Paris (And Now Mali)(And Now Orlando)

[cuervo72]

Sometimes I just shake my head. Read this in response to the refuge question:

The reason people say that is because they think being christian is all about following some moral code. Being a Christian just means you know you are a sinner in need of a Savior - and you found Jesus!

To which my Aunt gave a big "Amen!!"

What good is finding Jesus if you don't at least make some attempt to follow his principles? Other than a free sinning pass, anyway.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

As long as the rest of the world suffers useful idiots foolishly proclaiming the innocence of Islam other than "extremists" they have a tremendous advantage.

As long as they don't embrace Capitalism, they will never have the advantage.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Really - isn't this where ALL their doctrine comes from? I mean, just because it's juxtaposed with "modern" Islam doesn't mean it's not from the Koran.

In the loosest sense, yes of course. It's about which parts you accentuate and which parts you ignore. Same with the KKK, same with any cult/extremists based on one of the major religions. We had Christians blowing each other up because of slightly different flavours of Christianity not too long ago.

Modern in the context of Islam is not different from modern in the context of Christianity or Judaism. Yeah, their beliefs are based on the Koran/Tanakh/NT, but it's finding ways to basically find a balance between whats in the books and the reality of the 21st century.

[CraigSca]

Ok, great - let's call out Judaism and Christianity so we can all feel better because we're all equal opportunity. So what.

They have territory and they've instituted a caliphate who's sole purpose is to defeat apostasies (basically all of us) and bring about the apocalypse based on their scripture which IS Islam. It is what it is, but let's not whitewash it either.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Every time a Paris incident happens, it inflames tensions both internationally between nations and domestically between Muslims and non-Muslims, and ISIS get exactly what they want, which is more dissatisfied Muslims to groom and recruit across the globe. ISIS want it to be us vs them, and it's working.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

In the loosest sense, yes of course. It's about which parts you accentuate and which parts you ignore. Same with the KKK, same with any cult/extremists based on one of the major religions. We had Christians blowing each other up because of slightly different flavours of Christianity not too long ago.

And how did we get rid of those violently extremist Christian cults? By jailing them, killing them, or letting them kill themselves. Sorry, but turning the other cheek isn't an option when they're exporting terror. (And also fwiw your argument works a lot better with the Al-Qaeda like groups - the Atlantic article shows how much of ISIS's authority is directly tied to controlling at least some territory.)

I do obviously wish there were large Muslim groups leading the charge against them, but I think that A) there's more than we hear about, and B) so much comes down to the Shia vs Sunni divide that people are afraid of criticizing even the extremist groups that are on their side. I mean you even look at ISIS and they're not ordering mass killings of the Christians or Jews in their territory - its primarily Muslims they disagree with they're executing.

I do also obviously think it's long past time to call S.A. to the mat for supporting Wahhabism, especially seeing how hard they're working to export it to much more populous Muslim nations like Indonesia, Nigeria and India. But that idea clearly can't gain traction.

As long as we're going down this road, I also think the main problem isn't "Islam", it's Arab/Bedouin culture. Only about 20% of the world's Muslims live in Arab countries, but nobody cares about the 400 million in India/Indonesia. A society where the powerful men can take dozens of wives and that keeps the unmarried women indoors naturally has a huge angry young man problem - either you have to direct that anger outward or it'll collapse in on the patriarchs of society.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I can't swear the quote is accurate but it's coming from a reporter who works for a state-owned TV outlet so ..

Putin: 'To Forgive The Terrorists Is Up To God, But To Send Them To Him Is Up To Me'

My increasingly astute son made an interesting observation: if they could somehow manage to work together, a Trump-Putin cooperation could be downright Reagan-Thatcher 'esque

[stevew]

I do feel like when it comes time to put boots on the ground, that we'll have a bunch of footwear from different countries this time. If we're going to do this, it's time to actually do it right and eff up a lot of groups in the area/Africa, not just Isis. Now if some of these sketchy groups wanna chip in and help, maybe we could look the other way.

[NobodyHere]

If we have boots on the ground, we better leave our stamp on the middle fuckin east

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

In the loosest sense, yes of course. It's about which parts you accentuate and which parts you ignore. Same with the KKK, same with any cult/extremists based on one of the major religions. We had Christians blowing each other up because of slightly different flavours of Christianity not too long ago.

Modern in the context of Islam is not different from modern in the context of Christianity or Judaism. Yeah, their beliefs are based on the Koran/Tanakh/NT, but it's finding ways to basically find a balance between whats in the books and the reality of the 21st century.

The main difference today is that Islam is the religion that is behind the overwhelming majority of terrorist attacks in the world today. The top 8 terrorist organizations in the world today in terms of death toll on an annual basis use Islam as their guide.

