OOTP Preview Thread (*17-YEAR-LEAGUE UPLOADED 4/16/2K4*)

[SackAttack]

You know what I mean, though. Obviously I'm not suggesting that it's something that can (or SHOULD) be done with two lines of code, but as I mentioned this is going to be the sixth version of the game.

Surely, with six years to noodle on the problem, and something along the lines of what I suggested would at least be a place to start. If what he's having trouble with is quantifying what constitutes a rebuilding effort versus a 'go for it' effort, surely it wouldn't be terribly difficult to ultimately have statistics play a role in it.

Yeah, the team still needs to make sure that the trades it makes will be good ones in the long run (i.e. don't trade for a half-dozen potential superstar third basemen, that's just wasteful), but to not have any distinction between rebuilding and reloading after five full versions and the beta of a sixth seems troubling to me.

[bigdawg2003]

What if the team is under .500, but in first place since the rest of the division is even worse? Standing would have to be in there somewhere.

[SackAttack]

Sure. I'm not saying that the criteria I suggested would be perfect, or that other guidelines couldn't come into play. I just tossed up a couple of areas where such an algorithm could focus.

And again, I'm not saying that it's something that should be added at the last second here - I agree with the others who have posted on the topic who've said "Look, better not to have it at all than to have something that's broken and doesn't work right," but at the same time (and I know I sound like a broken record saying this), this is the sixth version here...

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

I'd much rather have features be done properly and work correctly than be done halfassed just to have them in the game

Of course. Everyone feels that way.

However, you have to start somewhere. And here we are one the eve of version 6(!) and we still haven't seen even a basic attempt at this sort of trade AI. I remember asking for this back in v4, two years ago, and I know I wasn't the first to come up with the idea. How long does it take before we get to be frustrated?

That said, I think it's only fair to point out that as much as I'm disappointed in OOTP dropping the ball here, I can't say I've ever seen a text sim do this well. FOF doesn't. EHM didn't. I never played CM or TPF, but I never heard about them doing it.

Still, it would have been nice to see OOTP be ahead of the crowd. Ah well. Maybe v7.

[MizzouRah]

Skydog,

What about CPU lineups? Do you see fast power hitters batting first in the lineup?

How about pitchers/players ratio, are they all 11/14? I hate that when they have medicore pitching and have to exhaust their bullpens night after night because they need to send a position player down and promote a P so they have 12 to help out the bullpen.

Also, the computer should scour the free agents daily instead of weekly. I hate having to wait a week becuase I feel like I'm cheating by getting someone who was just released. Do you see this?

Thanks,

Todd

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Skydog,

What about CPU lineups? Do you see fast power hitters batting first in the lineup?

How about pitchers/players ratio, are they all 11/14? I hate that when they have medicore pitching and have to exhaust their bullpens night after night because they need to send a position player down and promote a P so they have 12 to help out the bullpen.

Also, the computer should scour the free agents daily instead of weekly. I hate having to wait a week becuase I feel like I'm cheating by getting someone who was just released. Do you see this?

Thanks,

Todd

Todd:

Great questions. Going to check on that stuff right now!

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

You know what I mean, though. Obviously I'm not suggesting that it's something that can (or SHOULD) be done with two lines of code, but as I mentioned this is going to be the sixth version of the game.

Sack, I had the same response. I even came up with an algorithm for FB that took into account how far into the season a team was and how far behind (or ahead) 1st place they were. However, when Markus and I spoke to this he brought up some interesting points (it was a while ago, but I remember a lot of it had to do with the type of team it was - would the Yankees/Red Sox admit defeat and rebuild?). So, eventually it will have to entail a lot of different variables than just the ones I recommended.

Again, this will be in there - hopefully when Markus and I sit down we can come up with a solution that's both elegant and efficient.

-Craig

[Vince]

On top of that, wouldn't it be kind of a pain to program the actual strategy of 'rebuild mode' and 'play for now mode?' I mean, getting the computer to understand what kind of players are good for each strategy would be a pretty daunting task in and of itself.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Vince

On top of that, wouldn't it be kind of a pain to program the actual strategy of 'rebuild mode' and 'play for now mode?' I mean, getting the computer to understand what kind of players are good for each strategy would be a pretty daunting task in and of itself.

