Duke lacrosse thugs?

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by TroyF

This entire case is bizzare.

If nobody did anything, why on Earth didn't more of the team just step forward and say "hey everyone, nothing happened, everyone is innocent"

Why did they lock up tighter than Fort Knox and try to fend off the media.

If the two main things that came out today are true (time stamped photos and no DNA match), it's going to be next to impossible to convict any of these guys for anything other than a few underage drinking charges.

Not good for the prosecution here at all.

Maybe (just a wild guess here), the underage drinking would be enough to get guys booted from the team/school?

[Logan]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

Maybe (just a wild guess here), the underage drinking would be enough to get guys booted from the team/school?

Not a chance. They would get suspended for a game for violation of team rules. Max.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Au contraire ... that seems to be a popular opinion in some segments of society today. Hell Fozzie, I'm not sure things aren't so far gone that it'd be a majority opinion if we put it to a vote.

I'm looking at this thread and seeing how many people brush off on-campus drinking by saying that they'll just go do it off-campus if it's barred.. but it brings back the old saw about how an uneforcable law weakens all the others. The more laws it's felt ok to break due to whatever reason, such as "College Kids are going to be stupid anyway.." It weakens the foundation that our society is builkt on.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

I'm looking at this thread and seeing how many people brush off on-campus drinking by saying that they'll just go do it off-campus if it's barred.. but it brings back the old saw about how an uneforcable law weakens all the others. The more laws it's felt ok to break due to whatever reason, such as "College Kids are going to be stupid anyway.." It weakens the foundation that our society is builkt on.

The law isn't unenforceable. People are cited for underage drinking all the time. This doesn't decrease the number of college kids that drink though. It is kind of like speeders. Most do it and everyone knows that very few get caught.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

It is obvious that Grantdawg has it out for these Duke guys. He never once, took a wait and see approach. He accused them and read them the riot act before any evidence was present.

I based everything I said on actual evidence presented in court by sworn testimony of the officers in the case from the search warrants. You have based everything you have said from some case that happened at St. Johns a few years ago. I'm the one basing things on no evidence? That's humorous.

And BTW, the innocent until proven guilt is for the COURT. I can have an opinion, as well as anyone else can. As long as I don't put them in prison, what I think really doesn't matter one way or another. I still believe something happened that night (which is all I have said from the beginning). I have no personal hatred for Duke or Lax players (I've never even met a Lax player). I do get angry when people immediataly assume rape victims are liars. Having dealt with a number of women that have been raped, I know it is this judging that is so hard on them. This is why there are so many unreported rapes.

[astrosfan64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I based everything I said on actual evidence presented in court by sworn testimony of the officers in the case from the search warrants. You have based everything you have said from some case that happened at St. Johns a few years ago. I'm the one basing things on no evidence? That's humorous.

And BTW, the innocent until proven guilt is for the COURT. I can have an opinion, as well as anyone else can. As long as I don't put them in prison, what I think really doesn't matter one way or another. I still believe something happened that night (which is all I have said from the beginning). I have no personal hatred for Duke or Lax players (I've never even met a Lax player). I do get angry when people immediataly assume rape victims are liars. Having dealt with a number of women that have been raped, I know it is this judging that is so hard on them. This is why there are so many unreported rapes.

I don't believe anyone thought that because she was a rape victim she was a liar. I stated from the very beginning, we need to wait and see before we condemn anyone at all. This chick is sounding more and more like a crack HO. I believe that she tried to get sex for money and they turned her down. So she called the cops and came up with this story.

I've known strippers "lived with one for four years" and the ones that goto houses solo are hookers period. Not really any other way to describe it.

If this story would of read something like, "Duke lacross players have frat party and woman who attends party was raped. I would be much more inclined to believe the story."

The media wanted everyone to believe this chick was telling the truth.

