Have we been invaded?

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Yeah, he could be lying...but everything in the media suggests he knows what he is talking about. Story about ERs closing in Florida because too many non-payers without insurance using them as 'clinics.' Story just the other day about hospitals in L.A. I believe dumping patients back out on the streets because they can't pay and a picture with it of some poor, older women outside in hospital gown and slippers looking confused.

We just don't have the resources to be the welfare state for the world's uninsured, we can't even properly care for our own citizens. Seems pretty obvious to many, maybe your info shows different? Doubt it.

He's not lying. He's not a doctor. One with reading skills can easily parse that from what he's posted.

I'm in the healthcare insurance industry. I'm an Underwriting Manager at one of the largest carriers. There are no real answers on the horizion. Certainly the HSA/HRA consumer-directed insurance plan the current administration touts is not the answer.

If you don't see the irony of being upset over the healthcare costs of illegal immigrants and trying to make abortion illegal I don't know how I can help you.

Smoking adds much more burden to the American economy through health-care costs then illegal immigrants do, why don't people put their energies towards making that illegal.

The ideas I kick around in my head that might help:

1. The attitudes of American's towards health care need to change. In this country we will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on patients who are terminal to add small amounts of time to their lives. In the future, I feel that will have to change - I'm sorry but giving 3 weeks of time to an 80-year old with terminal cancer is not worth the money in the aggregate. Certainly everyone in that situation feels it's right in their situation, but for the country it doesn't work.

2. Education. Children need to be educated at an early age on how to stay healthy in the first place. Smoking/Drinking/Diet - those are the big three lifestyle decisions that impact the long term costs.

3. The employer sponsored model of providing insurance is running out of time. It is too cost prohibitive to stay competitive in a global economy when other countries do not have this inflationary situation. Everyone is going to have more ownership of their spending. The key is balancing what people need versus what they can afford. Being employed at the industy leader in consumer directed health care, I've been in an HSA plan since they were made legal and an HRA plan before that. It's going to be very painful to a lot of people.

4. Government regulation needs to change. State governments need to change the way they regulate. The laws just add cost to the system. For example in NJ, Advanced Reproductive Therapies are mandated. Why should someone's employer be on the hook to provide 6 cycles of in-vitro fertilzation? I think that New York took some good steps when they cracked down on the brokers. There are way too many brokers who are looking out for their own interests and not the concerns of the plan sponsors.

The uninsured are a huge problem. There are plenty of folks much smarter then me working on that, and I've yet to see an ideas that really even begin to solve the problem. So many of the inflationary concerns in the health-care industry stem from other problems in the economy that it's very difficult to fix one without the other.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

So you read that and then had to wait for 800 miles until you could respond? I feel good!

Not at all what I said.

Maybe go back and re-read my posts sometime. You clearly do not know what I said, and just decided to try to attack me because I mentioned your name in what you conceive to be a negative way.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by clintl

There are about 45 million uninsured Americans at any one time, and as this article states,

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5224207

over a two-year period recently, there were 82 million who had no health insurance at one time or another.

Meanwhile, there are about 11-12 million illegal immigrants. It's not helping the situation, but these people are only a fraction of the uninsured. If you sent all of them home, the problems caused by serving the uninsured in ERs would still exist.

Exactly my point. During my residency I personally saw hundreds of uninsured patients in the ER at Charity Hospital in New Orleans. I don't believe any of them were illegal immigrants. The issue of uninsured patients and the burdens that they place on the healthcare system is much larger of an issue that will not go away even if via some method there were no illegal immigrants in the USA.

[SFL Cat]

It wouldn't surprise me if a good percentage of the people protesting ARE illegals. I find it ironic that most of them contribute nothing to the system (most are paid cash under the table and pay no taxes whatsoever) and yet receive most, if not all the benefits of citizens (welfare, medicaid, public education). IMO, they aren't doing themselves any favors with all the protests.

