Confederations Cup Final- USA v. Brazil (LET'S WORK!!!)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Yeah, I would tend to agree, Jon, especially my impression of how it works in Georgia. Out here in the West, the "baseball hotbeds" are much larger and more prevalent, and it's a realistic third choice in the suburbs, easily outgaining basketball in the suburbs, IMO. Basketball is competitive even with football in the urban areas among the taller kids (of course), but by and large it's football, football, football, since most kids aren't 6'4-+.

Found an interesting 2007 report from the CIF.
http://www.cifstate.org/about/partic...rtsurvey07.pdf

For boys, there's 107,916 playing football, followed by 49,911 track & field, 44,700 for soccer, 44,722 for basketball, and 42,835 for baseball.

For girls, soccer has 40,895 to pass track & field's 38,817, volleyball has 36, 499,basketball had 34,991, and softball had 31,306.

Of course raw numbers says nothing about the prestige of the various sports but I thought it was interesting to find those numbers.

edit to add: Still haven't found a northeast state specific figure, much less one for a region, but here's an interesting link. It's the National Federation of High School Associations database for participation in nearly every HS sport imaginable, boys & girls, by year, nationally. You can sort by sport for all the years or by year for all the sports.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

The US really could not afford to sit back and let Brazil take the game to them. Brazil is too good for that. But when you put pressure on them, you can beat them.

It kills me that they seemed to recognize that in the first half, but fucking forgot it at halftime

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

It kills me that they seemed to recognize that in the first half, but fucking forgot it at halftime

I don't think they "forgot it" - it takes a LOT out of you to track players and pressure them continually during a match, simple as that.

I'd expect that they tired and gave up that little bit of time and space which Brazil needed to make the difference.

To be honest the result is still something to be proud of from a USA perspective, heck I'd be dead chuffed if England managed a 2-3 loss against Brazil most days

We don't need your condescending back-handed compliments. We didn't go the South Africa to "take the lead on Brazil" or have results that "weren't all that bad". We showed up with one goal - win the tournament - and did not reach that goal. While there are certainly positives we can reflect on, we did not reach our goal and that is a disappointment no matter what. Maybe in Netherlands second-best is what you strive for, but not for us.

Everyone who enters a tournament should want to win it - but they should also imho be realistic about their achievements.

Don't nail your coach to the flag post because you didn't win it - appreciate the fact that realistically speaking your team far out-performed reasonable expectations, given time he might take them even further.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

The lack of presence of Adu and Torres or other offensively-inclined players is a long standing criticism of Bradley. Reminds me of the Angels, fans complaining (me one of them) that we keep throwing in an Izturis in there in the lineup when we have Brandon Wood ripping it up in AAA. Pro-Wood fans (most of Angel nation) wonder WTF Scioscia won't bring him up and play him. And then other fans basically say "In Scioscia we trust". Frustrating for those of us who want Wood up.

Same with Bradley and guys like Adu and Torres. He just doesn't seem to play them enough. Even more annoying with Bradley, though, is that, unlike Scioscia, he doesn't have the track record to deserve people looking away.

Are we talking about the same Brandon Wood with a .198 career MLB average That would seem to support the crowd that says trust the guy making the decision, he knows the game and the player better than the guys in the stands.

I've followed USA soccer at arms length for most of my life. I don't like soccer. I'd like to see the USA do well and cheer for the USA as an American.

But the USA soccer base is just about the worst fan base of any sport I've ever seen. Fans are patting the team on the back for making one of its greatest tournament runs ever while trashing the coach for his decisions. So ... the expectation is that the team isn't better than Brazil and when the team loses, fire the coach. That attitude makes George Steinbrenner seem absolutely calm and rational.

USA soccer fans remind me a lot of my local Royals fan base. They know the Royals don't have a team to compete then they win a few games and they expect them to win it all. As soon as they start to lose, its the manager's fault because he sucks or it's the GM for signing too many vets or not enough, playing too many rookies or not enough.

What I've seen USA soccer do is what any team that doesn't win often does: change coaches, players, management, etc. But this isn't the NFL where parity is king or MLB where you an buy a title. You can't change a country's performance in a sport on a dime. Spain is competitive with the US in basketball but it's taken decades of improvement. There's no magical fix that will make Team USA a winner. Burning down the house and restarting without plan will continue to keep American soccer in neutral.

But RPI touches on what I think is our fundamental flaw in soccer. USA soccer fans are generally satisfied with an atta-boy. Look at Brazil and other winners in soccer -- losses hurt and hurt bad. When we got embarrassed in basketball in 1988, when unleashed the pros and punished the world. If Brazil had lost today, there would be nationwide mourning. We lost and ... we don't really care. If that's your mindset, you're not going to win.

