NHL EHM Beta Demo available

[henry296]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

What about a "potential" or "talent" rating? Is there any way for me to know which guys are considered good prospects?

Click on the player, and go to Action. Select Coach Report. They will let you know the quality of the prospect.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by henry296

Dola... The fake Ryan Whitney just signed with Memphis, which is a Leafs team, but he has an NHL release clause. More signs of the European influence, I think.

Not a European influence. That happens all of the time. Many guys sign with lower league professional teams in the US with NHL release clauses every season. Just because you own their NHL rights does not mean they cannot sign with a professional team. It just means they cannot be signed by an NHL team. Every year some college guys whose NHL rights are owned, sign with ECHL, and UHL teams, and perhaps even CHL teams. The NHL team retains their NHL rights for one season, and then they lose those rights if they do not sign the player to a contract (and he is then considered a UFA, as far as the NHL goes). Often times, players sign contracts with ECHL clubs that allow them to leave if an AHL team signs them, as well.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by henry296

Click on the player, and go to Action. Select Coach Report. They will let you know the quality of the prospect.

OK. But nothing like, say, a top prospects list for the league or for a team?

[Anthony]

i have to say, i WILL buy the game the first day it comes out. i consider myself not a hockey fan, but someone who follows the NHL loosely (as in in any given year i know which teams are contenders and pretenders). the fact that the Rangers have been sucking the last handful of years has made hockey the forgotten stepchild in NYC.

when i buy the game i'll focus more on the NHLers, but if some kid from the Panthers' minor league affiliate has the wrong birthplace or height, i can't say i'm going to lose sleep over it. i know others take this thing seriously, but what i want to focus on is having the CM gamepley - with dealing with personalities/ego's/media - properly transferred to an american sport. minor hiccups that a casual fan would miss such as vitals/histories for minor leagues (things i don't give a fuck about, to be honest) will go unnoticed by most likely more than half the purchasers of this game.

just putting it into perspective.

[Tekneek]

Right now, not every NHL team has the right players under contract or the rights to the correct players. Those kinds of things WILL be noticed.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Right now, not every NHL team has the right players under contract or the rights to the correct players. Those kinds of things WILL be noticed.

Please bear in mind that the 'beta demo' has far from the final database - the data in the demo is from December and the internal database is now much more up to date (remember we had to give the demo to the magazine people for master quite a while a go) ....

We've also opened a forum for data error reporting on sigames.com to ensure that last minute checks can be done to make the database as accurate as possible for GM.

There will be a GM demo when the game goes off for production which will contain the final database if you have any worries about this side of things then I recommend that you give that a try when its available in the near(ish) future.

[Karim]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

Apparently his visible ratings are like NHL players, but his actual ratings are much lowere? If anyone knows about this from CM, could you please explain how people are supposed to compare players from different leagues? Is there a way to tell that Crosby's or some guy in Europe's ratings are artificially inflated or actual?

This is the way CM works and is actually quite well done, IMO.

Every player has an actual rating and potential rating up to 200. This is of course hidden. A player like Crosby may have a potential rating of 190 but unless things fall into place (your guidance, right team, right time, no injuries, etc.,) he may never reach it.

Actual ratings cannot be compared directly. The quality of the league has to be taken into consideration. Just because a guy has a 15+ in a rating doesn't mean he'd be a 15+ in the NHL, although visibily it would still say "15". If he was from a very low league, his actual and potential ratings out of 200 would undoubtedly be much lower than the average NHLer and would struggle. It's up to you and your scouts to find this out.

MV or someone more details can explain further but that's the jist of it.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Karim

Every player has an actual rating and potential rating up to 200. This is of course hidden. A player like Crosby may have a potential rating of 190 but unless things fall into place (your guidance, right team, right time, no injuries, etc.,) he may never reach it.

I guess what I'm having trouble with is: is there anyway to see who has good potential and who doesn't, short of asking the coach each and every time?

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

There will be a GM demo when the game goes off for production which will contain the final database if you have any worries about this side of things then I recommend that you give that a try when its available in the near(ish) future.

