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View Poll Results: How is Obama doing? (poll started 6/6) | |||
Great - above my expectations | 18 | 6.87% | |
Good - met most of my expectations | 66 | 25.19% | |
Average - so so, disappointed a little | 64 | 24.43% | |
Bad - sold us out | 101 | 38.55% | |
Trout - don't know yet | 13 | 4.96% | |
Voters: 262. You may not vote on this poll |
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Thread Tools |
10-16-2014, 12:47 PM | #24251 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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I think it was Ohio that also made it illegal for poll workers to tell people they were in the wrong precinct or to tell them where the correct precinct was located.
I'm sure it's just a coincidence that Voter ID often pairs with other laws limiting voter access.
__________________
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10-16-2014, 12:48 PM | #24252 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicagoland
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Quote:
I agree, but I've had some surprising experiences, as well. For instance, the year after we moved to Maine I needed to get a bunch of documents from the sale of our house in Illinois for our taxes, not all of which I got paper copies of, for some reasons. Anyway, they all turned out to be easy to a) find and b) download digital copies of from the Secretary of State's office. I was impressed. |
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10-16-2014, 12:59 PM | #24253 | |
Retired
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fantasyland
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Quote:
Considering the documentation required, it's not that easy. Now compound that with a populace that physically has trouble getting around with a lack of public transportation and, well...you tell me. And we haven't even gotten to students, who can vote in either their home state or their school state - tell me what picture ID they have that's acceptable since school IDs AREN'T ACCEPTABLE. Are these things "insurmountable"? No. But is the barrier to voting now acceptable at not being "insurmountable" and merely "costly and fucking inconvenient" to literally millions of people across the country? Is that acceptable? Mind you, the FL GOP Chairman said (and I quote), "The Republican Party, the strategists, the consultants, they firmly believe that early voting is bad for Republican Party candidates. We’ve got to cut down on early voting because early voting is not good for us." He later said in a deposition that “I was upset because the political consultants and staff were talking about voter suppression and keeping blacks from voting." Nah, nothing racist to see here folks! But the racism is really a red herring here. It shows how depraved these proponents are, but we're really talking about a maximum fraud percentage of 0.000263157% (5/1,900,000) in SC or something like .0004% in Ohio on a different study. These aren't convictions, these are possible instances of fraud. Now justify possibly disenfranchising tens or hundreds of thousands of people in order to combat that maximum fraud rate. That's the challenge for any proponent. Justify it. Last edited by Blackadar : 10-16-2014 at 01:05 PM. |
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10-16-2014, 12:59 PM | #24254 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Quote:
if voter ID is such a great way to prevent fraud you'd think it would be accompanied by ways to make it easier to vote rather than the elimination of early voting, restrictions on absentee ballots and calls to end same day registration that usually go along with it. |
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10-16-2014, 01:06 PM | #24255 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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10-16-2014, 01:30 PM | #24256 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
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I can't remember the last time having to go to a polling place, let alone show an id. It's all been ballots by mail including 2012.
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10-16-2014, 01:32 PM | #24257 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Colorado Springs
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Quote:
Which is why I would pair this with making it less restrictive and less expensive (preferably free) to acquire some form of photo ID. If the inconvenience is paired down to "oh shit, I gotta spend 30-60 minutes at the DMV or whatever to get some form of photo ID", then I consider that a reasonable requirement for validating eligible voters. If you can't be bothered to spend a few minutes getting a zero cost ID with a minimum of hassle, then you've got not business voting in the first place. (Yes, I do realize trying to remove red tape and bullshit fees from any gov't entity is a pipe dream at best. But this is all theoretical in the first place.) |
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10-16-2014, 01:58 PM | #24258 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
And that's fine - I'm actually okay with that. But the thing is I'm only okay with that if we make it less restrictive and free (it has to be free) to acquire the form of photo ID valid for voting AT LEAST 12 months in advance of the election - preferably more, or with some sort of phased-in transition so that you give people who have issues (missing documents, health issues, whatever) a legitimate opportunity to acquire the ID. Otherwise that's just a gussied-up way of trying to make yourself feel better about disenfranchising people. Last edited by DaddyTorgo : 10-16-2014 at 01:59 PM. |
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10-16-2014, 02:13 PM | #24259 |
Solecismic Software
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Canton, OH
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I think the fraud issue is important.
