The Obama Presidency - 2008 & 2012

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by molson

Take the politics out of it for a minute. Don't you think the issue with the unattended migrant children is a pretty huge deal? Or somewhere between that and crisis? It does sound like you're minimizing the situation for your own political reasons. Even Obama seems to be hugely concerned with this and he's certainly not motivated by page views. It's just a weird tone. And again, you're sparring with JIMGA here but I think you guys are on the same page that this situation is not a crisis (he just thinks its actually a good thing that children are living like this.)

Edit: It's just a little confusing - I'm used to Democrats blaming Republicans for the immigration issues (and vice versa), but not anyone just claiming that the issue is not a crisis. Is that the new strategy? It is consistent with the blue states' governors refusing to help and house any of these children. If it's not a crisis or a big problem, why should they get involved?

That's how I try to approach issues, look at the issue itself rather than look at which party supports which position.

This is a really difficult problem. And we are a nation that has reaped tremendous reward from mass immigration. We have a set of laws and a founding philosophy that all men are created equal.

We are also an aging population. Not quite as bad as what China is facing these days from its forced reproduction policies, but we'd be close to ZPG without immigration.

In theory, we should welcome these children and treat them as our own.

However, I am also a conservative when it comes to the budget. I see tremendous problems down the road with continued deficit spending. And this is an expensive problem.

I think the solution lies in requiring service in return for government aid. We need to find some way to make all Americans (and all immigrants) feel as if they are part of America. Service does this. But how do you do this without invoking the slavery argument? How do you encourage participation without making people feel that they can never get ahead?

Plus, the worries about disease and security and violence are real.

This may seem like a simple issue about borders and refugees, but it's really one of the more complex issues of our time and it goes to the heart of what it means to participate in a democracy.

[JPhillips]

Disease isn't much of a worry. Central American countries have very high vaccination rates.

[ISiddiqui]

They may be more concerned of disease from us .

[JPhillips]

I read somewhere that Honduras has a higher vaccination rate for measles than Texas.

Thanks Jenny McCarthy.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Disease isn't much of a worry. Central American countries have very high vaccination rates.

http://www.oig.dhs.gov/assets/Mgmt/2...n_Ali_Chil.pdf

I think we need to be realistic about neither panicking about nor ignoring concerns.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

As I mentioned, the difference seems to in what constitutes the "crisis".

Yep.

[JPhillips]

TB is a real concern, but chicken pox for children isn't that big of a deal. I have no doubt that health standards aren't great, but they aren't coming full of life threatening diseases.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by molson

Don't you think the issue with the unattended migrant children is a pretty huge deal?

Yes.

Everything else is you (and Jon, for that matter), over-thinking my motivations here.

Solving the immediate problem should be a relatively simple matter of applying more resources where necessary. Solving the long-term systemic problem is considerably more complex, but I wouldn't call that a crisis-level issue.

Solving the immediate problem should be relatively straightforward, but it's not because the politicians are playing politics with it. Which leads me to believe that the politicians, taken as a whole, are more interested in gaining advantage from this situation than actually solving it. And the media & activists have jumped on the bandwagon.

So, it's a "crisis", but not a crisis, if that makes sense.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If you're a sovereign nation, you defend your borders. Period. End of discussion.

The history of diaspora suggests this issue is a bit more complex than your Jon Doctrine.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

The history of diaspora suggests this issue is a bit more complex than your Jon Doctrine.

The only real way to protect your border is to have such a shitty country that nobody wants to enter.

[ISiddiqui]

And Jon is dedicated to make that happen!

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

And Jon is dedicated to make that happen!

I think Jon would be right at home in a universe that is a hybrid of Daleks and the Necromongers.

[Warhammer]

The issue to me is manufactured. We have plenty of laws on the books to combat illegal immigration. However, they are not enforced.

The problem I have with the immigrants is who pays for it? Who raises them? Who makes sure they become productive members of society? If we let them in, does this mean we have to let the parents in as well? What do they bring to our society?

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by lungs

The only real way to protect your border is to have such a shitty country that nobody wants to enter.

obama has us on that road...

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

We've been "invaded by thousands of leeches" yearly for decades, but somehow it is only called a "crisis" whenever the GOP needs some additional lift for fundraising activities or votes for elections.

I can't believe you of all people can't see the cynicism behind this. Given that it's a Friday I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt but I expect better from you after the weekend.