It's not a jingo-istic American thing -- it's about being a winner. The USA didn't expect to win and Brazil did. When that's the case, the results are usually predictable.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

I don't think they "forgot it" - it takes a LOT out of you to track players and pressure them continually during a match, simple as that.

Bingo. You tend to see a lot of matches where the underdog has a shot, has a shot, has a shot... but then the better team goes wild and scores a couple goals and takes the game. Reason being because constant pressure of the opposing, more talented, squad, while exceedingly effective is also incredibly hard to keep up for 90 minutes.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

The problem is, around late junior high/early high school (that's 13-15 or so), these kids end up having to make a decision, stick with soccer or gravitate to one of the other sports, which they also have probably been playing and are good at. And kids invariably pick the other sports, baseball, basketball, and most predominantly, football, because "that's where the money is". If you want the "sports dream" in America, those are the sports you go to. Soccer just isn't perceived that way.

I can see from a 'money' perspective (locally in America) soccer isn't that popular - however for older people at least in my area of Florida it seems more popular as a sport to play than more 'traditional' American sports*.

I play in a very active soccer league (3v3 or 4v4 for adults) with probably around 80-100 odd active players at my age (and around 300 players at youth age).

Its great fun and the skill level varies from fairly low (there are a lot of people who've never played soccer before in the rec leagues) to very talented (some of the better players in the competitive divisions are incredibly skillful - particularly some of the people who've played at college level).

I think more and more people are attracted to soccer because in its essence its a very simple sport and requires next to no equipment to play a match, indeed I play pick up matches here on a sunday in one of the local parks where we still do the whole 'jumpers for goalposts' type of thing

*I say more popular than traditional American sports simply because I have yet to see an American Football or Baseball league advertised for adults in the area, I have seen adult basketball leagues advertised and that is what I'd probably consider the 'most popular' to play sport around this area.
I find this interesting as I'd always thought American Football and Baseball were the 'classic' American sports and as such expected to see more of them played when I moved over here.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

So ... the expectation is that the team isn't better than Brazil and when the team loses, fire the coach. ...

Unless you don't believe that the team will ever win with said coach, in which case it would seem to make pretty good sense (assuming the object is actually to win eventually).

[larrymcg421]

I don't think a coach is immune from criticism just because the team overperforms. The team can surpass expectations for reasons other than the coach, and it is possible for the coach to prevent them from taking full advantage of that.

A case in point is the Orlando Magic this year. Van Gundy certainly did some good things in helping them get where they ended up, but there's no doubt that his terrible decisions cost the Magic at least 4 or 5 playoff games, and definitely cost them THE key game of the Finals. So eventhough the Magic got further than anyone expected, Van Gundy still deserves every bit of criticism for his horrible decision making.

I don't know enough about soccer to judge the tactics that Bradley employed, but just because the US squeaked in to the semis based on lucky circumstances and pulled off a big upset doesn't validate all of his decisions.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Unless you don't believe that the team will ever win with said coach, in which case it would seem to make pretty good sense (assuming the object is actually to win eventually).

Though one of the problems may be that the coach that some of the fanbase seems to want doesn't seem to exist (or at least doesn't seem to want the US job or would ask for a wheelbarrow-load of money).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

I play in a very active soccer league (3v3 or 4v4 for adults) with probably around 80-100 odd active players at my age (and around 300 players at youth age). ... *I say more popular than traditional American sports simply because I have yet to see an American Football or Baseball league advertised for adults in the area, I have seen adult basketball leagues advertised and that is what I'd probably consider the 'most popular' to play sport around this area. I find this interesting as I'd always thought American Football and Baseball were the 'classic' American sports and as such expected to see more of them played when I moved over here.

Bet you'd have no problem finding a great deal more than 100 or so adult male softball players though.

The physical demands of baseball tend to put an end to most competitive play by adulthood except for real extreme diehards, and they gravitate to softball. Sometimes ultra-competitive, more often beer league caliber and a good bit that are in between. Full blown full contact football for adults pretty much ceases to exist outside of a relative few semi-pro teams & leagues, there's a little bit of organized flag football out there afaik but the injury risk plus the high cost tend to end pads & helmet play for most folks.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by cubboyroy1826

Okay let's talk a little more about the pipeline getting US players to the Euro leagues. Are US players not getting the opportunities because they are not good enough, there is no real scouting system in place, or there is a bias against US players. For the players that have made the transition to the Euro leagues has there been a problem transitioning because our game differs from the Euro game?

