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View Poll Results: How is Obama doing? (poll started 6/6) | |||
Great - above my expectations | 18 | 6.87% | |
Good - met most of my expectations | 66 | 25.19% | |
Average - so so, disappointed a little | 64 | 24.43% | |
Bad - sold us out | 101 | 38.55% | |
Trout - don't know yet | 13 | 4.96% | |
Voters: 262. You may not vote on this poll |
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12-09-2014, 04:04 PM | #24501 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2013
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I also love the fact that the CIA can spy on US Senate members with impunity,
Thanks Obama!
__________________
"I am God's prophet, and I need an attorney" |
12-09-2014, 05:46 PM | #24502 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Quote:
And lie to Congress with impunity!
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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12-09-2014, 07:48 PM | #24503 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
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I've read a couple news blurbs on the report but did not see anything regarding when the "enhanced interrogations" stopped?
Does not put the CIA in a good light. Last edited by Edward64 : 12-09-2014 at 07:48 PM. |
12-09-2014, 09:20 PM | #24504 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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Has the CIA ever been in a good light?
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12-10-2014, 07:47 AM | #24505 | |
Retired
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fantasyland
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Quote:
Where did you see this reported? I'm not disputing that perhaps it's real, but the CIA has no domestic charter and as a result activities in the US are supposed to be a no-no. We had to leave that kind of crap up to the NSA and FBI when I was there. |
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12-10-2014, 07:55 AM | #24506 | ||
High School Varsity
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Lynchburg, VA
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Quote:
Feinstein says CIA spied on Senate computers Quote:
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12-11-2014, 08:00 AM | #24507 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicagoland
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Quote:
Arguably immediate extrajudicial killing would have been considerably more humane, especially if done via normal execution means as opposed to, say, a drone strike (i.e. no chance of unintended collateral damage). |
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12-11-2014, 08:11 PM | #24508 |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
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Hmmmm...we could pull all our guys out of Quantanamo and return it to a bombing range. I'm even good with drones doing their thing although B-52's would make it more fun to watch on NPR.
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12-11-2014, 09:24 PM | #24509 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: the yo'
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Quote:
Yeah, put me in this camp if we had legitimate reasons to execute them(I'm guessing that in most cases yes) |
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12-12-2014, 01:01 AM | #24510 | |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
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Quote:
Well, good news, we have legitimate reasons to execute them. I'm all for getting it over with....we can even have the next President apologize for it. Winning all the way around. |
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12-12-2014, 07:23 AM | #24511 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicagoland
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Eh, we're conflating two different things (thanks Dutch!).
The torture wasn't done as any part of a quasi-judicial process. It was done, ostensibly, to get information. Only torture doesn't work to get information. On this topic I am still of the mind (as I have posted numerous times over the past 10 years) that other methods, like those the FBI used on some of the detainees, that produced actual actionable intel, should have been used instead. On the judicial side, I still think we should have (still should) bring them into the court system if possible. I don't find the arguments that they would win acquittal convincing, especially for high value targets (like KSM). Where it gets murky is the use of drones (or otherwise) to essentially murder targets without any due process. This is due, mainly, to the murkiness of what constitutes a "battlefield" these days, and I think that's still a concept we're going to need to work through as a society. |
12-12-2014, 10:24 AM | #24512 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Mountains
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Quote:
If we apply domestic criminal law to them they'd all have to be released immediately and no charges could ever be brought. If we made exceptions there, then they'd just be phony show proceedings. Especially when everybody would know that there's certain guys that aren't going anywhere regardless of the outcome in court. Acquittal on the merits isn't the only thing that precludes convictions. Violations of constitutional rights can as well. Edit: And of course at this point we HAVE released most prisoners - the ones still there are the ones we're most worried about, and they're un-prosecutable at this point because of the torture alone, let alone speedy trial and admissible evidence issues. Last edited by molson : 12-12-2014 at 10:27 AM. |
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12-12-2014, 10:42 AM | #24513 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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I think there's a way to create some sort of military tribunal process that at least provides some definitive outcome to these cases. I'm somewhat flexible on the process, as long as there is a process.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
12-12-2014, 10:59 AM | #24514 | |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
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Quote:
I am completely against torture, but I do want our Intel teams to get answers...whatever works best and if the FBI has the ethical and best method they need to share that. I will dumb down the "battlefield" argument. The USA hasn't declared war in 75 years, but we still get the terms...Vietnam War, Korean War, Iraq War, Afghanistan War. I get the legalese, but if we are comfortable and fairly unified in calling it a war, we need to be equal comfortable calling them battlefields. Unfortunately, I have no idea how that logic translates in the courts. Perhaps a similar situation: I do know the courts are fairly agile in calling something a hate crime even if the defendant hasn't admitted to being a racist or even admitting racist tendencies. |
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12-12-2014, 11:01 AM | #24515 | |
Death Herald
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas
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Quote:
They are also pretty agile in calling something a murder, even if the defendant hasn't admitted to a murder or killing someone.