It's even hard for us to determine that as well.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Vince

On top of that, wouldn't it be kind of a pain to program the actual strategy of 'rebuild mode' and 'play for now mode?' I mean, getting the computer to understand what kind of players are good for each strategy would be a pretty daunting task in and of itself.

It would depend on how in-depth you wanted to be. I think we all agree that this sort of thing wouldn't be easy. I just would have liked to have seen Markus take a crack at it by now.

Besides, OOTP already has the logic to some extent, since I can set a slider to determine how much emphasis the CPU AI puts on youth vs. veterans. So the OOTP AI is already capable of the basic load up/rebuild logic, it's just not bothering to use it when it should.

Bottom line, a human GM should never be able to make a deadline deal with the first place overall team where the AI gives up it's best players for prospects.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Bottom line, a human GM should never be able to make a deadline deal with the first place overall team where the AI gives up it's best players for prospects.

Why? I think I may have done that, esp. if the said SP is going to be a FA. And are you telling me this has never happened in real life?

[Ben E Lou]

I just picked a random team and checked their starting lineup:

NAME	CON	PWR	EYE	SPD	STL
3B Kent Arvin	65	79	54	37	21
RF Richard Mandujano	58	57	24	50	62
C Jose Torres	63	80	43	13	7
LF Elisa Paiva	63	55	52	52	17
RF Andrew Wilker	51	64	65	50	12
2B Derek Sperry	55	30	28	45	76
SS Arron Neer	59	31	18	66	86
CF Robert Hall	57	16	1	97	82

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Why? I think I may have done that, esp. if the said SP is going to be a FA. And are you telling me this has never happened in real life?

Please, let's not get into the "find an extreme example from real life to justify the poor AI".

If you think that real-life teams don't consider their likelihood if contending when making a deal, then fine. We can agree to disagree and move on.

But if you agree that it's a crucial part part of any trade analysis, then it should be reflected in OOTP somehow.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I just picked a random team and checked their starting lineup:

Yikes! No speed at the top, your best pwr hitter 3rd (although one could argue - ie Pujlos/Edmonds. I'll analize more when my 2yr old gets to sleep.

Thanks,

Todd

[Ben E Lou]

In answer to Todd's 2nd question, I have stopped the current sim on May 8th, so we're into the season. All teams have 11 pitchers, 14 batters.

Final question: Waiver claims are happening every day. FA signings are happening on Mondays only. Trades can happen on any day, it would appear.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Sack, I had the same response. I even came up with an algorithm for FB that took into account how far into the season a team was and how far behind (or ahead) 1st place they were. However, when Markus and I spoke to this he brought up some interesting points (it was a while ago, but I remember a lot of it had to do with the type of team it was - would the Yankees/Red Sox admit defeat and rebuild?). So, eventually it will have to entail a lot of different variables than just the ones I recommended.

Again, this will be in there - hopefully when Markus and I sit down we can come up with a solution that's both elegant and efficient.

-Craig

I can accept that, but there's two things I feel like I ought to point out.

1) Everybody has to go through a rebuilding effort of some kind. The Yankees and Red Sox are just wealthy enough that they can rebuild through free agency, as opposed to rebuilding the farm system.

2) Market size is already in the game, why not make that part of the equation? Teams with large market sizes, like New York or Boston, would probably reload rather than rebuild. Teams in small markets, like Oakland, would be more likely to rebuild. There has to be a balance, of course, but here are the factors I think should go into the algorithm, ultimately:

1) Market size
2) Average team age
3) Winning percentage
3a) Games out of first (as someone pointed out, a team in a weak division might be 5 games under, but only 1 game out of the playoffs).
4) Payroll level (i.e. a team at a sustainable payroll level might be more willing to write it off as a bad year if the overall talent level is good)
4a) Pending free agents' expected salaries with regards to the sustainable payroll

That's all directly quantifiable, with the exception perhaps of 4a, from information already in the game. It's just a matter of getting the game to read it and interpret it in a consistent manner, IMO.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Yikes! No speed at the top, your best pwr hitter 3rd (although one could argue - ie Pujlos/Edmonds. I'll analize more when my 2yr old gets to sleep.