For under-18's, they aren't allowed to sign a professional contract unless they have a European passport (my neighbor plays for Birmingham City because his dad is English and he has a passport there.) Even for players over 18, a Euro passport is almost required in many countries since they only have a limited number of spots for foreigners.

Scouting and the different style of play also do contribute. The top players get seen internationally, or at showcase youth tournaments, but if you're going for a squad player why would a European team bother coming across the ocean to scout in America than going to a nearby country? Also it takes almost any player time to adjust to a new league, but there's such little track record of players going from MLS to Europe, or vice versa that it's hard to know how a player will translate. (That can also work against foreigners coming into MLS - there have been many, many busts and players that couldn't handle the physicality/athleticism of MLS.) Mexican teams play a more continental style, and the Superliga matches almost always end up being intense because of the clash of styles. What's called a foul in Mexico, or Spain, or what's a red card internationally, isn't in MLS, and players that think they've been fouled with no call start hacking and bitching.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

I don't think they "forgot it" - it takes a LOT out of you to track players and pressure them continually during a match, simple as that.

I'd expect that they tired and gave up that little bit of time and space which Brazil needed to make the difference.

To be honest the result is still something to be proud of from a USA perspective, heck I'd be dead chuffed if England managed a 2-3 loss against Brazil most days

good points. i guess i just would have wished that Bradley would have substituted accordingly (bring on fresh legs that might have helped), but there again i guess the lack of depth hurt.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Though one of the problems may be that the coach that some of the fanbase seems to want doesn't seem to exist (or at least doesn't seem to want the US job or would ask for a wheelbarrow-load of money).

Jurgen Klinsmann turned down the job not over money but over US Soccer refusing to give him control of the Youth Development Teams. The politics and good ole boy network is very much alive and well.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Bingo. You tend to see a lot of matches where the underdog has a shot, has a shot, has a shot... but then the better team goes wild and scores a couple goals and takes the game. Reason being because constant pressure of the opposing, more talented, squad, while exceedingly effective is also incredibly hard to keep up for 90 minutes.

yeah. but i think they could have done better..seemed like they just had nothing in the second half, which, as a fan, is disappointing.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Though one of the problems may be that the coach that some of the fanbase seems to want doesn't seem to exist (or at least doesn't seem to want the US job or would ask for a wheelbarrow-load of money).

Fair point, but a different point IMO.

They could be still right that the current guy isn't "the guy" but in denial that he doesn't exist/isn't obtainable under acceptable terms.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Jurgen Klinsmann turned down the job not over money but over US Soccer refusing to give him control of the Youth Development Teams. The politics and good ole boy network is very much alive and well.

I'm not sure blaming US Soccer for not giving Klinsmann the keys to the entire house is all that fair. NFL experiments should show us that GM-Coach deals don't always tend to work that well... for obvious reasons.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I don't think a coach is immune from criticism just because the team overperforms. The team can surpass expectations for reasons other than the coach, and it is possible for the coach to prevent them from taking full advantage of that.

Agreed.

I don't know enough about soccer to judge the tactics that Bradley employed, but just because the US squeaked in to the semis based on lucky circumstances and pulled off a big upset doesn't validate all of his decisions.

I think the tactics that Bradley employed 'made' the luck which gave USA the opportunity to make it to the final and then pushed Brazil as far as they did.

Without trying to be mean, most people will agree that both the Brazilian and Spanish teams are technically and physically head and shoulders above the USA team - both contain what are considered to be World Class players playing at the peak of their games and performing consistently within the best soccer leagues in the world.

The USA team by contrast has some very competant players but few players who could be considered on a level with their opposing players.

From what I could see the tactics that the USA coach employed were intended to emphasise superior work-rate, cohesion and tactical organisation to nullify the differential in skill between the teams.

This very nearly came off and imho is a sign of a very good coach, one who should be praised rather than criticised.

The team USA reminded me of most were the Greek side who won't the European Championships a while back - that side also was lacking in stand out 'World Class' players but made up for it through work rate and organisation.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Jurgen Klinsmann turned down the job not over money but over US Soccer refusing to give him control of the Youth Development Teams. The politics and good ole boy network is very much alive and well..

To be honest I don't know what the level of coaching is like at university levels etc. here because I haven't attended - BUT I have been hugely impressed with the skill level of older teenagers I've played against here, heck the technical control of most of them surpasses most similar aged English players (the problem is more however imho that they know the 'control' and especially the 'cool' tricks but lack positional intelligence defensively - that being said the little buggers can still run me into the ground without any hassle after which positionally I've got my hands on my knee's gasping and it doesn't disadvantage them at all ).

