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View Poll Results: How is Obama doing? (poll started 6/6) | |||
Great - above my expectations | 18 | 6.87% | |
Good - met most of my expectations | 66 | 25.19% | |
Average - so so, disappointed a little | 64 | 24.43% | |
Bad - sold us out | 101 | 38.55% | |
Trout - don't know yet | 13 | 4.96% | |
Voters: 262. You may not vote on this poll |
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Thread Tools |
06-16-2009, 10:51 AM | #2251 | |
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you forgot to add "that you voted to start and then continue"
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06-16-2009, 10:56 AM | #2252 |
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I know you're both intentionally exagerating for effect, but all you're really criticizing is people's OPINIONS that one should support the president in a time of war. I don't have that opinion myself, but that's just a free speech opinion like any other. It's a little ironic to label someone else's expression of free spreech (which includes the right to criticize others for speaking) as advocating charges for "treason".
Last edited by molson : 06-16-2009 at 10:58 AM. |
06-16-2009, 11:01 AM | #2253 |
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No, I'm commenting on very specific charges of treasonous behavior leveled by some in the GOP for the same things they are doing now.
I'm fine with voting against a funding bill or speaking out on the Iranian crisis, but I'd at least like it to be recognized that some of the same people that are supporting these actions now were calling them treasonous as recently as during the election campaign.
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06-16-2009, 11:08 AM | #2254 | |
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Someone said that people that criticized Bush should be charged with treason? I didn't realize that. I mean, EVERY conceivable sentiment has been stated on some wacky blog, but legitimate people were calling for treason charges? |
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06-16-2009, 11:10 AM | #2255 | |
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Can you name someone that did that both of those things? (including calling for treason charges) This "these are the same people" argument is hugely popular around here right now and I think it's totally misleading. I could say, "These Obama supporters are the same people that think Bush planned 9/11, so their opinions can't be taken seriously". I could definitely find Obama supporters on the internet that think Bush planned 9/11, but that doesn't say anything at all about Obama supoprters that don't. Last edited by molson : 06-16-2009 at 11:11 AM. |
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06-16-2009, 11:54 AM | #2256 | |
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I'd agree if I said all of the GOP, but I specifically said, "some of the same". I don't think the entirety of Republicans or conservatives or whatever group you want to define has the same opinion. However, just go back through the debates on war spending in 2007/2008 or McCain and Palin's criticisms of Obama for voting against funding the troops or the attacks on Kerry for the same issue or calls for bringing back the sedition act during the Iraq war or etc... I'm not trying to tar all Republicans, especially considering that a number of prominent GOPers, including Lugar and Nicholas Burns, have been very responsible about Iran, but when I see McCain or Cantor bitching about Obama's Iran policy or see the entire GOP plan to vote against troop funding I'd really like the media to point out that these same actions were considered treasonous and unamerican by many of the same elected officials as recently as last year. For me it's a beginning to get past a pro-American/anti-American debate and hopefully recognizing that their are often legitimate reasons for debate that get silenced by cries of treason. That applies to both parties, btw.
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06-16-2009, 04:14 PM | #2257 | |
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You can't tell me that you missed that party calling for treason charges on the New York Times for reporting on illegal wiretapping? |
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06-16-2009, 04:23 PM | #2258 | |
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They're all goofballs if they used that word, and certainly hypocrites if they criticize Obama now. I never heard them say that, but I don't watch FoxNews. It just sounded like one of those exagerations that can get grouped in with fact (like that Dick Cheney stated there was a connection between Iraq and Al-Qaeda), but if people were really saying that, then ya. Last edited by molson : 06-16-2009 at 04:30 PM. |
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06-16-2009, 04:28 PM | #2259 | |
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There was a LOT of discussion about various things being treason. Most of the GOP talking heads threw that word around a bunch. I'm pretty sure I remember Obama being called treasonous because he said The Surge wouldn't work which supposedly was tantamount to giving aid to the enemy. |
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06-17-2009, 08:53 AM | #2260 | ||
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Quote:
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I'm going to go out on a limb and say it wasn't an exaggeration. |
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06-17-2009, 09:13 AM | #2261 |
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Oops, I mean to say the myth that Cheney "lied" about there being a link between 9/11 and Iraq. That came up a few pages back, and it was response to accuasations of "lying" when Cheney specifically said that this was something that some foreign government had said. Obviously Al-Qaeda had a presence in Iraq and was sheltered there (no different than many middle-eastern countries) Misleading more than a "lie". It just annoys me when that word is thrown around with recklessness, because it's a very serious allegation for a government official and it's rarely backed up, especially in this context.
Last edited by molson : 06-17-2009 at 09:16 AM. |
06-17-2009, 09:17 AM | #2262 |
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Lie is a difficult word. If you don't seek out the truth, but can say things with "plausible deniability," is that lie? Is it one in spirit?