You really think this is a one-sided political issue? That Democrats wouldn't love to pass a bill with amnesty provisions for people that conveniently vote heavily in their favor?

[RainMaker]

The disease stories are also just useless fodder in the debate to scare people. The real issue comes down to whether or not we want to spend immense amount of resources (money!) to care for people coming from 3rd world countries who offer nothing in return.

And that's a harsh way of putting it, but that's what this boils down to. Do you want a lot of your tax dollars being spent to support anyone from a 3rd world country who wants to setup shop here? Do you want a larger portion of your country turning into the type of communities these immigrants have created over the last few decades?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Do you want a larger portion of your country turning into the type of communities these immigrants have created over the last few decades?

Fuck Little Italy.

[Dutch]

Little Italy is great. We couldn't possibly support all of Italy though. (...and nobody is making an argument against legal immigration)

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I'm going to say "birth."

Are you talking about Jon or Flere?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The real issue comes down to whether or not we want to spend immense amount of resources (money!) to care for people coming from 3rd world countries who offer nothing in return.

I might quibble with "immense" and "nothing vs little" but its a key question to be answered.

The other question we all have to ask ourselves as a check -- if these kids were white, fleeing Europe because of a famine, war or other like causes. Would we reject them? Deep down, I think the answer is no, there would be more sympathy and they would be accepted.

My stance is immigration is definitely needed. We do want to be selective and encourage the highly educated, the rich etc. to come over. We don't want 3rd world orphaned kids coming over but there should be some compassion to resolve and mitigate the issue at the source.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Edward64

The other question we all have to ask ourselves as a check -- if these kids were white, fleeing Europe because of a famine, war or other like causes. Would we reject them? Deep down, I think the answer is no, there would be more sympathy and they would be accepted.

Ahhhh, racism, grinds most discussions to a halt...redirects...and arguing over stupid shit like skin color ensues. Thanks, but no thanks. I'm really not interested in hearing your put words into our politicians mouths that suggest they would say, "I can't act on illegal immigration so long as I *suspect* illegal immigration from Europe would be accepted by myself."

No. Stop muddying the waters with the easy, simplistic, overused and overblown, race card. It's 2014. We all get that it exists, but unless there is something specific that leads you to believe our fairly diverse government is up to something, just stop. If we were so racist against "the brown people" the "brown people" wouldn't be trying to flood into our country. It's a non-issue to them because it's a non-issue. However, what is back on point is that this is about American citizens that have a right to our tax dollars (black, brown, white, etc.) and non-US citizens that do not (black, brown, white, etc.).

My stance is immigration is definitely needed. We do want to be selective and encourage the highly educated, the rich etc. to come over. We don't want 3rd world orphaned kids coming over but there should be some compassion to resolve and mitigate the issue at the source.

It's called LEGAL IMMIGRATION. It exists, it's regulated, and it works for us perfectly. Learn about it, embrace it, fight for it, and if necessary, reform it, but please stop supporting the circumvention of it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Edward64

The other question we all have to ask ourselves as a check -- if these kids were white, fleeing Europe because of a famine, war or other like causes.

Are they entering legally? Or are they behaving like cockroaches?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Dutch

It's 2014. We all get that it exists, but unless there is something specific that leads you to believe our fairly diverse government is up to something, just stop.

Our diverse government is not up to something as a collective whole. But there are segments with differing thoughts on this that we can and should question (democrat and republican).

Let's use Rick Perry as an example. Would he be reacting this way if it was white kids coming across the border?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Are they entering legally? Or are they behaving like cockroaches?

No, illegally.

I don't view the kids behaving as cockroaches.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Edward64

No, illegally.

Then fuck 'em. I'd happily man the same .50 caliber solution if various Scandanavians were invading via the Canadian border.

I don't view the kids behaving as cockroaches.

True. Cockroaches are less of a drain on society & the economy.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Dutch

It's called LEGAL IMMIGRATION. It exists, it's regulated, and it works for us perfectly. Learn about it, embrace it, fight for it, and if necessary, reform it, but please stop supporting the circumvention of it.

You realize ASYLUM for refugees exists as well, right? Where I live in Georgia there is a decent amount of refugees from Central Africa (half the town of Clarkston is made up of refugees, and that isn't hyperbole), people who were fleeing violence and torture in their homelands and the United States offered them asylum. It is not that much different than these children fleeing violence in Central America.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

It is not that much different than these children fleeing violence in Central America.