The DA didn't press charges on them because he knew that she was lying. He just couldn't come out and say that, because she was black. It is pretty pathetic the politics involved. But, if he truely believed this chick he would of arrested some of these guys with our without DNA.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

The DA didn't press charges on them because he knew that she was lying. He just couldn't come out and say that, because she was black. It is pretty pathetic the politics involved. But, if he truely believed this chick he would of arrested some of these guys with our without DNA.

The DA still states he believes a rape occured.

[astrosfan64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

The DA still states he believes a rape occured.

After the DNA? I didn't see that. I saw a quote that he wasn't available for comment. If he believes it, then he should press charges.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

After the DNA? I didn't see that. I saw a quote that he wasn't available for comment. If he believes it, then he should press charges.

To do that, he needs collaborating evidence. He needs a complete case (which is why he was waiting for the DNA test in the first place). It is not enough to believe or even just have evidence, he needs "beyond reasonable doubt" evidence, or the case is doomed.

[GrantDawg]

District Attorney Mike Nifong has said he would have other evidence to make his case should the DNA analysis prove inconclusive or fail to match a member of the team.
While Nifong's assistant told the AP on Monday the prosecutor would not comment on the findings, Nifong told The News & Observer of Raleigh he believes a sexual assault took place.
"I'm not saying it's over," he told the newspaper. "If that's what they expect, they will be sadly disappointed."

Quote from article.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

I'm looking at this thread and seeing how many people brush off on-campus drinking by saying that they'll just go do it off-campus if it's barred... but it brings back the old saw about how an unenforcable law weakens all the others. The more laws it's felt ok to break, due to whatever reason, weakens the foundation that our society is built on.

Couldn't agree more on this. I just disagree on the solution - you seem to think in this case where most people participate in the illegal behavior that catching and punishing everyone is possible, while I believe that it's an indication that the law shouldn't be on the books. Prohibition didn't work the first time it was tried, I don't see why anyone would expect it to these days.

Originally Posted by Grantdawg

As long as I don't put them in prison, what I think really doesn't matter one way or another.

You're entitled to your opinion, but don't pretend that these players won't suffer adverse effects from being judged guilty in the court of public opinion. I can guarantee that a significant segment of the population will consider these players rapists no matter how much exculpatory evidence is presented. I've seen it happen two separate times back in high school to classmates - accused of rape, both completely exonerated because there was videotape of the sexual encounter clearly showing it was consensual, but yet irreparable damage done to their reputation. That's the reason I think strongly that rape shield laws should go both ways and these things should be handled behind closed doors until trial.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

You're entitled to your opinion, but don't pretend that these players won't suffer adverse effects from being judged guilty in the court of public opinion. I can guarantee that a significant segment of the population will consider these players rapists no matter how much exculpatory evidence is presented. I've seen it happen two separate times back in high school to classmates - accused of rape, both completely exonerated because there was videotape of the sexual encounter clearly showing it was consensual, but yet irreparable damage done to their reputation. That's the reason I think strongly that rape shield laws should go both ways and these things should be handled behind closed doors until trial.

Did I pretend anything? They already have suffered adverse effects. And I agree that rape shield laws should protect both. It is just difficult to walk the fine line of protecting the innocent (both raped or accused falsely) and people's "right to know" plus keeping our legal system as transparent as possible.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

It'll be okay with me if Limbaugh also says that he is on board with the admissions preferences that the Duke lacrosse team likely received.

Admissions preferences for a Lacrosse team? Are you kidding?

hehe That said. Admission preferences for guys who will give the University a winning athletic team make a hell of a lot more sense than Admission preferences promoting a touch feely intangible thing like "diversity".

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Wow, did Grantdawg come out heavy on this against the lacrosse team or what? I mean, did he seriously suggest the photos may have been photoshopped? As for his claim that the photos are fake/don't exist because they weren't released right away is just not accurate. Trust me, any good lawyer would not have released them right away. For one, you want to see what else happens first. Second, all the lawyers have to review them first to make sure what they have. Third, I'm sure there not exactly flattering to the people besides her who are in the photos, so if you don't need them right away, you wait. Fourth, you don't shoot all your bullets right away in a p.r. battle. And so on.