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06-17-2009, 09:32 AM | #2263 | |
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That's closer to a lie, I think. But I know it's not a lie if you say something, and through errors of people that work for you and lies of outside people, it turns out not to be true. People throw around all the time that the Bush administration lied to start a war. That's impeachable, criminal, and I've never seen any evidence of it, and nobody credible has ever seriously contended it, beyond spirited speculation. That doesn't mean it's not true - we don't know everything that goes on behind the scenes. I just don't think we know enough for those kinds statements of "lies" to be thrown around like facts, and not be subject to that clarification that it's just speculation. Nobody did that just now, though, I don't know what I'm rambling about. Last edited by molson : 06-17-2009 at 09:35 AM. |
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06-17-2009, 09:38 AM | #2264 |
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While Cheney was very careful to not say Iraq was linked to 9/11, I still argue that in the run-up to the Iraqi invasion he and the administration did everything they could to link Iraq to Al-Qaeda in an attempt to get the public to link Iraq to 9/11. This article, from 2003, gives some of the context of the time.
This is an old, old political ploy. In order to get the public to believe A = C, tell them that A is like B and B is like C, so therefore A = C. Plus, they had the benefit of a public that was happy to believe that Hussein could be a co-conspirator in 9/11, a notion the public has (hopefully) been disabused of now. Not to mention that the Iraq-Al Qaeda link itself was way, way overblown, especially by Cheney. |
06-17-2009, 09:42 AM | #2265 | |
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Every single piece of evidence they cited to justify invading Iraq has since been found to be wrong, hugely misunderstood, or simply based only on speculation. As I've said before in the Iraq threads, the Bush Administration may have not lied to start the war (lied outright) but they either a) bent the evidence as far as it would go without breaking to build a case or b) were so vastly incompetent so as not to be able to discern good evidence from bad evidence. In my opinion, it's not criminal by the letter, but it's certainly criminal in spirit. |
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06-17-2009, 10:47 AM | #2266 | |
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Despite this being from the Christian Science Monitor I found it to be the best detailed of the articles out at this point.
Obama’s five-prong plan to oversee financial industry | csmonitor.com Quote:
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06-17-2009, 11:38 AM | #2267 | |
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From Huffington POst live blog on Iran:
Quote:
HA!
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06-17-2009, 03:00 PM | #2268 |
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I'd like to see Hoekstra hit with a police baton a few times.
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06-17-2009, 03:35 PM | #2269 | |
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If it's not a lie, then it's incompetence and callousness toward fellow American soldiers. I know he gets ribbed on for being dumb, but I don't think he's dumb enough to really believe that bullshit intelligence that was being thrown around and laughed at by most people. Therefore I believe he simply lied. I just can't put him in the utterly stupid camp. |
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06-17-2009, 03:39 PM | #2270 | |
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06-17-2009, 09:03 PM | #2271 | |
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Ok, we've reached my first "I'm now pissed at the new President moment". Granted, I realize that my wishes are for a draconian banking system where if you want to loan or claim to have money, you have to actually have, you know, money. Then, again I also wanted Uncle Sam to buy up the hemorrhaging banks, take out the anti-trust stick, and spin off the parts for a profit after holding them for a few years. That said, I realize these measures were never going to happen. But I thought it was reasonable to expect some pretty strong regulations to keep us from getting close to this mess again (and, I realize, we'd get into another different mess but at least it wouldn't be this one). Instead, we get this sick joke- rather than concrete rules and regulations that can't be broken, we instead remove one regulatory body, add one, and strengthen one. You know, those regulatory bodies that were ignored and/or ienpt enough to let this happen in the first place because you're pitting underpaid government workers against their former coworkers who were hired away for 3-10X their wage to show companies how to beat the system. Oh, and I'm really impressed that we are now requiring companies to take on a whopping 5% of the credit risk when they bundle exotic crap. When you're selling crap at an infinity-based markup, what's 5% in not even cash but credit? SI
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06-17-2009, 09:21 PM | #2272 | |
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TX Rep John Culberson also sees the similarities between the GOP and the Iranians:
Quote:
This mockery of Hoekstra is excellent: http://search.twitter.com/search?q=petehoekstra
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06-17-2009, 09:22 PM | #2273 | |
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Once they gave them the money with no strings attached there was no hope of strong regulations. Even these weak reforms will be significantly watered down by Congress.
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06-17-2009, 09:29 PM | #2274 |
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Hell, they're weak out of the box. How do you water down... water?
SI
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06-17-2009, 09:33 PM | #2275 |
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Obama is too pussy to pass through any of the tough stuff. He'll do the same with health care by watering it down. Bush had really stupid ideas, but at least he had the guts to push them through and not give a shit what people think.