Oh, I know. I've been posting a lot of stuff up there, and a lot of them are causing changes to be made in the current DB. So I am finding things in the beta demo that nobody has yet corrected. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to go through everything so I'm left hoping that others are picking up the slack. I've been in touch with researchers. I was not able to make myself available before, unfortunately, but they know I am available now and am willing to help. I understand they had a lot of people drop the ball on them and have said that the buggered DB is probably a blessing in disguise if it draws out people who can really help out.

I'm definitely looking forward to the real demo and expect to see a lot of the issues resolved.

[Maple Leafs]

Hey guys... what's the "forms" column mean? Is that some sort of rating of how well a guy played in his last few games? What's the scale (0-10)?

[henry296]

Form is the players rating for the last 5 games. The Avg Rating is for the season.

[henry296]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Not a European influence. That happens all of the time. Many guys sign with lower league professional teams in the US with NHL release clauses every season. Just because you own their NHL rights does not mean they cannot sign with a professional team. It just means they cannot be signed by an NHL team. Every year some college guys whose NHL rights are owned, sign with ECHL, and UHL teams, and perhaps even CHL teams. The NHL team retains their NHL rights for one season, and then they lose those rights if they do not sign the player to a contract (and he is then considered a UFA, as far as the NHL goes). Often times, players sign contracts with ECHL clubs that allow them to leave if an AHL team signs them, as well.

Thanks. I just never heard of it happening. It is strange that many top college players are signing with minor Pro teams which is unusual.

[Maple Leafs]

Sigh... OK. Talk me through this like I'm an idiot.

I've been playing with "Coach Games Yourself" set to "No", but the other options set to "Yes". If I understand it right, this should mean that the coach handles the game, but tries to use my lines and tactics wherever possible. Yes?

So I've noticed as I sim through games that occasionally when I go to thelineup screen I see that the AI has made changes. Fourth liners are dropped out of the lineup, my lines are mixed up, that sort of thing. Slightly annoying (I don't like having to set this stuff every single day) but probably understandable -- after all, things happen in games and the coach will have to make some decisions along the way.

But as I get further into the season (up to mid-November now), it's happening more and more often. I just went into my tactics screen, and almost fell over. The lines were a complete mess -- fourth liners playing on the first line, some guys not playing anywhere, etc.

But even worse, some of my best players were out of the lineup entirely. Brian Leetch was a healthy scratch, despite easily being my best player. And to top if off, forwards were assigned to play defense. Nik Antropov was on my top defensive pairing (Leaf fans, take a moment to ponder the implications of that one).

This leads me to two alarming possibilities:
- The AI has decided to completely ignore the lineups I'm setting and just use it's own, even though I told it not to; and
- The AI is really, really terrible.

Please, tell me I have a setting wrong somewhere. Tell me there's some hidden "Use softest, slowest forwards as defencemen" option that I've accidentally check. Please?

[Johnny93g]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Sigh... OK. Talk me through this like I'm an idiot.

I've been playing with "Coach Games Yourself" set to "No", but the other options set to "Yes". If I understand it right, this should mean that the coach handles the game, but tries to use my lines and tactics wherever possible. Yes?

So I've noticed as I sim through games that occasionally when I go to thelineup screen I see that the AI has made changes. Fourth liners are dropped out of the lineup, my lines are mixed up, that sort of thing. Slightly annoying (I don't like having to set this stuff every single day) but probably understandable -- after all, things happen in games and the coach will have to make some decisions along the way.

But as I get further into the season (up to mid-November now), it's happening more and more often. I just went into my tactics screen, and almost fell over. The lines were a complete mess -- fourth liners playing on the first line, some guys not playing anywhere, etc.

But even worse, some of my best players were out of the lineup entirely. Brian Leetch was a healthy scratch, despite easily being my best player. And to top if off, forwards were assigned to play defense. Nik Antropov was on my top defensive pairing (Leaf fans, take a moment to ponder the implications of that one).

This leads me to two alarming possibilities:
- The AI has decided to completely ignore the lineups I'm setting and just use it's own, even though I told it not to; and
- The AI is really, really terrible.

Please, tell me I have a setting wrong somewhere. Tell me there's some hidden "Use softest, slowest forwards as defencemen" option that I've accidentally check. Please?

I tried the option of not coaching games....and the computer kept calling up and playing Craig Mills over Alex Mogilny....so ive abandoned that....and just try to sim the in game stuff as quickly as possible.....The comp doesn't seem to touch the lines there...oh and i really dont think you have the settings wrong....and yes....ive pondered Antropov playing D....speechless......

