Which Team Will Sign Michael Vick?

[NewIdentity]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

I don't buy that McNabb isn't okay with it. I think that's just the media creating drama. No way they signed Vick without at least running it past McNabb as a heads up. And no way he thinks Vick is going to threaten him for his job.

This would be the same McNabb that lost his starting job last year for a couple games right?

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by NewIdentity

This would be the same McNabb that lost his starting job last year for a couple games right?

You mean a couple of quarters, right?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Racer

Vick paid his dues so I don't problem with the Eagles giving him a 2nd chance.

Agree with this. Hope he does well and turns his life around.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by NewIdentity

This would be the same McNabb that lost his starting job last year for a couple games right?

Yes. The same one.

Michael Vick signs two-year deal with Philadelphia Eagles - ESPN

"I pretty much lobbied to get him here," McNabb said. "I believe in second chances and what better place to get a second chance than here with this group of guys. ... He's no threat to me, not for Kolb. We had the opportunity to add another weapon to our offense."

[stevew]

"I pretty much lobbied to get him here," McNabb said. "I believe in second chances and what better place to get a second chance than here with this group of guys. ... He's no threat to me, not for Kolb. We aren't dogs. We had the opportunity to add a guy who can use a weapon."

I think this is what he meant to say?

[Philliesfan980]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

I don't buy that McNabb isn't okay with it. I think that's just the media creating drama. No way they signed Vick without at least running it past McNabb as a heads up. And no way he thinks Vick is going to threaten him for his job.

You truly are underestimating the cockiness of Reid/Banner/Laurie. They do what they want, when they want, and where they want.

[Greyroofoo]

I really think they'll just throw Vick in for a couple of trick plays. If he proves he can still play, the Eagles should be able to trade him for a few draft picks.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Good, because I really think there's a distinction between what you said & what I was looking at but darned if I was sure if I was able to spell it out well enough just by typing.



Legally, he definitely has the right to that opportunity under existing law. My argument is that, in particular since we are all part of the extended client base of his current employer, we have a great deal of ability to exert our own bounds of what is or isn't acceptable edit to add AND that we have not only the right but the obligation to do so. I have a great deal of difficulty accepting - as in, I acknowledge that it exists but I have a hard time not being nauseated by that fact - that he's able to walk the streets without being openly shunned as someone people would not be willing to associate with much less that all he has to do is run 30 feet in the right situation & he'll get mass adulation (however fleeting).

I make no bones about it: I'd like for him to have been hung, drawn, and quartered on the public square and then the pieces distributed to pig farms in four corners of the globe to be mixed with not their swill but with their excrement and disposed of according to prevailing local custom. That's still far too good for him afaic but it's as close to appropriate as I can come up with on this mortal coil.

But even if that's a stronger opinion than a lot of people have, there's still a big gap between that and having him been accepted as a member of society as opposed to a pariah. The fact that at least the latter doesn't happen saddens me, it bewilders me, and it's just one more brick in the wall of mixed disgust & despair I feel about humanity in general.

It is all about the almighty dollar. Money talks, and you know the rest. It is unfortunate but true. Vick is a piece of shit, but morals get thrown out the window when a profit is to be made.

[larrymcg421]

Imagine if you were walking down the street, and in an alley, you saw some guy and his two friends beating, strangling, hanging, and electrocuting dogs. Would you be defending this person? Would you think this person deserves to be a member of the National Football League?

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Racer

Vick paid his dues so I don't problem with the Eagles giving him a 2nd chance. If not for the potential distraction, I'm would have been okay with the Colts signing him as a gadget player.

I guess I don't understand how people can say "he paid his dues" with a straight face. There would be nothing short of him being hung and electrocuted that in my mind would equate to Vick paying his dues. While it is true that nothing can undo the atrocities he did to those dogs, a year and a half in prison and some lost money hardly seems like a punishment that fits the crime. As MJ4H alluded to, faith in humanity is becoming very shaky. I also would be very surprised if Vick feels any remorse towards what he did. You don't kill animals in that fashion and later feel bad about it.

