Possible Penguins relocation

[KevinNU7]

Rendell: Hey Tom can you make another article saying everything is still great? Take some old quotes, make up some new ones. You know the drill we do this every few days.

Barnes: No problem. Hey should we start discounting Las Vegas since they are heading over their today?

Rendell: I don't see how that can possibly hurt our negociations. Get to it.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Just as a sidenote.....

Some of you may have seen the adverse reaction by Pittsburgh-area fans towards Kansas City over this whole situation. The Pittsburgh fans in general are throwing some pretty harsh barbs towards KC in general. They might be surprised to find that KC actually empathizes with their plight. Sure, KC would love to have the Penguins come to town. We know that we'll get a NHL team at some point in the very near future. Why not get a team with a young nucleus that will contend for some time to come?

With that said, we've been in Pittsburgh's situation in the past and certainly know how it feels. We lost the A's when they moved to Oakland. We lost the Kings to Sacramento just before the NBA's popularity boom began. Some may not realize that we lost the NHL Scouts, who were moved and became the New Jersey Devils. A lot of that movement was done when KC was still struggling with growth in the metropolitan area.

Things are much different now in Kansas City. The growth rate of 6-7% that we are seeing right now is amazing. We will soon have a great new arena which will be able to house many events that skip our town right now. A NHL tenant is soon-to-come as well, whether it is the Pens, Predators or an expansion team. Construction will soon start on a new $300M performing arts complex, which will be one of the finest in the nation. Over $500M was just recently allocated for a renovation of the Truman Sports Complex (Arrowhead Stadium and Kauffman Stadium). Both of those stadiums are great venues and will only get better. We have a brand new racetrack as well and have both NASCAR and IRL events every year. A new soccer stadium is likely soon to come for the KC Wizards.

Pittsburgh needs to follow KC's lead if it wants to stay in the game. I know that the population numbers are falling in that area. Pittsburgh city leaders need to reinvent that city and make it a place that people want to live. The football and baseball stadiums are a good start, but they have to do more than that. Hopefully they don't wait too long to make those decisions so they avoid anything that hinders the growth of the city.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Just as a sidenote.....

Some of you may have seen the adverse reaction by Pittsburgh-area fans towards Kansas City over this whole situation. The Pittsburgh fans in general are throwing some pretty harsh barbs towards KC in general.

Are you referring to this?

http://www.cafepress.com/helpthepens.98803805

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

Are you referring to this?

http://www.cafepress.com/helpthepens.98803805

That's one, but certainly not the only one. Obviously, KC is there as a good venting tool, though Pittsburgh fans should mainly be blaming their government officials for failing to get a deal over the previous 8 years when they already knew it was a problem. I would note that the declining population problem in Pittsburgh obviously hurts the economic and tax base, which probably doesn't help their ability to get funds together to get something done.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

That's one, but certainly not the only one. Obviously, KC is there as a good venting tool, though Pittsburgh fans should mainly be blaming their government officials for failing to get a deal over the previous 8 years when they already knew it was a problem. I would note that the declining population problem in Pittsburgh obviously hurts the economic and tax base, which probably doesn't help their ability to get funds together to get something done.

Declining tax base didn't stop a football and baseball stadium from being built, again with public opposition. Government ineptitude is the goal scorer, with ownership greed with an assist. Maybe give the second assist to declining tax base.

[Simms]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Some may not realize that we lost the NHL Scouts, who were moved and became the New Jersey Devils.

Not to detract from your very good post, but the Scouts actually moved to Denver to become the Rockies. The Rockies then moved to Jersey.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Simms

Not to detract from your very good post, but the Scouts actually moved to Denver to become the Rockies. The Rockies then moved to Jersey.

Very good point. I skipped a stop because I figured most wouldn't know the NHL Rockies any more than the NHL Scouts. I probably should have said 'who eventually became the NJ Devils'.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Simms, you actually indirectly pointed out another thing about this whole discussion. Denver had that NHL team for a short time and then it moved to Jersey. Rendell in the article today made the comment that KC had already had a NHL team in the past and it failed and so he didn't see why it would be any more of a success this time.

That's one of the worst arguments against a move to KC that I've ever seen. To use the NHL and KC of the early '70 as logic to imply that a NHL team would not now (or in the future) succeed in KC is a reach at best. Using that logic, Denver never should have got another shot at the NHL. They seem to be doing just fine.

Also, this idea that people like Rendell keep bringing up that the team won't be supported in KC is antiquated thinking as well. KC fans are not idiots and they're nothing but loyal. The Royals win 60-65 games and draw 1.3 million fans for the season. The Chiefs have the best environment in the NFL and sell out that stadium for the entire year despite the fact that the last QB to lead us to a playoff win was Joe Montana in the early '90s. Our Arena football team nearly sold out every game last year despite a final record of 3-13. Implying that KC fans don't know the game of hockey and wouldn't come out to see one of the brightest young superstars in the game is crazy. There's also Chicago, St. Louis, Minneapolis, and Denver transplants that would love to have a local NHL team to see on a regular basis.

Note that this is certainly not meant to knock the Pittsburgh fans. They've supporting the club despite all of the blunders by their politicians. Unfortunately, those politicians are the ones that hold the club's fate in their hands, not the fans.

[Pyser]

ok, now im rooting for the pens to move to kc. this is great on 2 fronts:

1 - detroit to the east. that would just be wonderful all around.
2 - crosby, malkin and the rest to the western conference, and the atlantic division remains in the devils grasp! ha!

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

FWIW.......the construction is still on time and on budget. Amazing how these kind of things stay on budget and on time when a private company is responsible for any cost overruns........

http://www.sprintcenter.com/arena_webcam.php

[Butter]

I kinda figured they'd move Columbus to the East. Nashville would also be a candidate.

[Wolfpack]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

I kinda figured they'd move Columbus to the East. Nashville would also be a candidate.

True, but if they bumped Detroit to the east, they'd be able to re-unite two of the better O6 teams by putting them in with Toronto in the Northeast Division (along with Montreal, Ottawa, and Buffalo). I suspect if this came to pass, then Boston would be bumped to the Atlantic Division (which makes some sense, really--the only crucial tie the Bruins had in the Northeast Division was with Montreal and renewing the feud with the New York area in another sport is more the right speed, I think).

I guess if the Pens go to the West, they just take Detroit's place so they can have an in-state rivalry with St. Louis. The only other team that could really re-align would be Minnesota to the Central, which would put the Pens in the Northwest, probably.

[Scarecrow]

I just get the feeling that the move to KC is inevitable, and that the Pittsburgh/Pennsylvania politicians are just trying to save face for the next elections. 'We tried everything to keep the Penguins, but Mario was an asshole about it.'

[KevinNU7]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

FWIW.......the construction is still on time and on budget. Amazing how these kind of things stay on budget and on time when a private company is responsible for any cost overruns........

http://www.sprintcenter.com/arena_webcam.php

Can't decide if I like the exterior view or not. It's cool that you can see outside from the balcony, but I wonder if they have considered the impact to hockey/basketball at sunset

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

I just get the feeling that the move to KC is inevitable, and that the Pittsburgh/Pennsylvania politicians are just trying to save face for the next elections. 'We tried everything to keep the Penguins, but Mario was an asshole about it.'