As for claiming you've seen all the evidence because you read the application/affidavit for the search warrant is over the top. That's one side of the story, loaded up to get the warrant.

Now, I am still not saying a rape did or did not occur, but jumping hard on either side of this at such an early stage was seriously misguided. Now with the DNA evidence, it looks extremely premature.

[Huckleberry]

They swabbed under her fingernails, inside her vagina, all of her personal belongings, etc. and they found not one piece of DNA that matches any of the players.

I believe this woman may have been raped. I just haven't seen any evidence that proves to me the Duke lacrosse players did it at that party.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Admissions preferences for a Lacrosse team? Are you kidding?

hehe That said. Admission preferences for guys who will give the University a winning athletic team make a hell of a lot more sense than Admission preferences promoting a touch feely intangible thing like "diversity".

Uhh, yes--recruited athletes do catch admissions breaks. When the regular admit typically has a 1400 SAT score, the athletic department needs a few breaks to keep their teams competitive, especially at the 1-A level.

Personally, whatever you think of college admissions preferences I can respect someone who is logically consistent. For me, there really is no difference between a recruited athlete, under-represented minority, alumni kid, or tuba player. I am not opposed to any of these preferences. I hope my kids get the alumni preference. There are many people who rail against affirmative action in college admissions but clam up when confronted by the athletic admissions practices of their own favorite collegiate sports teams. I never understood why the divergent stances with regards to the different preference programs, when the net result is the same.

And again, I am not opposed to admissions breaks for athletes. They contribute to the "well rounded" student body as much as the minority kid, the tuba player, the kid from Alaska, etc.

Finally, for anyone interested in the various categories of preferences at Duke:

http://www.collegejournal.com/aidadm...tml?refresh=on

% of freshman class eligible for preference:
18% - Underrepresented Minority
15% - North Carolina/South Carolina Resident
12% - Child of Alumni
8% - Recruited Athlete
3-5% - Child of Potential High-Level Donor

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Admissions preferences for a Lacrosse team? Are you kidding?

Are you seriously suggesting these do not exist?

Admissions preferences for things other than academics exist all over the place. They certainly happen for athletics in every sport at every level, at every school I've ever heard of. Not only that, but there are also financial aid preferences for non scholarship athletes. Schools won't completely abandon their standards to let an athlete in, but their applications are certainly viewed apart from the general applicant pool at the request of the athletic department.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

They swabbed under her fingernails, inside her vagina, all of her personal belongings, etc. and they found not one piece of DNA that matches any of the players.

I believe this woman may have been raped. I just haven't seen any evidence that proves to me the Duke lacrosse players did it at that party.

Here is the question then: where and who? She shows the physical signs of rape, both virginal and anal. She says it happened in the house. If the rape occurred, where did it happen? When did it happen? It had to have happened that night, or the medical examiner could have told. What is the possibility that someone other than a lacross player was in that house?

[astrosfan64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Here is the question then: where and who? She shows the physical signs of rape, both virginal and anal. She says it happened in the house. If the rape occurred, where did it happen? When did it happen? It had to have happened that night, or the medical examiner could have told. What is the possibility that someone other than a lacross player was in that house?

My guess is she was raped before she got to the house. Maybe from her Pimp?

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

My guess is she was raped before she got to the house. Maybe from her Pimp?

Possible (though I doubt she has a "pimp." She wasn't a street walker), but why then say it happened there? The only possible explaination is she allowed her self to be beaten and rape to set up these Lax players. Just doesn't sound feasible.

[Huckleberry]

There are lots of possibilities. She passed out on their porch. That leads to the possibility of all sorts of memory loss.

