|
View Poll Results: How is Obama doing? (poll started 6/6) | |||
Great - above my expectations | 18 | 6.87% | |
Good - met most of my expectations | 66 | 25.19% | |
Average - so so, disappointed a little | 64 | 24.43% | |
Bad - sold us out | 101 | 38.55% | |
Trout - don't know yet | 13 | 4.96% | |
Voters: 262. You may not vote on this poll |
|
Thread Tools |
09-06-2014, 07:48 AM | #23901 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
|
|
09-06-2014, 09:20 AM | #23902 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
|
Yeah. What country wants to give up it's independence?
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
09-06-2014, 11:11 AM | #23903 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Back in Houston!
|
Wouldn't they have just traded one foreign rule (Iraq) for another (USA)?
SI
__________________
Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out! Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!" Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!" |
09-06-2014, 11:45 AM | #23904 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
I suppose some history is worth repeating: e.g., Marshal Plan.
|
09-06-2014, 11:47 AM | #23905 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
|
Quote:
It's not like they agreed to be ruled by Saddam. We certainly had the power to take over, but there's no doubt that it would have been a hostile occupation.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
|
09-06-2014, 04:15 PM | #23906 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
|
At that time, we kicked out Saddam but and Iraq would still have been a threat if the US left the region. There was a time when the Kuwaiti's would have wanted US to stay to protect them.
I think an "agreement" to stay for x years to protect them would have been welcome. |
09-06-2014, 04:25 PM | #23907 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
|
That's basically what happened, but that's a much different agreement than being a protectorate. The Kuwaitis weren't interested in letting the U.S. have control of internal or diplomatic affairs as is implied by being a protectorate.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
09-06-2014, 04:56 PM | #23908 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
|
Is that what they would have said before the US came in to kick out Saddam? Don't think so, they would have agreed to anything. There was an opportunity to strengthen our hold in Arabian peninsula when they were running scared.
|
09-06-2014, 06:38 PM | #23909 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
|
So the plan would be to subjugate at the end of a gun?
You don't think that might have had unintended consequences?
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
09-06-2014, 07:17 PM | #23910 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
|
Quote:
There's always unintended consequences. The path we took didn't turn out so well either. I think my point is the Kuwaiti's would not have considered it subjugation at the end of gun at that period, they would have viewed us as reclaiming their land and protecting them for x years. |
|
09-06-2014, 07:30 PM | #23911 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
|
I can't imagine they would have looked at it any differently than the Iraqis did a decade later.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
09-06-2014, 07:35 PM | #23912 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
|
Quote:
Dude - it's the White Man's burden...we've got to civilize the world - at the barrel of our guns if that's what it takes. Last edited by DaddyTorgo : 09-06-2014 at 07:35 PM. |
|
09-06-2014, 08:52 PM | #23913 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
|
|
09-08-2014, 02:22 PM | #23914 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
|
Putting it here because it's politically related. Big WTF to Romney over his comments in the Fox News interview yesterday.