[Young Drachma]

http://www.nysun.com/article/28835

Story about Irish Illegal immigrants in NY and their push for amnesty.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

IMO, they aren't doing themselves any favors with all the protests.

Unfortunetly they probably are. Our politicians have seemed pretty weak against this issue up until now. Can't piss off hispanics too much, too large of a voting block now.

[kenparker23]

For the record, I am an orthopedist. I was registered under the name kparker15. Had to change registration because I changed email. I commented on some of the steroid issues (see posts by kparker15). I do read the board often and post when I see things that interest me. Even physcians can have spelling errors.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

If your paying illegals to work in this country then your stealing. Plain and simple, your a thief.

This is why we don't pay them directly. We pay farm labor contractors, and count on them to verify that the guys pruning the vines are legally here. I'm sure they do that.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Too many glasses of wine, but I guess I'll throw my hat in this ridiculous discussion.

The only way the US will be able to compete with China, India, etc., in the coming century will be through immigration. The one totally reliable correlator to GDP growth over the long term is population growth. So if you want the US economy to continue to grow at a steady rate, then you better embrace immigration, and at higher rates than we currently allow, because we aren't making enough American babies to get the job done.

As for the side issue of illegal immigration, if you can pass a security check, you should be able to come on in. See the paragraph above.

Desnudo. I agree with you on population growth. To keep up with China and India, the U.S. will have to increase its population. The best way to do this is not illegal immigration but encourage a 'brain drain' from other countries into the U.S. In the 80s and 90s, Indians and Chinese wanted to come over to the U.S. and stay. This does not seem to be as true anymore due to those countries economies growing ... however, why can't we encourage more of the talent from other 3rd world countries through targeted immigration policies?

Ex. Anyone foreign student that gets a graduate degree in the U.S. (and passes the security checks) gets to stay.

I would also be for some sort of legislation that encourage increased births (ex. bigger tax breaks? subsidized day care?). Our demographics are not as bad as the European countries but we need something to keep up with China and India.

As for illegal immigration, specifically illegals who work illegally in the U.S. It should not be allowed. With that said, the immigration/work permit rules should be changed to allow more workers from Mexico to work legally in the U.S. I believe GB and Vincente Fox were working towards this goal before 911 changed the landscape.

As a side note. As for the argument that the U.S. does not have anymore room for more immigrants ... everytime I'm on a plane and looking down, I think to myself that there is so much land around.

[JeffNights]

Build the fucking wall already.....It boils my blood to see all these illegals crying about if new tougher immigration laws get passed thir RIGHTS will be violated...THEY DONT HAVE ANY RIGHTS UNDER AMERICAN LAW. dammit.

Oh i also strongly disagree with the poster who said that verteran dont get mad over seeing them march down the street with thier mexican flag, well i'm a Vet and I think its a disgrace. Most of them illegals are wishing that they could reclaim California back to mexico.

Come here legally i'm all for ya, come here illegally, suck up the healthcare system, commit crimes, and fail to learn proper fucking English...then we got problems.

[Klinglerware]

Oral or written?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

This is why we don't pay them directly. We pay farm labor contractors, and count on them to verify that the guys pruning the vines are legally here. I'm sure they do that.

Please tell me this was sarcasm. Please.....

[Galaxy]

One thing I keep hearing is reclaiming California back to Mexico? How would that help the illegal immigrants? Wouldn't it make it Mexico (and the businesses, Americans and wealth would move to other states) all over again, and make the Hispanics flee to other states?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by JeffNights

It boils my blood to see all these illegals crying about if new tougher immigration laws get passed thir RIGHTS will be violated...THEY DONT HAVE ANY RIGHTS UNDER AMERICAN LAW...

...Come here legally i'm all for ya, come here illegally, suck up the healthcare system, commit crimes, and fail to learn proper fucking English...then we got problems.