Heck, if she was indeed high as a kite she might have remembered being raped, remembered being at that house, and remembered being in the bathroom and created a memory. So she might have truly believed that she was raped in that bathroom at that party even if she wasn't. The problem is that the cops took the fingernails she claims to have left behind and if things happened as she described there should have been DNA evidence under those nails that matched at least one of the players.

There's no way to tell at this point.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

There are lots of possibilities. She passed out on their porch. That leads to the possibility of all sorts of memory loss.

Heck, if she was indeed high as a kite she might have remembered being raped, remembered being at that house, and remembered being in the bathroom and created a memory. So she might have truly believed that she was raped in that bathroom at that party even if she wasn't. The problem is that the cops took the fingernails she claims to have left behind and if things happened as she described there should have been DNA evidence under those nails that matched at least one of the players.

There's no way to tell at this point.

Here is where that breaks down...she doesn't remember where she was anally raped, but she remembers her fingernails breaking? The finger nails breaking is connected with the rape, but those broke in the bathroom. Is there other DNA on the finger nails than hers? If so, whose?

[BrianD]

This would provide good inspiration for an episode of "The Evidence". We've got about 4 pieces of evidence, and from that we will deduce all of the events surrounding the case. Not bad.

[astrosfan64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Here is where that breaks down...she doesn't remember where she was anally raped, but she remembers her fingernails breaking? The finger nails breaking is connected with the rape, but those broke in the bathroom. Is there other DNA on the finger nails than hers? If so, whose?

There is the chance that she is completely making up the whole story about the LAX team. She was part of an escort service. Many of these services are really prostitution rings. I'm sad to say, I know quite a bit about the seedy side of things. I saw many of my X's friends go down the wrong path.

My guess is she got tossed around by someone before going out for the night. Maybe a boyfriend, pimp or a customer before the LAX team. She showed up there and was "fucked up" and looked like a skank. The dickhead LAX guys taunted her, called her a slut, skank etc... She was messed up and was like, I'll suck your dick for $50 bucks or whatever. They said, some nasty shit to her and treated her like dirt. She got pissed off and called the cops and reported them for rape.

That isn't that far fetched.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

There is the chance that she is completely making up the whole story about the LAX team. She was part of an escort service. Many of these services are really prostitution rings. I'm sad to say, I know quite a bit about the seedy side of things. I saw many of my X's friends go down the wrong path.

My guess is she got tossed around by someone before going out for the night. Maybe a boyfriend, pimp or a customer before the LAX team. She showed up there and was "fucked up" and looked like a skank. The dickhead LAX guys taunted her, called her a slut, skank etc... She was messed up and was like, I'll suck your dick for $50 bucks or whatever. They said, some nasty shit to her and treated her like dirt. She got pissed off and called the cops and reported them for rape.

That isn't that far fetched.

Yes and no. It seems a bit extreme, and there are contradictions that are hard to get over. More evidence is needed to get to the root of things, but it still looks to me like a rape occured in that bathroom.

[molson]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Yes and no. It seems a bit extreme, and there are contradictions that are hard to get over. More evidence is needed to get to the root of things, but it still looks to me like a rape occured in that bathroom.

Why are you still so sure? Because they found a broken nail? Because an escort/prostitute showed signs of rape? (She probably had clients before and after this party) Because of her word? Am I missing anything? astrosfan64's explanation is the most reasonable I've seen so far.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by molson

Why are you still so sure? Because they found a broken nail? Because an escort/prostitute showed signs of rape? (She probably had clients before and after this party) Because of her word? Am I missing anything? astrosfan64's explanation is the most reasonable I've seen so far.

For the same reasons the DA is. Namely evidence of rape and trauma on the victim, the sworn testimony of a trained proffesional that the mental state of the victim was consitant with rape, and evidence at the scene of where the victim said the crime occured.

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

For the same reasons the DA is. Namely evidence of rape and trauma on the victim, the sworn testimony of a trained proffesional that the mental state of the victim was consitant with rape, and evidence at the scene of where the victim said the crime occured.