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

To be honest I don't know what the level of coaching is like at university levels etc. here because I haven't attended - BUT I have been hugely impressed with the skill level of older teenagers I've played against here, heck the technical control of most of them surpasses most similar aged English players (the problem is more however imho that they know the 'control' and especially the 'cool' tricks but lack positional intelligence defensively - that being said the little buggers can still run me into the ground without any hassle after which positionally I've got my hands on my knee's gasping and it doesn't disadvantage them at all ).

how'd my name get attached to that quote?

[DaddyTorgo]

lack positional intelligence defensively - that's a nice bit of analysis MV - thanks for that. I guess I was under the wrong impression as far as lacking the close-control bit.

but i still contend as far as "seeing the larger game" that I was correct and we're talking about the same thing -- defensive positional intelligence, the ability to move into space and play the ball into space and make your teammates better is what most US players are lacking (on a "world class" level)

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Speaking of which, going to see Galaxy-Houston tonight.

And in that vein...Cringer blows.

Game time - 3 points Dynamo.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

how'd my name get attached to that quote?

Dunno - copy and paste error on my behalf most likely, apologies.

[RainMaker]

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but does the loss of Bradley today from the lineup have an effect on the outcome? Do they hang on with him out there?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Dunno - copy and paste error on my behalf most likely, apologies.

no worries - just found it curious. like you put my name on his quote but the point you responded to was mine

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but does the loss of Bradley today from the lineup have an effect on the outcome? Do they hang on with him out there?

maybe. it might have given them some more midfield depth. but idk because then he would have likely started and we'd have been missing benny F

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

maybe. it might have given them some more midfield depth. but idk because then he would have likely started and we'd have been missing benny F

Either way, it would have given a better option later in the game then Sacha. Since Beasley has been benched, Sach is my new target of venom.

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

Is there anyone who really thinks differently?

I'd say the US has an even chance of making it out of the group. Assuming a draw that is not particularly harsh or favorable, their World Cup group should be easier than their Confederations Cup group.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Are we talking about the same Brandon Wood with a .198 career MLB average That would seem to support the crowd that says trust the guy making the decision, he knows the game and the player better than the guys in the stands.

Not saying those people supporting Scioscia's moves are wrong. There's certainly logic to support that he knows what he's doing. But when every single year your team suffers from offensive issues, and in particular, power issues, and your statistically least productive players are playing at the same position as your best offensive prospect who is tearing it up in AAA, it's a little hard to just swallow that and go with it.

As for the numbers, really? You're going to toss out what Wood's done in 192 at bats in sporadic time, mostly September or spot injury call ups, over three seasons to make a vast generalization on him? Come on, not everyone is a star in the bigs from the first moment they step on a major league field.

[Karlifornia]

Whoever is slagging on MIJB needs to take a time out and reevaluate. MIJB has been nothing but supportive of USA Football. Yeah, he gives a neutral take on things. He's not a USA!!USA!! Moronic patriot. He's a supportive outsider from a country that has a richer football tradition than we could even dream of having.

He's on our side, but he's not blind to the truth. MIJB, I always have, and always will continue to appreciate your contributions. Don't let buttheads deter you, please.

[Karlifornia]

btw, that second goal from our side was one of the most beautiful plays I have ever witnessed in any sport. If I had been more sober while watching it, the hairs on the back of my neck would have not only stood, but leapt from my skin.

That counter-attack and goal was a prime example of why people call it "The Beautiful Game". I could watch the replay forever.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

btw, that second goal from our side was one of the most beautiful plays I have ever witnessed in any sport. If I had been more sober while watching it, the hairs on the back of my neck would have not only stood, but leapt from my skin.

That counter-attack and goal was a prime example of why people call it "The Beautiful Game". I could watch the replay forever.

Yeah, its one of those times you realize that Donovan is a genuine skill player - and the US doesn't have many of those to waste. Yeah he's frustrating as hell, but the talent is still there.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Yeah, its one of those times you realize that Donovan is a genuine skill player - and the US doesn't have many of those to waste. Yeah he's frustrating as hell, but the talent is still there.

Word. Flawed he may be, but he's pretty much the best we got, and we should appreciate him.

[DaddyTorgo]

YouTube - Landon Donovan goal vs Brazil - Confederations Cup Final (USA v Brazil)

(for some reason my video-embedding fu has left the building)

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but does the loss of Bradley today from the lineup have an effect on the outcome? Do they hang on with him out there?

