The Obama Presidency - 2008 & 2012

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

The world must be such a scary scary place to you in order to engender this level of fear, defensiveness, hostility, and anger.

I'm sorry - I actually pity you (although I'm sure you don't care and will view that as a sign of my weakness, etc.). I wish it wasn't that way for you.

Eh, is what it is.

I probably suffer more from the sheer ... let's go with "sadness" of seeing a once great nation sink into a sad cesspool than I suffer from the other stuff. Just trying to hold on to what little good is left for whatever time I'm stuck with being here. Not necessarily an optimist about the outcome so it's not as though I have much in the way of hopes to be dashed or anything. And I first quoted Job 14:1* a looooooong time ago.


*screw it, I'll save the unfamiliar the Google
Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

{shrug}

Better an asshole with a country than one that surrenders without putting up a fight.

You honestly haven't the foggiest how readily I'd depopulate the planet to a fraction of its current occupancy, that I'd bat nary an eyelash to defend my home against invasion (as well as an occupying force) should be absolutely no surprise whatsoever.

It that bothers you somehow, well, I'll make a note to add that info its proper slot on the grand list of stuff in my life. Fair warning though, might be a while before I get around to addressing it. Priorities, you understand.

You vastly overstate your own significance in this world.

[SportsDino]

If we ever got a world up to Jon's standards he would have to be put down like a rabid dog. I doubt he could survive without his hatred.

So far the solutions I see:
Shotgun to the face. Take the kids to the nearest border at gunpoint and make them someone else's problem. Stupid hippie Bush and his lack of immigration reform has put legal barriers in place to slow this down, but it could be expedited.

Foreign protection. Set up camps outside the US with expensive funding and make it a humanitarian effort. Either force treaties with home countries of the kids to provide land and some funding, or start shotgun to the face on anyone unwilling to go to camp and ship them home at regular intervals.

General amnesty. Everyone is a citizen, will guarantee a flood of more coming. If we had a robust economy, strong social support, and incentives for a good work ethic this would be a boon, but in our failure oriented society and bungling leadership this will accelerate many other problems.

New Liberdonia. Create an island purely for illegal immigrants with is own legal system and an economy purely based around humanitarian efforts and self support. Massively expensive but arguably provides a path to a better life for the kids with mandatory education and workforce participation to maintain the island. The penalty is immediate exile to wherever we decide to dump you. Could also be used as a graduated path to amnesty, you graduate high school and complete a few years of service you get citizenship and a ticket off the island.

The last is more the plot of a science fiction book, but I wanted something a little sillier but not as silly as Jon's Great American Massacre Adventure.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Eh, is what it is.

I probably suffer more from the sheer ... let's go with "sadness" of seeing a once great nation sink into a sad cesspool than I suffer from the other stuff. Just trying to hold on to what little good is left for whatever time I'm stuck with being here. Not necessarily an optimist about the outcome so it's not as though I have much in the way of hopes to be dashed or anything. And I first quoted Job 14:1* a looooooong time ago.


*screw it, I'll save the unfamiliar the Google
Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble.

No - you like to paint it as some sadness or whatever you want to think of it as to try to make it more noble, but I'm pretty certain that the reality is what I said in my post originally, and your "noble" vision is just what your mind tells you to cope with it so you can get through everyday.

I'm not a psychiatrist, but I have very little doubt that if you went and saw one that's the conclusion they'd come to.

Not going to presume to play armchair psychiatrist since we have one here on the board and I don't want to draw him into this, but I'm thinking there's something medically not-right with you.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble.

I prefer Ecc 9:9:

Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun--all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Not going to presume to play armchair psychiatrist since we have one here on the board and I don't want to draw him into this, but I'm thinking there's something medically not-right with you.

Like I said, there isn't much left here to salvage. We've reached the point where someone can actually suggest that there's something wrong with wanting to defend your nation from invaders who serve as expensive human locusts moreso than anything else ... sigh.

Damn man, the French would put up more resistance than we're managing anymore.

But like I said earlier, it's not exactly new. Most of my lifetime has been spent watching "useful idiots' do their damndest to destroy the country, I hardly know anything else existed aside from the history books.

[Solecismic]

Our newest World Heritage Site (there are 22 in the United States) is Poverty Point, Louisiana. Got the designation a couple of months ago. Essentially a series of grass mounds. Excavations indicate signs of some sort of society, though the people were still in the hunter-gatherer stage at the time.