Now that isn't saying that everyone who is a Muslim is evil. It's saying that there is a disproportional amount of terrorism in regards to that religion compared to any other in the world today.

I don't get why it's so taboo to point that out. Why there is such a rush to claim that these attacks have nothing to do with Islam. To claim that these people are not actually Muslim. If these were White Supremacists carrying out the attacks we would absolutely reference that. But for some reason there is this fervor to whitewash these crimes.

[Alf]

Police is currently running an operation on two sites in "Saint Denis" (close to the Stade de France). They supposedly have found 3 people armed with "Kalachnikof". One of them (a women) had an explosive belt which she activated...

3 terrorists killed. Policemen injured too.

[mckerney]

And for the best comment I've seen on Anonymous declaring war on ISIS...

Be ironic if they're beaten by 72 virgins.

[mckerney]

#BREAKING Seven arrests in post-attacks Paris assault: police source

— Agence France-Presse (@AFP) November 18, 2015

2 dead including a woman wearing a suicide vest, arrested include 3 terror suspects, 2 who owned or rented the aparnement the suspected were staying in.

5 police officers suffered minor injuries and a police dog was killed.

EDIT:

The suspects in #SaintDenis raids had planned an attack in the La Defense business district. Follow our live blog→ https://t.co/BeJCDX9UEp

— RFE/RL (@RFERL) November 18, 2015

[Dutch]

Hunting these rats down is going to be tough work.

[Julio Riddols]

I don't think its really an appropriate thought, but a worldwide terrorist hunt in the vein of XCom but with espionage and interrogations added in would make a hell of a video game.

That said, its nice to see French police leveling up their tech tree and taking down some more conspirators preemptively. Now if only they could capture a couple and figure out a way to penetrate to the roots of this organization.. A quick, quiet and clean sweep with as little collateral damage as possible would be amazing.

[Dutch]

I don't know about her math here, but goodness...she draws some damn fine comparisons and hits it out of the park.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I don't know about her math here, but goodness...she draws some damn fine comparisons and hits it out of the park.

The only math I am unsure of is the number killed during the Cultural Revolution in China. The other numbers, I have found elsewhere. She brings up a great point, political correctness and cultural relativism stifle discussion.

The big concern I have with the refugee issue is how do you ensure that these people blend into and assimilate our culture?

[BYU 14]

Wow, that was definitely on point, well done!

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

The only math I am unsure of is the number killed during the Cultural Revolution in China. The other numbers, I have found elsewhere. She brings up a great point, political correctness and cultural relativism stifle discussion.

The big concern I have with the refugee issue is how do you ensure that these people blend into and assimilate our culture?

Agreed. See: Belgium, France.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

The big concern I have with the refugee issue is how do you ensure that these people blend into and assimilate our culture?

The same way the other millions of immigrants have assimilated into our culture since the nation's founding?

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

The same way the other millions of immigrants have assimilated into our culture since the nation's founding?

Right, but I would argue that the issues we have domestically are due in large part to minorities that have not assimilated into our culture.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I don't know about her math here, but goodness...she draws some damn fine comparisons and hits it out of the park.

That was quite possibly the most banal answer to a fairly intelligent question from the Muslim lady - I can't believe no one questioned her 15-25% of Muslims being radical, that is a farcically high number and frankly a ludicrous thing to say.

Secondly she nimbly dodged the main question from the lady which is how exactly military force is going to help the situation rather than escalate it.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Right, but I would argue that the issues we have domestically are due in large part to minorities that have not assimilated into our culture.

Like those fucking Irish and their drunken parades.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

That was quite possibly the most banal answer to a fairly intelligent question from the Muslim lady - I can't believe no one questioned her 15-25% of Muslims being radical, that is a farcically high number and frankly a ludicrous thing to say.

Secondly she nimbly dodged the main question from the lady which is how exactly military force is going to help the situation rather than escalate it.

I'd agree with the 25% being high, I could easily see the 15% number. Military force would be used to bolster the moderate/lax Muslims. Many people fear to speak out against the minority due to fear of reprisals. If they are willing to kill you, but you are not willing to kill them, you are at a major disadvantage and that is what we saw play out in the instances laid out in the answer.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Like those fucking Irish and their drunken parades.

I always tried to figure out why there weren't more redheads in beer commercials. That's a product clearly marketed towards my people.

[JPhillips]

And her whole "the peaceful ones are irrelevant" is exactly the logic of the terrorists. Everyone is responsible, so killing any of them is okay.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

I always tried to figure out why there weren't more redheads in beer commercials. That's a product clearly marketed towards my people.