There was an article talking about that today.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07066/767367-61.stm

Risks over arena great for public officials and franchise
Wednesday, March 07, 2007

By James O'Toole, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette


The Penguins' latest declaration that they are seeking a home beyond Pittsburgh may have been an authentic expression of eight years of frustrating negotiations, but it was also a calculated effort to boost pressure on state and local officials to resolve, once and for all, their quest for a new arena.

The talks, which may resume tomorrow, pose significant, though varying, degrees of political risk for the three officeholders involved, just as they carry substantial business and public relations risks for the franchise.

For Pittsburgh Mayor Luke Ravenstahl, the flight of the flightless birds would offer a ready-made issue to his mayoral challenger, Councilman William Peduto.

Mr. Peduto, who has been a passionate hockey fan since growing up in Scott down the block from former Penguins player Lowell MacDonald, seized on the latest development yesterday, blaming Mr. Ravenstahl for taking a back seat to Gov. Ed Rendell and Allegheny County Chief Executive Dan Onorato throughout the talks.

He contrasted what he characterized as a subsidiary role by the mayor with the leading one played by former Mayor Tom Murphy in the negotiations that produced PNC Park and Heinz Field.

Mr. Ravenstahl, who said he had reached out to the Penguins in response to their letter declaring an impasse in the arena talks, rejected his rival's critique, noting the central financial role of the state in any prospective deal.

"Without the governor at the table, there's absolutely no way we could be in discussions to keep the team here," he said.

Mr. Onorato has no similar short-term jeopardy. His re-election is all but assured with no Republican opponent and only a long-shot challenge from community organizer Richard Swartz for the Democratic nomination.

Mr. Onorato is widely seen as having ambitions beyond the courthouse, however. The departure of the popular sports franchise could complicate those plans. Mr. Onorato has led a relatively charmed public life since taking over as the county's second chief executive.

By introducing a base-year system for property tax assessments, he finessed an issue that had dogged county officials for decades. He recently welcomed the news that US Airways had decided to locate its expended operations center in the county. But the Penguins issue could turn into a hurdle on a potential road to higher office.

From a purely political perspective, the arena issue was a bigger potential problem for Mr. Rendell before his landslide re-election last year.

His opponent, Lynn Swann, joined a long list of politicians of both parties in embracing the casino bid of Isle of Capri, then the Penguins' partner, which pledged to build a new arena in return for the awarding of a slot machine license.

Mr. Rendell took the lead in crafting the so-called Plan B, wherein all three of Pittsburgh's slots bidders were asked to help finance a new arena. He is barred from seeking a third term as governor, so the talks could do little to cloud his personal ambition.

Their resolution, could, at most, have a marginal, intangible impact on the clout he brings to battles over broader state issues. A popular governor is in a better position than an unpopular one in asking for tough votes on such issues as health care or the budget.

"I think the political stakes for the governor are certainly less than they are for the two local officials running for re-election, but having said that, the governor ... has worked hard on this project because it is important to Western Pennsylvania,'' said Chuck Ardo, a spokesman for Mr. Rendell. "It's got less to do with politics than it does with the fact that he thinks it's important for Pittsburgh to have a hockey team."

Despite the impression that might be conveyed by the callers to sports talk radio, the political pressure on public officials concerning the Penguins does not come solely from one side.

Mr. Peduto invoked the former Mayor Mr. Murphy in his criticism of Mr. Ravenstahl. But among the political problems that assailed Mr. Murphy in the latter part of his administration was enduring criticism of his role in championing public financing for the North Shore sports facilities.

In the run-up to last year's elections, Western Pennsylvania voters were the targets of polling on almost every conceivable public issue. If those surveys had found big majorities favoring public financing of the arena, local and state politicians would be lining up behind such proposals, making the Penguins talks easier for all sides.

But the issue is a double-edged sword to politicians.

"Who lost the Penguins?" could become to Pittsburgh politics what "Who lost China?" was to the national political debate of the 1950s, a source of never-ending, unresolvable bickering.

At the same time, as the fate of Mr. Murphy and former county Commissioners Bob Cranmer and Mike Dawida suggests, there is political peril in being perceived as having given away the store to a sports franchise.

In a reflection of that reality, under the outline of Plan B, a pledge of $7.5 million in gaming proceeds from the eventual Pittsburgh casino winner, Majestic Star, along with other gaming-generated revenues and a substantial contribution from the team, are the heart of the financing deal still on the table. The political players have emphasized repeatedly that the proposal does not depend on tax dollars.

The prospect of the Penguins' exit raises the question of what would happen to the Majestic Star portion of that revenue stream. Even though Isle of Capri lost out on the slots license, it was a political and public relations achievement on its part and that of the casino operator's allies, the Penguins, that a public consensus developed early that arena financing was an appropriate goal for slots revenue.

Part of the argument was that this was private money rather than tax dollars. But if that revenue stream is not needed for a new arena, would it be available for some other public purpose? Officials close to the talks disagreed on whether it could be redirected or simply added to Majestic Star's prospective profits.

"That's highly speculative," said Bob Oltmanns, a Majestic Star spokesman.

While they don't have to worry about the next election, the Penguins aren't immune from risk in this situation. Mario Lemieux will always be a Pittsburgh sports legend. Whatever happens with the team, he won't be a contender for the pariah status Art Modell assumed in Cleveland with the exit of the Ravens, nee Browns. But the prospect of the Kansas City Penguins, or the Las Vegas Penguins, would inevitably complicate his relationship with an adopted home whose team he saved on the ice and in the front office.

From a business standpoint, the lease details offered by Kansas City seem favorable to the team. And with its current makeup, the odds are that a winning, young team could sell tickets in any sizable city, at least in the near term. The real danger for the team in a new city is whether it could cultivate the long-term fan base that allowed the team to attract crowds even in its down years. That relationship, built over decades, will be at risk for all sides as the brinkmanship over the arena continues.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by KevinNU7

Can't decide if I like the exterior view or not. It's cool that you can see outside from the balcony, but I wonder if they have considered the impact to hockey/basketball at sunset

Al Gore mandated that our arena be the first 'green' arena in the nation. A view of the sunset was what was negotiated.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Just as a sidenote.....

Some of you may have seen the adverse reaction by Pittsburgh-area fans towards Kansas City over this whole situation. The Pittsburgh fans in general are throwing some pretty harsh barbs towards KC in general.

The only reason I even got remotely testy with any of my responses was because you seem to be the know all about this situation and refuse to listen to anyone else's point of view. You've been basically reporting since the beginning that the Pens to KC would be a done deal anyday. Plus you sit there and say how KC is leaps and bounds ahead of Pittsburgh, so yeah you are going to get people throwing it back at you. You can read all the articles in the papers that you want, but there is one thing I have found about writers in this town. They are very pessimistic.

Some of what you do say is correct and I agree with the notion that the govenment has dropped the ball on this one. Not so much Fast Eddie but the city itself. They kept promising...promising...and more promising ownership that an arena would be built. And I cannot blame Lemieux for getting pissed off. The only reason he is the owner of this team is because the Pens did not have the cash to pay him the money he was owed. So he agreed that instead of taking the money he would take a stake in the team instead. Now one of the sticking points is the State not telling the Pens what the interest rate is on the bond. Call me a homer or whatever but I find it hard to believe that this point will be the breaking point. The State/City is dumb, but not that dumb.