So the evidence indicates she was raped and that she was in the bathroom at some point.

I still don't see the evidence that she was raped in that bathroom.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

For the same reasons the DA is. Namely evidence of rape and trauma on the victim, the sworn testimony of a trained proffesional that the mental state of the victim was consitant with rape, and evidence at the scene of where the victim said the crime occured.

And the problem is, you haven't seen any of this evidence in which to form your opinion.

I have ZERO clue what happened in that room. I couldn't even begin to guess.

The problems from a prosecution standpoint are now beyond difficult. You have no DNA evidence. If the photos are accurate and timestamped you now have another issue. The phone call which came from the "friend" who altered stories about walking/driving by the scene.

Look, in a criminal case, it's "beyond a reasonable doubt"

As of now, the DA hasn't been able to come up with enough evidence to press charges. He didn't even know which of the 46 players were involved in the accuses sexual assault, which is why he had them all take DNA tests. Now he doesn't have that.

Am I supposed to believe he can now come up with enough evidence to prove beyond doubt that specific members of the team assaulted this women and that the physical evidence at the crime scene can prove it?

These cases suck. I think the first reaction of anybody who knows a person who has been raped is to throw everyone under the bus because there is NO WAY women make stuff like this up.

The real world isn't as easy. Women do cry wolf. Social workers aren't telepathic geniuses that can know everything. They make their best guess based on other rape victims, but they don't shoot 100%. I'm sure some of that guess was made on the basis of her bruises and cuts. If those photos show the bruising prior to the alledged attack, would the social workers opinion be changed a bit maybe?

I don't know and neither do you. What I do know is that if the photos are accurate, the prosecution has a gigantic, gigantic problem now. I think they have a case that's about as close to unproveable as there is. Their only hope is the photos are photoshopped, because if they aren't, this case is as good as over.

I respect you Grant and I know where you're coming from. I'm one of those people who has had someone close to me suffer an assault. But that doesn't give you the right to assume something happened in that bedroom without the evidence to back it up.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

So the evidence indicates she was raped and that she was in the bathroom at some point.

Actually all we have is the statement from the DA's office that there is evidence of bruising consistent with rape - which can come from normal sex, if I recall the hoopla around the Kobe Bryant case correctly. I'm not saying she wasn't raped at some point that night, but at the rate her story and the DA's case are falling apart, I don't take it as a certainty at this point. I'll also be real curious to see if the Toxicology reports ever come out - the players weren't saying she was drunk, they were saying she was cracked out. There is a reason the DA only released one of the many e-mails seized.


I also love how DA Nifong scheduled his press conference to announce he was still going on with the case in front of a crowd at NCCU. Most of the area was/is more than eager to convict Duke and the out of state lacrosse players. Apparently pandering to the community before his election that comes up in less than a month is more important to Nifong than guilt or innocence in the case.

[JonInMiddleGA]

from the latest wire story
http://sports.myway.com/news/04112006/v4304.html
Nifong has also said he doesn't necessarily need DNA evidence to prosecute. He was calmly defiant at Tuesday's forum, attended by about 700 people on the campus of North Carolina Central University, the historically black university a few miles from Duke where the alleged victim is a student.

"The fact is that this case is proceeding the way a case should proceed," Nifong said to applause from the crowd.

That highlighted part is where I mention that Nifong is facing re-election this year, in a Democratic primary (there are no GOP candidates) that includes a white female and a black male as challenger.

Gee, would it be cynical of me to suspect that he might just be looking for some political gain by persuing this case?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by TroyF

As of now, the DA hasn't been able to come up with enough evidence to press charges. He didn't even know which of the 46 players were involved in the accusers sexual assault, which is why he had them all take DNA tests.