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Johnny93g

I tried the option of not coaching games....and the computer kept calling up and playing Craig Mills over Alex Mogilny....so ive abandoned that....and just try to sim the in game stuff as quickly as possible.....The comp doesn't seem to touch the lines there...oh and i really dont think you have the settings wrong....and yes....ive pondered Antropov playing D....speechless......

Just simmed another game, and now Harold Druken (!) is playing defense. Just bizarre.

The good news is that, from scanning other teams, it seems like the AI is doing just fine for CPU teams.

[Chubby]

Marc knows about this bug in regards to turning "Coach Games Yourself" off, he said it was prob fixed in the new version when I talked to him about it a couple of days ago.

[Tekneek]

My experience is that it plays a forward in a defensive slot if he is a much more talented (by the ratings, not by the name) player than that other defenseman you have. As far as players being called up, and played over other players, it may have to do with ratings issues. After all, the game does not know who Mogilny is, or that other guy. It's just crunching numbers.

[Karim]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

I guess what I'm having trouble with is: is there anyway to see who has good potential and who doesn't, short of asking the coach each and every time?

I don't think so. There is no visible potential rating. A combination of coach, scout and your analysis is used to determine if the guy has potential or not.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Chubby

Marc knows about this bug in regards to turning "Coach Games Yourself" off, he said it was prob fixed in the new version when I talked to him about it a couple of days ago.

Good to know, thanks.

[Simms]

Well, at least we know the scouting system works okay.

[Simms]

Heh....the secret is out, I guess.

[henry296]

Another comment... Goalies are pulled to early. Most times it is with 1:30 to play.. my experience it usually about 1 minute.

[Hurst2112]

Originally Posted by henry296

Another comment... Goalies are pulled to early. Most times it is with 1:30 to play.. my experience it usually about 1 minute.

I have no problem with pulling the goalie with 1:30 left to play. I tend to pull with 2:00 left.

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

i have to say, i WILL buy the game the first day it comes out. i consider myself not a hockey fan, but someone who follows the NHL loosely (as in in any given year i know which teams are contenders and pretenders). the fact that the Rangers have been sucking the last handful of years has made hockey the forgotten stepchild in NYC.

when i buy the game i'll focus more on the NHLers, but if some kid from the Panthers' minor league affiliate has the wrong birthplace or height, i can't say i'm going to lose sleep over it. i know others take this thing seriously, but what i want to focus on is having the CM gamepley - with dealing with personalities/ego's/media - properly transferred to an american sport. minor hiccups that a casual fan would miss such as vitals/histories for minor leagues (things i don't give a fuck about, to be honest) will go unnoticed by most likely more than half the purchasers of this game.

just putting it into perspective.

A game that has great gameplay, is an awesome thing. But having rosters that have some pretty big errors (height, weight, birthplace, contracts, etc.) takes away from the game, when you know that the errors are wrong. Obviously if you don't it's not going to matter much... but I want realistic rosters, and a good game... not just one or the other.

[bbor]

Quit pulling your goalies,this is not an adult board

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by Karim

This is the way CM works and is actually quite well done, IMO.

Every player has an actual rating and potential rating up to 200. This is of course hidden. A player like Crosby may have a potential rating of 190 but unless things fall into place (your guidance, right team, right time, no injuries, etc.,) he may never reach it.

Actual ratings cannot be compared directly. The quality of the league has to be taken into consideration. Just because a guy has a 15+ in a rating doesn't mean he'd be a 15+ in the NHL, although visibily it would still say "15". If he was from a very low league, his actual and potential ratings out of 200 would undoubtedly be much lower than the average NHLer and would struggle. It's up to you and your scouts to find this out.

MV or someone more details can explain further but that's the jist of it.

I kind of figured as much, but thanks for explaing it. But how can you tell if a guy's actually any good, if you can't make straight comparisons?

For example if I have a fringe Left Wing on the Leafs, and there's a guy tearing up some Eruopean leagues. Lets say I wanted to look into replacing my fringe player with the European guy... how can I make a comparison if the ratings mean different things?

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by henry296

Another comment... Goalies are pulled to early. Most times it is with 1:30 to play.. my experience it usually about 1 minute.