Many feel he is the best player for the US, so yes I would say it had an affect. Maybe Bob would have went to his bench sooner if Feilhaber would have been available.

I think one of the announcers said that Brazil had played everyone on its roster, except for its two backup goalkeepers. They were more fresh down the stretch, and that is probably why. Many of the US players would probably not be considered match fit coming into this tournament. (Spector, Bocanegra, Altidore, etc.)

I also agree that MIJB did nothing wrong. I use to think he was Eurosnot, but that was probably the more immature GE that though that.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

Word. Flawed he may be, but he's pretty much the best we got, and we should appreciate him.

Donovan would tear it up in LaLiga, where he would be given time and space on the ball. He really needs to get out of MLS.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

Donovan would tear it up in LaLiga, where he would be given time and space on the ball. He really needs to get out of MLS.

Totally.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughn

I think the tactics that Bradley employed 'made' the luck which gave USA the opportunity to make it to the final and then pushed Brazil as far as they did.

From what I could see the tactics that the USA coach employed were intended to emphasise superior work-rate, cohesion and tactical organisation to nullify the differential in skill between the teams.

This very nearly came off and imho is a sign of a very good coach, one who should be praised rather than criticised.

The problem is those are the same tactics that have been employed by the US by any decent coach for the past 20 years. I fail to see how Bob Bradley finally coming around to and continuing what worked previously makes him a very good coach. He's not Guus Hiddink with Russia reinventing the wheel and making players do things on the pitch fans never thought possible.

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

Many feel he is the best player for the US, so yes I would say it had an affect. Maybe Bob would have went to his bench sooner if Feilhaber would have been available.

But where would he have played? Doubtful Bradley Sr. would have pulled his son or Clark if we were tied or nursing a lead, so most likely Feilhaber comes on for Altidore, bumping Dempsey up to forward. And taking Altidore off at 2-2 for a less talented offensive player was the bigger problem than whether Feilhaber, Kljestan, Bornstein or Beasley was the sub (even as bad as Kljestan and Beasley played).

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

To be honest I don't know what the level of coaching is like at university levels etc. here because I haven't attended - BUT I have been hugely impressed with the skill level of older teenagers I've played against here, heck the technical control of most of them surpasses most similar aged English players (the problem is more however imho that they know the 'control' and especially the 'cool' tricks but lack positional intelligence defensively - that being said the little buggers can still run me into the ground without any hassle after which positionally I've got my hands on my knee's gasping and it doesn't disadvantage them at all ).

It's not so much the coaching ability as it is the NCAA's limiting of practice time/games and the rules - you can sub any player anytime in the half, and they can re-enter in the 2nd. This leads to college teams ending up emphasizing speed and high pressure defense everywhere instead of positioning and possession football that conserves energy. (There are some exceptions - the ACC and Wake Forest in particular have enough quality to play tactical soccer.)

Take Charlie Davies as an example. He graduated HS from this area a year after me and I have many friends that played with/against him either ISL or club teams. There were a number that had technical ability in the same range, but Davies was also a fantastic athlete (All American wrestler). That meant he would get put at forward, served long balls and get the attention (another example for US fans is Sheanon Williams, who was the 2nd best player on the Bolts to a kid who lost 5 games in 3 years combined between HS and Club and just quit college soccer because he played possession CM/AM and his team is all long ball). Even in college at BC it was much the same thing for 3 years. Then he left to go to Sweden, where he's quite possibly the best athlete in the league, but he has poor finishing so it takes him until the last game of his 1st season to score his 1st goal. Then this past season he did very well and is being looked at by clubs in France, Holland, Germany. But he did that at a later age than comparative European players (he just turned 23). If you removed the 3 years he effectively spent stagnating at BC, he'd be 20 and a very bright prospect. Instead he's looked at as a finished project by many teams solely due to age, even though he's still developing, and won't get nearly the attention of a player like Theo Walcott or Jozy Altidore.

Meanwhile of the other players who were as good or better technically, they played D3 ball, or a couple D1, and now all but 1 or 2 have gotten college degrees and are working in higher paying jobs than anything MLS will pay, and playing the weekend mens leagues. Now, some players have come through college and turned into good players (Dempsey, Davies, Marcus Tracy, Vedad Ibisevic from TSG Hoffenheim, Shalrie Joseph, GK's it doesn't affect much) but those guys all were late bloomers because of the 3-4 years of limited development. Of course while it hampers our production of world-class players (and more and more young players like Altidore, Bradley and Adu are going pro instead of college) the flip side of the coin is that many of our "failed" football players are getting an education and are able to find a good job after college, while in most other countries the ones that don't make it professionally are usually left with less than a high school education. You can see why parents in this country like the current system.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

I'd say the US has an even chance of making it out of the group. Assuming a draw that is not particularly harsh or favorable, their World Cup group should be easier than their Confederations Cup group.