The oldest of these areas dates back about 3,600 years ago. Yet, I'd be willing to bet there were plenty of people back then who looked at the group building these constructions and said, "damn foreigners, messing up our forests for who knows what."

The Mayflower was about 400 years ago - or a little more like 11% of the history of settlements of some sort in our country.

I read enough to know that if I were around a century ago, I'd probably read negative stuff about the Italians or the Irish. Before that, the Jews. And let's not get started on the poor people forced here to work on the land before that.

One thing's a constant in any country, anywhere. People hate newcomers, meaning anyone who immigrated anytime after they did.

Our planet's up to seven billion people. That means if everyone in the world wanted to watch a Michigan home football game, it would take about 1,000 years to get them all in once (which, until Rich Rodriguez, was about the length of the wait list for season tickets).

We happen to live in a country that can handle a lot more population, though there are questions about the water supply, just like everywhere.

But we are a nation of laws. Civilization requires a good set of laws. If people won't follow them, it harms our quality of life and limits how many people our country can handle.

Like anything, there's a balance of what should and should not be enforced. This is a real crisis for people who live near the border. Their children are growing up in a difficult area in a difficult time. This situation is not being handled well - we're turning an opportunity into something that does seem to be causing real harm.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

We've been invaded by thousands of leeches, thanks in no small part to the worthless p.o.s. in the Oval Office and that's somehow a "GOP-manufactured crisis"?

W.T.F. ?

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

[SirFozzie]

And to talk about the other key issue facing America, I'm going to have to veer a bit here. A lot of my friends are posting a lot how Israel is being "evil" and crushing the Palestinians, yadda yadda yadda.

Bullpuckey.

Hamas-led fighters have launched somewhere in the neighborhood of 3,000 rockets (it was 2600 four days ago) into Israel. Even with the vaunted Iron Dome technology, it's either massive financial loss (some of which the US absorbs) from continually firing counter missiles.. to property loss and the loss of lives from the ones that get through.

The ceasefire that was so ballyhooed? Broke down 30 minutes into scheduled 72 hours because of Hamas, not because of Israel

The major spur of the ground forces in Gaza isn't house to house fighting, it's to destroy saboteur tunnels built in Gaza and extending into Israel proper.

At some point, Hamas and crew have to stop if there's ever going to be peace. But the reason Hamas is in power in Gaza is because of the hatred of Israel. Honestly? I don't think that they would survive in power if they could enforce a cease fire.

Do I think Israel is blameless? No. I think they believe (and possibly rightly so) that no peace is possible right now, so their actions with settlements etcetera is designed to inflame the situations, figuring at some point, after they've been kicked enough times, that someone on the Palestinian will realize that armed struggle against Israel has not, and CANNOT work out well, then things will move forward.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Damned if I feel even the least bit beholden to a century-old poetess who likely never came close to envisioning the sort of assault on a nation that we've endured in recent decades.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

There are millions in Africa, millions in Central and South America, millions in Asia who would love to come to this country. Millions who would love to move from 3rd world countries to a place like the United States.

If you speak about the issue in absolutes, you have to accept that everyone has a right from all across the world to come here and be supported.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Damned if I feel even the least bit beholden to a century-old poetess who likely never came close to envisioning the sort of assault on a nation that we've endured in recent decades.

I'm sure that they felt the same way when they posted signs in the early 20th century saying "No Dagos and WOPs".

There are always going to be reactionary dinosaurs who think that allowing "X group" of people into america is a crisis and is going to change america forever for the worse. Hasn't happened yet."

The thing about dinosaurs? Dinosaurs go extinct. (Humans may too, if we can't figure a way to avoid blowing up the earth :P)

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There are millions in Africa, millions in Central and South America, millions in Asia who would love to come to this country. Millions who would love to move from 3rd world countries to a place like the United States.

If you speak about the issue in absolutes, you have to accept that everyone has a right from all across the world to come here and be supported.

Agreed. And at that point, I'm choosing sides with one extreme or another and I get my hunting license and go hunting with Jon.

SirFozzie, please feel free to review our current legal immigration procedures and laws and tell us what's wrong with those and what needs to be reformed.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by flereismaho

I also love how Boehner recommends (elsewhere) that Obama use an executive order to fix the problem. Which, I'm sure, the GOP would never use in attacks against Obama....