Thats not really a rare thing... it really depends on where the puck is. If the team thats down is having a good rush, the goalie will get pulled... if they are on their heels and the play is bouncing back and forth than they usually wait till the one minute mark.

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

My experience is that it plays a forward in a defensive slot if he is a much more talented (by the ratings, not by the name) player than that other defenseman you have. As far as players being called up, and played over other players, it may have to do with ratings issues. After all, the game does not know who Mogilny is, or that other guy. It's just crunching numbers.

If thats the case you have to question how good the ratings are if Mills is a better player than Mogilny.

I hate to be so critical of the game, but there are alot of things that are either minor annoyances or huge problems. Maybe it's partly due to my in experience with the CM engine, but if thats the case I'm wondering how a newbie (who has never touched a sports sim) who is potentially going to buy this at EB is going to be able to get into it.

[sachmo71]

Guys,

You really should relax about the rosters. There was some serious work done between this demo and the final database merge. On top of that, there is supposed to be another team going over the player data again. Most, if not all, of the roster issues should be cleared up.

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

Guys,

You really should relax about the rosters. There was some serious work done between this demo and the final database merge. On top of that, there is supposed to be another team going over the player data again. Most, if not all, of the roster issues should be cleared up.

I know, but the only rosters we've seen are these. And I'm sure people playing the demo have caught errors that had been overlooked by the research teams, and thats what we are trying to do... get all the errors out of the way.

I think a good idea would be for SI to release a beta file (pdf, html, or txt) of the rosters once they've done their final review of them. That way any minor errors that had been missed can be caught.

[Johnny93g]

I share all of Joe Canadian's concerns.....I like alot of the stuff ive seen...but im am worried about the rosters....If you dont know hockey...then you wont know whats wrong with the rosters.....But for us hockey perverts.....we will notice every little detail thats incorrect.....

I would of like to have been notified that the world juniors had started....and what prospects on my team are playing in it....like the original EHM

Id like to see news for the whole league...not just mine....I didnt even know anyone had made a trade tell I found the league transasction screen......Juniior teams are trading alot.....

Oh, another thing...why can I offer Christian Dube all kinds of money.....and I can only offer Ed Belfour, who wants a extention, only 10 grand a year...wtf

[Karim]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

But how can you tell if a guy's actually any good, if you can't make straight comparisons? For example if I have a fringe Left Wing on the Leafs, and there's a guy tearing up some Eruopean leagues. Lets say I wanted to look into replacing my fringe player with the European guy... how can I make a comparison if the ratings mean different things?

Send some of your best scouts to get a report on the guy, take a look at stats and the level of competition of the European league, look at his history to see if he's a failed NHLer or a guy who never developed or developed late... Just like real life. There's lots of talent in Europe. Some would/will make it in the NHL, other's won't.

That's part of the fun!

[3ric]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

I kind of figured as much, but thanks for explaing it. But how can you tell if a guy's actually any good, if you can't make straight comparisons?

For example if I have a fringe Left Wing on the Leafs, and there's a guy tearing up some Eruopean leagues. Lets say I wanted to look into replacing my fringe player with the European guy... how can I make a comparison if the ratings mean different things?

Like this:

[Ragone]

Is there any hidden ratings? like for example Cheapshots/fighting and dirty play? both of which Mr Bertuzzi above would score high in..

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Ragone

Is there any hidden ratings? like for example Cheapshots/fighting and dirty play? both of which Mr Bertuzzi above would score high in..

Here's a hint...yes.

CR

[Eaglesfan27]

If it is anything like CM, there will be MANY hidden ratings.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

I think a good idea would be for SI to release a beta file (pdf, html, or txt) of the rosters once they've done their final review of them. That way any minor errors that had been missed can be caught.

Trouble is we're still actively updating the database at the moment and anything we post will be out of date by the time you see it ....

The GM demo will give you an indication of the accuracy of the final research in the 'boxed' copy of the game and its fairly likely that we'll do a downloadable data update shortly after the games release if any further data inaccuracies are found in the GM demo version (as we do for CM generally).

Hope this helps,

Marc

[Tekneek]

Putting aside my ranting and raving about the rosters, the researchers have said all the right things to me so far. That gives me the confidence that those issues will be worked through as they arise. I'm hoping to have a hand in that, but if I can't I will continue to post problems I find in the game (though I may not do a whole lot more of it until the gold-mastered demo hits).