But what do I know, just a normal person with morals.

[RomaGoth]

Dola

I like this comment:

Phil Sheridan, Philadelphia Inquirer: “... it is going to be very difficult to watch this guy without thinking about those dead and tormented dogs. There will be protests, and there should be. There will be verbal abuse from fans, and there should be. As much as Vick has the right to get on with his life, the rest of us have the right to remind him of what he did.”

[Young Drachma]

It'll be interesting to see how conservative Andy Reid plans to use Vick. But he said something (Reid) did in his interview about he's seen first hand about second chances or whatever and lest people forget, one of his kids was caught with drugs or something like that a few years back.

I think that this probably played a factor in his being down for the whole second chance angle, more than folks who might just be focused solely on the other aspects.

It's a boom bust proposition and it's no accident that Philly has a significant black population, which I'm sure wasn't lost on Lurie who knew how this helped Vick in Atlanta become and stay popular in spite of his issues.

And I'm guess they figured, if he's gonna try to make it work anyplace, we might as well be the ones to see if can he can turn it around here first.

Should be interesting what they do to their playbook to accommodate Vick, but I'm guessing he'll probably do whatever they want him to, to ensure it works. Should make NFC East games even more interesting than normal.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Imagine if you were walking down the street, and in an alley, you saw some guy and his two friends beating, strangling, hanging, and electrocuting dogs. Would you be defending this person? Would you think this person deserves to be a member of the National Football League?

Imagine if I saw a guy beating the hell out of his girlfriend and sending her to the hospital, would I still think he deserved to play? Imagine if I saw a guy drive drunk and take the life of someones mom and wife. Would I still think he deserved to play in the NFL? Imagine if I saw a guy go to a strip club and cause a shootout that makes a young husband paralyzed for the rest of his life? What then?

All of these things show a blatant disregard for humanity in general. All of these things have happened and the guys who did it are allowed to play in the league. How do I draw the line at this point? Vick is a dirtbag, but do you honestly think he's the only NFL guy who was involved in dogfighting? From a personal, moral standpoint, do you despise Clinton Portis? He said "it's only dogs" I think there are probably a handful of guys on each team that feel the way he does.

From a moral standpoint, I'm just as disgusted with Brandon Marshall or Leonard Little as I am Michael Vick. Punching a women? Killing a women while your drunk out of your mind and then getting arrested for another DUI after that? How F'n pathetic can you get?

And there is my moral dilemma. How do I separate Vick from many of the other scumbags who play the sports I love? If I took a pure moral stand on Vick, then I have to do it on all of the other guys. Am I not a Broncos fan this year because Brandon Marshall will catch passes this year? (Ok, so he has Kyle Orton throwing him the ball, I don't have to worry about to many catches, but that's another topic)

I either stop watching sports or I separate sports from reality. In my moral compass, I can't hold Vick to a standard I don't hold players on virtually every team to. Again, maybe my moral compass is off kilter, that's for you to decide.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

I guess I don't understand how people can say "he paid his dues" with a straight face. There would be nothing short of him being hung and electrocuted that in my mind would equate to Vick paying his dues. While it is true that nothing can undo the atrocities he did to those dogs, a year and a half in prison and some lost money hardly seems like a punishment that fits the crime. As MJ4H alluded to, faith in humanity is becoming very shaky. I also would be very surprised if Vick feels any remorse towards what he did. You don't kill animals in that fashion and later feel bad about it.

But what do I know, just a normal person with morals.

Don't get mad a Vick, be mad at the system.

FWIW I don't disagree with alot of what you are saying. Watching his press conference this morning he obviously was just going through the motions.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

There's likely a domestic abuser, rapist, and/or killer on every NFL team. Donte Stallworth will play in the NFL again and he actually killed a human being.

What Stallworth did was horrible. What Vick did was horrible.

The difference: Vick did it on purpose.