Dear Mitt, this governor is a swindler and a crook. "Family tragedy"? "Sympathies"? You've seriously lost your mind. Quote:
|
|
09-08-2014, 02:29 PM | #23915 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
|
Quote:
I guess what he's saying is that we can't know if that's what knocked McD off his shortlist or what, but the fact that he can't just means that he opens himself up to attacks if/when he chooses to run for something again that (a) he was okay with it, or (b) his vetting process sucked so much that he didn't uncover it. |
|
09-08-2014, 02:32 PM | #23916 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
|
Quote:
I have more of a problem with the fact that he simply didn't call a spade a spade. Makes me think he's considering running for something if he's going to sugar coat it that much. |
|
09-08-2014, 02:49 PM | #23917 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
|
Quote:
I think that's basically my point too? But at the same time I don't think it's a very wise stance to take if he is going to run. |
|
09-08-2014, 02:55 PM | #23918 | ||
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicagoland
|
Quote:
IIRC, the "vetting process" starts after the shortlist is assembled. The short list is assembled on political/demographic/geographic/fundraising criteria. The the "vetting process" begins, which gets (quite extensively) into all the other stuff, including especially any skeletons in the closet. Given everything that happened, it's quite likely that this knocked McD off the short list. Quote:
Your outrage is justified, but it's not particularly common for politicians of the same party to denounce each other in public. Especially politicians like Romney who try and present a genial / patrician kind of image. |
||
09-08-2014, 03:10 PM | #23919 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
|
Quote:
Oh I agree that's probably the case - but my point is that by not coming out and saying at least "Well we uncovered some troubling things and that's why he didn't advance further in our process" he opens himself up to attack my (D)'s and fellow (R)'s during any future campaigns. Then again - I suppose if he comes out and says he uncovered it he opens himself up to criminal charges - at least more political attacks. |
|
09-08-2014, 03:10 PM | #23920 | |
High School Varsity
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Lynchburg, VA
|
I think it was probably this
Quote:
|
|
09-09-2014, 06:44 AM | #23921 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicagoland
|
Quote:
Right, it's no-win. That, plus the general precedent that what happens in vetting sessions (which have been very thorough in the past decade and a half, if not a bit longer) stays confidential, means the right decision is to say as little as possible. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Romney fan. But I don't think he did a lot wrong here. |
|
09-10-2014, 08:08 PM | #23922 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Concord, MA/UMass
|
Did other people know ISIS was pronounced isul?
|
09-10-2014, 09:08 PM | #23923 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
|
There is ISIS and ISIL.
Obama is intentionally avoiding the word ISIS. |
09-10-2014, 09:57 PM | #23924 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
|
I think ISIL is a more accurate translation, but Americans don't know what the hell is meant by the Levant, so many places substitute Syria.
As for the content of the speech, it's so fucking depressing. No real strategy, endless war, no Congressional vote(not that they have the stones to do anything other than bitch afterwards), and a shaky coalition at best. We've always been at war with Eurasia.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
09-11-2014, 08:06 AM | #23925 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicagoland
|
++ @ JPhillips
|
09-11-2014, 08:10 AM | #23926 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
|
|
09-11-2014, 08:11 AM | #23927 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
|
Quote:
WOOO MORE WAR //sarcasm ///tired of fucking war ////brother is doing ROTC @ college |
|
09-11-2014, 08:47 AM | #23928 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
|
Quote:
Yes it's fucking disgusting. Don't tell me that the speech just happened to fall in the eve of 9-11 either. Sadly we are far outnumbered by the "kill all Muslums" voting block in both parties. |
|
09-11-2014, 09:01 AM | #23929 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
|
Quote:
Oh of course not - we all know it was 100% planned that way. Cheap political jingoistic heartstring-tugging bullshit. Anyone know where I can get one of those "no blood for oil" bumper stickers these days? |
|
09-11-2014, 09:20 AM | #23930 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
|
Quote:
But we probably don't want to consider that ISIS/ISIL grew in prominence at this point in an election cycle either. Or that a senior Homeland Security official confirmed to a Senate panel yesterday that the group was actively encouraging infiltration of the U.S. via our southern border. Successful prevention of a terrorist operation at the border would provide the opportunity to gain political capital at a useful point in the election cycle.
__________________
"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis |
|
09-11-2014, 11:15 AM | #23931 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: North Carolina
|
I'm probably in the top 5% of President Obama supporters. I think that he's been the best president in my lifetime (born 1976).