I enjoy your wide eyed optimism Big Fo and I saw the ESPN.com poll put most people in your camp, but I can't see it as anything other then delusional.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

Donovan would tear it up in LaLiga, where he would be given time and space on the ball. He really needs to get out of MLS.

I dunno - Germany's a pretty high-scoring league (though admittedly more Premier League like than Spain), and he certainly wasn't a big hit there. I think Donovan's running away from Germany twice probably scars him in European eyes; I do think he has the talent to play at that level (not a Real Madrid / Barca of course, but still).

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

I dunno - Germany's a pretty high-scoring league (though admittedly more Premier League like than Spain), and he certainly wasn't a big hit there. I think Donovan's running away from Germany twice probably scars him in European eyes; I do think he has the talent to play at that level (not a Real Madrid / Barca of course, but still).

I think Landon Donovan's a little bitch, but it's not fair to say he ran away from Germany this time. He had a 2 month loan deal with Bayern Munich and they neglected to buy him. I don't know if he'll leave LA with his wife's commitments, and his insistence on going to a high-profile club instead of just going to a smaller team in La Liga or Germany that didn't have Toni, Klose and Podolski ahead of him is annoying though.

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

I enjoy your wide eyed optimism Big Fo and I saw the ESPN.com poll put most people in your camp, but I can't see it as anything other then delusional.

Well it's hardly delusional considering they've made it out of the group stage two of the last four times. Maybe they will, maybe they won't but they'll have a decent chance.

Qualifiers could change, most confederations are still in progress, but here is what the draw could look like as of today (it's unlikely the US would be in pot 1 even with a Gold Cup victory):

(stats from www.football-rankings.info)

Pot 1: Argentina, Brazil, England, France, Germany, Italy, South Africa, Spain
Pot 2: Croatia, Czech Republic, Greece, Netherlands, Portugal, Russia, Switzerland, Turkey
Pot 3: Australia, Honduras, Iran, Japan, Korea Republic, Mexico, Saudi Arabia, USA
Pot 4: Cameroon, Chile, Cote d'Ivoire, Egypt, Ghana, Nigeria, Paraguay, Uruguay

Obviously, a Spain/Netherlands/USA/Cote d'Ivoire group would likely see us coming home early. Even assuming we won't luck out and get South Africa's group, something like Germany/Greece/USA/Nigeria would be something the US would have a good chance of qualifying from.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Well it's hardly delusional considering they've made it out of the group stage two of the last four times. Maybe they will, maybe they won't but they'll have a decent chance.

Those teams were better then this team. I rewatched much of the Championship game. Howard kept that from being 5 or 6 to 2. Haven't seen it many places but he was brilliant for much of that game.

Teams that are going to go to the World Cup and play well aren't blowing 2-0 halftime leads like that. Even at 2-0 Brazil knew they were coming back, they dominated that game, it was just the rare occasion the US converted their few chances and it made the score much closer then the game.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

Those teams were better then this team. I rewatched much of the Championship game. Howard kept that from being 5 or 6 to 2. Haven't seen it many places but he was brilliant for much of that game.

Teams that are going to go to the World Cup and play well aren't blowing 2-0 halftime leads like that. Even at 2-0 Brazil knew they were coming back, they dominated that game, it was just the rare occasion the US converted their few chances and it made the score much closer then the game.

It should have been 4-2 regardless as the refs missed a Brazil goal.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I think Landon Donovan's a little bitch, but it's not fair to say he ran away from Germany this time. He had a 2 month loan deal with Bayern Munich and they neglected to buy him. I don't know if he'll leave LA with his wife's commitments, and his insistence on going to a high-profile club instead of just going to a smaller team in La Liga or Germany that didn't have Toni, Klose and Podolski ahead of him is annoying though.

Based on the book coming out, Donovan isn't coming back to an MLS team after what happened with Beckham

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It should have been 4-2 regardless as the refs missed a Brazil goal.

Nope. That goal could have rallied the troops for the US and we win 5-3

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Based on the book coming out, Donovan isn't coming back to an MLS team after what happened with Beckham

Based off the SI excerpt, Donovan comes off like such a little spoiled brat it's unbelievable. He feels disrespected because they ask him to give up the captain's armband when Beckham is coming in? He thinks Beckham is a terrible teammate and leader because he wasn't buying the whole team meals every week? Donovan sent his complaints to Beckham by text message? It's the same reason why he despises Freddy Adu. He's so insecure he needs to be acknowledged as the best player on the team and hates any other players that play with confidence or "an ego". And while he may be the most accomplished US field player in modern history, we're not going to win a world cup if he's the best player on the team.