While not as vehemently as jeff here, I have to agree. Especially on the language issue. I understand that this country is built upon a melting pot of hundreds of other cultures. Its a great story, but this is not the 19th century any longer, we've grown beyond those old fashioned whimsies.

We've existed for over 200 years and have...what...10-15 generations of truly United States natives?

There is something to be said for trying to keep "american" culture alive and well. While there is no national language, per sey, I think there should be. People born and raised in this country speak english. Like the language or not, its ours, and I think if you want to be a citizen here, you need to speak damned near as well as a native of the country. Writing I can understand might be harder, but if you can't communicate well, you're doing a disservice to the country you claim to want to be a citizen of.


end pet peeve rant.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by RendeR

While not as vehemently as jeff here, I have to agree. Especially on the language issue. I understand that this country is built upon a melting pot of hundreds of other cultures. Its a great story, but this is not the 19th century any longer, we've grown beyond those old fashioned whimsies.

We've existed for over 200 years and have...what...10-15 generations of truly United States natives?

There is something to be said for trying to keep "american" culture alive and well. While there is no national language, per sey, I think there should be. People born and raised in this country speak english. Like the language or not, its ours, and I think if you want to be a citizen here, you need to speak damned near as well as a native of the country. Writing I can understand might be harder, but if you can't communicate well, you're doing a disservice to the country you claim to want to be a citizen of.


end pet peeve rant.

I'm going to piggy-back on this post since I've been feeling many of the same things. It really bothers me to see people waving Mexican flags, or whining that there needs to be more catering to foreign speaking people. I can understand that people want to leave their countries and come here for chance at a better life, but if they want the American way of life, I think they should be willing to become Americans. If they don't want to become American, then I think they should at least respect our way of life and do what they can to fit in. American culture will gradually shift to incorporate other cultures, but the individuals are going to have to do the most adjusting.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by JeffNights

Build the fucking wall already.....It boils my blood to see all these illegals crying about if new tougher immigration laws get passed thir RIGHTS will be violated...THEY DONT HAVE ANY RIGHTS UNDER AMERICAN LAW. dammit.

Oh i also strongly disagree with the poster who said that verteran dont get mad over seeing them march down the street with thier mexican flag, well i'm a Vet and I think its a disgrace. Most of them illegals are wishing that they could reclaim California back to mexico.

Come here legally i'm all for ya, come here illegally, suck up the healthcare system, commit crimes, and fail to learn proper fucking English...then we got problems.

I'm typically loathe to take shots at other people's mastery of written English, since my own posts can be rather sloppy. But it is pretty hard not to see the irony of advocating a certain quality standard of communication when the post advocating this may not meet said standard...

[ISiddiqui]

Hey, with my experience of Grad students who were TA's at undergrad, I can definitively say that many people here legally have problems speaking the language. Hell, many illegals probably can speak English better than some of them!

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Hey, with my experience of Grad students who were TA's at undergrad, I can definitively say that many people here legally have problems speaking the language. Hell, many illegals probably can speak English better than some of them!

Reminds me the time back in my junior year of high school. We had an English Regents (a statewide high school exam on either two or three years of English), in which a foreign exchange student from Germany scored the highest in our class.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Please tell me this was sarcasm. Please.....

No I mean really that is how this works now. We didn't directly pay the guys who pruned the vines a month or so back. We won't directly pay the crew that will come pick the grapes when it is time to put the raisins down either. All of it is done through farm labor contractors. They guarantee that all of the labor is documented and legal.

We have created an entire industry that didn't used to exist to prevent farmers from directly hiring field labor.

[Franklinnoble]

OK... this thread basically sucks... but can we at least stop the crazy talk about California being 'returned' to Mexico.

The state of California, by itself, is the 5th largest economy in the world. I can guarantee we'd nuke Mexico City before we let that happen, O.K.? Seriously... it's not even remotely feasible. We'd sooner give the Northeastern United States back to the British, or the territory from the Louisiana Purchase back to the French, or Alaska back to the Russians.