But I am amazingly disappointed in his approach to ISIS/ISIL. If they are not that big of a deal, then do not commit us to some sort of vague open-ended engagement in the Middle East to accomplish "something something mumble mumble TERRORISM." We've been doing that for far too long already. If they are that big of a deal and that big of a threat then go to Congress and make your case. I am not interested in the semantics of whether military actions here would technically fall under the post-9/11 AUMF. This is the exact sort of thing that, semantics aside, should be for Congress to authorize. Tell them what you want to do. Tell them why you need to do it. Tell them where you need to do it. And provide (to the extent possible) what will constitute the end of the hostilities. And then let them say yes or no. I am not privy to the classified intel. It may very well be that it is in America's best interest to attack there before they attack here. But if it is, then MAKE THAT CASE. And not with vague PR briefings. |
09-11-2014, 11:26 AM | #23932 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicagoland
|
Agree 100%, albionmoonlight.
|
09-11-2014, 11:37 AM | #23933 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
|
Quote:
Totally agree. Although I think at this point my ME foreign policy would either be 1. Quarantine the region and let Sunni/Shiite fight to the death and then deal with whoever's left once they're beaten up. And "deal with" could mean peaceful engagement to annihilation. Whatever they want. 2. Bomb the whole damn region back to the Stone Age starting tomorrow. Indiscriminately basically. Whole nother set of Crusades. Get the Russians behind it and just fucking deal with the whole thing once and for all. I'm not really a violent person, but I'm beyond tired of the open-ended nature of our involvement in the region. I'd compromise my normally non-violent ethos in exchange for a permanant solution to that whole issue. I don't see any of the "slow play" policies we've pursued in the region having had positive effects. Strongman governments okay, but the populace is just ripe for radicalization for a number of different reasons. And yes, this post is an extreme, venting-style post, not really a serious policy suggestion. |
|
09-11-2014, 12:05 PM | #23934 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
|
Quote:
And I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to Obama, I think he's been the second worst (and 2nd most dangerous) occupant of the Oval Office in history ... but I really don't have an issue with an executive rather than Congressional approach here. Assuming compelling evidence exists for a moment, it's reasonable to believe that large chunks of it are classified. I don't really trust Congress, nor even a select committee to not leak details that could be dangerous or damaging for political gain. And that's a finger I'm definitely pointing at members of both parties. And I say that even as someone who feels like there is a pretty good chance that ISIS/ISIL is a Wag The Dog operation & that we're manipulating events as much or more than they are.
__________________
"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis Last edited by JonInMiddleGA : 09-11-2014 at 12:06 PM. |
|
09-11-2014, 02:24 PM | #23935 |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: SF
|
I have not really been following the ISIS stuff, so I'm confused on what's happening.
What is their goal? It seems to me by doing the public beheadings they want US and other countries to attack them. But it seems far from an even fight. I imagine the US bombings will cause a massive amount of damage and lost lives, is this what they wanted? It seems different than Afghanistan in that they are not necessarily fighting on or for historically controlled land. It makes me wonder if there are other goals in place. Such as being a money making opportunity for a few people. Or, a wag the dog enemy created by Assad, Egypt, etc. Or knowing there is going to be a massive realignment of Iraq and they want to get their share (Berlin-like). |
09-11-2014, 02:30 PM | #23936 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Mountains
|
Quote:
I think it's just the classic Russians in Afghanistan/Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan strategy. Superpower economies can be damaged by getting involved in these kinds of wars. From an ISIS perspective, I'm sure one of the hopes is that the U.S. is only one more of these wars away from maybe not being a superpower anymore. And even though they'd take many losses in the meantime, the next wave of their brand of fundamentalism would be even stronger, with less American resistance. Which would open the door to more control over the middle east. I know there's lots of shorter-term regional goals too, but targeting America I think is mostly about that. Last edited by molson : 09-11-2014 at 02:31 PM. |
|
09-11-2014, 02:31 PM | #23937 |
Death Herald
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas
|
They are fighting to form a caliphate, which, depending on which time in history you are looking, covered most of the area they are currently in, as well as what is now Saudi Arabia and Iran.
I'm sure they know it is an uneven fight, but martyrdom isn't a deterrent to them.