What the city also has going against it is the fact that the losers of the slot licenses are now filing an appeal which will hold up the money for the proposed Arena. Bardon has already applied for an extension - for when the Slots Parlor is to open. He is requesting to bring in riverboats to allow for gambling to offset the delay in his opening of the Slots Parlor. So it is the gaming boards fault for picking this guy, who might not have the funding they thought he had. And who has buddies on the Gaming Board...Fast Eddie. So now the Isle of Capri and the other ones are challenging that Bardon doesn't have the money to build the Casinos. This right here is not a good sign. The worst part in this all is that even if the Pens do move, an Arena will be built. That has already been established. It will be just too little too late.

Your other point about Pittsburgh's population dwindling is correct on the surface but have you actually been to a Penguins game in the past 3 years? If you have you would notice that 70% of the crowd are people below the age of 35. If you show up to the game 2 hrs beforehand you would see a line out of Gate A that stretches half way around the stadium. That line is the college students lining up for student rush tickets. A program (a great one IMO) that will allow college students to buy any available ticket at $20 with a valid student ID. So the Pens let them in cheaper in hopes they will get hooked and when they get out of college they will buy regular priced tickets. And it seems to be a program that is working.

Also when they talk about the Population in Pittsburgh they only include what is going on in Allegheny county. I don't live in Allegheny County but in a surrounding county. In those counties the population is not decreasing, it is increasing because the people want out of the 3% income tax range. So on paper it looks like the fan base is losing numbers but it isnt. It's a mere 20-30 min drive to the Arena from the surrounding counties. And just as a side note, those surrounding counties also had a tax increase to pay for Heinz and PNC Park.

You're correct when you say that the City needs to do build up so people want to live there and they have, but it is still a work in progress. But it is not as far behind as you might think. Since PNC Park and Heinz Field have been build, the North Side is a really nice place to go. Also in Homestead the entire Waterfront area has been built up and it a really nice place. Between the Arena and the Stadiums the Arts District has been renovated. As far as how they compare to KC, I have no idea because I don't comment on things I haven't seen. The next area is the Hill District, where Mellon Arena is located.

Even when the Pens were bad their attendance numbers (% wise) were only bad one year. In 03-04 they only played at 70% capacity, but had 23 wins. In the other years (since 2000) of sub 38 wins, Mellon Arena was filled over 90% each time. The only season since 2000 they've had a winning one was 2000-01 where they played at 98% capacity. So it isn't like they have been having stellar teams of late, but yet the people still keep coming. Yeah I realize last year was because of Sidney but those other years they really had crap. Their marquee player was Ryan Malone and the GM was trading players for a pack of gum and some cash. Just look at the Jagr and Kovalev deals.

And while you bring up the Royals having good attendance for bad teams, did you know that since 2000 the Pirates have outdrew the Royals by over 2 million fans? The Pirates have not had a winning season since the early 90s. I would assume that the Chiefs and Steelers draw comparable numbers with respect to their stadium size. I know there is a waiting list for Steeler tickets that is upwards of 20 years. So the loyalty is here, good or bad teams.

Bettman has come out and said that he thinks the Pens should stay in Pittsburgh. Why do you think the Blackberry owner pulled back his offer? Because Bettman made it known that if Pittsburgh gives a halfway decent offer to bulid an Arena, the NHL would make it very difficult if not impossible for them to move the team to KC. I think that is what the Lemieux Group is trying to show right now. Because if they don't Bettman will try his best to block it and also if Bettman lets the Lemieux group move without any hard evidence that the Pittsburgh Deal is not a good one, he'll get his ass sued by the Blackberry owner. It is their (ownerships) last card, and now that Bettman is coming on Thursday he'll get to witness first hand what the talks and the deal being presented is like.

Mario just wants the money he is owed. The man is tired of this game and just wants to retire. Also he has a lot of loyalty to the team and the city. He has stated many times that he wants to stay in Pittsburgh to live after he retires. I doubt he does that if the team moves to KC. I really believe that it would be a last resort that Mario would allow the Pens to move. But I really can't blame the guy, he just wants what is owed to him and to enjoy retirement.

Finally, KC "rent free" deal does have it perks but let's not make it out to be the best thing since sliced bread. The KC deal does not let the ownership have any hand in the venues that take place that aren't hockey. That is being included in the Pittsburgh deal along with the Pens being in full control of the parking and concession reveune. While "rent free" has a great ring to it, it isn't super as it sounds.

It is pretty well known that stuff does not get done without major threats, scares and usually resolves itself at the 11th hour. So this is where we are at now. I do believe Mario is prepared to move the team if it comes to it, but I still think in the end they will still be in Pittsburgh.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by bsak16

The only reason I even got remotely testy with any of my responses was because you seem to be the know all about this situation and refuse to listen to anyone else's point of view. You've been basically reporting since the beginning that the Pens to KC would be a done deal anyday. Plus you sit there and say how KC is leaps and bounds ahead of Pittsburgh, so yeah you are going to get people throwing it back at you. You can read all the articles in the papers that you want, but there is one thing I have found about writers in this town. They are very pessimistic.

It is pretty well known that stuff does not get done without major threats, scares and usually resolves itself at the 11th hour. So this is where we are at now. I do believe Mario is prepared to move the team if it comes to it, but I still think in the end they will still be in Pittsburgh.

I shortened up your quote to avoid a monster post.

My post was actually not in relation to anything you had posted, but rather some of the things that were published in the paper today as well as the general barbs on Penguin fan boards. You had said you weren't even a Pens fan and not from Pittsburgh.

Whatever the case, I think there's actually some very good discussion in this thread. All cities go through this type of thing. Having actually lived less than an hour from Philadelphia for a couple of years until moving back to KC last summer, I'm pretty aware actually of what's going on in Pennsylvania. The western 2/3 of Pennsylvania are really struggling right now. It's not nearly as vibrant and attractive area as it used to be.

Also, a couple of points in regard to your population movement discussion. First, you mentioned that the population is simply moving out to the subarb areas. The population information backs that up to an extent. The population of the city of Pittsburgh has fallen steadily at a 9.5% clip over the past 25 years........

Pittsburgh, PA


City Population

1980: 423,959

1990: 369,879

2000: 334,563

2003 estimate: 325,337

Percent change, 1990–2000: -9.5%


So the city itself has lost roughly 25% of its total population. That in itself should be frightening to city leaders. They're losing a lot of tax base in the city proper and it's going to other areas. As a metro area, a dying urban core is a very bad thing. You don't want your population to move out to other areas. The key to a vibrant city is to keep the urban core progressive and growing. Here are the stats for the metro Pittsburgh area.



Metropolitan Area Population

1980: 2,219,000

1990: 2,394,811

2000: 2,358,695

Percent change, 1990–2000: -1.5%


So those stats seem to show that the 100,000 have stayed and population has slightly increased. Now, here are the same numbers for Kansas City.


Kansas City


City Population

1980: 448,028

1990: 431,236

2000: 441,545

2003 estimate: 442,768

Percent change, 1990–2000: 1.5%


Metropolitan Area Population

1980: 1,433,000

1990: 1,582,875

2000: 1,776,062

Percent change, 1990–2000: 12.2%

Note the differences. Kansas City has a stable urban core from a population perspective. In addition, the growth rate of the overall metro area is borderline explosive. FWIW.....current estimates now show that growth rate is in the 15% range. KC is currently adding 20,000 resident A YEAR right now. Pittsburgh's metro area actually lost 40,000 residents between 1990 and 2000. That's not what you want to see in your city if you're a Pittsburgh resident.