[larrymcg421]

Many of the examples being used in defense of Vick are stupid one time mistakes that deserve to be heavily punished (in Marshall's case the accuser dropped the charges), and I've never argued otherwise. What Vick did was premeditated for a 5 year period. This wasn't a mistake. It was an intentional action he took to kill and torture animals for 5 years.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Imagine if I saw a guy beating the hell out of his girlfriend and sending her to the hospital, would I still think he deserved to play? Imagine if I saw a guy drive drunk and take the life of someones mom and wife. Would I still think he deserved to play in the NFL? Imagine if I saw a guy go to a strip club and cause a shootout that makes a young husband paralyzed for the rest of his life? What then?

All of these things show a blatant disregard for humanity in general. All of these things have happened and the guys who did it are allowed to play in the league. How do I draw the line at this point? Vick is a dirtbag, but do you honestly think he's the only NFL guy who was involved in dogfighting? From a personal, moral standpoint, do you despise Clinton Portis? He said "it's only dogs" I think there are probably a handful of guys on each team that feel the way he does.

From a moral standpoint, I'm just as disgusted with Brandon Marshall or Leonard Little as I am Michael Vick. Punching a women? Killing a women while your drunk out of your mind and then getting arrested for another DUI after that? How F'n pathetic can you get?

And there is my moral dilemma. How do I separate Vick from many of the other scumbags who play the sports I love? If I took a pure moral stand on Vick, then I have to do it on all of the other guys. Am I not a Broncos fan this year because Brandon Marshall will catch passes this year? (Ok, so he has Kyle Orton throwing him the ball, I don't have to worry about to many catches, but that's another topic)

I either stop watching sports or I separate sports from reality. In my moral compass, I can't hold Vick to a standard I don't hold players on virtually every team to. Again, maybe my moral compass is off kilter, that's for you to decide.

I like this post. I hate commenting on Vick stuff, but if I were to hate teams or sports because of idiot players, I'd have no one to root for. I just try to make note of players that seem like genuine good people, and more often than not, those become my favourite players.

[EagleFan]

This was RATHER unexpected. Quite confusing to be honest as I think there are more pressing needs. The only thing that I think this tells us is that the Eagles are going wildcat at some point this season.

[TroyF]

Roma,

Little made the choice to get into that car drunk. What followed doesn't matter.

Larry,

This is Marshall's second major case of domestic violence in two years. I don't give a damn if the first charge was dropped, when you listen to the cell phone call and here her screaming with him pounding on the glass, it's clearly disgusting.

And I'm sorry, most of these things aren't one time mistakes. Do you really believe this girl is the first Marshall ever hit? Do you think the only two times in his life Little drove drunk he got caught? Do you think PacMan was a choir boy outside of his 25 arrests? Do you think there aren't guys in the league on teams you cheer for right now who aren't engaged in wreckless and unlawful behavior?

I know you aren't that naive. What you are doing is justifying why you think Vick is "worse" than all of those other guys. That's fine, but I don't draw the line. I think what those other guys did is every bit as disgusting as what Vick did.

I gave up thinking I was cheering for true heroes a long, long time ago. Part of the reason is because of what you are doing right now. I couldn't find a way to keep a vengeance scorecard with all the disgust I have for certain players.

FYI - My morality scale probably is stronger than 90% of anyone's here. I have little tolerance for adulterers, racists, people who mistreat animals/women/children, drunk drivers, etc. As I said earlier, the problem I have is that if I used my scale on athletes, I'd have to stop watching sports. (and nothing is sacred here, horse tracks sell lousy horses to slaughterhouses, greyhounds have been slaughtered en mass for losing, there isn't anything close to a clean sport with little angels that exists. I use my scale on athletes, actors, musicians, comedians, etc, I'm going to gave to give up a good portion of the things I really like)

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Roma,

Little made the choice to get into that car drunk. What followed doesn't matter.

Larry,

This is Marshall's second major case of domestic violence in two years. I don't give a damn if the first charge was dropped, when you listen to the cell phone call and here her screaming with him pounding on the glass, it's clearly disgusting.