On this one point, I think that the players actually volunteered themselves for the DNA tests (and lie detector tests). I should have thought more about what that meant 2 weeks ago (ie, regardless of whether a rape occurred, these tests were going to come back negative, because someone guilty of what the dancer said would surely not be confident enough to avoid matching DNA being found).



If I knew someone who actually was sexually assaulted, I'd be more pissed off, because now there is going to be an added level of scrutiny and disbelief from people when allegations come forward.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

from the latest wire story
http://sports.myway.com/news/04112006/v4304.html
Nifong has also said he doesn't necessarily need DNA evidence to prosecute. He was calmly defiant at Tuesday's forum, attended by about 700 people on the campus of North Carolina Central University, the historically black university a few miles from Duke where the alleged victim is a student.

"The fact is that this case is proceeding the way a case should proceed," Nifong said to applause from the crowd.

That highlighted part is where I mention that Nifong is facing re-election this year, in a Democratic primary (there are no GOP candidates) that includes a white female and a black male as challenger.

Gee, would it be cynical of me to suspect that he might just be looking for some political gain by persuing this case?

And I love the flip flop potential of the quote.

If the case doesn't go to trial and nobody gets charged, the case is going the way it should.

If the case gots to trial, it's going the way it should.

Easy outs both ways.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Are you seriously suggesting these do not exist?

Admissions preferences for things other than academics exist all over the place. They certainly happen for athletics in every sport at every level, at every school I've ever heard of. Not only that, but there are also financial aid preferences for non scholarship athletes. Schools won't completely abandon their standards to let an athlete in, but their applications are certainly viewed apart from the general applicant pool at the request of the athletic department.

I guess I should have added a smiley. It was more of a backhanded shot at Lacrosse.

My niece attended Penn, in the Ivy league, and there they don't have Athletic scholarships at all, as I understand it. The softball coach did mention that they would "Flag" her file because she played softball in Souther California.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Uhh, yes--recruited athletes do catch admissions breaks. When the regular admit typically has a 1400 SAT score, the athletic department needs a few breaks to keep their teams competitive, especially at the 1-A level.

Personally, whatever you think of college admissions preferences I can respect someone who is logically consistent. For me, there really is no difference between a recruited athlete, under-represented minority, alumni kid, or tuba player. I am not opposed to any of these preferences. I hope my kids get the alumni preference. There are many people who rail against affirmative action in college admissions but clam up when confronted by the athletic admissions practices of their own favorite collegiate sports teams. I never understood why the divergent stances with regards to the different preference programs, when the net result is the same.
...

You wouldn't see me clam up. An Athlete and a talented musician bring something tangible to a university. The University wants something from those students. Those students have something tangible to offer.

Diversity is a "Touch Feely" intangible thing. Another point where the analogy breaks down is the scale of the program. A relatively small number of athletes require the "assistance" of a preference program.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I guess I should have added a smiley. It was more of a backhanded shot at Lacrosse.

My niece attended Penn, in the Ivy league, and there they don't have Athletic scholarships at all, as I understand it. The softball coach did mention that they would "Flag" her file because she played softball in Souther California.

Fair enough.

The Ivy League admissions process for athletic recruiting is actually rather involved. It's tough to recruit at these schools because of the lack of merit-scholarships (though generous financial aid often levels the playing field a lot for lower/middle class kids) and because the regular admits tend to be ridiculously over-qualified. Recruited athletic classes have to have an academic profile that is within 1 standard deviation of the regular pool, so coaches have a hard time putting a pool of recruitable athletes together. What further engenders controversy is the fact that Ivies tend to have small undergraduate enrollments, yet they sponsor 25-30+ varsity sports. At some of the smaller schools, that could translate into as much as 15-25% of the entering class being recruited athletes (many of whom presumably would not get in if not for the admissions break).

It's a fascinating topic (at least to me). If you're interested, "Playing the Game: Inside Athletic Recruiting in the Ivy League" by Chris Lincoln provides a very good overview of the process. The student newspapers and the NY Times will also have some articles pertaining to this topic too...

