College Football: Week 2 Discussion.....

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

I understand that, but it's not like the kicker barely missed it wide left/right. It was blocked.

+1 - the refs didn't cost them that game. The call was borderline, but you've got to make that kick. It wasn't a barely-blocked one, either, by the looks of it.

[Karlifornia]

I'm pretty sure you guys would feel a bit differently had it been your alma mater on the receiving end of that call..I'm not a Washington guy, but I'd be heartbroken.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

He missed it. Arkansas takes over, 28-27 with 36 seconds to go. My god this is going to be a crazy season.

I'm thrilled we won, of course, but I take a much more pessimistic view.

We struggled to beat two teams we by all rights should've blown out of the water in terms of talent level. The season's going to take an ugly turn if things stay the way they are and the ugliness starts next week against Texas.

[MJ4H]

You do realize this is a near total rebuilding project, right? I'll take any wins we can get this season. To say Hootie Dale left the cupboard bare is a bit of an understatement.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

You do realize this is a near total rebuilding project, right? I'll take any wins we can get this season. To say Hootie Dale left the cupboard bare is a bit of an understatement.

Oh I know it's a rebuilding project. I have us tabbed for maybe 4 or 5 wins this year, with these first two games being half that total. Being bowl-eligible or getting to a bowl game would be a fantastic season.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

I'm pretty sure you guys would feel a bit differently had it been your alma mater on the receiving end of that call..I'm not a Washington guy, but I'd be heartbroken.

Of course it was a bad call. So what? Line up and kick the extra point and go to overtime.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Celeval

+1 - the refs didn't cost them that game. The call was borderline, but you've got to make that kick. It wasn't a barely-blocked one, either, by the looks of it.

I could be wrong but I don't think anyone said it costs them the game. Most just think it was a bad call.

[Buccaneer]

Middle Tennessee St. beats an ACC team??

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Of course it was a bad call. So what? Line up and kick the extra point and go to overtime.

Yes, Vic....I get it...they still had to kick the EP....But if you're telling me there isn't a difference (especially in college ball) between a 19 yard EP and a 36 yarder, then I guess we have different perspectives.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

Yes, Vic....I get it...they still had to kick the EP....But if you're telling me there isn't a difference (especially in college ball) between a 19 yard EP and a 36 yarder, then I guess we have different perspectives.

The only case they could possibly have would have been if they barely missed the XP. It's not like the guy was kicking a 60 yard FG. BYU collapsed the line of scrimmage and blocked it. It wouldn't have mattered if the ball was snapped from the 3 yard line or the 15 yard line, they still would have blocked the kick.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

The only case they could possibly have would have been if they barely missed the XP. It's not like the guy was kicking a 60 yard FG. BYU collapsed the line of scrimmage and blocked it. It wouldn't have mattered if the ball was snapped from the 3 yard line or the 15 yard line, they still would have blocked the kick.

Who knows what happens if U-Dub is kicking it from the 3. Maybe the BYU block team isn't smelling blood in the water like they were on the actual EP...Maybe they take it to be more of a foregone conclusion, and don't push through. Maybe the kicker adjusts his kicking trajectory. Maybe a combination of both. Maybe not. Maybe it still gets blocked. I don't know, but the ref really didn't need to make that call. I personally think any celebration calls are ridiculous, but arbitrary limit rules on infractions that have zero effect on gameplay during key situations are a case of a ref trying to be the star of the show.

[BrianD]

How many years has throwing the football as part of a TD celebration been an unsportsmanlike penalty? 20? More? It is the same rule that hasn't allowed a spike in the end zone. It isn't like you can claim ignorance of the rule.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

I don't know, but the ref really didn't need to make that call. I personally think any celebration calls are ridiculous, but arbitrary limit rules on infractions that have zero effect on gameplay during key situations are a case of a ref trying to be the star of the show.

It's a point of emphasis this year to NCAA officials so observers are watching it closely. If the guy doesn't make the call, he gets chewed out by his superior, maybe he never does another D-1 game. He wasn't trying to be the star of the show...he was enforcing the rule. He didn't miss the block that got the kick blocked. .

[Dr. Sak]

Just got back from the Penn State game. I thought they'd win, but not the way they did. I was very impressed at the way the defense played without Evans and Karoma. The offense opened up a little, and Clark threw the ball really nice. He has the ability of Robinson to run the ball, but I think he is a better passer.

With two games against Syracuse and Temple coming up next, we won't find out how good this team really is until they play Illinois at the end of the month.

[Noop]

Still complaining about that call eh? The ref called it by the book although in that situation I think an exception could have been made. That being said Washington's kick protection is the reason why they lost, not the ref.