And I'm sorry, most of these things aren't one time mistakes. Do you really believe this girl is the first Marshall ever hit? Do you think the only two times in his life Little drove drunk he got caught? Do you think PacMan was a choir boy outside of his 25 arrests? Do you think there aren't guys in the league on teams you cheer for right now who aren't engaged in wreckless and unlawful behavior?

I know you aren't that naive. What you are doing is justifying why you think Vick is "worse" than all of those other guys. That's fine, but I don't draw the line. I think what those other guys did is every bit as disgusting as what Vick did.

I gave up thinking I was cheering for true heroes a long, long time ago. Part of the reason is because of what you are doing right now. I couldn't find a way to keep a vengeance scorecard with all the disgust I have for certain players.

FYI - My morality scale probably is stronger than 90% of anyone's here. I have little tolerance for adulterers, racists, people who mistreat animals/women/children, drunk drivers, etc. As I said earlier, the problem I have is that if I used my scale on athletes, I'd have to stop watching sports. (and nothing is sacred here, horse tracks sell lousy horses to slaughterhouses, greyhounds have been slaughtered en mass for losing, there isn't anything close to a clean sport with little angels that exists. I use my scale on athletes, actors, musicians, comedians, etc, I'm going to gave to give up a good portion of the things I really like)

Look, I would be fully happy with all of the above people being kicked out of the league as well, or dropped from their teams, or whatever. I have no love for the actions taken by any of them. But what we're talking about right now is Vick. He tortured animals for fun. he did this for 5 years. You could argue that other people did this and other people did that, but that doesn't change what Vick did, and I feel that someone who abuses animals for fun does not deserve to play in the NFL.

And it's not about trying to "justify" why I hate Vick. I was one of Vick's staunchest defenders on these boards, even defending the value of his play AFTER the dogfighting story broke. I am simply particularly appalled by what he did and frustrated that so many people don't think it's that bad. Yes, I think what Vick did is worse than Little or Stallworth (of the examples I've seen, I think only Marshalls rises to Vick's level), but that doesn't mean I in any way condone their behavior or would want them on my team.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Meanwhile tickets for the Falcons-Eagles game are going faster than normal, with 300 sold on StubHub between 8a-9a this morning and the Falcons confirming that they've also seen an uptick in sales for that game since the announcement.
Tickets to Vick's Eagles debut in Atlanta selling fast*| ajc.com

Of course the NFL shop already has the jersey for sale.

And in other news, society swirls a little deeper in the toilet bowl.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Roma,

Little made the choice to get into that car drunk. What followed doesn't matter.

Larry,

This is Marshall's second major case of domestic violence in two years. I don't give a damn if the first charge was dropped, when you listen to the cell phone call and here her screaming with him pounding on the glass, it's clearly disgusting.

And I'm sorry, most of these things aren't one time mistakes. Do you really believe this girl is the first Marshall ever hit? Do you think the only two times in his life Little drove drunk he got caught? Do you think PacMan was a choir boy outside of his 25 arrests? Do you think there aren't guys in the league on teams you cheer for right now who aren't engaged in wreckless and unlawful behavior?

I know you aren't that naive. What you are doing is justifying why you think Vick is "worse" than all of those other guys. That's fine, but I don't draw the line. I think what those other guys did is every bit as disgusting as what Vick did.

I gave up thinking I was cheering for true heroes a long, long time ago. Part of the reason is because of what you are doing right now. I couldn't find a way to keep a vengeance scorecard with all the disgust I have for certain players.

FYI - My morality scale probably is stronger than 90% of anyone's here. I have little tolerance for adulterers, racists, people who mistreat animals/women/children, drunk drivers, etc. As I said earlier, the problem I have is that if I used my scale on athletes, I'd have to stop watching sports. (and nothing is sacred here, horse tracks sell lousy horses to slaughterhouses, greyhounds have been slaughtered en mass for losing, there isn't anything close to a clean sport with little angels that exists. I use my scale on athletes, actors, musicians, comedians, etc, I'm going to gave to give up a good portion of the things I really like)

No offense, but it sounds like you are just using a selective morality scale. Fine with me, who am I to judge? But what if you found out that your brother, or sister, or some other relative or close friend was involved with dog fighting? How would you feel then?