[KevinNU7]

Wow, that was a long one

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I shortened up your quote to avoid a monster post.

My post was actually not in relation to anything you had posted, but rather some of the things that were published in the paper today as well as the general barbs on Penguin fan boards. You had said you weren't even a Pens fan and not from Pittsburgh.

Whatever the case, I think there's actually some very good discussion in this thread. All cities go through this type of thing. Having actually lived less than an hour from Philadelphia for a couple of years until moving back to KC last summer, I'm pretty aware actually of what's going on in Pennsylvania. The western 2/3 of Pennsylvania are really struggling right now. It's not nearly as vibrant and attractive area as it used to be.

Also, a couple of points in regard to your population movement discussion. First, you mentioned that the population is simply moving out to the subarb areas. The population information backs that up to an extent. The population of the city of Pittsburgh has fallen steadily at a 9.5% clip over the past 25 years........

Pittsburgh, PA


City Population

1980: 423,959

1990: 369,879

2000: 334,563

2003 estimate: 325,337

Percent change, 1990–2000: -9.5%


So the city itself has lost roughly 25% of its total population. That in itself should be frightening to city leaders. They're losing a lot of tax base in the city proper and it's going to other areas. As a metro area, a dying urban core is a very bad thing. You don't want your population to move out to other areas. The key to a vibrant city is to keep the urban core progressive and growing. Here are the stats for the metro Pittsburgh area.



Metropolitan Area Population

1980: 2,219,000

1990: 2,394,811

2000: 2,358,695

Percent change, 1990–2000: -1.5%


So those stats seem to show that the 100,000 have stayed and population has slightly increased. Now, here are the same numbers for Kansas City.


Kansas City


City Population

1980: 448,028

1990: 431,236

2000: 441,545

2003 estimate: 442,768

Percent change, 1990–2000: 1.5%


Metropolitan Area Population

1980: 1,433,000

1990: 1,582,875

2000: 1,776,062

Percent change, 1990–2000: 12.2%

Note the differences. Kansas City has a stable urban core from a population perspective. In addition, the growth rate of the overall metro area is borderline explosive. FWIW.....current estimates now show that growth rate is in the 15% range. KC is currently adding 20,000 resident A YEAR right now. Pittsburgh's metro area actually lost 40,000 residents between 1990 and 2000. That's not what you want to see in your city if you're a Pittsburgh resident.

I've alluded to this is in previous posts, but...

If we are talking attracting people to the city, it goes WAY beyond the arena. The city has been crumbling for decades, as your numbers show.

I work in town, actually for the company which the current building is named after. I live in the suburbs, but it is less than 7 miles from my front door to my desk.

There are attractions on what is called the South Side (as the name would have you believe, the south portion of the city)...but it is over river from the true downtown area. Same goes for the North Shore, where the Steelers and Pirates stadiums are, and the development around those (also where the casino is to be built). There is NOTHING in town. about 8-10 blocks from the arena is the Cultural district, the symphony hall and playhouse. Other than that, there is the arena. Nights of Pens games, there are 17,000 people in town who otherwise would be getting into their cars/buses/trolleys to go back home.

They actually are attempting to lure people back into town by converting older office spaces into condos--at about $500,000 a pop. As a 31 year old with two kids, why in the world am I moving into the downtown area at that price?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

They actually are attempting to lure people back into town by converting older office spaces into condos--at about $500,000 a pop. As a 31 year old with two kids, why in the world am I moving into the downtown area at that price?

Kansas City was at that stage about 10-15 years ago. They were trying to get people to move downtown, but no one would move there because there were no services or entertainment in the area. Now, they've built a new arena downtown and an entertainment and shopping district next door. Also, they added services like new grocery stores and restaurants. Now, they can't build the condos fast enough. The urban core is seeing tremendous residential growth as a result. Also, they're not looking to get 31 year old people to move down there. They're looking to draw empty nest baby-boomers who are looking to downsize. The problem is that until they get lots of things in the area to do, retirees aren't going to want to move there because nothing is convinient. If the city population continues to decline at a 10% clip, it's unlikely that many services will want to open up shop in places where less and less people reside.

[kcchief19]

I think Mizzou-B-Ball and bsak have both brought up great points and counterpoints. Only two initial impressions.

Originally Posted by bsak16

And while you bring up the Royals having good attendance for bad teams, did you know that since 2000 the Pirates have outdrew the Royals by over 2 million fans? The Pirates have not had a winning season since the early 90s.

I think the Pirates/Royals support is pretty comparable in both cities. I'm not doubting the 2 million fan difference since 2000, but I think the bulk of that difference would certainly have been fueled by the new stadium in Pittsburgh. Discount that, and I think fan support is a wash.

Originally Posted by bsak16

Finally, KC "rent free" deal does have it perks but let's not make it out to be the best thing since sliced bread. The KC deal does not let the ownership have any hand in the venues that take place that aren't hockey. That is being included in the Pittsburgh deal along with the Pens being in full control of the parking and concession reveune. While "rent free" has a great ring to it, it isn't super as it sounds.

For clarification, the KC deal would make the Penguins equaly partners in the arena with no buy-in. They would receive 50 percent of all non-hockey revenue from concerts, trade shows, arena football and other events. The no buy-in portion of the KC offer was more significant than the free rent in most respects. The only thing they would get in Pittsburgh they don't get in Kansas City is parking revenue because virtually all our parking is privately owned. Financially, the Kansas City deal is far superior than the deal in Pittsburgh -- even the team has admitted that.

But, as I said before, I don't think this is about money in more. The only reason for Pittsburgh to stay in Pittsburgh is loyalty to the fans. I believe the team is willing to put up with a lot of grief from the local government to stay, and the only reason they would leave is because they no longer trust and cannot work with the local government.

Like MBBF said, I'll be bittersweet if the Penguins come here because while I'll be very excited to get a great young team here, I'd hate to see a team with such a connection to its city leave. We've been there before. The A's left town in such a bad deal that the AL immediately guaranteed to give us a new team virtually the moment they left -- the 1969 round of MLB expansion was primarily because Charley Finley screwed us so badly. The Kings were doing well in Kansas City, and actually were more profitable in Kansas City than they were during their early days in Sacremento. The Scouts were so poorly run that they failed in Denver too. We now what it's liked to get hosed.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

But, as I said before, I don't think this is about money in more. The only reason for Pittsburgh to stay in Pittsburgh is loyalty to the fans. I believe the team is willing to put up with a lot of grief from the local government to stay, and the only reason they would leave is because they no longer trust and cannot work with the local government.

Totally agree with this point. If it were a situation where the team was looking for the best deal financially, the Penguins would have been committed to KC a few months ago. The difference financially is quite a bit. Pittsburgh should be thanking their lucky stars for Mario. They're painting him as the bad guy on a lot of the fan boards, but he's honestly the only reason they still have a chance at keeping the team in the city.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Pittsburgh should be thanking their lucky stars for Mario. They're painting him as the bad guy on a lot of the fan boards, but he's honestly the only reason they still have a chance at keeping the team in the city.