__________________
Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint |
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12-12-2014, 11:22 AM | #24516 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicagoland
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12-12-2014, 11:41 AM | #24517 |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Mountains
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The official line is that most of the evidence against them was obtained through torture, and because public trials would involve an unacceptable volume of classified material. A judge could also dismiss the charges based on any number of constitutional violations - speedy trial, inhumane pretrial conditions, lack of meaningful access to the courts and habeas corpus relief. It's not a legitimate prosecution strategy to imprison and torture someone for 15-20 years before you initiate trial proceedings. That permanently hampers your chance to build any kind of meaningful defense. You'd have to go back a long time to find examples of that kind of thing in U.S. criminal law, but it wouldn't fly today. |
12-12-2014, 12:08 PM | #24518 |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: SF
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Funny how everyone blames the Congress for being too partisan and not doing anything, then when a bill is passed, filled with lots compromise, each side yells sell out and weakness
Last edited by AENeuman : 12-12-2014 at 12:09 PM. |
12-12-2014, 12:10 PM | #24519 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicagoland
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Sorry, I should have clarified. I meant that I still believe we should have brought folks like KSM to trial much earlier, and in similar circumstances should attempt to do the same with people who do these things today.
I buy the argument that someone like KSM might get out of trial in a large part because of the torture. I don't buy the argument that you can't try these guys in court due to national security / classified material. Because we have done so. |
12-13-2014, 01:35 PM | #24520 | |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
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Quote:
Maybe I lost something in translation, but I feel like you are supporting my analogy and agreeing with me by presenting a similar analogy. We might have to make a note of this, if I'm reading you right. |
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12-13-2014, 11:46 PM | #24521 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Decatur, GA
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Quote:
Ah, American politics. No one is ever happy.
__________________
"A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams |
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12-14-2014, 11:05 AM | #24522 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Cheney is now completely morally bankrupt.
Quote:
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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12-14-2014, 11:21 AM | #24523 |
Retired
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fantasyland
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12-14-2014, 11:25 AM | #24524 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Yeah, but at least he had the decency to lie about torture before. Now he's proud of torturing and killing innocents.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
12-14-2014, 12:01 PM | #24525 | |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
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Quote:
That's one way to spin it. He may be very defensive, but he's also very proud of the accomplishments after 9/11 in getting the bad guys. The assumption that anybody is perfect in war is the morally bankrupt argument. |
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12-14-2014, 01:13 PM | #24526 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Quote:
He's expressed zero regret for torturing and killing innocents. This isn't about perfection, this is about a guy that has stated that killing innocents doesn't bother him. If that isn't morally bankrupt, I don't know what is.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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12-14-2014, 01:22 PM | #24527 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
He actually doesn't believe it was torture. He's on the record as saying (paraphrasing mine) "we were very careful to stop short of torture." Last edited by DaddyTorgo : 12-14-2014 at 01:22 PM. |
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12-14-2014, 01:24 PM | #24528 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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That's the company line so they don't get prosecuted for war crimes. They don't deny that the techniques listed in the Senate report happened. Anal feedings, waterboarding, etc. are internationally defined as torture regardless of what Cheney says.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
12-14-2014, 01:33 PM | #24529 |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
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You want him prosecuted for war crimes but not terrorists? Your partisan efforts are laughable dude, sorry.