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by 3ric

Like this:

Thats a comparison between Bert & Nazzy, two guys in the same league. My post was talking about two guys from different league... I'm assuming all NHL players are rated on the same scale, so I'm not worried about that.

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by Johnny93g

I would of like to have been notified that the world juniors had started....and what prospects on my team are playing in it....like the original EHM

Id like to see news for the whole league...not just mine....I didnt even know anyone had made a trade tell I found the league transasction screen......Juniior teams are trading alot.....

Oh, another thing...why can I offer Christian Dube all kinds of money.....and I can only offer Ed Belfour, who wants a extention, only 10 grand a year...wtf

Three very good points that concern me, I think someone posted that the third one having to do with contracts have been sorted out.

The top two I hadn't realized, but is another addition to my huge concerns list. Although I did think that "big" trades were sent to you, but I could be wrong. If that is the case (only knowing about big trades), it would be nice to have some option to see "big" trades or see "all" trades, within your league.

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Trouble is we're still actively updating the database at the moment and anything we post will be out of date by the time you see it ....

The GM demo will give you an indication of the accuracy of the final research in the 'boxed' copy of the game and its fairly likely that we'll do a downloadable data update shortly after the games release if any further data inaccuracies are found in the GM demo version (as we do for CM generally).

Hope this helps,

Marc

GM Demo? Is that the "gold" demo?

Just to clearify what I was talking about... maybe you guys could think about releasing such a beta list a week or so prior to release. That way database issues could be somewhat cleared up, and ready for an update, on or near final release.

[scooter]

The GM demo is the "Gold Master" demo. It is the gold master code, essentially the game that will be shipped.

As far as a file with the database for you to look over, that is what the GM demo is for. It is better than any database file. You have the entire database in there, and you get to play it

If you still have database issues after playing the GM demo, go post them in the proper forum over at SI and they will try to get them into the data update that Marc talked about.

[3ric]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

Thats a comparison between Bert & Nazzy, two guys in the same league. My post was talking about two guys from different league... I'm assuming all NHL players are rated on the same scale, so I'm not worried about that.

Yeah, but if you've scouted the European player/team/country then the "fog of war" is lifted and you get access to their ratings, and can compare them the same way as in the picture.

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by 3ric

Yeah, but if you've scouted the European player/team/country then the "fog of war" is lifted and you get access to their ratings, and can compare them the same way as in the picture.

Oh... why didn't anyone say that. Now it makes alot more sence.

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by 3ric

Yeah, but if you've scouted the European player/team/country then the "fog of war" is lifted and you get access to their ratings, and can compare them the same way as in the picture.

That still doesn't answer the question, I don't think.

Someone above said that players in different leagues are rated on different scales.

How do we know when which scales are applicable?

[Tekneek]

There is significant confusion over that. I don't think the player ratings were held to an ultimate standard. I don't really know, though.

There should be a range for every league, based on how that league generally rates against the NHL. Every player in that league must fall within that range, with the best near the top, and the worst near the bottom. If they followed that kind of system, then there is some hope.

I'm not even talking about potentials, which can be shaped by scouting reports. The best young players and prospects available are going to have plenty of stuff written about them to determine reasonable potentials.

[RPI-Fan]

Marc: Could you please step in and make a post trying to clarify this (rather large) problem? I (and I presume others) are still mucho confused.

[Tekneek]

The best scouting materials would cost money, and a cost that would be prohibitive for a strictly volunteer system.

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

Marc: Could you please step in and make a post trying to clarify this (rather large) problem? I (and I presume others) are still mucho confused.

This "rather large problem" meaning the confusions in knowing how to tell how good a player generally is based on his ratings.

Nothing to do with scouting.

[3ric]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

That still doesn't answer the question, I don't think.

Someone above said that players in different leagues are rated on different scales.

How do we know when which scales are applicable?

I assume it's much the same as in CM, where a 20 in crossing for a div.3 player isn't the same as the 20 in crossing for David Beckham. Most players in a lower league simply hasn't what it takes to play at the top, but if a player consistently develops and outperforms his competition, then he might be that diamond in the rough that has untapped potential. The scouts' opinions play a key role in finding them.