Sorry, I can't just turn off morality so I can enjoy some NFL action on Sunday. As Larry said, we do not condone what the others you mentioned have done or what others are still doing.

I have faith that all of them shall be judged and pay for their actions in some fashion someday.

[ISiddiqui]

If y'all really feel that strongly, you could just not watch the NFL.

[larrymcg421]

"If you don't like America, get the hell out" logic.

Love it.

[cyril]

to me, what separates Vick from these other convicted players is that he fits the following in all aspects.

a person brings a TREMENDOUS amount of PAIN to a HELPLESS, MENTALLY-CONSCIOUS being for FUN with LITTLE RISK to him/herself.

This, I think, represents true evil. And this mentality transcends. the Klan, Hitler, Henry VIII, to name a few, all fit such profile.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by cyril

to me, what separates Vick from these other convicted players is that he fits the following in all aspects.

a person brings a TREMENDOUS amount of PAIN to a HELPLESS, MENTALLY-CONSCIOUS being for FUN with LITTLE RISK to him/herself.

This, I think, represents true evil. And this mentality transcends. the Klan, Hitler, Henry VIII, to name a few, all fit such profile.

While I can't stand Vick I really couldn't let this one go. We are now comparing Vick to Hitler? Are you serious? Can we reach a bit farther?

Vick - crime against animals
Others - crime against human beings

Not defending what he did but there is still a gap between the two, a rather large gap.

I can't see myself cheering for him at this point unless I really feel that he has changed for the better but only he knows that.

I guess it could be much worse though, they could be like the Steelers and have a rapist for a quarterback.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

While I can't stand Vick I really couldn't let this one go. We are now comparing Vick to Hitler? Are you serious? Can we reach a bit farther?

Vick - crime against animals
Others - crime against human beings

Not defending what he did but there is still a gap between the two, a rather large gap.

I can't see myself cheering for him at this point unless I really feel that he has changed for the better but only he knows that.

I guess it could be much worse though, they could be like the Steelers and have a rapist for a quarterback.

Don't think he was comparing Vick to Hitler, more of a same mentality of cruelness type of thing.

Nice comment about the Steelers, how about you wait and see what happens in court first, k?

[k0ruptr]

There are people who think Vick should get the death penalty for what he did.

There are people who think the punishment wasn't enough

There are people who think he should be banned permanently from the NFL

There are people who who think many many things.

I think he fucked up, I think he knows it. I HOPE he feels remorseful, but I'm not going to assume , or judge him yet, because I don't know Michael Vick personally.

I hope someday he helps out the humane society, and I hope he does a lot of positive things with his life now.

What I do know is I just want to see him get his life back on track. I enjoyed watching him on the football field and I as the fan want a chance to watch him on the football field again. There aren't very many people with the talent he has athletically. I guess thats why I want to root for him to do well.

[cyril]

I was referring to the similar mentality, the degree/criminality of that of Vick and that of Hitler are of course at different scale, but they share the same root. If left unchecked and if granted power, who knows how such that mentality could develop into?

I am sure Hitler did not start out as a five-year-old gassing Jews either.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

What I do know is I just want to see him get his life back on track. I enjoyed watching him on the football field and I as the fan want a chance to watch him on the football field again.

When was this sorry bastard ever "on track"?

He's been a POS for years, seems quite likely for his whole life. If he had won/if he wins the Super Bowl he's still the same sick POS that he is if he's rotting in prison.

Keep in mind, I was always one of the strongest advocates here of what Vick meant to the Falcons. He's the single most electrifying football player I've ever watched, hands down, nobody else even comes close in my mind. He's the only player in my entire life that I've ever turned on a football game solely to see if he did something exciting on the field. Ever.