I mean, damn. Even if every latino in the western united states decided to take up arms and "claim" California, there's no way the United States would let that happen. So, please, for the love of God, knock of the crazy talk.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

So, please, for the love of God, knock of the crazy talk.

NEVER

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Not at all what I said.

Maybe go back and re-read my posts sometime. You clearly do not know what I said, and just decided to try to attack me because I mentioned your name in what you conceive to be a negative way.

Whatever, I get a little tired by some of the useless bushwackers with nothing to add other than a personal attack on me. If that's not what your about then my apologies.

[Ragone]

this may come out sounding bad... but

if you are in this country illegally.. you shouldn't have any rights, other then the very most basic ones that every human being should.. (right to fair trial.. etc)

not the rights they have been complaining for (Right to get a drivers liscense? wtf?)

[clintl]

Originally Posted by Ragone

not the rights they have been complaining for (Right to get a drivers liscense? wtf?)

Well, there are a couple of ways to look at that particular issue. One is that view. The other is that since the federal government seems unable to keep them out, and they are going drive with or without a license, maybe the states letting them have a license so we know who they are and so they can buy auto insurance isn't such a terrible idea.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

You need to reread your own post. Concentrate on the word 'legal.'

You need to re-read WVUfan's post - he wants to close "ALL" Immigration.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

I mean, damn. Even if every latino in the western united states decided to take up arms and "claim" California, there's no way the United States would let that happen. So, please, for the love of God, knock of the crazy talk.

For the first time in, oh, maybe 7 months, I agree with Franklinnoble.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Fair trade, not Free trade.

HAhahahahaha - Bubba, you're aping the "Starbucks" slogan. This is hilarious. What is "fair" trade ?

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Too many glasses of wine, but I guess I'll throw my hat in this ridiculous discussion.

The only way the US will be able to compete with China, India, etc., in the coming century will be through immigration. The one totally reliable correlator to GDP growth over the long term is population growth. So if you want the US economy to continue to grow at a steady rate, then you better embrace immigration, and at higher rates than we currently allow, because we aren't making enough American babies to get the job done.

As for the side issue of illegal immigration, if you can pass a security check, you should be able to come on in. See the paragraph above.

Aye. The people complaining about "legal" immigration befuddle me - how on earth can you complain about one of the primary sources of innovation and intellectual capital ? By itself, America does not produce enough engineers, enough software developers, or so forth - Microsoft (and a whole bunch of the tech industry) is constantly asking for an increase in H1-B's because they lack qualified applicants.

[flere-imsaho]

As long as there are jobs available that no American citizen wants to do (fruit picking, toilet cleaning, lawn mowing), American will continue to have illegal aliens in the country, doing these jobs.

As usual, folks like Bubba want to control the effect (illegal immigrants) instead of the cause (job no one wants to do because a) they pay below minimum wage and b) they don't adhere to any reasonable workplace standards, such as, oh, working for 18 hours straight without breaks).

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

OK... this thread basically sucks..

What, a BW thread sucks? NO WAY.

[Cringer]

I just wish the Mexicans would stop stealing our fish.

Read Me

[heybrad]

Originally Posted by clintl

Well, there are a couple of ways to look at that particular issue. One is that view. The other is that since the federal government seems unable to keep them out, and they are going drive with or without a license, maybe the states letting them have a license so we know who they are and so they can buy auto insurance isn't such a terrible idea.

Clint... Don't you think this is a bit of wishful thinking to say that a person who is willing to enter the country illegally is going to get a drivers license and then buy insurance? I'm sorry, but I just don't see it happening.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

Sure, if you make it up.

As a fellow Phoenix resident, you know as well as i do those numbers arent made up...maybe a bit too low really

[SirFozzie]

heybrad

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by cartman

Well, you specifically mentioned Mexicans in your post Bubba, so you can't use the Irish, Russian, etc. to later accuse someone of something. It's obvious you are a product of poor debate education.