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12-14-2014, 01:35 PM | #24530 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
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Quote:
Whose or which culture's or which authority are you basing morality on? Does such morality changes depending upon the circumstances or the person in question? What would be criteria for being morally bankrupt as oppose to partially bankrupt? I believe it is so easy to point fingers at those with obvious hardened hears (such Cheney) but it is less easy to point fingers at yourself or others that are not so obvious. |
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12-14-2014, 01:36 PM | #24531 | |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
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Quote:
He only holds old white Republicans with much regard...everybody else apparently doesn't know better. So they are exempt. |
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12-14-2014, 01:39 PM | #24532 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Quote:
Actually I've said I'm fine with military tribunals for suspected terrorists, but keep fucking that chicken!
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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12-14-2014, 01:41 PM | #24533 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Quote:
I'd agree with that, but I don't think the answer is excusing all abhorrent behavior. There are things that should be called as out of bounds for a decent human or a decent government.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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12-14-2014, 01:47 PM | #24534 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
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Quote:
I agree but you're talking about laws and ethics which all citizens of a country should be bound to. The minute you and others start throwing out the word morality (in terms of a person), you are talking about something different altogether - not to mention that there is no such thing as a nation's morality (which seems to be a common phrase recently). |
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12-14-2014, 01:49 PM | #24535 | |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
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Quote:
Well, harp on that a little more than all the other bullshit you harp on. Your reality is apparently not connected with your post counts suggesting otherwise. |
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12-14-2014, 01:52 PM | #24536 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Quote:
I don't have the same issues with the word as you, but I'm fine changing it to abhorrent if that works better. My original point was that Cheney is completely out of bounds for a decent society. I have no problem defending that position.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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12-14-2014, 01:53 PM | #24537 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Quote:
Let's see the times when I've said terrorists shouldn't be prosecuted. If I've said it a lot it shouldn't be hard for you to find.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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12-14-2014, 02:06 PM | #24538 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
Oh I realize that. I'm just pointing out that his shittyness is even moreso than your comment. |
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12-14-2014, 02:09 PM | #24539 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
In this case, I'd go with the Geneva convention. |
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12-14-2014, 02:42 PM | #24540 |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
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12-14-2014, 02:47 PM | #24541 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Yeah, there's plenty of Dems, including Obama that are culpable to some degree.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
12-14-2014, 02:51 PM | #24542 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
And they should all face trial before the ICC too. Along with Bush, Cheney, etc. |
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12-14-2014, 02:55 PM | #24543 |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
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The reality is that we've known she knew what Cheney knew for a long time and yet, nobody on the left really cared because she's on your team...and the discussion on TV all week was about burning Republicans at the stake, not Democrats. It's all a partisan farce if you ask me.
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12-14-2014, 03:21 PM | #24544 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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There is a substantive difference between knowing and ordering.
But my concern is that this never happens again, so I'm fine with whatever accomplishes that.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
12-14-2014, 03:29 PM | #24545 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
While I agree with you, to the extent that they voted to fund the agencies/programs that undertook it instead of voting against them or inserting specific riders prohibiting it (symbolic as it may have been since the money would no doubt be found elsewhere in those agencies budgets) IMHO makes them at least somewhat culpable. Not as much as those who ordered/developed it, but they didn't do anything from their positions of power to even symbolically oppose it. |
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12-14-2014, 03:33 PM | #24546 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Look above. I said they were culpable.
But the reason this week has been about Cheney et al. is because those were the architects of the program. They created and justified the program, so of course the coverage is about them.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
12-14-2014, 03:34 PM | #24547 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
I think the release of the report has spurred things obviously. And you're not seeing Pelosi et. al. coming out to defend it, so they're not making themselves natural targets. Plus like you said, architects vs. enablers. Both culpable, but one moreso than the other. |
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12-14-2014, 03:39 PM | #24548 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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I wish the country would unite and shame all of those that created or okayed the torture programs. It's a huge stain on our honor that we will all move on with no one facing any consequences.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
12-14-2014, 03:51 PM | #24549 |
Retired
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fantasyland
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12-14-2014, 04:40 PM | #24550 |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
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