But his ability on the field, even at it's absolute best, does not = his life being on track. It's been FUBAR for at the least a long damned time, you don't just suddenly turn into the level of evil he represents overnight.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

There are people who think Vick should get the death penalty for what he did.

There are people who think the punishment wasn't enough

There are people who think he should be banned permanently from the NFL

There are people who who think many many things.

I think he fucked up, I think he knows it. I HOPE he feels remorseful, but I'm not going to assume , or judge him yet, because I don't know Michael Vick personally.

I hope someday he helps out the humane society, and I hope he does a lot of positive things with his life now.

What I do know is I just want to see him get his life back on track. I enjoyed watching him on the football field and I as the fan want a chance to watch him on the football field again. There aren't very many people with the talent he has athletically. I guess thats why I want to root for him to do well.

No offense intended, k0ruptr, but this is exactly why the world is so fucked up. Too many people willing to brush things aside for instant gratification. Who cares if he killed dogs for fun, why, he is a great football player and that is what matters. Fuck that. You are probably a great person, but on this subject I disagree with you.

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Keep in mind, I was always one of the strongest advocates here of what Vick meant to the Falcons. He's the single most electrifying football player I've ever watched, hands down, nobody else even comes close in my mind. He's the only player in my entire life that I've ever turned on a football game solely to see if he did something exciting on the field. Ever.

Barry Sanders. Never saw anyone make the moves he made. Especially with less talent around him.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

No offense intended, k0ruptr, but this is exactly why the world is so fucked up. Too many people willing to brush things aside for instant gratification. Who cares if he killed dogs for fun, why, he is a great football player and that is what matters. Fuck that. .

On the one hand, I agree that it's become uncommon to rare for people to put their foot down about their beliefs. But on the other hand, if we decided to draw the line and make a list of things that are outrageous and that we should not ignore, as a society, or even as FOFC, we'd come up with wildly varying lists that nobody could agree on. I can think for ten seconds and come up with several things that would be the #1 top priority for some people here and others would think is total shit. So maybe this is how we get by as a large pluralistic society. It allows someone to be famous and wealthy and a complete shit, but it also means we have an open forum of ideas where people are allowed to believe what they want. In the end the differneces we make in the world are going to be local, not on the stage of the NFL.

[k0ruptr]

No offense taken at all. I just enjoyed watching him. I think maybe I have different views on these things than most people as I have been around a ton of people that have lead fucked up lives, and done things 10 times worse than anything Vick ever did. I'm not going to get into it, but I think this may have something to do with me thinking the way I am.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by cyril

I was referring to the similar mentality, the degree/criminality of that of Vick and that of Hitler are of course at different scale, but they share the same root. If left unchecked and if granted power, who knows how such that mentality could develop into?

I am sure Hitler did not start out as a five-year-old gassing Jews either.

It is not the same mentality. Actually Hitler loved his dog and dogs in general. Does that mean any animal lover may end up killing millions in an attempt to rule the world?

Hitler saw other races as lower forms of life than animals. That is where the problem lies, in treating other humans in that manner.

I am not going to defend what Vick did but he deserves a chance to try to straighten out his life just like anyone else does.



Now for Vick being the most exciting player ever, I could not disagree more. Barry Sanders!!!!

[k0ruptr]

Dola, It's also the great thing about living where we live, we are allowed to have different opinions, and I'm thankful for that.

[k0ruptr]

I also agree on Barry being the most exciting ever. Vick is probably 2nd that I ever got to see in my lifetime.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

Dola, It's also the great thing about living where we live, we are allowed to have different opinions, and I'm thankful for that.

