Alright boyz, here we go!!! Eastside Hockey Manager 2007 First Impressions Thread!

[Galaril]

SI needs to get a good book on system development methodology and read the chapter related to version control. They always seem to screw this up and it is overly confusing.

[JonInMiddleGA]

A league with points figured wrong & a PM/penalty bug. While I applaud the (apparent) quick patch to repair these problems, am I the only person wondering how the heck the game got out to the public with those things unnoticed / unresolved in the first place?

[Hurst2112]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

A league with points figured wrong & a PM/penalty bug. While I applaud the (apparent) quick patch to repair these problems, am I the only person wondering how the heck the game got out to the public with those things unnoticed / unresolved in the first place?

you never bought FPS Football Pro 99 did you.

It's just frustrating that I can't get the 2nd patch, update or revision...whatever they WANT to call it.

[jbmagic]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

A league with points figured wrong & a PM/penalty bug. While I applaud the (apparent) quick patch to repair these problems, am I the only person wondering how the heck the game got out to the public with those things unnoticed / unresolved in the first place?

See OOTP 2006

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Hurst2112

you never bought FPS Football Pro 99 did you.

Sadly enough, yes I did.

But, given how that turned out, you'd think that companies would learn a lesson from it.

[Hurst2112]

im not about to throw the SI guys under the bus. They have proven themselves with the FM/EHM titles IMO.

I just don't get the obscure mini-fixes with this release.

[scooter]

Originally Posted by Hurst2112

It's just frustrating that I can't get the 2nd patch, update or revision...whatever they WANT to call it.

You can. Just go to the SI forums. The first sticky thread (in the NHLEHM forum) is something like "Version 3.0.1 out now *Updated Sept 26*". Scroll down the thread to posts from Marc on today's date. There is one with the link for the update. It just a "manual" update instead of your auto-update within the game.

[Hurst2112]

so its the same version number? 3.0.1?

when i download it, the number is the same as well. 458 or whatever.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Hurst2112

so its the same version number? 3.0.1?

when i download it, the number is the same as well. 458 or whatever.

Yeah, it is the same exe not anything updated from that link.

[laser]

Does the patch also work for the demo?

[Draft Dodger]

there have been two patches, the 2nd to fix some stuff in the first. but I was extremely confused about what version is what, so I'm just holding off until they make it a bit clearer.

[scooter]

Actually the link I told you about above is a different patch. It changes the version number of the .exe file. On you computer, find the NHLEHM .exe file, right click on it and go to the Version tab. At the top it will say "File Version:". Does yours say 3.0.1.5242? (I'm not sure what the old one was, something like 3.0.1.5020)

The file that they have has the same name, but it IS a different file.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

there have been two patches, the 2nd to fix some stuff in the first. but I was extremely confused about what version is what, so I'm just holding off until they make it a bit clearer.

Marc posted that the check for updates from ingame should now work. The direct links are also posted in the thread at SI in the first post.

http://community.sigames.com/eve/for...752#8572029752

I updated yesterday using the rapidshare link and it did work though there was some confusion since there was an error, I believe, in the check for update routine ( due to patch numbering?, not sure on this).

Result of updating...

game before updating 30 penalties 64 minutes in the box.

two games after..

11 penalties \ 30 minutes
13 penaltiesn \ 40 minutes

[Oilers9911]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

A league with points figured wrong & a PM/penalty bug. While I applaud the (apparent) quick patch to repair these problems, am I the only person wondering how the heck the game got out to the public with those things unnoticed / unresolved in the first place?

I always wonder how SO MANY games get out into the public with so many unresolved problems.

[Marc Vaughan]

I always wonder how SO MANY games get out into the public with so many unresolved problems.

Simply put we do our utmost to ensure the game are as bug free and flawless as possible - we use standard software engineering techniques, very organised testing etc. .... but simply put with over a million lines of code in most of our titles its virtually impossible for them to be 100% tested and perfect upon release.

For an example of this consider FM - it has 50 odd leagues in it, consider the number of permutations you can have upon starting the game and selecting the leagues:

50x49x48x47x46x45.....