Brother, I'm right there with ya.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

And her whole "the peaceful ones are irrelevant" is exactly the logic of the terrorists. Everyone is responsible, so killing any of them is okay.

But she didn't advocate killing everyone. She said we have to quit being politically correct and address the problem.

Also, the peaceful ones being irrelevant is not the logic of the terrorists. If they can use them to cow the majority of the populace into a tacit acceptance of their rule, they are relevant. Her point is what is the use of opposing bad people if you are not willing to do so. Her 20th century references are spot on.

To me, the question is what meaningful way can we support the moderate majority into defying the radical minority?

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

To me, the question is what meaningful way can we support the moderate majority into defying the radical minority?

As a first port of call - find out who is buying the Oil from the ISIS owned areas and publish the names and links to them .. that would quickly dissuade them from continuing to do so and cut off a large chunk of the radicals funding ..

(just my tuppence worth)

[tarcone]

There are 1.6 billion people who follow the Islam religion. So if 15% are jihadists or radicals, that is 240,000,000 radical Muslims. That is a staggering amount. And the goal is to kill infidels. ALL infidels.
That pretty much dwarfs the KKK or any radical Christianity sect, I imagine.

But let's welcome them into our country. Sure, what could possibly happen? These 10,000 refugees we are trying to let in, surely they are legit. There can't be any radicals coming in. But wait if 15% are jihadists, that would be 1500 people coming into the country to blow stuff up and kill Americans.

And surely, there aren't any jihadists already in the country. No, that's not possible. Unless they are white supremacists or the KKK.

Give me a break. Set up a place in the Middle East where these refugees can go. What a great job for the UN. Providing security for refugees. And leaving them In their own country.

But no, I'm going to follow the President. No matter what idiotic thing he does or says, because I'm a lemming.

Unbelievable.

And what are the moderate Muslims going to do? Nothing. Then they are called infidels and they start getting blown up. And how do you tell which Muslims are radicals and which are moderates? Do we have a special machine that looks into the hearts and minds of people and can determine who is what?

This is a scary time in our world. And sometimes the few don't get to be the ones that are put first. Sometimes it has to be the many. And this is one of those times.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

As a first port of call - find out who is buying the Oil from the ISIS owned areas and publish the names and links to them .. that would quickly dissuade them from continuing to do so and cut off a large chunk of the radicals funding .. (just my tuppence worth)

Seems as though that might be on Putin's to-do list at some point.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

If they are willing to kill you, but you are not willing to kill them, you are at a major disadvantage

This, this, a fucking billion trillion fucking times THIS.

It's true in a bar fight, it's true on a global scale.

[cuervo72]

Well tarcone, there are approximately 2.77 million Muslims here now. At 15%, that's 405,000 HERE NOW! HOLY MOSES WE ARE DOOMED!

Nah, nobody is following blindly along in this argument.

[cartman]

Do people think that the refugee process is simply people saying they want to come to the US and they are immediately put on a plane and flown straight over and dropped off?

[cuervo72]

Apparently, yes. I was having a further discussion on this with someone, and they referenced feeding and housing refugees for two weeks while we vet them, like we did with Haitians who fled by boat. Not to just let them in. Didn't register that the process for Syrian refugees was typically taking 18-24 months.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Well tarcone, there are approximately 2.77 million Muslims here now. At 15%, that's 405,000 HERE NOW! HOLY MOSES WE ARE DOOMED!

Nah, nobody is following blindly along in this argument.

Which is 405,000 too many ... because of the 2.77 million too many.

It's a war between the west (and virtually everybody else) and Islam. Has been since 9/11.

Failing to acknowledge that is the biggest failure of all.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

As a first port of call - find out who is buying the Oil from the ISIS owned areas and publish the names and links to them .. that would quickly dissuade them from continuing to do so and cut off a large chunk of the radicals funding .. (just my tuppence worth)

In other breaking news, you're completely responsible for me using the word "tuppence" elsewhere a few minutes ago.

[cuervo72]

What are those 405k waiting for exactly? Why have we not heard much out of them? We've had what, one spree that has registered?

I don't doubt that at some point, another radical or radical group will rear its head. Hopefully we sniff them out in time, but we may not. If we don't, why should it be any different than the other sprees we are getting blase about?

These refugees aren't the problem. ISIS is. I hope Russia and France and the UK and the US bomb the shit out of every last ISIS fighter. But the refugees are a red herring - ISIS is using them to push our buttons, and they're doing a great job.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

These refugees aren't the problem.

The benefit -- if any -- is not worth the risk. Not even close.

[tarcone]

I don't think they are waiting. 66 Americans have been killed since 9/11 by radical Muslims. And many attacks have failed or been discovered before they happened.