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06-17-2009, 09:52 PM | #2276 | |
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At the end of the day, I'd rather have style much more than the other. A moron ramming through horrible ideas is still much worse than wishy-washy nothing. However, I'd argue that we are in a time of larger issues with less of a margin of error where doing nothing is also harmful. SI
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06-18-2009, 01:40 PM | #2277 | |
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Pussy enough? I doubt it but it's really beside the point. There are many powerful (read moneyed) interests that have skin in this game, and who also can have a major effect on the way that any given issue is portrayed. That's a tough status quo for anyone to budge. While personally I would prefer major sweeping changes on a number of fronts, I'll be impressed with some changes that will ensure incremental yet steady movement. I'm probably a pussy though.
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We have always been at war with Eastasia. Last edited by path12 : 06-18-2009 at 01:41 PM. |
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06-19-2009, 12:35 AM | #2278 | |
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Pete Hoekstra has become an internet meme. Some of these are great link |
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06-19-2009, 04:27 AM | #2279 |
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Shit some of those are funny.
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06-19-2009, 04:29 AM | #2280 | |
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Things were royally fucked up and people voted him in power to fix it. Not to pussy foot around and appease everyone. The new financial regulations are half-assed just like the health care reform. He has heavy majorities in Congress thanks to people who voted for people to fix the mess. It's as good a time as any to pass major health care reform, but instead he's too worried about losing a couple approval points or upsetting a lobbying group. Giving speeches is cute and all but maybe it's time to actually accomplish something now. Last edited by RainMaker : 06-19-2009 at 04:34 AM. |
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06-19-2009, 12:39 PM | #2281 | ||
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Quote:
and Fareed's intro in the article: Quote:
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06-19-2009, 12:52 PM | #2282 | |
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I think you're getting mixed up on what Obama can accomplish on his own and whether or not Congress has any nads. And Harry Reid appears to have little or none. IMO what needs to happen is for the Congressional leadership to say to the Republicans "Fine. You want to filibuster? Go for it." Make them stand up and rail about the crazy they've become for days on end. I don't think it'll get them lower than the 25% approval they currently have (and really, is there much precedence for a party going so far off the rails in the recent past?) because there will always be the true believers, but I'd be willing to bet that forcing them to filibuster will help advance the Dem agenda rather than hurt it in the long run. Of course, you've also got that little problem of the members in charge of health reform being bought and paid for by the insurance companies/big Pharma, but that's a whole other issue. And the Blue Dogs, etc, etc. So I'd take issue with your premise that it's all pussyfooting around/appeasement. Unfortunately, changing a broken system isn't something that will happen all at once, as much as we might wish it could. It's not like Obama is fuckin' Gandalf, after all.
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06-19-2009, 01:04 PM | #2283 |
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Yeah, I was hoping to see at least one filibuster this time around.
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06-19-2009, 01:09 PM | #2284 |
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Some of you actually think Obama is going to significantly change any of our systems and/or even improve your lives? For your own sanity I hope not.
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06-19-2009, 01:14 PM | #2285 | |
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Most conservatives would love to see that as well. At some point, when you have a strong majority in both houses, you need to start taking a stand and passing some legislation that you believe is best for the country rather than what polls well. |
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06-19-2009, 01:18 PM | #2286 |
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The interesting thing with that is that issues like DADT and health care do poll well for the Dems.
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06-19-2009, 02:06 PM | #2287 | |
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Quote:
Depends on the phrasing of the question. On their own (Do you like President Obama's policy proposal on XXXX?), you are correct in most instances. The current question being used by most polling groups (Do you think it's more important to reduce the deficit or XXXX?), the majority of the public supports a reduction in deficit spending. There are some great ideas in Obama's plans, but most of them force us into further deficit spending. That mitigates those ideas. If we can't afford them, should we really be doing them. President Obama talked of tightening purse-strings repeatedly. The majority of the people apparantly want to see the same from their government leaders. |
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06-19-2009, 02:12 PM | #2288 |
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Yeah, but when I see results that the number one important issue is jobs and the economy and the second is deficit reduction, it just generally reminds me that people don't know what the fuck they're doing.
Not disagreeing with your overall point though about question phrasing.