We don't even have enough time to START the game in every possible permutation let alone test their individual vagrancies, we do the best we can and use sensible techniques to try and ensure sanity but sometimes unfortunately its not enough.

I realise this isn't what you'd prefer to hear but its honest and imho thats the main thing.

As always we'll do our utmost to support EHM and I hope you all enjoy the game.

[Draft Dodger]

very worth pointing out that SI has released two patches within 5 days of the release of the game (and they are still working on more). say what you want about a game coming out that has some issues, but I, for one, am appreciative of the quick attempt to fix stuff.

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

very worth pointing out that SI has released two patches within 5 days of the release of the game (and they are still working on more). say what you want about a game coming out that has some issues, but I, for one, am appreciative of the quick attempt to fix stuff.

"

[Hurst2112]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

"

first line of post #206

[Fouts]

Any news on them fixing the points in the CHL standings? It bugs me everytime I play now, and its getting close to the playoffs.

[Galaril]

I thought I would mention that the tips that go by very, very quickly at start are quite useful to picking up the nuances of the game. I actually went to the EHM game folder and opened the hints folder in microsoft word and saved it to so I can read them more easily at my own pace.They actually make an 8-9 page word doc with no spacing, so actually like 15 pages normal document style.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

very worth pointing out that SI has released two patches within 5 days of the release of the game (and they are still working on more). say what you want about a game coming out that has some issues, but I, for one, am appreciative of the quick attempt to fix stuff.

I see what you're saying, but I think the need for two patches within five days of release speaks louder. {shrug} YMMV.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

For an example of this consider FM - it has 50 odd leagues in it, consider the number of permutations you can have upon starting the game and selecting the leagues:

50x49x48x47x46x45.....

Which makes a certain amount of sense, but unless you're saying that the points bug with a particular league is related to configuration instead of a setting for that specific league (i.e. does it happen with that league no matter what others are active or does it only occur if a certain combination of leagues is active), I'm not sure how that fairly applies to this.

If you're going to include 50 leagues, then it just seems to me that at a bare minimum somebody somewhere should actually fire up a game or two with that league included & actually look at the output. That just seems like a logical part of the beta process. And further, I would suggest that if you can't find testers willing to do even that bare minimum of examination of a league then perhaps that league shouldn't be included at all, better to do fewer things well than more things poorly.

To be clear, I'm by no means I singling out EHM or SI, you just happen to be the latest example of what I consider an increasingly poor performance by the industry as a whole.

[Marc Vaughan]

If you're going to include 50 leagues, then it just seems to me that at a bare minimum somebody somewhere should actually fire up a game or two with that league included & actually look at the output. That just seems like a logical part of the beta process. And further, I would suggest that if you can't find testers willing to do even that bare minimum of examination of a league then perhaps that league shouldn't be included at all, better to do fewer things well than more things poorly.

We test all the leagues in all of our products - indeed having at least a couple of dedicated testers for each in the vast majority of cases (normally the researcher for the territory involved).

The reason I quote those permutations as an example is simply to give people a rough understanding of why testing games of this size is always going to be something which can't be 'fully stress tested' (for another example - we've over 250,000 players in the FM database to be 100% certain the transfer system is flawless we'd have to test each of these in every concievable transfer situation possible in case vagrancies in their data cause problems).

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

To be clear, I'm by no means I singling out EHM or SI, you just happen to be the latest example of what I consider an increasingly poor performance by the industry as a whole.

While this is true, you have to keep in mind that the complexity of most software being developed today is much, much, much greater than most of the software released 10 years ago.

People expect to pay the same price, year after year, for games that are increasingly complex. Yet they are confused as to why games are released with more and more bugs.

[bhlloy]

Apparently another game killing bug in the last release... too many unassisted goals is completely skewing the points totals. Hopefully a fix for this isn't too far off.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

To be clear, I'm by no means I singling out EHM or SI, you just happen to be the latest example of what I consider an increasingly poor performance by the industry as a whole.

And they still have no reason to change their tactics. Dates are king, baby.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I see what you're saying, but I think the need for two patches within five days of release speaks louder. {shrug} YMMV.

I believe I ought to clarify something, because upon further review I didn't phrase my criticism nearly as well as I should have.