Thanks,

Todd

I dunno. I'm a big proponent of high OBP at the top, and the guy batting leadoff has the highest CON+EYE in the entire lineup. In a lineup that has pretty solid hitting & power in the 2-5 slots, I'd say you can afford to "give up" the RBI's of Arvin in return for having him on base more in front of four straight good hitters.

[HighandOutside]

It appears that they do have their best OBP-guy batting first, however.

[Buccaneer]

and then there are gamers like me who always put the 3rd-best OPS guy batting 8th (which I call the 'second cleanup' spot). I agree, I put my best OBP guy at 1st or 2nd spot, depending on speed. Best OPS batting 3rd and best SLG batting 4th.

[Ben E Lou]

Another team....

NAME	CON	PWR	EYE	SPD	STL
SS Marcus Dawson	51	33	51	88	80
C Ramon Durso	68	37	70	18	26
CF Donald Pinard	69	76	85	17	11
RF Willie Bell	60	57	50	80	65
1B Donny Lowry	66	67	100	22	18
2B Celestino Moreno	72	61	44	28	22
RF Lawrence Dechant	44	68	35	56	34
3B John Switzer	73	19	24	40	15

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

and then there are gamers like me who always put the 3rd-best OPS guy batting 8th (which I call the 'second cleanup' spot). I agree, I put my best OBP guy at 1st or 2nd spot, depending on speed. Best OPS batting 3rd and best SLG batting 4th.

BUC JUST ADMITTED THAT HE SETS HIS OWN LINEUPS!!!!!

You micromanager. GM's don't set lineups!!!

[Ben E Lou]

Craig/Other Beta Guys:

Are y'all finding that this version is significantly slower than past versions?

For those reading, don't be alarmed, we're not talking anything NEAR PureSim slow; I can sim through a month in a reasonable amount of time. However, it is slow enough that I can no longer get 30 seasons simmed overnight, which, if I recall, I was able to do with OOTP5. Last night, I was simming at an average of 30 minutes per season with a P4/2.4GHz/512MB machine. I can think of several reasons that this might be the case:

1. new engine
2. Teams are checking waiver wire every day.
3. Player development is happening every day as opposed to just once per week.

There could be other reasons, but these are things that I *know* have changed since OOTP5 and would have to slow things down some. As I said, it is nowhere near prohibitively slow for me, but slow enough to make the 100-year test league a project that will tie up your CPU for more than two days.

[Buccaneer]

That's not micromanaging, Ben, it's making sure I field the best 8 or 11 or 5 (OOTP, FOF MP, FBCB) players I can. That's in the GM's job description. How they perform it's up to the coach. Besides, in any of these games, do you trust the AI to do this right?? Besides, hasn't it come out that I spend more time gameplanning in IHOF than most?

[MizzouRah]

Bummer on all 3 questions (thanks btw). I'm not sure I should have re-ordered the game.

I put speed at the top unless he's a really bad hitter. I understand your reasoning as well, but I would have:

CF Robert Hall

57

16

1

97

82

at the top of the lineup to start the season, just on pure speed and stl ability alone. (I'd take the chance)

I guess what I'm saying is, all teams in ootp5 seem to fit the same style as far as how their managed (and I know you can change that manually), but I want a manager who has his own way to run the team, but also takes his teams' strenghts and weaknesses into consideration. Whoa... I'm getting a little off base here, but I seem to scratch my head when I see Cliff Floyd batting first for Chicago, OR a guy who's has terrible ratings, but is hitting .325 with 25hrs batting 8th, etc..

Since I manage all my games, I'm also wondering how different the pbp is, as well as actually managing the game? (I know SD, you're a simmer )


Todd

[Ben E Lou]

Todd:

But check out the second team I posted, they've got a burner batting leadoff, the way you like it. I'll tell you this, though. There is no *way* that CF Robert Hall bats higher than 7th on my team with a "1" in Eye rating. Just to check things, I stopped the sim a little over half-way through the season (87 games). Hall is batting .303 with 18 SB, but only has a .336 OBP. Interestingly enough, as the season has progressed, Wilker's contact is up to 53, and he's now in the leadoff slot, with a .362 OBP.