United States Senate election in Minnesota, 2008 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Washington gubernatorial election, 2004 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia So Republicans are very sensitive to this issue. A few hundred votes sometimes makes the difference. Just because they're unpopular Republicans doesn't make their concerns illegitimate. The long lines and difficult-to-obtain ID issues are also important. Both sides need to see the problems here. |
10-16-2014, 02:32 PM | #24260 | ||
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicagoland
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Quote:
In the end, 6 people were charged. In the end, 5 people voted illegally, of which 4 voted for the Republican and 1 for the Independent (and none for the Democrat, who won the vote). Quote:
No, it's the facts that make their concerns illegitimate. Edit: it should be noted that in both cases the accusations of voter fraud started with the GOP claiming thousands of fraudulent votes in elections decided by hundreds of votes. Editorially, neither situation strikes me as an attempt to combat voter fraud, both situations strike me as an attempt to win an election in the courts as opposed to the ballot box. Last edited by flere-imsaho : 10-16-2014 at 02:34 PM. |
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10-16-2014, 02:57 PM | #24261 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Cary, NC
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You're talking people charged, yet we've already had the example of 800 dead voters voting in one election. One person can be responsible for large numbers of fraudulent votes.
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10-16-2014, 03:01 PM | #24262 | |
Death Herald
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas
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Quote:
Where is the example of that? If it was the South Carolina one brought up earlier, that was debunked.
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Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint |
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10-16-2014, 03:03 PM | #24263 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
If they keep repeating the same bullshit lies over and over they figure we'll get tired of refuting them and it'll stand as truth to people who don't follow the whole conversation. Common RWNJ technique. To be fair it's probably a common debating technique as a whole, but I don't see any others utilizing it so frequently. |
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10-16-2014, 03:10 PM | #24264 |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Mountains
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Maybe we should do more to help poor people get IDs because they're important in many aspects of life beyond just voting, and to not just care about this every election season as a tool to gain political power and to label political opponents as racist. (as fun and as effective as that strategy can be).
Last edited by molson : 10-16-2014 at 03:20 PM. |
10-16-2014, 03:15 PM | #24265 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Quote:
That's just it. There are, in theory, ways that I could be supportive of voter ID, but the way it's executed in conjunction with limiting voting hours and putting restrictions on registration show the real intent of most of these laws.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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10-16-2014, 03:17 PM | #24266 | ||
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Backwoods, SC
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Quote:
You chose to not mke sure you kept up with it. Again personal responsibility will go a long way in this conversation. Quote:
Please man. Your act is tired. I did not say people who dont own property should not vote. I never mentioned women or minorities, or economic levels. So at least you switched from Red Herrings to Strawmen. And there it is. When all else fails in an argument Blackadar breaks out his favorite word, Bigot. Here are some stats for you. A quick search for the word bigot revelas that 16 of the last 50 uses here on FOC were by Blackadar. A further search reveals 23 of the remaining 34 were in a direct response to an accusation of bigot FROM blackadar. Congrats you own the Bigot title. I wont even bother with a response as it just makes it perfectly clear you dont know me or my family . |
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10-16-2014, 03:18 PM | #24267 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Quote:
That's cause CO tried to make voting easier. Kudos to CO!!!
__________________
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10-16-2014, 03:19 PM | #24268 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Backwoods, SC
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And while we are on the subject.
I am a registered Democrat. I am pro choice. I am pro gay marriage. I am anti gun restricting laws. I am however a fiscal conservative. I am anti the entire current administration. Call me what you will. |
10-16-2014, 03:23 PM | #24269 | ||
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
Oh really?? Quote:
So that's not what you're arguing here on the last page, at 11:22 today? Last edited by DaddyTorgo : 10-16-2014 at 03:24 PM. |
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10-16-2014, 03:30 PM | #24270 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Backwoods, SC
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Quote:
Reading comprehension much? I said if you didnt own property OR you didnt have an income. There was A CONVERSATION to be had. Never mentioned a minority, never mentioned a gender... welfare programs do count as earned income. My point was, and admitedly I could have fleshed it out better, if you have nowhere to live, own NOTHING and have no money coming in in any form it is a reasonabe possibility that your views are not indiative of society as a whole. |
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10-16-2014, 03:36 PM | #24271 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
So 50%? Got it. Your views are still indicative of society as a whole because you're a member of that society. Your PRIORITIES are quite likely different, but your views still matter. Last edited by DaddyTorgo : 10-16-2014 at 03:37 PM. |
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10-16-2014, 05:44 PM | #24272 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Backwoods, SC
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Quote:
50%? What? How hard is this to understand I said I think there is a conversation to be had that if you cant check at least one of a few boxes you...ahhh forget it carry on without me. I dont need to prove my opinion to anyone here nor do I care to and frankly the likely hood of me ever encountering the vast majority of you in my life is slim to none so I really am wasting my time having a debate with you on this. Especially when we insist on disingenuous tacticts. |
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10-16-2014, 06:12 PM | #24273 |
Solecismic Software
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Canton, OH
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What constitutes a poll tax? Obviously, charging anything to enter the polling place is a poll tax. Would a fee for an ID qualify? What about gas costs or bus fare to reach the polling place? I just filled out my absentee ballot, and it requires 70 cents in postage (a bargain over driving - my polling place is 25 minutes from home). Is that a poll tax?