And if Donovan was the leader/captain he thinks he is in his mind and actually cared about team success, he wouldn't be publicly airing it out with his team's most important player for the 2nd half of the season.

[ISiddiqui]

Wait... you came away with Donovan coming off like a spoiled brat?! Donovan?!

Wow.

If anything, I came away with far more respect for LD than I've had in the past.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Based off the SI excerpt, Donovan comes off like such a little spoiled brat it's unbelievable. He feels disrespected because they ask him to give up the captain's armband when Beckham is coming in? He thinks Beckham is a terrible teammate and leader because he wasn't buying the whole team meals every week? Donovan sent his complaints to Beckham by text message? It's the same reason why he despises Freddy Adu. He's so insecure he needs to be acknowledged as the best player on the team and hates any other players that play with confidence or "an ego". And while he may be the most accomplished US field player in modern history, we're not going to win a world cup if he's the best player on the team.

And if Donovan was the leader/captain he thinks he is in his mind and actually cared about team success, he wouldn't be publicly airing it out with his team's most important player for the 2nd half of the season.

What?

[Chief Rum]

Wow, that article is an eye opener. And as a Galaxy fan, it makes a lot of things about the team the past couple seasons--failing in spite of their talent--make a ton of sense.

I'm in the camp with Issidiqui, BTW, have no idea how it's Donovan that comes off looking bad there. I'm not sure it's a good idea for Becks to come back to LA with what's in this article.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Wait... you came away with Donovan coming off like a spoiled brat?! Donovan?!

Fine, Beckham is the spoiled brat and Donovan is the petulant, insecure little girl. Beckham sounds like he turned into Vince Carter trying to sulk his way to a different team about mid-2008, but I don't see how you gain respect for Donovan and/or think he comes off looking good here.

Originally Posted by http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/the_bonus/06/29/beckham.book/?eref=sircrc

Donovan recalled two exchanges that had taken place just the week before. On successive days he had met with Yallop and Galaxy president and general manager Alexi Lalas, and each had told him that "people above me" -- meaning Tim Leiweke, CEO of AEG, which owned the Galaxy -- thought Beckham should be the team captain. Both men tried to sugarcoat the blow. "I don't really look at who has the armband," Yallop told Donovan. "You're a leader to me, a great player. It would just be great if you could have a relationship with David and you pass it on to him." Lalas, for his part, issued Donovan a challenge: "Let him be the captain; you be the star."
...
Donovan's first thought about his bosses' request? That's pretty s-----. He didn't have a problem with someone else being captain, least of all a player with Beckham's credentials, but he did have an acute sense of being disrespected.
...
Of course, nobody -- including Donovan -- would tell the media the real story behind the change.

Well, unless we consider an SI soccer journalist part of the media.

Nearly everyone at the table was thinking, Is Beckham going to pick up the check? But nobody said anything. Beckham, meanwhile, had never been in this situation before. The players on his other teams had all been millionaires, and Real Madrid paid for all team meals anyway. The Galaxy provided only a $45 per diem on the road. What would Beckham do? What should he do? Donovan eyed the bill from his seat. He had paid for teammates' dinners in the past, and (Donovan) had made his position clear even before Beckham's arrival. "He'd better be picking up meals too," Donovan had told teammates, "or else I'll call him out on it."
But defender Chris Klein, one of Donovan's best friends on the team, had a different viewpoint. "If you're out to dinner with the guys and you pick up a check here or there, then fine," Klein said. "But if you start to feel like you're being used, these aren't your friends anymore. These are leeches. You can look at it two ways: Here's this guy that's making a lot of money, and maybe he should pick up the tab. But the other side of it is, maybe he's trying so hard to be one of the guys, if he's paying for everything then he's not one of the guys anymore."
Beckham didn't pick up the check. He put in enough to cover his share and passed it along. That would be standard operating procedure at meals throughout the season. "None of us care," said Kelly Gray, one of Beckham's frequent dining companions. "It's just nice to go out to dinner."
Donovan didn't call Beckham out at Morton's after all, but he could never get over Beckham's alligator arms when the bill arrived.

Donovan talking tough about calling someone out (over a petty grievance his teammates don't have a problem with) and then not backing it up. This comes up again later.