Were we "invaded" when there were thousands of protestors in Seattle for the G8 conference?

No.

Were we "invaded" when there were thousands of protestors in Chicago for the 1968 Democratic convention in Chicago?

No.

Were we invaded when half a million people gathered in Washington DC to protest segreation laws and hear Dr. King's "I have a dream" speech?

No.

Your xenophobia borders on the laughable, and it is hard to take any points you make seriously based on your arguments and the items you use to support those arguements.

GAG...that was a horrid argument back cartman. Use situations with illegal aliens and ill listen, but comparing illegal aliens marching in cali to the G8 protests is laughable...stunningly laughable

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

GAG...that was a horrid argument back cartman. Use situations with illegal aliens and ill listen, but comparing illegal aliens marching in cali to the G8 protests is laughable...stunningly laughable

What are your reasons for disagreeing? They both had large numbers of foreign borns protesting openly on American streets, and neither one was called an invasion. If anything, the demonstrations in LA over the weekend were much less violent, with no reports of violent activity and no one was arrested.

That was the point I was getting at. Just because there are large numbers of people protesting in the streets against a policy doesn't make it an invasion. The discussion steered very far away from the initial invasion discussion.

[cartman]

Here is a link from the Center for Immigration studies that does a good job of framing the current issues. It also does a good job of dispelling many myths surrounding the current situation.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back106.html

Some popular misconceptions:

The majority of immigrants here today are here illegally

Not true. The article states that of the current immigrants (those here, but not born here), between 20% and 30% are consisdered illegal.

The majority of illegal immigrants get here by crossing the border illegally

Again, not true. As the report states, most illegal aliens are here on expired visa, be they student, visitor, business, or other type. The arguement can be made that if they got a visa with the express purpose of entering the US to not return, then the intent was to commit a crime, the fact of the matter is that they had a legal right to enter the US with their valid visa. The construction of a wall at the border will do nothing to stem the flow of these kinds of illegal immigrants.

The article goes on further to make some solid recommendations on how to address the issue going forward. Some I agree with, others not so much. But overall the report does a good job of framing the current situation, describing actions taken in the past that have gotten us to where we are, and prescribing some remedies to affect future scenarios.

[lungs]

As somebody who directly supervises Latinos, as I believe I've talked about earlier here, this is quite an interesting and sticky topic for myself.

I do not work for a big corporation, I work on my father's family farm. It is organized as a corporation but not in the sense you would commonly view a corporation. In other words, my father owns 100% of the stock.

In the past, families used to provide all the labor on farms. Previously, on our farm the family provided all the labor along with maybe one hired hand. Economic conditions have basically forced smaller farmers to grow in order to survive. In turn there was a need for more labor.

We first doubled our size about 10 years ago. When looking for help, we had some distinct disadvantages to other low skill jobs. Our pay would not necessarily be the best but when considering benefits we give (free housing), pay is not a huge disadvantage. But the fact that a farm needs to operate 365 days a year and in many cases today nearly 24 hours a day really makes it unattractive. It's not something that can be changed, either. It's pretty tedious work and the most exciting thing you may get to do is drive a skid steer.

With these expanded farm sizes, the families role has shifted much more to a management role instead of management AND labor. Originally we couldn't find any decent Americans around the area. We have plenty of factories around that give weekends off. The rural Wisconsinite usually loves their weekends off for two reasons: Drinking Beer and watching the Packers. A job without many weekends off isn't an easy sell.

The first solution we had was bringing guest workers from the former Soviet Union. This was probably around 5 years after the fall of the Soviet Union so these people were interesting to work with to say the least.

After 9/11 a combination of tighter restrictions on Russian guest workers and the Russian businessman we dealt with being a shady jackass who stole money from our guest workers caused us a new labor problem.