Except, you know, the whole invading across the border en masse thing.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Our diverse government is not up to something as a collective whole. But there are segments with differing thoughts on this that we can and should question (democrat and republican).

Let's use Rick Perry as an example. Would he be reacting this way if it was white kids coming across the border?

Who cares. Do you want to solve this issue or not? That's all I care about. I do. I care about it now, I cared about it under President Bush, under President Clinton, and Under President Bush Sr.

But you are right to some degree, the whole lot of them ask the same stupid questions like, "How would {Rick Perry} react if it were white people coming in from Siberia?" And my response is the same to all of them, "It doesn't matter because that's a stupid fucking question. Now which one of you pussies is going to do something about it? ".

[ISiddiqui]

Drug cartels engaging in warfare against each other within countries has the same effect on people living there. They flee the warfare.

And, of course, we do have refugees who were persecuted for speaking out against their governments, and not due to any invasions by anyone.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

You realize ASYLUM for refugees exists as well, right? Where I live in Georgia there is a decent amount of refugees from Central Africa (half the town of Clarkston is made up of refugees, and that isn't hyperbole), people who were fleeing violence and torture in their homelands and the United States offered them asylum. It is not that much different than these children fleeing violence in Central America.

Not totally brushed up on Asylum in America. However, there are basic similarities to LEGAL IMMIGRATION that ASYLUM refugees have in common. Such as, their legal status to be in America. Back to you, you realize ASYLUM for refugees and ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION are legally different, right?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Who cares. Do you want to solve this issue or not? That's all I care about. I do. I care about it now, I cared about it under President Bush, under President Clinton, and Under President Bush Sr.

But you are right to some degree, the whole lot of them ask the same stupid questions like, "How would {Rick Perry} react if it were white people coming in from Siberia?" And my response is the same to all of them, "It doesn't matter because that's a stupid fucking question. Now which one of you pussies is going to do something about it? ".

Agreed, there's only such much that can be discussed if someone is just asking questions. Refresh my memory? What would you do about it?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Drug cartels engaging in warfare against each other within countries has the same effect on people living there. They flee the warfare.

And, of course, we do have refugees who were persecuted for speaking out against their governments, and not due to any invasions by anyone.

But that's not really the topic here, is it? All I'm seeing is another excuse to try to justify the illegal assault on the U.S. by a wave of invaders.

I don't really give a flying fuck whether they're 3 or 33 or 63, there's zero excuse for allowing it, zero excuse for sticking the taxpayers with the dead weight, and zero excuse for not having the courage to defends our fucking borders.

And those who excuse this bullshit are just as big a threat to our sovereignty, our existence, and a way of life worth having as the criminals they support.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Are they entering legally? Or are they behaving like cockroaches?

Just ones from Prague.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Agreed, there's only such much that can be discussed if someone is just asking questions. Refresh my memory? What would you do about it?

Hell, I'm no expert, but the top level overview would be something like this: Employ people and purchase materials to guard the entire southern border. I would do so until the projections of illegal aliens drops to a trickle.

If the total # of ASYLUM entrants is around 100,000 per year (guessing) and the total number of LEGAL IMMIGRANTS is around 1,000,000 (guessing) per year, then until we get to around 50,000 or less ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS per year, we keep spending until the job is done.

Fair?

I think it's fair to ask for your solution now.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Hell, I'm no expert, but the top level overview would be something like this: Employ people and purchase materials to guard the entire southern border. I would do so until the projections of illegal aliens drops to a trickle.

If the total # of ASYLUM entrants is around 100,000 per year (guessing) and the total number of LEGAL IMMIGRANTS is around 1,000,000 (guessing) per year, then until we get to around 50,000 or less ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS per year, we keep spending until the job is done.

Fair?

I think it's fair to ask for your solution now.

Posted back in 7/25.

I kinda agree that Obama has been absent. He wants comprehensive immigration reform and I'm good with that but the problem is immediate, not 6-12 months in the future.

Having National Guard intercept before they come into the US and tweaking the law to expedite seems like a no brainer to me. For the ones already in, send them back and help their government setup temporary shelters, orphanages ... whatever. Essentially give them some money.

[Dutch]

Oh yeah, I saw that and liked that response (didn't remember it was you though). You may have seen this one from me earlier as well.