After months of reflection Donovan felt that he had worried too much about Beckham's arrival, wasted too much time and energy wondering whether they and their wives would have a close relationship. It was like the bad parts of high school

Most of all, Donovan was upset that Beckham had not supported him in front of the team when Gullit had confronted him at halftime of the May 25 game against Kansas City. Donovan had not played deep enough in midfield in the first half, according to Gullit, who angrily challenged him in the locker room. "If I'm the captain and he goes after our best player that way, I would have said, 'Hold on a second, that's not right, this guy is doing everything he can,' " Donovan said. But Beckham had sat stone silent.

I was shy, self-conscious and never a captain in any sport I played and I had no problem standing up to any coach or teammate I ever had. If Donovan is a captain and a leader, why does he need other people to fight his battles?

"I really like David as a person, and I respect him as a man," Chris Klein said, "but it's a different type of leadership that has to go on with all this. Sometimes it's the rah-rah American sports leader that needs to be like, 'All right, guys, come on!' and have a team meeting. It's difficult for a foreign player to do that because [he doesn't] know what the college kid had to go through, [he doesn't] know what it's like to make $12,000 a year."

A) clearly Beckham was used to a different culture and atmosphere where players took care of their own business.

B) any athlete, let alone a professional, who needs a rah-rah team meeting when they're losing is a joke.

Beckham, meanwhile, had grown increasingly frustrated over not seeing enough of the ball on the right side, so much so that he had been drifting all over the field. Beckham wasn't hiding -- he wanted to do something -- but the net effect was negative.By mid-July, Donovan felt he needed to say something to Beckham about it, but it was a sign of their increasingly distant relationship that he did so by text message. I know you're frustrated and I know you're trying, Donovan wrote, but we need you farther up the field where you're more dangerous. You're the best player out there and you need the ball, but it doesn't help us achieve anything if you're doing other people's jobs.

Beckham's reply was short: We just need guys to be better on the field and do a better job. Donovan tried to follow up with Beckham in the locker room the next day -- "You understand what I'm saying?" he asked -- but Beckham clearly didn't want to talk about it.

In addition to being accustomed to a more professional atmosphere, clearly Beckham was also used to better players. And not just that MLS players were worse than EPL/La Liga players - keep in mind that that Galaxy team had possibly the worst starting goalie/defenders/d-middies in MLS history. Quite simply they weren't doing their jobs and getting the ball up which is why Beckham (and Donovan) was tracking back and collecting it so much. Surround Kobe or LeBron or DWade or Crosby with rookies and fringe players and see how he responds. Any great, competitive player is naturally going to try and take over the game and do too much when his teammates suck. And those teammates blew. Should Beckham have called a team meeting and said that 22 of the 28 players on the roster were abysmal and could be replaced by mens league players? (It's partially Beckham's fault because between his and Donovan's contracts the Galaxy had no money under the salary cap to spend on quality, but I don't think he would have pulled this crap if he was in an organization/on a team like Houston or New England.)


Agreed that from this point on Beckham begins to look bad, but I completely understand where the frustration is coming from, and it's also only telling one side of the story.

Donovan had wanted the Beckham Experiment to work, and there was no reason in his mind that it still couldn't be successful in 2009. But not if Beckham continued acting the way he had during the last half of 2008. "When David first came, I believed he was committed to what he was doing," Donovan said. "He cared. He wanted to do well. He wanted the team and the league to do well.

Except we have you saying the exact opposite 2 paragraphs away.

From the start Donovan's primary concern with Beckham had been, What is he really here for? The money? A vacation? Would he care about beating Real Salt Lake when he'd played for Real Madrid?

Donovan didn't know what would come next, but he did know that things would have to change if he and Beckham were teammates in 2009. "Let's say he does stay here three more years," Donovan said. "I'm not going to spend the next three years of my life doing it this way. This is f------ miserable. I don't want to have soccer be this way."
What could he do? "That's my issue too," he said. "I've got to confront it somehow. If that's the way he's going to be, fine, then hold him accountable. Bench him. Just say, 'We're not going to play you, we don't think you're committed.' "

Jesus - if you are the captain, if you are this leader, confront him. Confront management. Don't repress your feelings and give hatchet job interviews.

By the time Beckham returned, Donovan planned on finally confronting the Englishman over his commitment to the Galaxy.

Better late than never, if it actually happens. And I suppose this backdoor crybaby act in the media assures it will. Of course, I don't see how turning this into a soap opera will do anything to help LA Galaxy in 2009 (i.e. the rest of Beckham's, and possibly Donovan's, career with them) instead of making them ever more the traveling freak show/circus.