While that is a small number. It could be worse. Think of the Boston marathon bomb. It was luck only 3 died. But 264 were injured.

But this country is wrapped up in political correctness, we don't see the trees for the forest.

[cartman]

Crazy white guys with guns are a far greater threat to Americans than Islamic terrorists. Or is that not PC to say?

[nol]

Originally Posted by cartman

Do people think that the refugee process is simply people saying they want to come to the US and they are immediately put on a plane and flown straight over and dropped off?

Not at all. They also think that the refugees are given a free Obamaphone.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Not much point to trying to understand the rationale of a medieval group like ISIS, but attacking Russian & French targets was a huge strategic mistake. If they'd stuck to American/British targets you'd probably still have Russia treating them as a useful pawn and running a little bit of interference at the global political level.

And now reports are coming that they've claimed responsibility for murdering a hostage from China (and another from Norway.)

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Well tarcone, there are approximately 2.77 million Muslims here now. At 15%, that's 405,000 HERE NOW! HOLY MOSES WE ARE DOOMED!

Nah, nobody is following blindly along in this argument.

The Nazis didnt kill any Americans in the USA and half our country was of German decent. Perhaps a vast majority of the radicalized Germans were in...Germany?

In Turkey, they boo'ed during a moment of silence for France at a soccer match and started chanting "Allah Akbar". Perhaps its still mostly regional? Do we wait for this surge in anti-westernism to become unwieldly? Do we wait until every last pacifist agrees ISIS is worth taking out? Because you do realize the the last pacifist wants to see millions dead before they would consider action. Its a discussion now between pro-action and reaction. This isn't going to simply slow down and end. Sorry to say it.

[Butter]

So, we are really taking this "15%" number and running with it?

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

So, we are really taking this "15%" number and running with it?

It's only about 30* too high. Granted I did almost no research.

[panerd]

Sam Harris explains this much more eloquently than I do and I think Rainmaker has done a great job in this thread as well but I think people are missing the bigger point when they think worrying about radical Islam is like ripping the C off the Coexist bumper sticker. And I am neither a Christian nor a military apologist. I certainly feel American and French imperialism played a big part in both 9-11 and the Paris attacks. However the simple fact is that their religious doctrine is not tolerant.

We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem - The Daily Beast

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

That was quite possibly the most banal answer to a fairly intelligent question from the Muslim lady - I can't believe no one questioned her 15-25% of Muslims being radical, that is a farcically high number and frankly a ludicrous thing to say.

Secondly she nimbly dodged the main question from the lady which is how exactly military force is going to help the situation rather than escalate it.

We should negotiate with ISIS so they will surrender peacefully.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by panerd

Sam Harris explains this much more eloquently than I do and I think Rainmaker has done a great job in this thread as well but I think people are missing the bigger point when they think worrying about radical Islam is like ripping the C off the Coexist bumper sticker. And I am neither a Christian nor a military apologist. I certainly feel American and French imperialism played a big part in both 9-11 and the Paris attacks. However the simple fact is that their religious doctrine is not tolerant.

We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem - The Daily Beast

Ugh... this is absolutely the wrong way to go about this. Stunningly wrong. To say that ISIS is Islam and parts of the Islamic faith are horrible, but Christians and Jews have gotten past their troublesome passages (asserting that Christian terrorism can be said not to be part of 'their faith') will only anger moderate Muslims. My parents are moderate Muslims - you know what resonates with them? The folks who say ISIS are not Muslims. When you start saying ISIS is really Islam and the moderates need to take it from them, you will get pushback from them, and they will not engage in meaningful dialogue with you, because you are implicitly insulting their entire religion.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

The big concern I have with the refugee issue is how do you ensure that these people blend into and assimilate our culture?

Here's how you assimilate - pay your taxes and follow the law. Not hard.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Ugh... this is absolutely the wrong way to go about this. Stunningly wrong. To say that ISIS is Islam and parts of the Islamic faith are horrible, but Christians and Jews have gotten past their troublesome passages (asserting that Christian terrorism can be said not to be part of 'their faith') will only anger moderate Muslims. My parents are moderate Muslims - you know what resonates with them? The folks who say ISIS are not Muslims. When you start saying ISIS is really Islam and the moderates need to take it from them, you will get pushback from them, and they will not engage in meaningful dialogue with you, because you are implicitly insulting their entire religion.

Did you read the Atlantic article posted earlier in the thread? From reading that I ascertained that ISIS is indeed Muslim. Just more stringent following sharia than today's "modern" Muslim. But, it IS all based on scripture. Your parents, according to them, would be apostates and therefore should be killed.