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Fair enough.

The Ivy League admissions process for athletic recruiting is actually rather involved. It's tough to recruit at these schools because of the lack of merit-scholarships (though generous financial aid often levels the playing field a lot for lower/middle class kids) and because the regular admits tend to be ridiculously over-qualified. Recruited athletic classes have to have an academic profile that is within 1 standard deviation of the regular pool, so coaches have a hard time putting a pool of recruitable athletes together. What further engenders controversy is the fact that Ivies tend to have small undergraduate enrollments, yet they sponsor 25-30+ varsity sports. At some of the smaller schools, that could translate into as much as 15-25% of the entering class being recruited athletes (many of whom presumably would not get in if not for the admissions break).

It's a fascinating topic (at least to me). If you're interested, "Playing the Game: Inside Athletic Recruiting in the Ivy League" by Chris Lincoln provides a very good overview of the process. The student newspapers and the NY Times will also have some articles pertaining to this topic too...

While not completely on the same level, this is a challenge schools like my alma mater (William and Mary) face. They do give out athletic scholarships, but they do not bend their academic standards NEARLY as much as other programs for their athletes. I won't say they don't bend them at all, but it's definately much less significant, making athletic recruiting quite difficult.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

You wouldn't see me clam up. An Athlete and a talented musician bring something tangible to a university. The University wants something from those students. Those students have something tangible to offer.

Diversity is a "Touch Feely" intangible thing. Another point where the analogy breaks down is the scale of the program. A relatively small number of athletes require the "assistance" of a preference program.

Well, there is a difference between state schools and elite private schools. At state schools, the enrollments are huge and the number of varsity sports tend to be small, so recruits don't have a large impact on the overall academic profile.

At private schools, they sponsor more sports yet have small enrollments--you can't really say it's only a relatively small number of athletes affected. In fact, recruited athletes are about 15-25% of your freshman class, and you can't hide those numbers easily.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by wade moore

While not completely on the same level, this is a challenge schools like my alma mater (William and Mary) face. They do give out athletic scholarships, but they do not bend their academic standards NEARLY as much as other programs for their athletes. I won't say they don't bend them at all, but it's definately much less significant, making athletic recruiting quite difficult.

Yes, it is especially tough for schools like Stanford, Duke, and ND. Unlike the Ivies, who have concocted rules that have evened the playing field within their league at the expense of competitiveness outside the league, Stanford et al have chosen to try to be athletically competitive at a major conference level while attempting to maintain relatively elite admissions standards. That's a pretty tough road to navigate...

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by TroyF

The phone call which came from the "friend" who altered stories about walking/driving by the scene.

Has it actually been confirmed that the phone call came from the friend? I remember seeing someone (defence lawyer?) raise that theory but I never heard about it being fact.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I guess I should have added a smiley. It was more of a backhanded shot at Lacrosse

Oh, it definitely needed a smiley then.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Has it actually been confirmed that the phone call came from the friend? I remember seeing someone (defence lawyer?) raise that theory but I never heard about it being fact.

I don't think so, the identity of the first phone caller remains unknown AFAIK.
Here's what looks like a pretty good timeline of the sequence of calls
http://www.wral.com/news/8392580/detail.html

[Chubby]

Gee, the DNA comes back negative and the DA is still sure they are guilty as he's stated he's still going forward with the case...

If he's so damn sure he's right, how come none of the players have been arrested yet???

It's looking more and more like she tried to take her money and run after getting turned down to be a prostitute, called the police to get back at the guys at the party.

It's also looking more and more like the DA will go forward no matter how flimsy his case is to try and help his re-election campaign.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I don't think so, the identity of the first phone caller remains unknown AFAIK.
Here's what looks like a pretty good timeline of the sequence of calls
http://www.wral.com/news/8392580/detail.html

No not confirmed at all. Just fishy that the caller changed stories. If they do end up proving it was her friend the case will be closed in about ten minutes.