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We have always been at war with Eastasia. Last edited by path12 : 06-19-2009 at 02:13 PM. Reason: clarity. |
06-19-2009, 06:02 PM | #2289 | |
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Obama really hasn't done much policy changes from Bush that he has railed against or gives vague speeches on what needs to change without giving much detail. Could be why his support for his policies are slipping. Interesting news on the health care front: Dems try to regain health care momentum - Capitol Hill- msnbc.com Last edited by Galaxy : 06-19-2009 at 06:02 PM. |
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06-19-2009, 07:09 PM | #2290 | |
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Bush had no problem passing making major policy changes when he had a Republican majority behind him. He said he wanted a tax cut and made it happen. He said he wanted to go to war with Iraq and made it happen. A lot of his policies were bad for the country, but when he wanted something done, he made it happen. I don't expect him to fix everything at once, but I do expect him to do something. The financial regulations he proposed were weak and catered to a lot of people who's policies got us in the mess. The health care proposals are weak and don't fix the problem at all. He built his platform on change and fixing the system. He deserves blame when he comes in and doesn't come close to making changes. |
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06-20-2009, 08:01 AM | #2291 | |
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Economy. (B+). Geitner gets more credit, he seemed to be doing better now vs early on. I don't think anyone is crying with Paulson gone. Stock Market up. Banking somewhat stabilized with TARP. Auto in bankruptcy, but we all know it was going to happen sooner or later, might as well be now. Real Estate, not sure. I think residential is stabilizing but hear that commercial is the other shoe fixing to drop. Lots of regulations proposed. Government in big business (for now). Healthcare. (B) Okay, I guess some 'massive' haul is being proposed. From what I have read, the Public Option is still in doubt and single payer is out. I am somewhat disappointed as it doesn't quite seem to be as massive as I would have liked. Energy program. (N/A) Nothing much so far, but to be fair, he has bigger fish to fry right now. Stabilize Iraq. (B+) He does not get all the credit, GWB gets much. Slowly withdrawing, not as fast as he promised, but it seems prudent to me. It does seem as if the political situation has stabilized somewhat also ... as evidenced by the lack of sectarian violence. Certainly a refocus in Afghanistan with the new SF commander. With Pakistan seemingly in the fight, I predict increased coordination between Pakistan and US ... and you know what that will mean for the tribal regions and OBL! Improve world opinion of US. (A-) Certainly done in Europe, also in Lebanon as evidenced by his speech and their June parlimentary election, some in the Muslim ME as I read some reference to them thinking he is 'more' pro-Arab, but not in Israel, not sure in Iraq or other gulf-states. Interestingly, it looks as if Obama and not Hillary has been the key. Last edited by Edward64 : 06-20-2009 at 08:22 AM. |
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06-20-2009, 08:48 AM | #2292 | |
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So it's win-win. American takes care of it's Iraq problem and doesn't take a hit in world opinion. Who says the two-party system doesn't work? |
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06-20-2009, 04:52 PM | #2293 | |
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I still not sold on healthcare. I see no real change at all. Vague "Your going to be cover" through new revenue souces (taxes of some sort). |
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06-20-2009, 06:56 PM | #2294 | |
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Excercising free speech rights within this country is one thing...giving aid and comfort to the enemy during a time of war is something different completely. Only case that comes to my mind as treasonous is Jane Fonda's little trip to North Viet Nam at the height of the war, extolling the virtues of a North Vietnamese government that was killing American soldiers and holding American POWs. I wouldn't have let that b*tch back into the country. In general, I think any individual or organization whose actions endanger the lives of American is treasonous. |
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06-20-2009, 07:14 PM | #2295 | |
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Jane Fonda should have been executed. Period. |
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06-20-2009, 11:45 PM | #2296 |
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I agree on Fonda. I just think people have really loosened the definition of treason. Writing an article in the NY Times isn't treason, nor is having a protest about something. Selling secrets to the enemy is treason.
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06-21-2009, 06:49 AM | #2297 | |
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There will be change if the public option passes for the 40M+ who are underinsured. For the rest who get the benefits through employers ... maybe not, unless to stay competitive with the public option, the other insurers/providers lower their costs. Better than the GOP plan for $x credit. |
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06-21-2009, 07:40 AM | #2298 | |
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My general opinion is... 1. You can say and print whatever you want criticizing our government and its policies. 2. When you begin to support other countries over the United States you start to get into the gray area. 3. When you take a protesting stance within our country's borders you are fine. 4. Once you take that protest outside of the borders you are more than likely committing treason. Out of all the people recently, I think Sean Penn, based on what I know about some of the things he's done, has taken it the farthest and has probably, in my mind, committed treason. |
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06-22-2009, 04:11 AM | #2299 |
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I don't see why protesting outside the country matters. Does that mean if I visit Europe and write a mean e-mail to a friend back home about how much I hate the government, I'm committing treason?
I think it's providing aid to an enemy and helping to try and overthrow our country. The shit Robert Hannsen did is treason. Giving some dumb speeches in other countries about how you don't like the policies of our President isn't. |
06-22-2009, 08:02 AM | #2300 | |
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That seems like an awfully loose definition. Does any time anyone calls for a protest constitute treason? Why should it matter if you're local or international when you make said speech? Hell, by that definition, it seems like most of the stuff spewed by your average hate-filled commentator is treason. Are we going to line up Rush, O'Reilly, Hannity, etc up against the wall? SI
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