Two patches in five days isn't what I find troublesome. Two issues that needed patching in the first few days of release is what I'm blasting, NOT that they issued multiple patches.

Some developers have taken shots for doing multiple small patches but I don't have an issue with how this is being patched, only that there was such a need right out of the box. Small point to most I'm sure, but it bothered me that I appear to have blasted at something that I didn't intend to.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Apparently another game killing bug in the last release... too many unassisted goals is completely skewing the points totals. Hopefully a fix for this isn't too far off.

WTF!

[jbmagic]

SI has been rushing there games out too fast. The games are not ready for release.

First OOTP 2006 and now EHM.

[Johnny93g]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

SI has been rushing there games out too fast. The games are not ready for release.

First OOTP 2006 and now EHM.

your nuts.

This EHM game is great. Im having a great time playing it. A season in, and i couldnt be happier. The only thing ive been concerned about, lack of defense scoring has corrected itself in my 2nd season. So ya, i dont know about ootp, but ehm is a good game, without many problems. I completly disagree with you

[twothree]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

SI has been rushing there games out too fast. The games are not ready for release.

First OOTP 2006 and now EHM.

[thread jack alert]

IMHO, it is not just one company. The computer game software industry has been in the release now, patch later mentality for quite some time. I switched to mostly console games almost 5 years ago because of this. And have really only just got back into computer games in the past year or so.

IMHO, the more suits and bean counters you have in a company, the buggier the initial release will be. Money isn't coming in while some programmer is holding up the company from releasing their next game, while he tries to fix a few bugs. At least, for now, most game companys still provide us with patches after release.

[\thread jack alert]

[King of New York]

Originally Posted by Johnny93g

your nuts.

This EHM game is great. Im having a great time playing it. A season in, and i couldnt be happier. The only thing ive been concerned about, lack of defense scoring has corrected itself in my 2nd season. So ya, i dont know about ootp, but ehm is a good game, without many problems. I completly disagree with you

Originally Posted by jbmagic

SI has been rushing there games out too fast. The games are not ready for release.

First OOTP 2006 and now EHM.

I think the answer is in between the two extremes. EHM 2007 certainly has some issues that are making the game less enjoyable than it should be right now. On the other hand, the second patch seems to have done a good job with the penalty issue, and posters on the SI boards have already spotted a number of reasons why players are not getting credited with assists as they should. I expect that the assist problem will get fixed fairly quickly.

I'd say that, based on what I know right now, EHM 2007 has the potential for greatness, and might not be that far from greatness.

I am a bit concerned, though, about what might turn up once folks start getting five or ten seasons deep into their careers. Right now, we are just seeing what players have been able to discover in a season or two.

[JeffR]

I'm not quite sure why, but people seem to have lost sight of the fact that this is the very first iteration of the 2D engine, the heart of the whole simulation. That's not to say it's a clumsy first try, just that there's inevitably going to be a lot of room for refinement in it. I've spent enough time talking to Riz and watching him progress with the engine over the last year to be confident the underlying fundamentals are utterly sound. Look at the leap forward the FM 2D engine took between the first and second versions in 2005 and 2006, and you can get an idea of the potential of EHM's. But that's not going to happen overnight, and not without constructive criticism. It'd be a mistake, though, to look at that process as being some kind of sign that SI fell down on the job with respect to quality.

As for the rest of the game, the bug reports really aren't noticeably more numerous or more severe than they were for the first two versions. Regardless, I'll take some of the blame for whatever quantity there are; my participation in the testing process was minimal compared to the earlier versions (a very difficult summer for me personally left me little time to do much beyond working on the database.) Some of the nitpicky 'hockey' issues (as opposed to the 'game' ones) that I would've normally spotted and harassed Riz, Graeme, and Phil about probably made it through because of that. On the upside, those are usually the types of coding things that the guys are good at correcting quickly and efficiently.