[WSUCougar]

Perhaps there was a second caller?

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by TroyF

And the problem is, you haven't seen any of this evidence in which to form your opinion....



I respect you Grant and I know where you're coming from. I'm one of those people who has had someone close to me suffer an assault. But that doesn't give you the right to assume something happened in that bedroom without the evidence to back it up.

I have seen the official court documents which the things I listed were attested to. Of course the medical examiners (more than one), the police, and the DA office could all be in a great conspiracy. I guess they all graduated from UNC and just want to give Duke a bad name.

BTW, it was a bathroom, not a bedroom.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

"BTW, it was a bathroom, not a bedroom."

That's a little cheap. By the way, it's vaginal not virginal (as mentioned in your previous posts).

None of the "official" documents (which are nothing more than one-sided unrebutted testimony) peg the lacrosse team, but only that something traumatic happened that day/night to the woman. The jury is still out so to speak. Which means the DA has to continue the investigation -- the woman did make a complaint. But, we are far, far, far away from guilt here by the lacrosse team.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Am I supposed to believe he can now come up with enough evidence to prove beyond doubt that specific members of the team assaulted this women and that the physical evidence at the crime scene can prove it?

BTW, where in God's green earth have I even suggested that? Where have I called for an arrest? Where have I named in the rapist? Can someone please show me where in any post I have said that this case is ready for trial? I have given my OPINION. Not binding conclusions. Not "beyond reasonable doubt." What I THINK happened. Would people stop suggesting I have some how become the judge, jury and executioner here. It is not within my power, nor would this be a "case closed" situation if it were.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

"BTW, it was a bathroom, not a bedroom."

That's a little cheap. By the way, it's vaginal not virginal (as mentioned in your previous posts).

None of the "official" documents (which are nothing more than one-sided unrebutted testimony) peg the lacrosse team, but only that something traumatic happened that day/night to the woman. The jury is still out so to speak. Which means the DA has to continue the investigation -- the woman did make a complaint. But, we are far, far, far away from guilt here by the lacrosse team.

No F______ joke. Where have I suggested anything different?

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I have seen the official court documents which the things I listed were attested to. Of course the medical examiners (more than one), the police, and the DA office could all be in a great conspiracy. I guess they all graduated from UNC and just want to give Duke a bad name.

BTW, it was a bathroom, not a bedroom.

Grant,

Ok, bathroom.

And please stop with the patronizing. I have NEVER hinted that it's a great conspiracy. I think everyone is doing their jobs. And I'm sure they are all doing a high quality job.

But that doesn't mean there aren't issues with any of them either. For example, did the bruising and cuts she showed play a part in the medical examiners belief? If those bruises and cuts show up on the photos of her while she's performing, does that alter their opinion?

I F'n hate Duke. Despise them. And these lacrosse players? Most of em are jack asses. Having a party when half your F'n team already has alcohol priors? Moronic. The e-mail? Disgusting. The dirtbag deserves to be off campus for good.

But we aren't talking about underage drinking or disgusting e-mails here. We are talking RAPE. And in a rape case, you need evidence to back up the claims. The lack of DNA evidence alone makes for a ridiculously tough case. 46 guys tested and they can't find a trace of their DNA anywhere on her. Not in her fingernails, on her property, fluids, latex. Nothing.

If those pictures are real and she showed up with bruises and cuts prior to the alleged assault, that's a second strike to overcome. We only need reasonable doubt here. How are they going to prove this case now?

The police are doing their due dilligence and for that I'm glad. I would love to see the truth about this come out one way or the other. But as of now, I haven't seen anything to make me believe they have a case.

As for my opinion if anything happened? I have ZERO idea. I said so above. I don't know and I'm not going to guess either way. I'm not calling the girl a ho. I'm not saying the players are angels. But do I think with what's came out the prosecution has a case? No. I think they are in a world of hurt.