[cartman]

Martinez of UTEP just tried a 65 yard FG. It was just short, and Texas had a guy camped under the goal post. He ran it out, and almost pulled a Devin Hester, getting the ball all the way back to the UTEP 35.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Noop

Still complaining about that call eh? The ref called it by the book although in that situation I think an exception could have been made.

Could you imagine the outrage by BYU fans if that call isn't made? Very hard to justify not calling something that is spelled out explicitly in the rules.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Terrible performance by OU in their 52-26 win over Cincinnati. The special teams and defense were horrendous. Props to the offense, who put up almost 600 total yards against a Bearcat defense that returned 10 starters from their #13 nationally ranked 2007 defense. To add insult to injury, the defense let Cincinnati score on the last play of the game.

Terrible? Nah... You're definitely right about the kick coverage. They certainly have to do something about that because it was really bad. And the defense was very mediocre in the first half. In the 2nd, though, they shut down Cincy's offense completely. The final score was pretty weak and came against the OU backups.

I was really impressed by OU's offense. They were methodical and just did whatever they wanted most of the day, surprising to me given the Cincy defense's reputation. On the flip side, Cincy's offense was better than I expected. It's too bad that QB got hurt because he has some talent and the backup looked really poor in the little action he had.

[Noop]

I hope OU has a good backup QB because Bradford is looking like a top 10 pick.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by Noop

I hope OU has a good backup QB because Bradford is looking like a top 10 pick.

They have a young kid named Landry Jones that was somewhat highly-touted and has plenty of ability.

But honestly, I'd be surprised if Bradford leaves early. He's a lifelong OU fan and a really humble, almost meek kid. I think he plays four years and gains some necessary strength in the process.

[Vegas Vic]

For you diehards, there's one more televised game getting ready to start -- Weber State at Hawaii on ESPN Gameplan. This one is worth watching just to listen to the two Hawaii announcers. These guys are hilarious.

[Lathum]

The UW loss can't be blamed on the refs but is still heartbreaking. Locker is viewed as a savior up here and this win would have been his signature win to hopefully get the program started in the right direction. It was also a win Ty needed, it is devestating for the program the way it happened, they would have been better off losing 35-7.

[kingnebwsu]

Crazy day of college football.

As an OSU fan, I'm freaking out pretty hard about next week's game at USC. USC is scary good, but I think barely winning today will have some positive effect for this week's practices. I still don't think it will be enough, but we'll see. At least everyone all week will say that USC is better than the SEC teams that romped Ohio State and that USC will win by 8 TD's in the first half. That will help motivate Ohio State. Still, I pick USC 27-13. Hopefully OSU pulls out the win though

Bummer about the BYU/UW ending. Terrible call to make...but it was the right call. They should change the rule if it's really that egregious. Or say "no celebration penalties under 2 minutes" or something. Those are the options, but as the official said in the press release...it wasn't a judgment call.

Miami hung with Florida for more than a half. Then UF took over. The Gators are going to be a scary team this year. I think Miami has a chance to steal the ACC in what is a bigtime down year for the conference. Look for Miami to win 10+ games in 2010.

East Carolina is scary the last 2 weeks. It's tough for any team to go undefeated, but they have a chance. If you're a fan of WVU, are you questioning your choice of head coach more than you were 24 hours ago? That was the big thing I was thinking as I watched ECU dominate WVU. ECU should be in the top 10 based solely on quality of wins. I'll make sure to put them there in my vote of the FOFC top 25

[cartman]

As I put in the other thread, Arkansas State is looking tough for a Sun Belt team. They beat Texas A&M last week, and laid a big boy school style beat down on FCS Texas Southern 83-10.

[mckerney]

Efficient outing by Adam Weber in Minnesota's win, 22-26 for 233 and 3 TDs with another rushing TD, along with no turnovers. Him holding onto the ball with the defense forcing a couple turnovers seems to be the biggest difference. Good to see Weber appears to be progressing as a sophomore, hopefully it continues. But for now it just feels good to be 2-0 after last season.

[Vegas Vic]

huh-WAH-ee goes up 21-17 on Weber State in the 3rd quarter (phonetic pronunciation there for the home grown announcers).

[Karlifornia]

I can't believe the amount of heartless pricks there are in college football...but what do I know? I'm just a Stanford supporter...I'm like a Marlins fan. I don't know shit.

[MacroGuru]

The ref for the UW/BYU game was quoted as saying it wasn't a judgment call, the minute the ball went up in the air like that he had to throw the flag.

Ty has admitted the flag had to be thrown.