Around the same time a Colombian businessman approached us about using Latino labor. So we signed a contract with him and we pay him each month and he always keeps our positions filled. The contract guarrantees their legality. They have social security cards. They pay taxes. Everything sounds good on the surface. But I'm guessing most are illegal.

We do have a Colombian veterinarian on staff but we go through a lawyer and a long process of clearing him with a work visa. Once again, this is a position we could fill with an American but this guy is a family member of a former employee that had a known skill level we desired. Merely a personal preference.

The solution in my mind is to allow more guest workers. I would gladly go through the process we go through with the skilled position and show a need to fill the position with a guest worker. As long as the corrupt Mexican government isn't involved.

Interestingly, I asked a central American employee of mine which border was easier to get across, Mexico or the United States. He laughed and said at the Mexico/Guatemala border he just approaches a soldier and asks to do a little business, gives him a little bribe and he can get across. The US is more difficult but usually you can get across in a few tries or pay a coyote.

I hope something can be resolved quickly that maintains a reasonable way for people who demonstrate the need to still get unskilled guest workers. But something that resembles indentured servitude needs to be avoided also.

It's a shitty situation for the United States because Mexico's economic conditions compared to our economic conditions brings this whole migration on. Maybe we should have just taken all of Mexico in the Mexican-American War and the point would be moot today.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by heybrad

Clint... Don't you think this is a bit of wishful thinking to say that a person who is willing to enter the country illegally is going to get a drivers license and then buy insurance? I'm sorry, but I just don't see it happening.

Certainly some will not buy insurance. Maybe most. But they are going to get driver's licenses - they want driver's licenses so they can get bank accounts and send money back to family in Mexico easier. And I think, aside from the insurance issue, there is some value to us in them having official ID. People who get so wound up thinking that a driver's license confers some kind of legitimacy to their residency (it doesn't, by the way) are failing to see how them having a license can benefit the rest of us.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by heybrad

It would certainly open the gates to voter fraud as all it takes to register to vote is a drivers license.

It takes less than that in quite a few states.

[heybrad]

Originally Posted by clintl

People who get so wound up thinking that a driver's license confers some kind of legitimacy to their residency (it doesn't, by the way) are failing to see how them having a license can benefit the rest of us.

It would certainly open the gates to voter fraud as all it takes to register to vote is a drivers license.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by heybrad

It would certainly open the gates to voter fraud as all it takes to register to vote is a drivers license.

That could easily be addressed.

[Greyroofoo]

but will it?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Meanwhile, a little (okay, almost tiny) bit of good news ...
http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/14198402.htm

Posted on Mon, Mar. 27, 2006
Georgia lawmakers reach accord on immigration
SHANNON McCAFFREY
Associated Press

ATLANTA - Georgia House and Senate members reached agreement Monday on sweeping immigration legislation to crack down on adults living in the country illegally and the employers who knowingly hire them.

The state Senate gave the bill final passage by a vote of 39 to 16. The House was expected to take up the measure later this week.

If it is signed into law, Georgia will be the among the first states with legislation tackling such a broad range of immigration issues, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures and advocates from both sides of the aisle.

"They're out of the gate first," said Ann Morse, program director for the National Conference of State Legislatures.

The bill would verify that adults seeking many state-administered benefits - like non-emergency medical care and unemployment checks - are in the country legally. It would also sanction employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, punishing them through the tax code.

Companies seeking state contracts must verify that their workers are not illegal immigrants. The bill would mandate that police officers screen the immigration status of people they arrest. It would put in place strict new human trafficking laws.
...
Tisha Tallman, Southeast regional counsel for the Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Fund, called the Georgia bill "inhumane and potentially unconstitutional." She said a legal challenge was likely.

Mike Hethmon, general counsel for legal arm of the Federation for American Immigration Reform, said he expected other states would follow Georgia's lead and said the bill had been drawn up with an eye to a trip through the courts.