Originally Posted by Posted on 14 July 14

Illegal Immigration Crisis:

Sorry, slightly off-topic, but for the record, I am in favor of the Obama plan requesting $3.7B to shut off the current illegal entry flood gates. The plan calls for some crazy ridiculous funding like $1.6B to house and feed illegals temporarily and $300M to tell Central America to stop (??) but overall, it's a start. Particularly the part where he's willing to admit that we are clearly understaffed at the border.

Hopefully this request doesn't die.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Employ people and purchase materials to guard the entire southern border.

They're already employed, and trained. We can start with the 500 or so majors that are about to be RIF'ed.

Materials? Unless there's a shortage of 5.56x45 or 7.62x51, we've got most of what we need already.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

Just ones from Prague.

Thanks. This topic needs a laugh or two every now and then. Maybe even a complete transformation.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Then fuck 'em. I'd happily man the same .50 caliber solution if various Scandanavians were invading via the Canadian border.



True. Cockroaches are less of a drain on society & the economy.

Are you actually suggesting killing everyone who crosses the border illegally?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

They're already employed, and trained. We can start with the 500 or so majors that are about to be RIF'ed.

Materials? Unless there's a shortage of 5.56x45 or 7.62x51, we've got most of what we need already.

I don't want a shooting gallery, although I have thought that very clear boundaries with a tougher level of difficulty to cross would make the attempt more obviously criminal and impossible for kids without adult supervision.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Are you actually suggesting killing everyone who crosses the border illegally?

It's Jon - are you actually surprised. He'd probably seriously suggest killing somewhere north of 75% of the legal citizens of this country if given the opportunity to.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Are you actually suggesting killing everyone who crosses the border illegally?

Only those who get through the minefields & aren't taking out by the drones patrolling overhead.

Those already in the country illegally should get 30 days notice to be gone before hunting licenses are issued. Every legal resident ought to be paid a bounty for every one of the bastards they bag, tag & bring in.

[NobodyHere]

You're adorable

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Then fuck 'em. I'd happily man the same .50 caliber solution if various Scandanavians were invading via the Canadian border.

Said Jesus.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Little Italy is great. We couldn't possibly support all of Italy though. (...and nobody is making an argument against legal immigration)

My point is that today's immigrant communities are assimilating at roughly the same rate as past immigrant communities. The first generation is largely unassimilated, the second is half/half and by the third generation they are basically completely assimilated. For the bulk of immigrants that's how it has always worked.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Only those who get through the minefields & aren't taking out by the drones patrolling overhead.

Those already in the country illegally should get 30 days notice to be gone before hunting licenses are issued. Every legal resident ought to be paid a bounty for every one of the bastards they bag, tag & bring in.

You sir, are a fucking asshole.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

You're adorable

The scary part is, he's already reproduced.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

The other question we all have to ask ourselves as a check -- if these kids were white, fleeing Europe because of a famine, war or other like causes. Would we reject them? Deep down, I think the answer is no, there would be more sympathy and they would be accepted.

Is it because of their skin color though? Or the culture? I think if there was a famine or war and many Koreans came over to this country, there wouldn't be a ton of backlash.

I'd argue that the culture plays a much larger role in whether we are accepting of immigrants or not. Unfortunately, hispanics in this country commit crimes at a higher rate, have lower levels of education, and reproduce at a higher frequency.

I think there is a big difference in not wanting a race to enter the country as opposed to not wanting a culture.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

You sir, are a fucking asshole.

{shrug}

Better an asshole with a country than one that surrenders without putting up a fight.

You honestly haven't the foggiest how readily I'd depopulate the planet to a fraction of its current occupancy, that I'd bat nary an eyelash to defend my home against invasion (as well as an occupying force) should be absolutely no surprise whatsoever.

It that bothers you somehow, well, I'll make a note to add that info its proper slot on the grand list of stuff in my life. Fair warning though, might be a while before I get around to addressing it. Priorities, you understand.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

{shrug}

Better an asshole with a country than one that surrenders without putting up a fight.

You honestly haven't the foggiest how readily I'd depopulate the planet to a fraction of its current occupancy, that I'd bat nary an eyelash to defend my home against invasion (as well as an occupying force) should be absolutely no surprise whatsoever.

It that bothers you somehow, well, I'll make a note to add that info its proper slot on the grand list of stuff in my life. Fair warning though, might be a while before I get around to addressing it. Priorities, you understand.

The world must be such a scary scary place to you in order to engender this level of fear, defensiveness, hostility, and anger.

I'm sorry - I actually pity you (although I'm sure you don't care and will view that as a sign of my weakness, etc.). I wish it wasn't that way for you.