__________________
Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint |
09-11-2014, 03:27 PM | #23938 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
|
Boehner hits Obama for ruling out boots on the ground - CNN.com
Oh goody, the "boots on the ground" hawks have started banging the drums already. //sigh |
09-11-2014, 03:35 PM | #23939 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
|
Quote:
Eh, realistically that's going to be what it takes to take them out completely. Whether it's our or somebody else's. Our air + regional troops (the ever popular "coalition" scenario) might manage it. Otherwise, eh, you're just annoying them for ever how long you'll use the airstrikes, you won't eliminate them with it.
__________________
"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis |
|
09-11-2014, 03:40 PM | #23940 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
|
Quote:
I understand the reality of the situation - just don't like it. Would much rather do one of the two options I posted above then see another US soldier on the ground as part of this never-ending, undefined, "war on terror." |
|
09-11-2014, 03:59 PM | #23941 |
Solecismic Software
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Canton, OH
|
We've spent, what, decades, trying to take them out completely. There's enormous value in keeping this fight off of American soil, but let's not imagine for a second that we can do anything to eliminate religious extremism.
There are 60-70 countries in this world (out of close to 200) experiencing some form of civil war. All but a handful are at war with one of dozens of Islamic extremist groups. Obama is right, this isn't Islam we're fighting. It's a form of extremism that crops up everywhere that has very little to do with the tenets of one particular religion. Obama took sides in the Egypt mess, and the result was Morsi. Egypt is only starting to recover from that disaster. Better to evaluate every individual instance on its own and not have an overriding "plan" that will be obsolete by the time it's formulated. The worst thing to do, though, is pick a side and add weapons. Those arms invariably change hands and make the next conflict that much worse. Obama's biggest mistake wasn't in leaving Iraq, it was in how he left Iraq. |
09-11-2014, 04:16 PM | #23942 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Decatur, GA
|
Quote:
Indeed. The most frustrating thing is this constant game of wack-a-mole, and its almost impossible to know who is going to pop up where, even in places we think are fine (seriously - 5 years ago who thought all this crap was going to happen in Syria?).
__________________
"A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams |
|
09-11-2014, 05:25 PM | #23943 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
|
Quote:
Hey, I've been a proponent of the "black glass" approach for many years. My only hesitancy is fallout, making the region one of the best arguments ever for enhanced neutron bomb capability.
__________________
"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis |
|
09-12-2014, 09:31 AM | #23944 | |||
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicagoland
|
Quote:
There is no evidence, whatsoever, that what we have done has "kept the fight off of American soil". In fact, the fact that we have been active in the region for decades and still had 9/11 and 7/7 points to the contrary. Quote:
All of this, though, I agree with 150%. Quote:
If you think we have problems with extremists now, wait until you do this. |
|||
09-12-2014, 09:50 AM | #23945 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Bath, ME
|
|
09-12-2014, 10:53 AM | #23946 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Apr 2005
|
Quote:
While I'm with John on being on the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to Obama (and I'm younger than you, ablion), I appreciate your thoughts on the process. |
|
09-12-2014, 12:28 PM | #23947 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Back in Houston!
|
Quote:
I'd be curious who your worst president in history is. EDIT: My guess would be Carter but I'm not certain it'd be right SI
__________________
Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out! Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!" Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!" Last edited by sterlingice : 09-12-2014 at 12:30 PM. |
|
09-12-2014, 12:40 PM | #23948 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
|
|
09-12-2014, 01:05 PM | #23949 |
Team Chaplain
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Just outside Des Moines, IA
|
I don't know JohnInMiddleGA well, but if he says Obama is second worst/most dangerous president in history, using that terminology, I would guess Woodrow Wilson would be a guy in the running for No. 1.
__________________
Winner of 6 FOFC Scribe Awards, including 3 Gold Scribes Founder of the ZFL, 2004 Golden Scribe Dynasty of the Year Now bringing The Des Moines Dragons back to life, and the joke's on YOU, NFL! I came to the Crossroad. I took it. And that has made all the difference. |
09-12-2014, 01:09 PM | #23950 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 34 (0 members and 34 guests) | |
Thread Tools | |
|
|