I hate what the GOP is doing right now with the lawsuit. Impeach him, or leave him be. Suing a sitting president is absurd and unintentionally ironic(abusing power to punish another branch for abuse of power ... )

Having said that, there's nothing inherently hypocritical here because this is exactly the kind of situation the president has executive authority for.

On the immigration front, I think it's simply beyond understanding to call it an 'invasion' or label them 'cockroaches', terminology which lacks basic humanity. The problem has to be attacked on both sides of the border. Border security itself needs more effort and investment, but even far more important in my view is regulation and investigation of businesses. Any found hiring illegals without proper documentation should be subject to punitive measures severe enough to make ignoring the laws prohibitively foolish, not a minor footnote in the cost of doing business. Revoking of licenses to operate for repeat offenders would not be at all out of line.

None of this will happen of course, because we have shamefully allowed our economy to depend too much in certain areas on cheap, illegal labor.

On 'give me your tired, your poor' -- there are legal channels. I'm one who is against the very idea of patriotism/nationalism but a sovereign nation still has to control its borders. If it refuses to, or can't, nothing good will come of it.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I hate what the GOP is doing right now with the lawsuit. Impeach him, or leave him be. Suing a sitting president is absurd and unintentionally ironic(abusing power to punish another branch for abuse of power ... )

Having said that, there's nothing inherently hypocritical here because this is exactly the kind of situation the president has executive authority for.

On the immigration front, I think it's simply beyond understanding to call it an 'invasion' or label them 'cockroaches', terminology which lacks basic humanity. The problem has to be attacked on both sides of the border. Border security itself needs more effort and investment, but even far more important in my view is regulation and investigation of businesses. Any found hiring illegals without proper documentation should be subject to punitive measures severe enough to make ignoring the laws prohibitively foolish, not a minor footnote in the cost of doing business. Revoking of licenses to operate for repeat offenders would not be at all out of line.

None of this will happen of course, because we have shamefully allowed our economy to depend too much in certain areas on cheap, illegal labor.

On 'give me your tired, your poor' -- there are legal channels. I'm one who is against the very idea of patriotism/nationalism but a sovereign nation still has to control its borders. If it refuses to, or can't, nothing good will come of it.

For as much as I disagreed with you in the other thread - this is actually a sensible post - particularly when it comes to the economic argument and making it prohibitively expensive to employ illegal immigrants (which is the real key as you note) instead of just a slap-on-the-wrist cost of doing business).

[Edward64]

Not sure what Obama will ultimately do with executive orders and I did not find any definite articles. Here's a couple articles on what he could do ...

What steps can Obama take on immigration without Congress? - CBS News

What can President Barack Obama actually do without Congress to change U.S. immigration policies? A lot, it turns out.

There are some limits under federal law, and anything the White House ultimately decides to do may be challenged in court as unconstitutional. But leading legal experts say the White House almost certainly could delay indefinitely efforts to deport millions of immigrants already in the U.S. illegally, and it could give them official work permits that would allow them to legally find jobs, obtain driver's licenses and pay income taxes.

Obama's Executive Actions on Immigration Reform Likely Expand DACA | New Republic

1. Expand the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA). Obama took executive action in 2012, granting children of undocumented immigrants a temporary reprieve from deportation. This was effectively the unilateral implementation of the DREAM Act. As Nora Caplan-Bricker wrote for The New Republic in March, an expansion of DACA is the most likely course of action for the Administration right now.
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2. Reform the Secure Communities fingerprint program. DHS runs the Secure Communities program to identify immigrants in jail who are eligible for deportation. The program has come under criticism from many officials for capturing too many offenders and noncriminals
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3. End state and local law enforcement’s role in determining enforcement priorities. The AFL-CIO has recommended that DHS “reassert the primary role of the federal government in determining and implementing enforcement priorities by ending programs that effectively delegate those responsibilities to state and local law enforcement.”
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4. Mass pardons. Obama could also grant mass pardons to the millions of undocumented immigrants. This wouldn’t give them citizenship, but it would allow them to stay in the United States legally. Obama certainly has the authority to do so, but it’s hard to imagine him taking such action, given the few pardons he has granted throughout his presidency.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

There are always going to be reactionary dinosaurs who think that allowing "X group" of people into america is a crisis and is going to change america forever for the worse. Hasn't happened yet."