Mario's been the only reason that city's had a team for the last 20 years.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Wow, lots of changes in the this situation over the last few hours. Las Vegas is basically out judging from the comments in the article below. Houston has removed itself from consideration. The reason? Kansas City officials have 'substantially sweetened' their deal that was already considered the best offer to the point where Houston officials feel they have no chance at even offering a comparable offer. Also, the meeting on Friday that was supposed to be in KC will now be held at the AEG business offices in Los Angeles, who are building and will own the new arena in KC.

Tomorrow's meeting with PA officials becomes even more important now. They need to really nail something down tomorrow to keep themselves in the running. Allowing the ownership group to go to the AEG business offices in LA with any level of bad vibes regarding the PA officials could make for big problems at this point. I'm guessing that we'll hear specifics on what was added to the KC deal tomorrow or Friday. Local radio is reporting that the Penguins were floored by the new additions.

Although this sweetens the deal for the Pens, it really doesn't change much in regards to the city of Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh has always had an inferior offer when compared to KC's offer. All that has happened now is KC showing that they're willing to make the effort to be more than just a pawn in this situation and to put further pressure on Pittsburgh to work quickly. The problem is that without an arena in progress and with part of the funding for a future arena tied up in multiple lawsuits, the Pittsburgh officials are going to have a really tough time reacting as quickly as they need to in order to get things done. Really interesting move by KC and AEG officials.


Houston drops out of bidding for Penguins
Wednesday, March 07, 2007

By Mark Belko, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

As state and local political leaders prepared for talks tomorrow with officials of the Pittsburgh Penguins, a city that was interested in having the team move there said it was dropping out of the running.

City of Houston officials said the city was dropping its pursuit of the team for now, saying it could not compete with a new offer from Kansas City.

Michael Moore, chief of staff to Houston Mayor Bill White, said Kansas City had "sweetened substantially" an earlier offer to the Penguins that included free rent and half the building revenues at the new Sprint Center.

"We want an NHL team but we're not going to give everything away," he said. "We're not going to get into this bidding war back and forth."

He said one factor is that Houston already has the National Basketball Association Rockets playing at the Toyota Center, while Kansas City is trying to fill an empty arena.

Earlier in the day, Penguins co-owner Ron Burkle met with Las Vegas Mayor Oscar Goodman to explore a possible move. Mr. Goodman has been seeking to bring a National Basketball Association or National Hockey League team to Las Vegas.

"They had a very pleasant conversation," said Elena Owens, special assistant to the mayor.

She did not know how long the parties met or whether they planned to meet again.

In Las Vegas, the Penguins most likely would have to play in the 23-year-old Thomas & Mack Center until city officials find funding to build a new arena. The Thomas & Mack Center was used for the NBA All-Star Game and won anything but rave reviews from NBA Commissioner David Stern, who said the league would not return to the arena.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Today's article pretty much confirms what was implied last night. Very important meeting for Pittsburgh's chances happens today. They've got to get something to the point today where the Pens ownership calls off the meeting with KC/AEG officials. If they walk out of that meeting today without substantial progress, that's not going to be good for Pittsburgh.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07067/767816-61.stm

Penguins owners will meet with officials, NHL chief today in Philadelphia
Thursday, March 08, 2007

By Mark Belko and Tom Barnes, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette


Penguins officials will meet with state and local leaders today in Philadelphia in what could be a pivotal moment in deciding whether the team stays here or moves elsewhere next season

Penguins co-owners Mario Lemieux and Ron Burkle will meet with Gov. Ed Rendell, Allegheny County Chief Executive Dan Onorato and Pittsburgh Mayor Luke Ravenstahl.

The stakes are so high that National Hockey League Commissioner Gary Bettman, who has been serving as a go-between for the last three weeks, will sit in on the negotiations.

The fact that the meeting is being held in Mr. Rendell's hometown, known for its rough-and-tumble style, is not lost on team officials. Sources close to the Penguins warn privately that Mr. Rendell's style may not be ideally suited for this delicate stage of the talks and said a more collegial approach could hasten the conclusion of negotiations.

A day after vowing that political leaders may go to the NHL to block a move of the team, Mr. Rendell softened his tone yesterday, saying he was "still optimistic" the Penguins would remain in Pittsburgh.

"I think we're pretty close. And I'm looking forward to the next meeting as hopefully even wrapping it up," he told reporters in Harrisburg.

Today's hastily arranged make-or-break session comes four days after Mr. Lemieux and Mr. Burkle declared an impasse in talks over a new arena and said they would "aggressively explore" a possible relocation.

Since receiving the letter Monday declaring the impasse, Mr. Ravenstahl and Mr. Onorato also have been reaching out to the team. Mr. Onorato said yesterday it would be a "tragedy" if the Penguins left Pittsburgh given how close the two sides were.

He said his goal heading into today's meeting is to find out what led negotiations to break down, to resolve it and "to close the deal."

"I think this is the meeting to get it done," he said.

Even as state and local leaders prepare for a crucial face-off, Mr. Burkle and other team officials began exploring other options, meeting for about an hour yesterday with Las Vegas Mayor Oscar Goodman in his office.

"They had a very pleasant conversation," said Elena Owens, special assistant to the mayor.

Mr. Goodman, who has been actively seeking a professional sports team, would not give reporters any details of his talks.

According to the Las Vegas Review-Journal, Mr. Goodman was asked whether he thought Las Vegas was being used as a bargaining chip in the Pittsburgh negotiations. He replied, "I learned that lesson a long time ago. I will never allow the city to be used as leverage."

Team officials also talked yesterday with Tim Lewieke, president of Anschutz Entertainment Group, which will manage the $276 million Sprint Center in Kansas City, to be ready by next season. Officials there have offered a deal that includes no rent or construction costs and a split of the building revenues.

The Penguins also were looking to talk to officials in Houston about a possible relocation, but in a new development last night, Houston dropped its pursuit of the team for now, saying it could not compete with a new offer from Kansas City.

Michael Moore, chief of staff to Houston Mayor Bill White, said Kansas City had "sweetened substantially" an earlier offer to the Penguins that included free rent and half the building revenues at the new Sprint Center.

"We want an NHL team, but we're not going to give everything away," he said. "We're not going to get into this bidding war back and forth."

He said one factor is that Houston already has the NBA Rockets playing at the Toyota Center, while Kansas City is trying to fill an empty arena.

Today, all eyes will be on Philadelphia, where state and local leaders hope to salvage a deal they thought was close to being completed, only to learn otherwise from the team.

The Penguins have agreed to put up $4 million a year toward a new arena -- the same amount Mr. Rendell asked the team to chip in a year ago when he unveiled his Plan B funding formula. That includes $3.6 million a year in rent and $400,000 annually toward capital improvements.

Mr. Lemieux and Mr. Burkle said in their letter they can contribute no more. They also are putting up $500,000 a year for a parking garage.

Under Plan B, another $7.5 million a year would come from casino licensee Don Barden. The state also has pledged $7.5 million a year, up $500,000 since negotiations began, from a gambling-backed economic development fund.

One of the key economic issues still to be decided is how to account for an extra $20 million added as a contingency to a proposed arena bond issue, bringing the total borrowing to $290 million.

There's also a question of whether the money on the table will be enough. The Penguins believe the gambling and team contributions will cover the $290 million; the state believes there's still a gap.

For the team, however, the talks may be as much about tone as substance. The Penguins were upset that public officials pulled back on an initial offer that set their contribution at $2.8 million as well as a table-pounding outburst by Mr. Rendell Jan. 18.