Still, I truly feel we kept Washington in that game with the piss poor defense we played. I wouldn't have been shocked of leaving Washington with the loss.

it sucks, it's the rule and the refs are getting lambasted constantly on t.v., internet message boards, email chains and diners right now. It's crazy.

Lets face it, the Pac 10 officiating is not the greatest out there and has messed up some serious games over the years.

[SFL Cat]

The ref made the right call in the BYU-Wash game, but I do feel for the Huskies. Football can be such an emotional game, and in the heat and excitement of the moment, I can't say a lot of people wouldn't have done the same thing...and it wasn't too outrageous, especially compared to some of the stuff we've seen in the NFL. Still, as someone else has said, its been the rule for next to forever in college football. And there was no more pressure on that kick than there would have been if it was a regular field goal to tie or win the game. I bet Locker never makes that mistake again.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

I can't believe the amount of heartless pricks there are in college football...but what do I know? I'm just a Stanford supporter...I'm like a Marlins fan. I don't know shit.

I think the difference is deciding if this was a bad call or a bad rule. There shouldn't be any debate about this being a bad call since it is explicitly stated in the rules. It wasn't something similar to wording in a rule, it was a perfect match.

What is up for debate is whether this rule makes sense and should be in the books. I hate excessive celebrating at any level and would love to see it all stamped out. One moment of truly excited action hardly seems to qualify as excessive celebration. I don't know where you draw the line, but that is where the debate can come in.

Bottom line, leave the refs alone, yell at the NCAA rules committee.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by kingnebwsu

East Carolina is scary the last 2 weeks. It's tough for any team to go undefeated, but they have a chance. If you're a fan of WVU, are you questioning your choice of head coach more than you were 24 hours ago? That was the big thing I was thinking as I watched ECU dominate WVU. ECU should be in the top 10 based solely on quality of wins. I'll make sure to put them there in my vote of the FOFC top 25

I think most WVU fans think that Coach Stewart is a great man, but we are/were in a wait-and-see mode. The motion changes and move to a more passing offense made me nervous, as we returned White, Devine, and all 5 OL starters (and 2 of 3 top backups) from an 11-2 team. I wasn't sure that moving to a more balanced offense would be a great move this season with that type of experience and talent returning. I think we also miss FB Owen Schmitt, in the running game, a lot more than people realized. The defense lost a lot in the front 3 and the top 3 CBs and it certainly shows. I have more faith that the offense can/will get on track than the D.

I'm still in wait-and-see mode. I think our staff (minus the HC, of course) is much better than it was last season, but if we keep playing like this, during Pat White's (+ 80% of the OL's) senior season (this team has won 11 games for 3 straight seasons), it will be hard to think that things will not get much, much worse.

[molson]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Could you imagine the outrage by BYU fans if that call isn't made? Very hard to justify not calling something that is spelled out explicitly in the rules.

Nobody would have noticed.

There was nothing remotely unusual about that. If someone isolated every touchdown of the the last College Football season, you would see dozens of TDs ending with more of a throw than that and no flag.

"By the book" there would be a penalty after almost every touchdown, and after most plays. "the player in possession immediately must return the ball to an an official or leave it near the dead ball spot".

Immediately means immediately. You better not take one step with the ball. No wasted motion. Don't even hold it over your head or anything. That rules is broken constantly.

The press release that this was not a "judgment call" was just silly.

And this sentiment of "So what? Line up and kick the extra point and go to overtime" is one of the most annoying things in sports, like when someone says, "Don't like that he's celebrating - stop him from scoring". I mean, why didn't Washington just score a TD on every play yesterday? None of this would have mattered.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Could you imagine the outrage by BYU fans if that call isn't made? Very hard to justify not calling something that is spelled out explicitly in the rules.

Originally Posted by molson

Nobody would have noticed.

100% in agreement. I've seen plenty of TDs scored against Rutgers, but even a nut like me (I'm the guy in the section yelling for holds, clips, blocks in the back) has never yelled for or sought out an excessive celebration penalty.

That being said, it was the right call unfortunately, and I'm glad Willingham didn't use that as an excuse.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by BrianD

How many years has throwing the football as part of a TD celebration been an unsportsmanlike penalty? 20? More? It is the same rule that hasn't allowed a spike in the end zone. It isn't like you can claim ignorance of the rule.

If you think anyone is *thinking* of rules or anything for that matter, I'm seriously going to question if you have ever competed in anything more serious than pick up go fish games as a child. There is no thought, he didnt start dancing the Macarena, he flung his arms in the airand let go of the football.

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Of course it was a bad call. So what? Line up and kick the extra point and go to overtime.