There's where we disagree on a fundamental point: this nation has been in severe decline for decades, and the cultural erosion caused by obscenely excessive immigration is part of that.

These are common criminals whose very presence proves their unwillingness to be a law-abiding component of society. And claiming that's "okay" -- as part of a larger "everything is okay ... except maybe respect for law or anything in the nation's history worth retaining" attitude -- is unpardonable afaic.

It's to our own detriment -- and perhaps our well-deserved demise -- that it hasn't been treated as a capital offense of the highest order. Truly, a legion of useful idiots has done more to destroy the country than all our external enemies combined.

[chadritt]

Sooooo...are you Native American, did your family come over on the mayflower, or what?

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

There's where we disagree on a fundamental point: this nation has been in severe decline for decades, and the cultural erosion caused by obscenely excessive immigration is part of that.

These are common criminals whose very presence proves their unwillingness to be a law-abiding component of society. And claiming that's "okay" -- as part of a larger "everything is okay ... except maybe respect for law or anything in the nation's history worth retaining" attitude -- is unpardonable afaic.

It's to our own detriment -- and perhaps our well-deserved demise -- that it hasn't been treated as a capital offense of the highest order. Truly, a legion of useful idiots has done more to destroy the country than all our external enemies combined.

See Also: Ku Klux Klan.

[Izulde]

FWIW while I obviously don't agree with Jon's extreme views on this issue, I would definitely like to see much tighter restrictions on foreign nationals in STEM graduate programs. As it stands right now, the Chinese in particular are going to STEM graduate programs in the US, learning everything they can, and taking the technology and knowledge they've learned back to China with them. I've had numerous Chinese nationals tell me the Chinese government laughs at how stupid the US is in this regard - they're often given assistantships and scholarships, so in essence they're paid to come here and acquire our knowledge and technology, then take it back home.

Note that I'm only talking about STEM fields here. Humanities and Social Sciences, no problem... come on over. Cultural exchange is quite valuable in that regard. But we need to do a much better job of protecting our scientific and technological knowledge, particularly against those countries who could well rival us in power.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Izulde

FWIW while I obviously don't agree with Jon's extreme views on this issue, I would definitely like to see much tighter restrictions on foreign nationals in STEM graduate programs. As it stands right now, the Chinese in particular are going to STEM graduate programs in the US, learning everything they can, and taking the technology and knowledge they've learned back to China with them. I've had numerous Chinese nationals tell me the Chinese government laughs at how stupid the US is in this regard - they're often given assistantships and scholarships, so in essence they're paid to come here and acquire our knowledge and technology, then take it back home.

Note that I'm only talking about STEM fields here. Humanities and Social Sciences, no problem... come on over. Cultural exchange is quite valuable in that regard. But we need to do a much better job of protecting our scientific and technological knowledge, particularly against those countries who could well rival us in power.

I'd argue that this has to go hand-in-hand with encouraging STEM scholarship and jobs here in the US though.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I'd argue that this has to go hand-in-hand with encouraging STEM scholarship and jobs here in the US though.

I think that's already starting to happen. Hell, look at English departments... the emphasis has changed to composition and rhetoric to the point where literature is banned from being taught in freshman English classes, and I believe there's been a decline in the number of schools that require a literature course as a Gen Ed requirement. I know for certain at one school they nearly lost World Literature and had to go through one hell of a political fight to keep it a Gen Ed requirement. Another school used to teach Literature as the second half of their two semester composition program, and now that's been dropped entirely.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

And to talk about the other key issue facing America, I'm going to have to veer a bit here. A lot of my friends are posting a lot how Israel is being "evil" and crushing the Palestinians, yadda yadda yadda.

Bullpuckey.

Hamas-led fighters have launched somewhere in the neighborhood of 3,000 rockets (it was 2600 four days ago) into Israel. Even with the vaunted Iron Dome technology, it's either massive financial loss (some of which the US absorbs) from continually firing counter missiles.. to property loss and the loss of lives from the ones that get through.

The ceasefire that was so ballyhooed? Broke down 30 minutes into scheduled 72 hours because of Hamas, not because of Israel

The major spur of the ground forces in Gaza isn't house to house fighting, it's to destroy saboteur tunnels built in Gaza and extending into Israel proper.