Exactly. None of it is personal attacks, at least for me. You can disagree with someone without attributing that to them personally.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Autumn

On the one hand, I agree that it's become uncommon to rare for people to put their foot down about their beliefs. But on the other hand, if we decided to draw the line and make a list of things that are outrageous and that we should not ignore, as a society, or even as FOFC, we'd come up with wildly varying lists that nobody could agree on. I can think for ten seconds and come up with several things that would be the #1 top priority for some people here and others would think is total shit. So maybe this is how we get by as a large pluralistic society. It allows someone to be famous and wealthy and a complete shit, but it also means we have an open forum of ideas where people are allowed to believe what they want. In the end the differneces we make in the world are going to be local, not on the stage of the NFL.

Very well said.

Originally Posted by EagleFan

It is not the same mentality. Actually Hitler loved his dog and dogs in general. Does that mean any animal lover may end up killing millions in an attempt to rule the world?

The mentality is the same regarding treatment of a living being. Hitler may have loved dogs, but his treatment of people pretty much made that irrelevant. I would argue the same for Vick. Even if he started a charity for children, his treatment of animals will always overshadow anything else he does. Can he change? Of course, but I really don't see it happening.

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Now for Vick being the most exciting player ever, I could not disagree more. Barry Sanders!!!!

Yes!!!

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

Dola, It's also the great thing about living where we live, we are allowed to have different opinions, and I'm thankful for that.

Nicely said.

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

I also agree on Barry being the most exciting ever. Vick is probably 2nd that I ever got to see in my lifetime.

Yes!!! Barry Sanders FTW.

I am thankful we can disagree on things and still have civil conversation.

[k0ruptr]

Just be careful, because different opinions aren't allowed in the political threads, or any thread putting the 360 up against the ps3

lol.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Autumn

In the end the differneces we make in the world are going to be local, not on the stage of the NFL.

Which we be a lot more relevant if the "local" operated in a vacuum uninfluenced by the larger scale.

But here's a POS being both well paid & glorified on a larger scale than anything "local" ... and being seen in every "local" in both color & HD. And that will have a hell of a lot more impact on more people overall than anything either of us are ever likely to do "locally".

Point being, the problem here IS local ... in every place where he's treated as a welcome member of society.

[cyril]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

It is not the same mentality. Actually Hitler loved his dog and dogs in general. Does that mean any animal lover may end up killing millions in an attempt to rule the world?

You misunderstood what I was trying to say. What you referred to is a logical fallacy.

If you don't see the similarities in the very basic motives of these different hideous crimes, then obviously we think very differently. Not saying you are wrong though, just different.

OK, I will stop referring to Hitler, I don't want this thread to sidetrack into a totally different realm. Let me think of another example, like Chairman Mao and his Cultural Revolution.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by cyril

You misunderstood what I was trying to say. What you referred to is a logical fallacy.

If you don't see the similarities in the very basic motives of these different hideous crimes, then obviously we think very differently. Not saying you are wrong though, just different.

OK, I will stop referring to Hitler, I don't want this thread to sidetrack into a totally different realm. Let me think of another example, like Chairman Mao and his Cultural Revolution.

For what it's worth, your description was probably a little too specific. For example, there's not really any evidence that Hitler caused anybody pain for *fun*. What you described is specifically psychopathic (? maybe). But I think your point is clear, whether it's a dog or a person or whatever it's a bad sign.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Which we be a lot more relevant if the "local" operated in a vacuum uninfluenced by the larger scale.

But here's a POS being both well paid & glorified on a larger scale than anything "local" ... and being seen in every "local" in both color & HD. And that will have a hell of a lot more impact on more people overall than anything either of us are ever likely to do "locally".

Point being, the problem here IS local ... in every place where he's treated as a welcome member of society.

Certainly they influence each other. But other than boycotting Vick and the NFL, etc, there's little each one of us can do at that scale. Whereas the influence runs both ways. The influence you have on your friends and neighbors by making a stand about Vick increases the chances that they'll take similar stands, and therefore increases the impact on the NFL.

I think the impact of people we know and care about end up having a bigger impact than the people we see on TV, though both have very large effects.