Ok, but what about the fact that no one on the kicking team was prepared because the plan was to go for two?

And BTW, most kickers do use a different kick for EP than any other kick. On an EP many kickers will simply chip under the ball to pop it up as high as possible, since distance andd aim arent real important.

All that said, I am most disappointed because Ty didnt have a chance to go for two, fail miserably, and let us have a great debate about whether or not he should be fired and if he was fired by ND because he is black....the refs robbed that from us.

Originally Posted by Logan

100% in agreement. I've seen plenty of TDs scored against Rutgers, but even a nut like me (I'm the guy in the section yelling for holds, clips, blocks in the back) has never yelled for or sought out an excessive celebration penalty.

That being said, it was the right call unfortunately, and I'm glad Willingham didn't use that as an excuse.

I agree with everything here 100%.

I think the call is debateable (was it exesivelly high? did it cause a delay in the ref retreiving it?) but in the end probably right.

That said the rule needs to be changed. I dont wwant to see any choreographed bullshit, but spontaneous displays of emotion need to be allowed. BTW watchin sportscenter I think I saw 9 plays yesterday where the scoring team should have been penalized.


OK, onto the local scene. GT is better than many anticipated and their running attack scares the beejeeezus out of me.

Clemson has a terrible O line, and their seconday was certainly not interested in the second half yesterday....NCSU shouldnt pose any problems next week , but GT, Wake and FSU scare me.... we need to grow up quick.

I think ECU is good, and I am not so sure Skip will leave next year. By all accounts he loves the beach scene and for any who have been to Greenville, it is the sort of town that would allow him many recruiting advantages....and no one will notice when thug players get arrested. ARRRGGHHHH could be a sound for a few years to come.

MTSU? Really? Really!? ....Ok fat man is done in Maryland.

Bill Stewart was the wrong hire, and WVU was never (this year) that good. BTW yesterday was the first time the mountaineeers were held w/o a TD since 2001...IOW the year before Rich Rod arrived.

Maybe Shannon is a better coach than most thought. The Canes certainly looked respectable early last night. To spin a popular game lately, The best team in the SEC sure seemed to have a tough time with the 5th or 6th best ACC team (OK Miami is better than 5th or 6th, and Florida may not be #1...and yes I admit the ACC sucks.)

[rowech]

Kick form on an extra point is completely different than on a field goal guys, less steps being the most important factor. It doesn't take nearly as long to get an extra point up as a field goal.

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

I think most WVU fans think that Coach Stewart is a great man, but we are/were in a wait-and-see mode. The motion changes and move to a more passing offense made me nervous, as we returned White, Devine, and all 5 OL starters (and 2 of 3 top backups) from an 11-2 team. I wasn't sure that moving to a more balanced offense would be a great move this season with that type of experience and talent returning. I think we also miss FB Owen Schmitt, in the running game, a lot more than people realized. The defense lost a lot in the front 3 and the top 3 CBs and it certainly shows. I have more faith that the offense can/will get on track than the D.

I'm still in wait-and-see mode. I think our staff (minus the HC, of course) is much better than it was last season, but if we keep playing like this, during Pat White's (+ 80% of the OL's) senior season (this team has won 11 games for 3 straight seasons), it will be hard to think that things will not get much, much worse.

The defensive problems are a much bigger concern, in my opinion, and we have the same DC over there. The guys just look like they are thinking way way too much and not attacking whatsoever. We're getting plowed over a lot more than we're delivering blows and WRs are running free on every pass play. We just look incredibly soft on D. You can chalk a lot of that up to inexperience, but the coaching deserves blame to look as bad as they did against Villanova and not get any of it corrected at all for ECU.

I feel like the offense never got a chance to get into a rhythm, so it's harder to judge. My primary concern is getting outhit and outhustled by ECU on both sides of the ball. That rarely happened over the last couple of years, but WVU has lost that hard edge that made us good seemingly overnight. We look soft. The lack of fire or anything other than "aw shucks" coming from Stew does make me wonder if we made a mistake.

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

BTW yesterday was the first time the mountaineeers were held w/o a TD since 2001...IOW the year before Rich Rod arrived.

That was RR's first year. We went 3-8 and it was our worst season since the late 70's.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by timmynausea

The defensive problems are a much bigger concern, in my opinion, and we have the same DC over there. The guys just look like they are thinking way way too much and not attacking whatsoever. We're getting plowed over a lot more than we're delivering blows and WRs are running free on every pass play. We just look incredibly soft on D. You can chalk a lot of that up to inexperience, but the coaching deserves blame to look as bad as they did against Villanova and not get any of it corrected at all for ECU.