At some point, Hamas and crew have to stop if there's ever going to be peace. But the reason Hamas is in power in Gaza is because of the hatred of Israel. Honestly? I don't think that they would survive in power if they could enforce a cease fire.

Do I think Israel is blameless? No. I think they believe (and possibly rightly so) that no peace is possible right now, so their actions with settlements etcetera is designed to inflame the situations, figuring at some point, after they've been kicked enough times, that someone on the Palestinian will realize that armed struggle against Israel has not, and CANNOT work out well, then things will move forward.

Sounds good, but the reality is that there will never be peace until Israel is destroyed.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by chadritt

Sooooo...are you Native American, did your family come over on the mayflower, or what?

Won by conquest.

I'd prefer not following their example.

[miked]

Originally Posted by Izulde

FWIW while I obviously don't agree with Jon's extreme views on this issue, I would definitely like to see much tighter restrictions on foreign nationals in STEM graduate programs. As it stands right now, the Chinese in particular are going to STEM graduate programs in the US, learning everything they can, and taking the technology and knowledge they've learned back to China with them. I've had numerous Chinese nationals tell me the Chinese government laughs at how stupid the US is in this regard - they're often given assistantships and scholarships, so in essence they're paid to come here and acquire our knowledge and technology, then take it back home.

Note that I'm only talking about STEM fields here. Humanities and Social Sciences, no problem... come on over. Cultural exchange is quite valuable in that regard. But we need to do a much better job of protecting our scientific and technological knowledge, particularly against those countries who could well rival us in power.

You are mostly wrong, but only because I may chair admissions for a very highly ranked STEM graduate program.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Izulde

FWIW while I obviously don't agree with Jon's extreme views on this issue, I would definitely like to see much tighter restrictions on foreign nationals in STEM graduate programs. As it stands right now, the Chinese in particular are going to STEM graduate programs in the US, learning everything they can, and taking the technology and knowledge they've learned back to China with them. I've had numerous Chinese nationals tell me the Chinese government laughs at how stupid the US is in this regard - they're often given assistantships and scholarships, so in essence they're paid to come here and acquire our knowledge and technology, then take it back home.

Note that I'm only talking about STEM fields here. Humanities and Social Sciences, no problem... come on over. Cultural exchange is quite valuable in that regard. But we need to do a much better job of protecting our scientific and technological knowledge, particularly against those countries who could well rival us in power.

I believe a key reason why so many are going back is because US immigration laws are tough -- have to find a job with a company willing to sponsor you and then you are locked down for 5+ years while the process goes through (or it used to be). Sure some will still go back but think majority will stay.

I do think this is a problem and we should counter it somehow.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Izulde

I think that's already starting to happen. Hell, look at English departments... the emphasis has changed to composition and rhetoric to the point where literature is banned from being taught in freshman English classes, and I believe there's been a decline in the number of schools that require a literature course as a Gen Ed requirement. I know for certain at one school they nearly lost World Literature and had to go through one hell of a political fight to keep it a Gen Ed requirement. Another school used to teach Literature as the second half of their two semester composition program, and now that's been dropped entirely.

Are you saying there is a trend where literature classes are replaced by STEM classes? or is it that literature is now optional vs required?

I know that I'm going to get hell for this from some members of this board but honestly I can't think of how literature has helped me in my adult life. I'm from the STEM background so naturally biased.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Are you saying there is a trend where literature classes are replaced by STEM classes? or is it that literature is now optional vs required?

I know that I'm going to get hell for this from some members of this board but honestly I can't think of how literature has helped me in my adult life. I'm from the STEM background so naturally biased.

I'm saying it's a trend where literature is being phased out of the college curriculum in favor of non-fiction reading about contemporary real world issues, and an emphasis on composition and rhetoric, or, to put it more bluntly, technical writing.

That's what happens when the focus switches to STEM - just get to a level of technical competency and communication in writing and argumentation, and forget the literature because it doesn't matter. I think that's probably the biggest reason why rhet/comp is winning the war in English departments over the literature old guard - everything is all about the utilitarian and the practical these days, particularly with a still very weak job market. So going along with the trend is in essence a matter of survival and adaptation.

Of course, people should have seen this coming (including me). Poetry was reduced to the margins decades ago, and it's precisely where literature is headed if there isn't a strong enough effort to preserve it.