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10-16-2014, 06:59 PM | #24274 | ||
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicagoland
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Quote:
Yes, it would be great if there was an organization that did just that. Quote:
I WILL HAVE THE STRAWMEN! ALL THE STRAWMEN!!! |
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10-16-2014, 07:08 PM | #24275 | |
Death Herald
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas
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Quote:
Yep, the Supreme Court ruled in Harman v. Forssenius that "the poll tax is abolished absolutely as a prerequisite to voting, and no equivalent or milder substitute may be imposed." In Crawford v. Marion County Election Board they let the Photo ID requirement stand because one would be provided for no fee or the person would sign a statement saying they were unable to get a Photo ID. The other things you mention aren't imposed by a governmental agency, so they wouldn't be considered poll taxes or equivalent.
__________________
Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint Last edited by cartman : 10-16-2014 at 07:12 PM. |
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10-16-2014, 07:09 PM | #24276 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Mountains
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Quote:
That link is about driving voter registration, and the criminal acts that accompanied that. But ya, I know there's many out there who actually care about and help poor people. (and smaller groups and individuals who help people get IDs for purposes beyond just helping the Democratic party). I just wish that was more of a focus of the parties. Last edited by molson : 10-16-2014 at 07:16 PM. |
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10-16-2014, 07:27 PM | #24277 | ||
Retired
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fantasyland
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Quote:
No, you just said it was a "fair point of contention". Pretty much the same fucking thing. And as for "people who pay taxes", the same thing occurs - disproportionate disenfranchising of minorities, poor, elderly and students. Do you actually think before you type? Quote:
And there's the strawman argument. You couldn't even deal with the substance of your own statement. I almost forgot why I have you on ignore. Thanks for reminding me. Last edited by Blackadar : 10-16-2014 at 07:33 PM. |
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10-16-2014, 07:38 PM | #24278 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Backwoods, SC
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Again you are either incapable of reading or intentionally trying to bait me just like the last time you sent me a PM begging me to "confront you on the board" and probably put me on ignore at that time when I didnt fall into your game.
I said if you dont own property OR have an income. You dont have to own property,in my statement. If you dont own property and have an income (even if it is a government subsidy) THEN you qualify to vote in my statement. But single out and misquote it to support your argument. By the way since it seems lost on several I never said real estate I said property. A car, a TV, and fucking piece of silverware. I will go ahead and say it if you have zero worldly possessions, and no income in this country then you have proven yourself incapable of having the mental fortitude to direct the future of the country. BTW I'll ignore the mental midget comment. Really dont value your opinion on my mental competence...I am comfotable enough in my own skin in what I have proven in my life on that front regardless of virtual validation from anonymous internet personas. Last edited by CU Tiger : 10-16-2014 at 07:42 PM. |
10-16-2014, 07:44 PM | #24279 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2013
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To be fair, most people interpret "having an income" and "owning property" differently than you do.
__________________
"I am God's prophet, and I need an attorney" |
10-16-2014, 08:48 PM | #24280 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Louie Gohmert has some wisdom:
Quote:
For the record, I'm perfectly okay if he's the next ebola victim.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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10-16-2014, 09:52 PM | #24281 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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Quote:
That doesn't make it racist. It means they want to win an election and their strategy is to make it more difficult for people who side with their opponent to vote. It's unethical but I don't think it's because they're racist. If blacks voted 95% Republican, they wouldn't be doing this. It's the same reason Illinois conveniently mailed out ballots to overseas military late so they couldn't get it back in time. |
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10-16-2014, 09:54 PM | #24282 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
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Also when you call everyone who disagrees with you a racist the word loses it's meaning.
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10-17-2014, 11:23 AM | #24283 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicagoland
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10-17-2014, 04:15 PM | #24284 | ||
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Quote:
Every time we hear about something about hundreds and hundreds of cases of voter fraud it always turns out to be almost entirely clerical errors or mistaken identities. In the South Carolina case it was originally a claim of 900 in a single election, which actually turned out to be 900 in 74 elections. Ultimately they found evidence that one dead person did vote, by submitting an absentee ballot and then dying before election day, and 5 cases that were unresolved that could possibly have been a dead person voting. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...98b4_blog.html Quote:
Last edited by mckerney : 10-17-2014 at 04:17 PM. |
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10-18-2014, 04:48 AM | #24285 |
Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Greensboro, NC
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I think Blackadar and CUTiger both need a couple of weeks to reconsider how they interact in this thread, and everyone else, consider yourselves warned. The personal attacks need to stop.