"The bill that's going to be signed, I think, is pretty much lawsuit-proof in constitutional terms," Hethmon said.

As of Feb. 26, legislators in 42 states had introduced 368 bills related to immigration, according to the National Conference on State Legislatures.


Meanwhile, if you'd like to read the full text of the bill yourself, there should be a searchable database (you're looking for Senate Bill 529) at http://www.legis.state.ga.us/

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

OK... this thread basically sucks... but can we at least stop the crazy talk about California being 'returned' to Mexico.

The state of California, by itself, is the 5th largest economy in the world. I can guarantee we'd nuke Mexico City before we let that happen, O.K.? Seriously... it's not even remotely feasible. We'd sooner give the Northeastern United States back to the British, or the territory from the Louisiana Purchase back to the French, or Alaska back to the Russians.

I mean, damn. Even if every latino in the western united states decided to take up arms and "claim" California, there's no way the United States would let that happen. So, please, for the love of God, knock of the crazy talk.

I'd wager that the American flag would be raised over Mexico City (again) first.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by cartman

What are your reasons for disagreeing? They both had large numbers of foreign borns protesting openly on American streets, and neither one was called an invasion. If anything, the demonstrations in LA over the weekend were much less violent, with no reports of violent activity and no one was arrested.

That was the point I was getting at. Just because there are large numbers of people protesting in the streets against a policy doesn't make it an invasion. The discussion steered very far away from the initial invasion discussion.

I agree with your second point, at first the first part of it if you follow. I agree protesting against a policy in large numbers is not an invasion, foreign born protesters or american. The issue i have, is this thread is not about protesting a policy. Here is the first post, in which your original reply was aimed towards:

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Tens of thousands of illegals openly marching in the downtown areas of major cities, waving Mexican flags and chanting 'Mexico! Mexico!" One of the organizations of the event, La Rosa (the Race) openly advocates returning California to Mexican soveriegnty. Why is this not an invasion?

They are not protesting a policy, they are advocating a foreign government, as well as that government taking land away from America. And the assumption is many of those protesters(correct or not) are illegal aliens, which means they are not protected under the constitution with the right to freely protest. Your examples are all over policies, and i agree they are all fine. This is not an issue of policy. I think that if US citizens want to protest, they have every right to. This isnt an issue of are we willing to do their jobs, salary, or anything else. Its as simple as if they are not citizens they dont have the right to protest. Im sure a small contingent of them were, and those can do whatever they want. But id bet a lot of money most were not citizens.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

but will it?

They are not likely to get driver's licenses here in California anyway, so it's a bit of a moot point unless something changes dramatically.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

They are not protesting a policy, they are advocating a foreign government, as well as that government taking land away from America.

They were not. There were plenty of American flags being carried by the protesters, too.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

As usual, folks like Bubba want to control the effect (illegal immigrants) instead of the cause (job no one wants to do because a) they pay below minimum wage and b) they don't adhere to any reasonable workplace standards, such as, oh, working for 18 hours straight without breaks).

Or maybe they: "a) they pay below minimum wage and b) they don't adhere to any reasonable workplace standards, such as, oh, working for 18 hours straight without breaks)/" because employers find cheap illegal workers to do it under the table. Cut their source of illegals and you force them to improve conditions and pay. How about trying out a little better logic next time, though that is a major challenge for a liberal so I "feel your pain"?

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Or maybe they: "a) they pay below minimum wage and b) they don't adhere to any reasonable workplace standards, such as, oh, working for 18 hours straight without breaks)/" because employers find cheap illegal workers to do it under the table. Cut their source of illegals and you force them to improve conditions and pay. How about trying out a little better logic next time, though that is a major challenge for a liberal so I "feel your pain"?

If the problem is poor wages and labor conditions, why not just enforce the labor laws we already have on the books. Building border walls and enacting new legislation to replace existing non-enforced laws seems like a lot of extra effort.