I think a lot of people don't realize what they learn from literature because they approach things in a very literal sense (if you'll pardon the slight pun), and from the strictly literal "What did I learn from this?", it's not immediately apparent. But what it subconsciously teaches you is empathy, a broad cultural and global viewpoint, emotion, imagination, and the exploration of what it means to be human. It opens your mind to possibilities and makes you consider things in ways that you hadn't before.

And from a writing standpoint, reading only non-fiction can teach you be to a competent writer. It will never teach you to be a great one. You can't learn the tenor, cadence, and power of language very well from non-fiction. For that, you need literature.

I also remember reading somewhere that the experience of reading literature activates different parts of the brain than reading non-fiction or watching a TV show or film, but I can't remember where that article is.

[Edward64]

Well this doesn't sound good. Haven't heard much from Obama lately on this.

Iraq's biggest dam seized by Islamic State fighters

Islamic State fighters seized control of Iraq's biggest dam, an oilfield and three more towns on Sunday after inflicting their first major defeat on Kurdish forces since sweeping through the region in June.

Capture of the Mosul Dam after an offensive of barely 24 hours could give the Sunni militants the ability to flood major Iraqi cities, sharply raising the stakes in their bid to topple Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki's Shi'ite-led government.
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Since thousands of Iraqi soldiers fled the Islamic State offensive, Shi'ite militias and Kurdish fighters have been seen as a critical line of defense against the militants, who have threatened to march on Baghdad.

But Sunday's battles have called into question the effectiveness of the Kurdish fighters and have increased pressure on Iraqi leaders to form a power-sharing government capable of countering the Islamic State.

[chadritt]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Won by conquest.

I'd prefer not following their example.

Im just trying to figure out when it stopped being ok to come over. Was it when the white people came over with diseases and weapons to kill everyone? Was it when they came over and organized crime started to run rampant? Was it when they fled Europe because the Jews started to not be welcome there? Or was it when it became brown people coming over?

[chadritt]

Dola- Dont get me wrong, each of those times also brought a heck of a lot of good immigrants over too including my family.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by chadritt

Dola- Dont get me wrong, each of those times also brought a heck of a lot of good immigrants over too including my family.

I think I'm getting you wrong. Are you unhappy with our current immigration policy? Are you blaming America for possibly one day enforcing our immigration rules and borders?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I know that I'm going to get hell for this from some members of this board but honestly I can't think of how literature has helped me in my adult life. I'm from the STEM background so naturally biased.

And I can't think of many ways STEM classed have helped me in my adult life, aside from basic math, but that was over in high school, so it goes both ways .

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

And I can't think of many ways STEM classed have helped me in my adult life, aside from basic math, but that was over in high school, so it goes both ways .

Heh, well played.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by chadritt

Im just trying to figure out when it stopped being ok to come over. Was it when the white people came over with diseases and weapons to kill everyone? Was it when they came over and organized crime started to run rampant? Was it when they fled Europe because the Jews started to not be welcome there? Or was it when it became brown people coming over?

I think you're trying too hard. It became an issue the day Jon was born and #1 became all that mattered.

I just want to know when this golden age was, because as far as I can tell from Jon it's been in decline for decades. I guess Apomatox Courthouse was a long time ago.

Jon is the disillusioned nationalist in Germany in the 1930s. Jon is the "Real American" sharpening his blade. Jon is the Serb commander cleansing his territory from the invaders. Jon is the consequence of ignorance.

[Dutch]

Godwins law ftw!

[gstelmack]

I am sorry, but where has Jon said "no one else should ever be allowed into this country?"

Jon is railing on illegal immigration, have I missed the post where he has railed on any legal immigrants?

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You really think this is a one-sided political issue? That Democrats wouldn't love to pass a bill with amnesty provisions for people that conveniently vote heavily in their favor?

Um....

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

You see this as something other than Pelosi & Reid taking advantage of the GOP-manufactured crisis to advance their own immigration agenda?

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The real issue comes down to whether or not we want to spend immense amount of resources (money!) to care for people coming from 3rd world countries who offer nothing in return.

Our entire agriculture industry and restaurant business relies on cheap immigrant (often illegal) labor. Just to name two examples, off the bat.

Originally Posted by Dutch

Hell, I'm no expert, but the top level overview would be something like this: Employ people and purchase materials to guard the entire southern border. I would do so until the projections of illegal aliens drops to a trickle.