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10-18-2014, 09:12 AM | #24286 |
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Location: Newburgh, NY
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Cliven Bundy wants to talk about race:
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
10-18-2014, 09:39 AM | #24287 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Yep, if you're not a defense contractor you're a sucker.
Quote:
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To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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10-18-2014, 12:27 PM | #24288 |
Pro Starter
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Location: Cary, NC
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I would expand that to "if you don't know someone in government, you're a sucker". There is plenty of corruption outside defense contracts.
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10-18-2014, 01:37 PM | #24289 |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
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10-18-2014, 01:46 PM | #24290 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Quote:
But there are plenty of people out to cut spending everywhere else. If you're a defense contractor you can steal all your wheelbarrow can hold and rest assured that Congress will not only vote for more money to steal, but also give you a new gold plated wheelbarrow in gratitude for your service to the nation.
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To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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10-18-2014, 03:15 PM | #24291 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Cary, NC
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Quote:
Look, we can pull example after example of corruption across the spectrum, it's not a defense department specialty. The two big cases I remember around here was in the Wake County schools transportation department, where key officials were pocketing money, plus you had the whole Speaker of the House getting legislation passed to get every kid entering kindergarten an eye exam, ignoring that most already got them, and at that age they tend to be handled by the pediatrician - the entire bill was a payback to his optometrist buddies. That's top of my head, do I need to start the internet searches? Should I ignore Chicago, Detroit, and Massachusetts to keep it fair? Plus, when politicians cut spending, they love to go after the basics so people whine and complain and give them their money back. This goes back a ways, but I will never forget the City of Tampa asking for a tax increase to pay for fire and police budgets at the same time they decided to build a new convention center. Why else would people pour billions into these elections if they weren't expecting to get their money back? That's the whole point, isn't it? Don't even try to pretend this a Defense Department special, this is rampant.
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10-18-2014, 03:25 PM | #24292 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
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It's just that defense contracting is the safest route to riches. With "emergency" war spending there's almost a trillion dollars a year and both parties only want to increase the amount. You can steal from the government lots of places, but none are as lucrative or safe as defense/homeland security.
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To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
10-18-2014, 04:22 PM | #24293 | |
Pro Starter
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Location: Cary, NC
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Quote:
I will point out that this particular case was someone scratching the back of a relative, which happens THROUGHOUT government, at all levels. Sometimes they get caught, most of the time it's business as usual. I disagree that it's "the safest", these guys got caught, just like sometimes you get caught at other levels.
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10-18-2014, 06:22 PM | #24294 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicagoland
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Greg, you're totally missing the order of magnitude issue here.
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10-18-2014, 06:40 PM | #24295 |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Mountains
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Medicaid fraud is very easy too, with damage in the billions.
Medicare And Medicaid Fraud Is Costing Taxpayers Billions - Forbes But I'm just happy to see people from any party upset about any government waste and fraud. Even if people only want to pick the areas of government they don't like anyway to be upset about. Last edited by molson : 10-18-2014 at 06:41 PM. |
10-18-2014, 06:49 PM | #24296 | |
Pro Starter
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Location: Cary, NC
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Quote:
I seriously doubt it - you guys are overlooking the local / state levels in addition to the Federal Government. Would be interesting to compare Medicare fraud/corruption to Defense fraud/corruption...
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10-18-2014, 06:50 PM | #24297 |
Pro Starter
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Woops, missed Molson's post.
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10-18-2014, 06:56 PM | #24298 |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Mountains
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Attacking the fraud and waste and corruption in any area of government is just as good as cutting budgets, except without the downside of reduced services or reduced government employment. (It costs some money to attack the fraud and waste and corruption of course, but it would be a net financial gain anywhere in the federal government. And it would help employment numbers too).
Last edited by molson : 10-18-2014 at 06:57 PM. |
10-18-2014, 08:03 PM | #24299 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
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Quote:
This is one in a series. There's billions in cash that turned up missing in Iraq. Billions in contracts in Iraq that the GAO can't trace. The 500 million in Italian aircraft that we scrapped for 32k. And on and on and on. Because nobody in Congress is interested in cutting defense, it's open season. What other area of the government has literally no one looking to oversee expenditures. Even Rand Paul isn't interested in cutting the defense budget. btw- I'm fine with looking into Medicare/Medicaid fraud. I'm a big supporter of both programs, but where there's fraud I'm all for putting people in jail.
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10-18-2014, 08:05 PM | #24300 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Interesting strategy ... I wonder if the GOP will embrace or disavow Coulter and her message.
Ann Coulter To GOP: Stop 'Sucking Up' To Hispanics Quote:
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