I feel like the offense never got a chance to get into a rhythm, so it's harder to judge. My primary concern is getting outhit and outhustled by ECU on both sides of the ball. That rarely happened over the last couple of years, but WVU has lost that hard edge that made us good seemingly overnight. We look soft. The lack of fire or anything other than "aw shucks" coming from Stew does make me wonder if we made a mistake.

Agreed on Stewart yesterday. He had that "deer in the headlights" look during the questionable fumble by White. I'm not sure what the appropriate call from the ref should have been, but it was close enough that it should have been reviewed and he looked like he didn't knokw what to do.

I think Pat McAfee was the only positive for us yesterday.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

If you think anyone is *thinking* of rules or anything for that matter, I'm seriously going to question if you have ever competed in anything more serious than pick up go fish games as a child. There is no thought, he didnt start dancing the Macarena, he flung his arms in the airand let go of the football.

I've never played college ball, but I've played plenty of high school sports and other lower-than-college levels of sports. I also played skill-positions in football, running back and split end. I also scored plenty of TDs. Care to guess how many times I had to think about what I could or couldn't do after a score? Yep, zero. After years of playing organized football, you know you can't spike the ball, you can't throw the ball, you can't do much of anything with the ball. This isn't a rule you have to think about because it is one you play with for years.

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Agreed on Stewart yesterday. He had that "deer in the headlights" look during the questionable fumble by White. I'm not sure what the appropriate call from the ref should have been, but it was close enough that it should have been reviewed and he looked like he didn't knokw what to do.

I've had a hard time trying to get through with this on the WVU board, so I'll post it here. Here's the rule about when a loose ball is ruled out of bounds:

ARTICLE 3. a. A ball not in player possession, other than a kick that scores
a field goal, is out of bounds when it touches the ground, a player, a game
official or anything else that is on or outside a boundary line.

By my interpretation, if that is ruled a fumble by Pat White, then he is clearly touching it with his left hand while his right hand is touching OOB and the ball is considered OOB. If it's not a fumble yet, then he is ruled out as his right hand is touching out of bounds. It should've been WVU ball either way.

[MJ4H]

Posted in the Sun Bowl thread, too, but everyone might enjoy this.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by molson

Nobody would have noticed.

There was nothing remotely unusual about that. If someone isolated every touchdown of the the last College Football season, you would see dozens of TDs ending with more of a throw than that and no flag.

"By the book" there would be a penalty after almost every touchdown, and after most plays. "the player in possession immediately must return the ball to an an official or leave it near the dead ball spot".

Let me help you with the part you missed:

"This prohibits:
...
(c) Throwing the ball high into the air."

Argue the definition of "immediately" all you want. The action was explicitly against the rules and that is why it isn't a judgment call. Like was stated earlier, if the officials don't make this call...considering it is a point of emphasis this year...those officials may not be officiating D1 football anymore.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by timmynausea

By my interpretation, if that is ruled a fumble by Pat White, then he is clearly touching it with his left hand while his right hand is touching OOB and the ball is considered OOB. If it's not a fumble yet, then he is ruled out as his right hand is touching out of bounds. It should've been WVU ball either way.

This is a correct interpretation. A player is considered out of bounds if any part of his is touching the sideline. A loose ball that touches a player out of bounds immediately becomes dead as it too is out of bounds.

[miami_fan]

Then we can expect to see several new officials since, as stated earlier, similar celebration calls were not called.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Let me help you with the part you missed:

"This prohibits:
...
(c) Throwing the ball high into the air."

Argue the definition of "immediately" all you want. The action was explicitly against the rules and that is why it isn't a judgment call. Like was stated earlier, if the officials don't make this call...considering it is a point of emphasis this year...those officials may not be officiating D1 football anymore.

And this ball was "high" in the air? Did it ever go above the QBs head?

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by rowech

And this ball was "high" in the air? Did it ever go above the QBs head?

Did you not see the play? I'd say it went at least 20 yards in the air. It went out of the frame of the camera, so it's hard to say.

So yeah, it was high.

[larrymcg421]

We can argue over whether it was the right call or not (it certainly wasn't called the same in all games Saturday), but it's a fucking stupid rule. This is football, not a tea party.

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by rowech

And this ball was "high" in the air? Did it ever go above the QBs head?

Quite a bit above his head. It left the camera's field of view and the shot was still quite wide. I'd have to guess it went 20+ft into the air.

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by rowech

And this ball was "high" in the air? Did it ever go above the QBs head?

Higher trajectory than most three-point shots.

[rowech]

Fair enough...better view than the views I had seen.