Sources close to the team indicated the last straw came Friday when state officials refused to share interest rate information with them in the dispute over whether more money was needed in the financing plan.

At the same time, Penguins have been welcomed with open arms in Kansas City, where corporate leaders have pledged support in ticket sales and sponsorships.

Despite the ruffled feathers, Mr. Rendell said he is still hopeful an agreement can be reached. He said he told Mr. Bettman the same thing after getting the letter from the Penguins declaring an impasse.

"I said, 'Commissioner, notwithstanding this letter, I think we're making great progress and I actually think we are very close,' " he said.

Mr. Rendell said he sees no "financial advantage" for the Penguins in a move to Las Vegas, because, like Pittsburgh, it would have to build a new hockey arena from scratch. That differs from Kansas City, which is completing a new arena and wants a hockey team to fill it.

Mr. Rendell said that since the two sides started meeting two months ago, the Penguins have asked for about 14 changes from the original Plan B proposal. He said his "guess" is that public officials have "made 12 or 13 of the 14."

The Penguins also have raised concerns about the impact the losers' appeals of the Pittsburgh slots license award will have on funding, although Mr. Onorato and Mr. Ravenstahl did not see that as a major impediment.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Pretty off the topic here, but about 2 weeks ago, I passed Dan Onarato on my way to work. I was getting coffee, he was walking down Grant Street (no doubt to check out the Convention Center that is also falling apart)...
I was tempted to kick him in the shin and tell him to quit jagging off Mario.
But I opted for a keep the Pens as I crossed the street.

And Yes, today is pretty much the day.

[Dr. Sak]

The latest news is that the Penguins agreed to allow Rendell free reign of the concessions stands during their games as part of the deal. Since stuffing his fat face is the only thing Rendell is even slight competent at I don't see any reason why the deal won't get done.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by bsak16

The latest news is that the Penguins agreed to allow Rendell free reign of the concessions stands during their games as part of the deal. Since stuffing his fat face is the only thing Rendell is even slight competent at I don't see any reason why the deal won't get done.

Except he'll have to drive in from Philly. Of course, with his driver doing about 110 down the turnpike, he'll be here in no time.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

Except he'll have to drive in from Philly. Of course, with his driver doing about 110 down the turnpike, he'll be here in no time.

Another funny off topic story about Rendell. He came to our work to visit our Manufacturing plant. Our HR department told all of us engineers to leave early for the day because they know non of us like him. So I am walking out next to a co-worker as we part to go to our cars. I get a call 2 mins later from that co-worker telling me he almost got hit by a car speeding through the parking lot, and guess who's car it was? Yep Ed Rendell.

[Suburban Rhythm]

This might have been posted in this thread already, but found it interesting...

http://www.bizjournals.com/specials/...rextend/1.html

Pittsburgh is the 4th most over-extended sports market....KC is 5th.

[Dr. Sak]

Critical arena meeting today with Pens, Rendell
By Andrew Conte and Rob Rossi
TRIBUNE-REVIEW

After a "pleasant conversation" Wednesday with Las Vegas Mayor Oscar Goodman, Penguins officials are expected back in Pennsylvania today for a make-or-break meeting on building a new Pittsburgh arena.

Team owners Mario Lemieux and Ron Burkle planned to meet in Philadelphia with Gov. Ed Rendell, said team spokesman Tom McMillan. Burkle traveled to Las Vegas without Lemieux.

The California billionaire also intended to talk with AEG, the company operating Kansas City's new Sprint Center, McMillan said.

Penguins officials decided not to hold a meeting in Houston with city leaders and officials of the Toyota Center, an arena official in Texas said.


If negotiations with the Penguins don't succeed, "we would certainly not take it lying down," Rendell said yesterday. "I would feel a deep obligation to the people of Pittsburgh, the Pittsburgh region and the Penguins' fans."

National Hockey League Commissioner Gary Bettman and Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly are expected to attend the meeting in Philadelphia. Rendell reiterated that he would seek the league's help to keep the team from leaving.

"Again, I don't believe that will be necessary," Rendell said, calling the latest offer "a great stadium deal."

The meeting comes after Lemieux and Burkle declared an impasse in the arena talks and said they would "aggressively explore relocation." The team's lease at Mellon Arena expires in June.

This is a vital meeting for a deal to be reached in Pittsburgh, said Marc Ganis, president of SportsCorp, a Chicago-based consulting firm, who advised local officials on securing stadiums for the Steelers and Pirates.

"The sides don't have to come to an agreement," Ganis said. "What they have to do is convince Bettman that the deal on the table in Pennsylvania is substantial and that there is flexibility to resolve the open issues."

In Las Vegas, Burkle met privately with Goodman, who emerged saying he had a "very pleasant conversation" with the Penguins officials, said the mayor's spokeswoman, Elena Owens.

Goodman told the Las Vegas Review-Journal he does not believe the Penguins are using Las Vegas as leverage to secure a quick resolution to the arena situation in Pittsburgh. Penguins officials did not tour the Thomas & Mack Center and there are no plans for them to do so, said facility director Daren Libonati.

A spokesman for Houston Mayor Bill White said the city extended an invitation to team owners. The Penguins would have to share Houston's Toyota Center with the National Basketball Association's Rockets.

"We put the ball in their court. When we heard what was going on up there, we said the offer is still open to come down here and check it out," said mayoral spokesman Michael Moore.

However, Tad Brown, the CEO of Clutch City Sports & Entertainment, which operates the Toyota Center, said last night the Penguins decided against a meeting.

"They decided not to come," Brown said, explaining that he understands Kansas City officials have sweetened their offer to the Penguins.

"It sounds like Kansas City has offered them a much more favorable deal," Brown said.

An official with AEG confirmed last night that it has sweetened the offer.

In January, Kansas City officials offered the Penguins free rent and partial revenue to play in the new Sprint Center.

"We don't spend our days worrying about whether or not they will leave Pittsburgh, but we do now strongly believe that Kansas City is where they will end up," said Michael Roth, vice president of communications for AEG.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I think the Pirates/Royals support is pretty comparable in both cities. I'm not doubting the 2 million fan difference since 2000, but I think the bulk of that difference would certainly have been fueled by the new stadium in Pittsburgh. Discount that, and I think fan support is a wash.

Yes, that was one of those situations where the stats he used don't tell the actual story. The stadium is what caused that difference. Also, using the population information that I gave earlier, Pittsburgh actually has 28% more people than KC in their metro area (2000 census). Given that information, you'll actually find that per capita, Pittsburgh actually drew less fans than Kansas City did 2000-present even with the boost caused by the stadiums. Also, Pittsburgh averaged 3 wins more than Kansas City during that time period. Neither won any division championships.

Here are the numbers from 2000-present:

KC averaged roughly 1.55M fans per season in a city of roughly 1.75M people. The team averaged 66 wins during that time period.

Pittsburgh averaged roughly 1.85M fans per season in a city of roughly 2.4M people. The team averaged 69 wins during that time period.


The numbers are even worse for Pittsburgh if you go back to 1990. Note that Pittsburgh held a 33% advantage in population in 1990. Here are those statistics for 1990-present:

KC averaged roughly 1.73M fans per season during that time period. The team averaged 70 wins during that time period and had 4 winning seasons with no division championships.

Pittsburgh averaged roughly 1.61M fans per season during that time period. The team averaged 74 wins during that time period and had 3 winning seasons with 3 division championships.