In short, if you have faith in SI's commitment to putting out a good game and then supporting it properly, there's no reason for it to be shaken. This is still the same group of guys who kept working on EHM 2005 for the better part of a year after its release (to the point of exasperating some of the research team, who wanted to get moving on 2007.) No, they're not EA, and the limited resources and dependence on volunteers will show up in the product occasionally. But "not EA" has its positive aspects, too, and responding quickly and attentively to the opinions of the paying customers is one of them.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Two patches in five days isn't what I find troublesome. Two issues that needed patching in the first few days of release is what I'm blasting, NOT that they issued multiple patches.

I understand what you are saying. Personally, other than the half-assed player photo thing, I'm very happy with the game in it's released state.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I aint worried. I've played the first two EHMs into the ground. I'm a patient man. I understand the process and I'm happy to sit back and wait for it to run it's course. Is the process ideal? No. But it works well enough, warts and all.

[Draft Dodger]

meanwhile, Roberto Luongo just demanded a trade in Vancouver. I inquired, and they requested a midling prospect and 3 4th round draft picks. Jose Theodore, welcome to the trade block.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

meanwhile, Roberto Luongo just demanded a trade in Vancouver. I inquired, and they requested a midling prospect and 3 4th round draft picks. Jose Theodore, welcome to the trade block.

Wow. Any reason for that? Are they just trying to dump salary?

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

meanwhile, Roberto Luongo just demanded a trade in Vancouver. I inquired, and they requested a midling prospect and 3 4th round draft picks. Jose Theodore, welcome to the trade block.

This 3 4th round pick buisness is really starting to annoy me... the computer is asking for and offering the same many times when a star player is involved. In real life, even if this was a salary dump, a bunch of 4th round picks and a prospect would not be enough to get a Sundin, Luongo, or McCabe.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

SI has been rushing there games out too fast. The games are not ready for release.

First OOTP 2006 and now EHM.

Have you played EHM or are you reposting other comments?

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

I understand what you are saying. Personally, other than the half-assed player photo thing, I'm very happy with the game in it's released state.

It was a tough call but we felt the money being asked wasn't a good investment. I wouldn't so much call it half arsed, more a side effect of the licensing issues we face year on year.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

This 3 4th round pick buisness is really starting to annoy me... the computer is asking for and offering the same many times when a star player is involved. In real life, even if this was a salary dump, a bunch of 4th round picks and a prospect would not be enough to get a Sundin, Luongo, or McCabe.

heck, in one of my 05 seasons, Sundin was waived. I claimed him, couldn't afford him, waived him to send to the AHL, where he cleared and sat for a couple weeks while I was able to clear cap room.

Luongo apparently requested the trade, which is new to me. I don't believe there was any formal news announcing it. I just happened to stumble across that when checking out Van. So I put in a request (I offered Theodore straight up), and they countered with the picks.

Beyond that, I agree with Joe. The trading still needs work. It's the same guys being offered every time. and usually, if you wait long enough, the team gives up and waives them. I can sort of accept the GMs trying to move their unwanted guys (heck, I sure have been), but it gets repititious. also, if they counter my offer, it's always the same players they are looking for in return (including the Luongo deal above).

It also is driving me crazy to find teams wanting my players, and then when I approach them for a trade, they aren't interested in him at all.

It's a bit better than 2k5 (which isn't saying all that much), but still doesn't seem quite "right".

[jbmagic]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

Have you played EHM or are you reposting other comments?

yes and yes

But if you want to ignore what others said on my expense thats fine.

It doesn't excuse SI for rushing out there last 2 products ootp 2006 and Ehm with this many bugs.

I am sure SI team will fix it in time. Its just frustrated to see the intial release this buggy on the last two products SI put out.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

yes and yes

This cracks me up.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

Have you played EHM or are you reposting other comments?

oh snap!

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

This cracks me up.

everything cracks you up

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

oh snap!

I can jsut see you saying that just like the german engineer from the VW "Unpimp my Auto" commercials.

It makes me laugh.

[Ajaxab]

Did the Duffy-jbotmagic exchange make me laugh or am I reposting other comments?

yes and yes

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

everything cracks you up

You crack me up. Meet me at the gas station. I've got something to show you.

[Hurst2112]

Devils won the cup my first year.

News said that it was their 3rd cup. It should be 4.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

You crack me up. Meet me at the gas station. I've got something to show you.

regular or unleaded?