You may not be an expert, given that probably around 40% of illegal immigrants don't use our southern border, I'd say it's not an effective solution. In fact, given how much money it would cost, and how little it would solve the "problem", it looks like you're proposing another government boondoggle. I thought you were against those?

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

There's where we disagree on a fundamental point: this nation has been in severe decline for decades, and the cultural erosion caused by obscenely excessive immigration is part of that.

Given the difference in overall population, it's likely that immigration levels in the decades before WWI were much higher as a percentage of overall population.

I'm going to assume you don't have a problem with the ethnicities of this "first immigration wave" who, after all, survived the Great Depression, likely fought in WWII, and formed part of the "Greatest Generation", I think it's same to assume that your issue is with the ethnicities of those in the later waves, correct?

Originally Posted by Dutch

Sounds good, but the reality is that there will never be peace until Israel is destroyed.

There will be no peace in Israel, Gaza & the West Bank until those areas are no longer populated. This will either happen through forcible relocation of both sides, or as the result of a catastrophic nuclear or biologic event. That's the reality of the situation. I'm not advocating for this to happen, btw. I just think that's the reality.

Originally Posted by Dutch

Godwins law ftw!

Two demerits to Pilotman!

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

I am sorry, but where has Jon said "no one else should ever be allowed into this country?"

Jon is railing on illegal immigration, have I missed the post where he has railed on any legal immigrants?

Well, here's what he said:

this nation has been in severe decline for decades, and the cultural erosion caused by obscenely excessive immigration is part of that.

Jon does differentiate between legal and illegal immigration, but make no mistake that he has issues with both.

[JPhillips]

There's a report out today that the second country that spied on Kerry phone calls was Russia and that Israel and Russia share this intelligence. I'm skeptical now, but if that proves true it should be a huge deal. I'm fine with Israel spying, hell I'm sure we do it right back, but sharing intelligence with Putin is a hostile act that shouldn't go unnoticed.

[sterlingice]

I've never been a big Israel sympathizer and think we've gone out of our way on countless occasions in a way that we wouldn't for any other ally with them. Heck, I still don't understand a lot of why we do what we do with regards to them and why they are so damned special as an ally.

However, this almost smells like a classic smear campaign: we get little snippets like this and the narrative about the recent Gaza violence hasn't been a 180 from where it normally is but it's like, I dunno, does the metaphor break down if I say the coverage is about 120 degrees away from normal despite the acts not being that much different than in the past?

It makes me ask "who stands to gain from weaker Israel-US ties?" and I'm not talking about players in the Middle East but in the rest of the world or in business.

SI

[molson]

I'm pretty sure if any of us lived the life of an Israeli or Palestinian, we'd probably hate the other side with a passion of a thousand suns and be sincerely bewildered about why people thought we were in the wrong at all.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm pretty sure if any of us lived the life of an Israeli or Palestinian, we'd probably hate the other side with a passion of a thousand suns and be sincerely bewildered about why people thought we were in the wrong at all.

Exactly. Which is why it isn't going to change any time soon.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Um....
Our entire agriculture industry and restaurant business relies on cheap immigrant (often illegal) labor. Just to name two examples, off the bat.

One minor quibble with that statement from my own perspective, and that's the word cheap. I've said so much that as an employer running a dairy farm I fit into this category. Only one of my employees is not from south of the border and while all my foreign employees have provided the proper documentation to work here, I can bet that not a single one holds valid documentation.

With that out of the way, I'd say my employees are doing just as well in terms of compensation that our local factories. For me, it's not a matter of hiring these people cheap. But a lot of these people come from their own farms and ranches in their native country. Or at least a rural area. They've handled and been around animals their whole life. It was different even a generation ago when a good chunk of people at least had some connection to farming/animals.

With immigrants, you still get what you pay for. The total yearly compensation for my lowest employee with no experience will still be $30K+ which may not sound like a ton but when you consider that we provide free housing, utilities, satellite, internet, it doesn't necessarily come out that bad for them when you consider cost of living in our area. Put it this way, I wouldn't blink at all at a minimum wage increase, even though farmers tend to get exemptions to that.

Of course there are people that will pay their immigrants slave wages (restaurants are probably much more guilty of this than farms IMO). And there is the balance of people demanding cheap food and producing said food as cheap as possible.