SB's are over-rated, imho.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Craig/Other Beta Guys:
Are y'all finding that this version is significantly slower than past versions?

I find it to be a hair slower. And by a hair, I really mean just a barely discernable bit slower.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Bummer on all 3 questions (thanks btw). I'm not sure I should have re-ordered the game.

I put speed at the top unless he's a really bad hitter. I understand your reasoning as well, but I would have:


at the top of the Todd

No offense Todd, but you are way off on this and to say that you have doubts about pre-ordering because the AI doesn't do something as stupid as putting a Eye=1 batter (this out of 100 remember) at leadoff??? He can't steal if he can't even get close to first base! You are a great OOTP proponent here at FOFC but I think you are letting your emotions getting the better of you.
Respectfully,
Steve

[tucker342]

Great stuff so far Ben!

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

I find it to be a hair slower. And by a hair, I really mean just a barely discernable bit slower.

I've changed some settings on my laptop, and can't remember how to do some things. How do I turn disable the XP antivirus stuff? I know that is supposed to speed things up in previous versions...

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

That's not micromanaging, Ben, it's making sure I field the best 8 or 11 or 5 (OOTP, FOF MP, FBCB) players I can. That's in the GM's job description. How they perform it's up to the coach. Besides, in any of these games, do you trust the AI to do this right?? Besides, hasn't it come out that I spend more time gameplanning in IHOF than most?

I'm just giving you a hard time.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I've changed some settings on my laptop, and can't remember how to do some things. How do I turn disable the XP antivirus stuff? I know that is supposed to speed things up in previous versions...

well, the simple answer is to find them in your lower right taskbar, right click them and close them. Antivirus is indeed a big hog.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Craig/Other Beta Guys:

Are y'all finding that this version is significantly slower than past versions?

Hard to say - I'm running a 1.8 GHz machine with 256MB RAM, Windows 2000 and I've never been able to get the game to sim more than 8-9 seasons a night. Other beta testers were able to get 30+ seasons done a night.

I was never a big simmer with OOTP5, so I really have nothing to compare it to, unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Mizzourah

a guy who's has terrible ratings, but is hitting .325 with 25hrs batting 8th, etc..

Remember, the AI takes performance into account now - this should happen much less frequently than in the past.

Also, from a personal standpoint regarding lineup creation: The algorithm I used in FB picked #3 and #4 first...then picked the highest OBP guy to bat 1st (with a bumpup for speed). I agree that most teams put their base stealer 1st, even if the guy can't draw a walk (Tony Womack, John Cangelosi) - but "new school" GMs and managers are seeing the value in putting a priority on OBP.

-Craig

[Buccaneer]

It's mutual, Ben.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

well, the simple answer is to find them in your lower right taskbar, right click them and close them. Antivirus is indeed a big hog.

Right, I know how to do that. Isn't there resident antivirus stuff in XP apart from my antivirus software that can be disabled though?

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I've changed some settings on my laptop, and can't remember how to do some things. How do I turn disable the XP antivirus stuff? I know that is supposed to speed things up in previous versions...

Ah, that may be the reason I'm slower than others as well - funny, I never thought of that.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Right, I know how to do that. Isn't there resident antivirus stuff in XP apart from my antivirus software that can be disabled though?

there is no XP antivirus. there is an XP firewall, but I doubt that's slowing you down enough to bother with (it's also turned off by default)

there's a good site www.blackviper.com with info on all the different Windows processes that you can shut off for better performance, but, unless you are a geek, I don't recommend this (and the performance boost is probably not even going to be that noticeable).

[HighandOutside]

I'm thinking of buying this game for the first time (I currently play DMB). I love micromanaging, so I'm definitely interested in the in-game AI. Is this something you will be checking out Sky.?? (e.g. proper use of relief pitchers etc..) Thank you very much for you fantastic updates thus far..

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

No offense Todd, but you are way off on this and to say that you have doubts about pre-ordering because the AI doesn't do something as stupid as putting a Eye=1 batter (this out of 100 remember) at leadoff??? He can't steal if he can't even get close to first base! You are a great OOTP proponent here at FOFC but I think you are letting your emotions getting the better of you.
Respectfully,
Steve

No offense taken.