So, in summary, Kansas City drew over 100,000 more fans per season in a town that's roughly 30% smaller than Pittsburgh to see a team that won less games per season, had no division championships and had no new stadium to increase fan interest. The fallacy that somehow KC doesn't support the Royals is exactly that......totally false.

Here's the raw data if anyone is curious.......

http://kansascity.royals.mlb.com/kc/...ar_results.jsp

http://pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/pi...ar_results.jsp

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Yes, that was one of those situations where the stats he used don't tell the actual story. The stadium is what caused that difference. Also, using the population information that I gave earlier, Pittsburgh actually has 28% more people than KC in their metro area (2000 census). Given that information, you'll actually find that per capita, Pittsburgh actually drew less fans than Kansas City did 2000-present even with the boost caused by the stadiums. Also, Pittsburgh averaged 3 wins more than Kansas City during that time period. Neither won any division championships.

Here are the numbers from 2000-present:

KC averaged roughly 1.55M fans per season in a city of roughly 1.75M people. The team averaged 66 wins during that time period.

Pittsburgh averaged roughly 1.85M fans per season in a city of roughly 2.4M people. The team averaged 69 wins during that time period.


The numbers are even worse for Pittsburgh if you go back to 1990. Note that Pittsburgh held a 33% advantage in population in 1990. Here are those statistics for 1990-present:

KC averaged roughly 1.73M fans per season during that time period. The team averaged 70 wins during that time period and had 4 winning seasons with no division championships.

Pittsburgh averaged roughly 1.61M fans per season during that time period. The team averaged 74 wins during that time period and had 3 winning seasons with 3 division championships.


So, in summary, Kansas City drew over 100,000 more fans per season in a town that's roughly 30% smaller than Pittsburgh to see a team that won less games per season, had no division championships and had no new stadium to increase fan interest. The fallacy that somehow KC doesn't support the Royals is exactly that......totally false.

Here's the raw data if anyone is curious.......

http://kansascity.royals.mlb.com/kc/...ar_results.jsp

http://pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/pi...ar_results.jsp

Not going to dispute those numbers, but that is comparing apples to oranges.

Baseball, in Pittsburgh anyway, is a leisure activity. People go to 1) see the (relatively) new park 2) be outside somewhere nice in the summer and 3) perhaps see a baseball game. But the game is distinctly third.

Basing hockey attendance (Pittsburgh's actual and KC's projected) off that is a little silly. Why not use the Chiefs and Steelers, both who have sold out every game for the last how many years?

To add on from from post yesterday, this seems to be the argument--

I get what you are saying, declincing population/tax base, etc etc, how in the world can they afford to build a new building?
What reply is this-- how can they afford not to? The Downtown area is DEAD without that arena.

If the Penguins leave, there will be clamoring for a new multi-purpose building in about 3 years. While they still might be able to get the casino money and other state funds, who is then picking up the $4M a year or so the Pens were contributing? There would be no main tenant to fork over what amounts to about 20% of the cost.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

Not going to dispute those numbers, but that is comparing apples to oranges.

Baseball, in Pittsburgh anyway, is a leisure activity. People go to 1) see the (relatively) new park 2) be outside somewhere nice in the summer and 3) perhaps see a baseball game. But the game is distinctly third.

Basing hockey attendance (Pittsburgh's actual and KC's projected) off that is a little silly. Why not use the Chiefs and Steelers, both who have sold out every game for the last how many years?

To add on from from post yesterday, this seems to be the argument--

I get what you are saying, declincing population/tax base, etc etc, how in the world can they afford to build a new building?
What reply is this-- how can they afford not to? The Downtown area is DEAD without that arena.

If the Penguins leave, there will be clamoring for a new multi-purpose building in about 3 years. While they still might be able to get the casino money and other state funds, who is then picking up the $4M a year or so the Pens were contributing? There would be no main tenant to fork over what amounts to about 20% of the cost.

Chiefs and Steelers are pretty much the same situation from 1990 on. There's no difference overall from a percentage of seats sold. The Steelers have had more post-season success, though I'd have to check to see regular season wins. I only responded about baseball because that was what he brought up as a way to show increased support. I agree that it doesn't relate to hockey totally, but it was a bad example to use given the numbers I posted.

Let's assume that the Penguins leave for KC. If that happens, Pittsburgh will just end up having a situation much like Cleveland did with the Browns. The NHL will move a team or give an expansion team to that city that would have been headed for KC if the Pens hadn't moved there. Pittsburgh will build a new arena for that team and hockey will be back in Pittsburgh. To some extent, the real competition here is not who gets the Pens, but rather who gets the team with the talented young nucleus that the Pens currently have. Both cities will eventually end up with NHL teams a few years from now.

[Dr. Sak]

I'm not sure if Suburban can confirm this or not but Crosby has been pretty vocal in recent interviews that he doesn't want to go to KC. He has even hinted that when he becomes a RFA at the end of next season he would look to go elsewhere. And I do believe that teams would be willing to part with the huge amounts of draft picks they would lose by signing him as a RFA.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Chiefs and Steelers are pretty much the same situation from 1990 on. There's no difference overall from a percentage of seats sold. The Steelers have had more post-season success, though I'd have to check to see regular season wins. I only responded about baseball because that was what he brought up as a way to show increased support. I agree that it doesn't relate to hockey totally, but it was a bad example to use given the numbers I posted.

Let's assume that the Penguins leave for KC. If that happens, Pittsburgh will just end up having a situation much like Cleveland did with the Browns. The NHL will move a team or give an expansion team to that city that would have been headed for KC if the Pens hadn't moved there. Pittsburgh will build a new arena for that team and hockey will be back in Pittsburgh. To some extent, the real competition here is not who gets the Pens, but rather who gets the team with the talented young nucleus that the Pens currently have. Both cities will eventually end up with NHL teams a few years from now.

I'd like to think that is the case, although I'd prefer just to keep the Pens here.

But, same as KC looking to draw a team, a new building in a must first. KC built their's with no tenant. For Pittsburgh to do that, the money needs to come from somewhere. If that $4M makeup comes from either existing Regional Asset District tax money, or a tax increase, why isn't that an option now?

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by bsak16

I'm not sure if Suburban can confirm this or not but Crosby has been pretty vocal in recent interviews that he doesn't want to go to KC. He has even hinted that when he becomes a RFA at the end of next season he would look to go elsewhere. And I do believe that teams would be willing to part with the huge amounts of draft picks they would lose by signing him as a RFA.

Can't say I've heard that.

He has said in the past he would accept below market (which for him would be the league max) if it meant keeping the roster intact.

Not refuting what you are saying bsak, but Sid also seems to always have the right/politcally correct answer for everything. I don't know that he'd come out and say that to the media.

Something to keep in mind once he hits RFA-
1) I believe he must actually reach RFA. If I understand the current CBA, the Penguins can NOT negotiate an extension with him while he's still in his entry deal.
2) However, he is under no obligation to sign any offer sheets. The other 29 teams can all offer him max deals, but if he chooses not to sign the offer, it doesn't matter.
3) If he does choose to sign the offer, the Pens will match it. Period.

He's Penguins/whatever the KC name would be property until he's 25, at least.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

Can't say I've heard that.

He has said in the past he would accept below market (which for him would be the league max) if it meant keeping the roster intact.