My point is just that on the naitonal scale there's a million people who don't give a shit about dogs and want to watch football. Half of them may be completely outraged at you about something you don't care about that they find evil and outrageous. It's not a level at which we can make very hard stands and still remain a society that allows difference of opinion.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Autumn

It's not a level at which we can make very hard stands and still remain a society that allows difference of opinion.

Pretty overrated IMO, and is a component of what brings us closer to the likely inevitable decline of this particular civilization.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Pretty overrated IMO, and is a component of what brings us closer to the likely inevitable decline of this particular civilization.

I was pretty sure that was how you felt. But given the fact that I don't believe in any particular religion or moral philosophy I'm going to stick with it, rather than have someone else's pushed on me.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

No offense, but it sounds like you are just using a selective morality scale. Fine with me, who am I to judge? But what if you found out that your brother, or sister, or some other relative or close friend was involved with dog fighting? How would you feel then?

Sorry, I can't just turn off morality so I can enjoy some NFL action on Sunday. As Larry said, we do not condone what the others you mentioned have done or what others are still doing.

I have faith that all of them shall be judged and pay for their actions in some fashion someday.

That's just it. I'm not using a selective morality games. I realize I MUST turn off my morality scale or I won't be able to enjoy NFL football on Sunday's. Or college football on Saturdays. Or NBA basketball. Or MLB baseball. Or movies. Or music.

You get the idea? The reality is that a lot of these guys are scummy human beings who I wouldn't let in my front door.

Since April of 2008, over 60 NFL players have been arrested. While some of it has been minor crap, a lot of it has been series. We are talking DUI's, battery charges, beating their girlfriends and wives, weapons charges, etc. We also aren't talking about one team or only scrub players. The guy who made the biggest play in last years Super Bowl broke his girlfriends cell phone in half when she tried to call 911 and then hit her. This happened in 2008 of course and most people forgot about it. My guess is 85% of the viewing audience had zero idea the guy they were cheering for thought smacking a women upside the head was a good idea.

No, I don't have a selective morality scale. I guess that's not quite right. I have selective times I use my morality scale. The teams I cheer for and leagues I watch have some bad people in them. Evil people. My scale for the NFL is simple: Do whatever legal time you have to do, do whatever time Goodell tells you to do and you can come back. I don't see Vick as different than Leonard Little, PacMan Jones or the guy who beats his girlfriend upside the head because dinner wasn't cooked right. They are all jack asses who I wouldn't want near me or my family. (or my dogs) But I know what my options are. I either deal with those guys playing in the league (including teams I cheer for) or I stop watching sports.

Again, if anyone wants to hammer me, that's the thing they should do it on. I know many of the asses I cheer for are scum of the earth, yet I do so anyway. You want your screwed up paradox, there you go.

Lastly, I don't want to make this a religious discussion, but if you are religious that's all the more reason to forgive. Love the sinner, hate the sin. Let the entity who judges decide the fate, it's not your job.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Let the entity who judges decide the fate, it's not your job.

Meanwhile numerous faiths, including Christianity, Judaism, and B'hai also talk about the power of discernment, boiled down to the ability to weed out truth from fiction.

[NewIdentity]

Originally Posted by NewIdentity

LOL, I love the people that are now picking the Eagles to sign Vick in the pole!


I think when Vick was signed 1 person had picked Vick; now 3 people think Vick will be signed by the Eagles.

The Eagles are now up to 9 vote! Jesus people.

What kind of person would come here and vote for which team Vick would sign with after Vick had already signed? I guess it is probably all those people that are walking around with brand new Steeler shirts I see.

[JonInMiddleGA]

""Hide Your Beagles, Vick's An Eagle"

Heh.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by NewIdentity

The Eagles are now up to 9 vote! Jesus people.

What kind of person would come here and vote for which team Vick would sign with after Vick had already signed? I guess it is probably all those people that are walking around with brand new Steeler shirts I see.

Smarty pants would be my guess.

Wait, why is that like buying a new Steelers shirt? Are people not allowed to become fans of the Steelers anymore?