Anyway, I totally got the point you are trying to make I just wanted to expand on it some

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm pretty sure if any of us lived the life of an Israeli or Palestinian, we'd probably hate the other side with a passion of a thousand suns and be sincerely bewildered about why people thought we were in the wrong at all.

Maybe it's the Monday talking but what does that have to do with what I posted (other than that it involved Israel)?

SI

[molson]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Maybe it's the Monday talking but what does that have to do with what I posted (other than that it involved Israel)?

SI

I didn't quote your post in my response, I was more responding to the general moral judgments being thrown out at both sides. It's OK for us to have a opinions on who's more wrong of whatever, I just had this thought that it was so easy for us to chime in when when our security isn't constantly threatened and we haven't lived their lives. Both sides are only in the position to have to make these decisions because of all the shit that's happened to them. There's this idea that "both sides are wrong", but if we were living those lives, we'd probably make the same decisions.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Given the difference in overall population, it's likely that immigration levels in the decades before WWI were much higher as a percentage of overall population.

My chart is a tad dated (goes through 2006) but I believe you'll see roughly where I mentioned the excessive immigration occurring.



The doubling occurred between 1970 - 1990, effectively doubled again between 1990-2010. That's a 400 percent increased in 40 years. And does not include at least 9 million undocumented immigrants, over half of which were believed to be from Mexico specifically.

Total population rate of growth between 1970-1990 was between 20-25 percent. Rate of growth between 1990-2010 was right at 25 percent. Rate of growth between 1970-2010 was right around 50 percent.

I'm going to assume you don't have a problem with the ethnicities of this "first immigration wave" who, after all, survived the Great Depression, likely fought in WWII, and formed part of the "Greatest Generation", I think it's same to assume that your issue is with the ethnicities of those in the later waves, correct?

Ethnicity (or simple nationality) is largely irrelevant, except that it plays a role in assimilation.

via http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_53.htm

Just as ... first-generation Mexican immigrants display a rate of assimilation much slower than that of other current or historical groups, foreign-born children of Mexican immigrants are less assimilated than the foreign-born children of immigrants born in other countries

Ethnicity/nation of origin also factors into ILLEGAL immigration numbers. 7 out of 10 are from just three countries. If Canadians were leading the pack then you can bet your last dollar I'd be aiming cannons at the northern border too ... but they aren't.

via Frequently Requested Statistics on Immigrants and Immigration in the United States | migrationpolicy.org

According to DHS estimates, about 8.9 million unauthorized immigrants in 2011 were born in North America (which includes Mexico, Central America, the Caribbean, and Canada). About 1.3 million were from Asia, 800,000 from South America, 300,000 from Europe, and 200,000 from the remaining parts of the world. Mexico (59 percent), El Salvador (6 percent), and Guatemala (5 percent) were the top three countries of birth of the unauthorized immigrant population.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I'm going to assume you don't have a problem with the ethnicities of this "first immigration wave" who, after all, survived the Great Depression, likely fought in WWII, and formed part of the "Greatest Generation", I think it's same to assume that your issue is with the ethnicities of those in the later waves, correct?

Like I said earlier, I don't think it's about ethnicity as much about culture. Many of those early immigration waves assimilated and also added positively to the country. Many had specialized skills that were valuable.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Ethnicity (or simple nationality) is largely irrelevant, except that it plays a role in assimilation.

I think you'd find that to be the case with any group these days, not just Hispanic people. The world culture doesn't demand assimilation the way it did in the not-too-distant past.

There are good things and bad things about this trend. Good in that we are more accepting of diversity and take away fewer freedoms in supporting the status quo. Bad in that we're encouraging more insular experiences and segregation within the country.

There needs to be a balance. Without a balance of assimilation and freedom, we don't get the benefit of expanding our cultural horizons.

I guarantee you, though, if you look at any group that has immigrated in large quantities during our country's history, you would see the same worries about ruining our country. A lot has been written about the post-Civil-War mass immigration from Ireland. Some really nasty stuff went on. And, really, the primary objections to Irish immigration sound so much like your objections today. Those types of objections are what caused the enaction of immigration quotas back in the 1920s.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

ood in that we are more accepting of diversity and take away fewer freedoms in supporting the status quo.

We disagree on the good/bad of that. On it's best days I consider diversity as an annoyance. I am, after all, an authoritarian (and given the chance I'd be an enlightened despot in a nanosecond).