people. It's three picks for one pick, or two picks to move up. Call it whichever you want, they mean the same thing.

It's actually four picks for one. Washington is giving St. Louis four picks in order to get one back.

[Passacaglia]

Okay, fine. It is rocket science.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Havok

As a Redskins fan, this is scary for us. But unless you know nothing about RG3, the sky is the limit for this kid. His ceiling is off the charts. He'd be the number 1 overall pick in most drafts, but unfortunately for him, the best QB prospect in 15 years (some say ever) just so happens to be in this draft.

I wont comment on the rest of your post because I realize it is hope talking however I did want to ask you about this.

While I agree he is a very solid prospect I am not sold on many of the other things you mention. He was mentioned as a possible 1st round pick coming into the year and was barely in the top 10 in November. Is it that he is really that great of a prospect or is it that the Redskins are desperate?

I think if we all step back a bit and look at how him suddenly becoming the surefire #2 pick came about we could certainly question if he is as much of a lock qb prospect as the Redskins seem to think.

In any case I dont think I would have even given up the 3 1st round picks and a second for Luck either.

Apparently the Redskins have so little faith in their scouting department they are choosing the safest and most costly route to find their qb.

[Havok]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I wont comment on the rest of your post because I realize it is hope talking however I did want to ask you about this.

While I agree he is a very solid prospect I am not sold on many of the other things you mention. He was mentioned as a possible 1st round pick coming into the year and was barely in the top 10 in November. Is it that he is really that great of a prospect or is it that the Redskins are desperate?

I think if we all step back a bit and look at how him suddenly becoming the surefire #2 pick came about we could certainly question if he is as much of a lock qb prospect as the Redskins seem to think.

In any case I dont think I would have even given up the 3 1st round picks and a second for Luck either.

Apparently the Redskins have so little faith in their scouting department they are choosing the safest and most costly route to find their qb.

Well you have every right in the world to think they may have given up too much for him. (We can Thank Cleveland for that, as they were matching us pick for pick, and would have matched our final offer had St. Louis not immediately agreed to it.). In fact, I'm worried it was too much as well.

But downplaying RGIII's potential, or blaming it on shitty scouting/desperation is a joke. I can't find a single scout who thinks he isn't going to be an outright stud. Does that mean he will? No. But he is the total package right now - smart as hell, a true class act, crazy athletic (but runs only when nothing else is available), good size, strong arm, and very accurate.

But hey, it could be worse, we could have Ponder as our QB


(and yes, I'm very hopeful. cause if this backfires I'm going to personally dropkick Snydurs 4'11 ass!!!!!!!!!!)

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Havok

But hey, it could be worse, we could have Ponder as our QB

[jbergey22]

Since RGIII brought in a haul of 3 1sts and 1 2nd I wonder what the Colts could have gotten for the Luck pick?

Lets just say the Colts could get 4 1sts and a couple later round picks for the #1 pick in this years draft. Do you do it despite not having a QB and passing on perhaps the greatest QB prospect since Elway?

I think their quickest way back to the playoffs would be to take the trade.

Perhaps I am just a bit bias towards the accumulation of draft picks because I seen the Vikings help build the Cowboys dynasty in the early 90s via the Herschel Walker trade.

[bhlloy]

Yes, if only the Colts already had an all-pro QB on their roster who by all accounts could play another 2-3 years at a very high level. It's a shame they didn't have that.

Seriously, it's a choice I don't envy making. Without trying to slip into hyperbole, I wonder if the Manning/Luck decision might be one of the biggest decisions to shape a franchise in the history of pro sports.

[RedKingGold]

The #2 and #6 overall picks cancel each other out, because the Redskins had that pick tied to Griffin, either way. So, it's two firsts and a second for Griffin.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

The #2 and #6 overall picks cancel each other out, because the Redskins had that pick tied to Griffin, either way. So, it's two firsts and a second for Griffin.

You can't say the first round picks cancel out and then give the Redskins Griffin. It's three firsts and a second for one first.

[QuikSand]

Seriously, we're really having this debate? For days?

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

You can't say the first round picks cancel out and then give the Redskins Griffin. It's three firsts and a second for one first.

Why? Were the Redskins going to land Griffin has an undrafted free agent?

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Seriously, we're really having this debate? For days?

Yes? If it makes you feel better, I'm not wasting many brain cells on this "debate".

[Danny]

Rkg, you make no sense at all. Its three 1sts and a 2nd for griffin

[Chubby]

clearly the Redskins were going to get Griffin at 6 but felt bad for St L so they traded up

[JPhillips]

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Seriously, we're really having this debate? For days?

Has it been three days or four days?

[molson]

Isn't it both trading 3 first round picks for 1, and a "net loss" of 2 picks and with an improved 3rd pick? I think both of those are accurate. (as far as the 1st round pick analysis, obviously there's a 2nd too, but I'm not smart enough to figure that in as well).

I think of it as giving up 2 picks to improve the third. That might not be your preferred semantics, but it's accurate.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by molson

Isn't it both trading 3 first round picks for 1, and a "net loss" of 2 picks and with an improved 3rd pick? I think both of those are accurate.

The Redskins traded three first round picks and a second for the Rams first round pick.

The Redskins gave up two first rounds picks and a second to move up from 6th to 2nd.

Neither statement is incorrect. I could be wrong, but it seems like the second type of description is more commonly used for trades in draft day coverage.

And I also can't believe this debate has been going on for days.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Let's hear from the experts on this scintillating debate!

Peter King from SI, was it two first rounders or three from RGIII?

Originally Posted by Peter King from SI

It's believed that no team has ever traded three first-round picks for a draft choice in NFL history. The Redskins did all of that, plus added a second-rounder to the deal with St. Louis so Washington will be able to choose Baylor quarterback and Heisman Trophy winner Robert Griffin III in the first round of the NFL draft April 26.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by mckerney

And I also can't believe this debate has been going on for days.

Slow news cycle.

[molson]

Originally Posted by mckerney

The Redskins traded three first round picks and a second for the Rams first round pick.

The Redskins gave up two first rounds picks and a second to move up from 6th to 2nd.

Neither statement is incorrect. I could be wrong, but it seems like the second type of description is more commonly used for trades in draft day coverage.

And I also can't believe this debate has been going on for days.

Ya, I think the reason they used the second type for coverage is it gives you slightly more information. It tells you that one of those pick swaps involves picks in the same year, so the net effect is "moving up". It would be unnecessarly vague to just word it the first way.

I have seen much more mundane topics than this on FOFC. We're not doing a lot of world-relevant discussion here or anything. I see the lego thread is up to two pages.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Absolute gold and I had never seen that before

SI

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by molson

I have seen much more mundane topics than this on FOFC. We're not doing a lot of world-relevant discussion here or anything. I see the lego thread is up to two pages.

lol

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Absolute gold and I had never seen that before

SI

I never realized how much Costello reminds me of Nathan Lane.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Absolute gold and I had never seen that before

SI

I love that they used the same routine in two different films.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I never realized how much Costello reminds me of Nathan Lane.

Shouldn't that be the other way around?

SI

[Autumn]

No. Because I just watched this video and it reminded me of Nathan Lane. I've never watched Nathan Lane and remembered Costello.