I forgot about the 1-100 ratings , but how could a guy that fast with 57 contact have an eye rating of 1?

Maybe wanting my money back is going a tad far, I just don't see or hear anything that is making want to quit my ootp5 solo career and upgrate to v6. It's early though, and I don't even have the game.


Todd

[Ragone]

I got a question.. Do you still have manager mode in ootp6? get married.. have kids who you can draft and such?

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by Ragone

I got a question.. Do you still have manager mode in ootp6? get married.. have kids who you can draft and such?

still there.
still not something I'll ever use.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

No offense taken.

I forgot about the 1-100 ratings , but how could a guy that fast with 57 contact have an eye rating of 1?

I don't understand - basically he's an average hitter, but he's also a big free-swinger. There are plenty of guys who fit this mold - wasn't Vince Coleman a guy who would hit about .260 every year and only rarely walk?


-Craig

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I don't understand - basically he's an average hitter, but he's also a big free-swinger. There are plenty of guys who fit this mold - wasn't Vince Coleman a guy who would hit about .260 every year and only rarely walk?


-Craig

I was thinking Deon Sanders. Vince Coleman is a good one, but he stole like 100+ bases a year and was leadoff. My point, he would be my leadoff.

I see what you are saying though. When he makes contact, he has a good chance of getting on, but he k's a tad much.

I really just wanted to know if Cliff Floyd prototypes are still batting leadoff. Too many times in ootp5, batting lineups make me scratch my head as well as the 11/14 problem.


Todd

[FBPro]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I don't understand - basically he's an average hitter, but he's also a big free-swinger. There are plenty of guys who fit this mold - wasn't Vince Coleman a guy who would hit about .260 every year and only rarely walk?


-Craig

Exactly, the "free swinging, slap" type hitter. Won't hit for power but also won't draw a walk either.

[RPI-Fan]

but how could a guy that fast with 57 contact have an eye rating of 1?

Huh?!?!!? What are you talking about? Most of the OOTP-related stuff you post has been insightful and on-base (pun intended). But this lineup thing you're whining about it just junk. There's nothing wrong with the AI's lineup decision, at all.

Plenty of reasons have been given why this decision is MORE than defensible - I really don't know why you're throwing such a fit about this.

I'm sure there are problems with the AI that actually need attention - we should be worrying about those, and not things that are already looking Ok (based on those couple of examples SD graciously posted).

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

Consider, however, all of the online leagues. Of course it should be toggleable, but if it doesn't make it in, dan, you get to run the next JBL draft and get to have fun changing around all those draft orders manually. Lucky you dan!!

For leagues that implemented it *cough* (JBL, LABL) it would be nice. But as you will notice I will rarely if ever trade around my draft picks.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Vince

On top of that, wouldn't it be kind of a pain to program the actual strategy of 'rebuild mode' and 'play for now mode?' I mean, getting the computer to understand what kind of players are good for each strategy would be a pretty daunting task in and of itself.

Someone could always just ask Schmidty how he rebuilds...

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

there is no XP antivirus. there is an XP firewall, but I doubt that's slowing you down enough to bother with (it's also turned off by default)

there's a good site www.blackviper.com with info on all the different Windows processes that you can shut off for better performance, but, unless you are a geek, I don't recommend this (and the performance boost is probably not even going to be that noticeable).

Also remember the speed of your hard drive will affect the speed of simming because the game writes so many files to your hard drive. So if you only have a 5400RPM drive it could be noticeably slower.

Gah three posts in a row that's what I get for catching up...

[kingnebwsu]

Triple kill!...er post

The lineup thing is interesting. In the second lineup, there's no way I would bat that dude cleanup. But that's just me.

Hey, how about playoff results? I'd like to see the number of wins the WS champions have and how the teams with the best records do (lose in first round, LCS, or WS). Any post on this would be fantastic

[ISiddiqui]

I want a manager who has his own way to run the team

Well it seems than the managers of the two teams SD has posted have two different ideas on how to run the team, at least on the lineup level.

[21C]

Sim speed can also be improved significantly by disabling the 'Sim Minors' option.