Not refuting what you are saying bsak, but Sid also seems to always have the right/politcally correct answer for everything. I don't know tha the'd come out and say that to the media.

Something to keep in mind once he hits RFA-
1) I believe he must actually reach RFA. If I understand the current CBA, the Penguins can NOT negotiate an extension with him while he's still in his entry deal.
2) However, he is under no obligation to sign an offer sheets. The other 29 teams can all offer him max deals, but if he chooses not to sign the offer, it doesn't matter.
3) If he does choose to sign the offer, the Pens will match it. Period.

He's Penguins/whatever the KC name would be property until he's 25, at least.

I know I found it some where while digging around yesterday. I am still searching. Side note...this makes me sick sticking up for Crosby. I really can't stand him.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by bsak16

I'm not sure if Suburban can confirm this or not but Crosby has been pretty vocal in recent interviews that he doesn't want to go to KC. He has even hinted that when he becomes a RFA at the end of next season he would look to go elsewhere. And I do believe that teams would be willing to part with the huge amounts of draft picks they would lose by signing him as a RFA.

To be honest, what the players want doesn't really doesn't matter all that much. There are going to be some that love going there and some that don't like it at all. In future years, KC would be very attractive to some and not attractive to others. It's all relative.

KC is known for being well-liked as a place to play in general. The media pressure is relatively low, the schools and community are very laid back and the fans are a loyal bunch. The Chiefs have the highest percentage of all NFL teams of players who stay in the community after their careers are over. The Royals are in the top 5 in the MLB on that same stat. There always going to be some people that don't want to come to certain markets in certain situations.

My understanding from what I've read is that if the Pens, wherever they end up, want to keep Crosby for the foreseeable future, they can do that under the NHL rules regarding players that young. Even if he were to leave, the draft picks would be instrumental in building the franchise.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

WOW! The KC/AEG group improved the offer significantly to the Penguins ownership group. KC has now offered to build a new exclusive practice facility for the Penguins (10-15M is the rough guess on that offer) plus they have increased the percentage of profits that the Penguins get from arena revenues (previous offer was that the Penguins would get 50% of all event revenue, including concerts, sporting events, and convention meetings in the arena).

This is going to make it even tougher for Pittsburgh. They need to make sure that the ownership group doesn't leave the table in Philly today until a deal is done. Best part of this deal is that KC is still not spending a dime more. All of these additions come out of the private sector from the AEG group. I honestly never knew what a difference a privately-run arena could have for the community. They take all the risks and the community is in a win-win situation. It's a wonderful position to be in for Kansas City.

[Dr. Sak]

I really don't think it matters how much Kansas City sweetens their offer at this point. Read the articles on ESPN and even TSN. All of them clearly state that if there is a reasonable offer from the city the league is going to force (for lack of a better term right now) the Penguins to accept the offer and stay in Pittsburgh.

People have been calling Bettman's office all day yesterday and today. The response that they get from his secretary is "The NHL does not want to lose this market, who she said is "one of our strongest". And that Mr Bettman will do what he can to help the situation."

There's no doubt that the KC deal is better but what KC doesn't have right now is the support of the NHL removing a team from "one of the strongest" fan bases to a place where hockey failed once. You can say how much things have changed over the years but the fact is KC had a team and lost it.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by bsak16

I really don't think it matters how much Kansas City sweetens their offer at this point. Read the articles on ESPN and even TSN. All of them clearly state that if there is a reasonable offer from the city the league is going to force (for lack of a better term right now) the Penguins to accept the offer and stay in Pittsburgh.

People have been calling Bettman's office all day yesterday and today. The response that they get from his secretary is "The NHL does not want to lose this market, who she said is "one of our strongest". And that Mr Bettman will do what he can to help the situation."

There's no doubt that the KC deal is better but what KC doesn't have right now is the support of the NHL removing a team from "one of the strongest" fan bases to a place where hockey failed once. You can say how much things have changed over the years but the fact is KC had a team and lost it.

To some extent, you are correct that the NHL would like to keep a team in the Pittsburgh market. I certainly don't think that you're wrong in that regard. However, even if the team were to leave, it would be likely that they would do something like what they did with the Cleveland Browns where the city would hold onto the name and they'd just give Pittsburgh a new franchise once they have the whole arena thing straightened out.

With that said, I think your idea that the NHL will turn down this kind of offer simply due to loyalty is a bit out of line with reality. The NHL is still recovering from the sting of the strike/lockout from a couple of years ago. Media revenue is way down from what it was and there are a lot of teams that simply aren't making the money that they used to. The NHL would set a dangerous precedent if it were to hold the Pens in Pittsburgh without an arena deal simply because they want to keep the team in place. The NHL can't force the Pens to pay $120M into an arena deal that could cost them millions in extra fees. Granted, this could be resolved, but it doesn't appear that the government is willing to take on that risk that they're trying to pass on to the team at this point.

The other reason it sets a dangerous precedent is the vast difference in offers. The difference in cash outlay when you put together what it would cost the Pens in Pittsburgh and the free facility with practice facility alone is $130-135 million dollars. That's not pocket change. That doesn't even include the percentage of revenue that the Pens would received from all events at the arena. The fact that the Pens (specifically Mario Lemieux) is even continuing negotiations due to loyalty to Pittsburgh in the face of these numbers is honestly quite amazing. 99% of people would have already moved the franchise at this point.

Let's assume a block on the move for a moment. The reason a block would be dangerous is that the Board of Governors would be essentially telling other owners that they have to take offers that are vastly inferior to a bid from another town solely due to loyalty to that city and its fan base despite the fact that the increased unknown costs down the road may hurt the franchises bottom line. As a NHL owner trying to maximize the profit and equity in your investment, how would you feel if you were put in that position in future years because of the Pittsburgh block? It's not a good way to do business and the Board of Governors and the team owners woudn't be wise to put themselves in that kind of a position.

[KevinNU7]

Originally Posted by bsak16

You can say how much things have changed over the years but the fact is KC had a team and lost it.

OMG! What a stupid sentence.

[Butter]

Mizzou, you seem like a decent enough guy, and I don't have a dog in this fight, and I do not mean to offend you...

but your hard-on for all things Kansas City and Missouri gets really old at times. Like now.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

......but your hard-on for all things........

I'm a porn star. I'm paid to have a hard-on.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled Pens discussion.

[KevinNU7]

One thing to highlight is that with everything AEG is offering in KC that city is getting at team very soon. The league stands to make alot of money with a team in KC given the share the ownership with have of arena revenues.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by KevinNU7

OMG! What a stupid sentence.

I'm glad that you can add to the discussion with such insight. It may be stupid in your opinion but it is true.

[KevinNU7]

Originally Posted by bsak16

I'm glad that you can add to the discussion with such insight. It may be stupid in your opinion but it is true.

Ok... So if Pittsburgh loses its team to KC then they should never be allowed to have another team right?

Denver "failed" too when a team moved to NJ I guess they shouldn't have gotten the Avalanche.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by KevinNU7

Ok... So if Pittsburgh loses its team to KC then they should never be allowed to have another team right?

Denver "failed" too when a team moved to NJ I guess they shouldn't have gotten the Avalanche.

Minnesota can be added to that list. There are plenty of cities that have lost franchises that should still be considered for teams. Most of the Scouts problems were ownership issues, which became obvious when the team moved to Denver and still failed. The people in charge of the arena and team if that team is brought to KC are a totally different group obviously.