WW LXVII -- The Return of Divination Nation! (GAME OVER STUDENTS WIN!!!)

[Lorena]

Great job villagers! Definite props to heinz for his detective work, and MikeVic who duked Sndvls, that pretty much did it for us.

I'll have some questions tomorrow as I'm a a little tired right now. These were my actions:

Scans:
Night 0 - Mike Vic as student
Night 1 - Barkeep as student
Night 2 - Barkeep as student
Night 3 - Chief Rum as student
Night 4 - nothing, you bastages lynched me

Guard:
Night 1 - st.cronin
Night 2 - me
Night 3 - st. cronin, uneventful from what I can remember but I might have dozed off
Night 4 - nothing, you bastages lynched me

I had submitted a PM to scan ntndeacon but if he was lynched, then clap for Night 4. That same night I was gonna guard Barkeep.

[Lorena]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

And I had a blast, too, thanks again for hosting it (didn't want my gratitude to be lost in questioning).

Yes exactly, thanks for running the game path. Truth be told it was a little frustrating with the scans early on, but they proved invaluable towards the end.

[path12]

I'll get all the accuracy rates in a second. I've been second-guessing myself about that goddamn N0 most of the game, though by the end even though I'd do it differently next time I think it worked out OK.

Night 0. I was paranoid about having wolves outed way too early, and I also wanted to be able to give the students some eventual help that wouldn't necessarily be apparent at first.

So, I threw the wolves (and Jackal, who had to find the rest of the pack) out and then took the numbers 6-21 (the rest of the players), and randomly assigned them one of the other students, and gave all of them the correct pick. So all night zero views were students, and all were accurate.

For some reason I didn't think the contradiction would cause that much of a problem. That was a mistake I should have forseen. At the very least the Class Clown should have gotten a wrong view. I think the inconsistency was what bothered me as I saw the game play out.

Next time I would just eliminate night 0 entirely.

[path12]

BTW, this game was about two seconds away from being a wolf win when Jackal and Barkeep switched their votes at deadline. Mr. Wednesday saved the day with that late vote.

I likened it to that year the Angels were about to win the playoff series until Dave Henderson hit a homer in the bottom of the ninth with 2 out. And that was the point where I finally relaxed about whether or not the game was balanced correctly.

[Pumpy Tudors]

What I'm most curious about is SnDvls' amnesia. How did that affect his behavior after the conversion? He really did act strangely once he became a student. In addition to that, what exactly did "cunning wolf" mean for Barkeep's role?

Questions aside, I had a lot of fun in my first Werewolf game. It was a blast. Fantastic job with the storytelling, path12. I really thought I would ignore the game once I got lynched, but I was watching until the very end.

Also, congratulations to heinz and MikeVic. They were the big heroes for the students, and Mike even survived to see graduation.

Thanks for the game, path!

[path12]

Accuracy rates:

RendeR -- 62%
Barkeep -- 41%
st.cronin -- 41%
SnDvls -- 61%
The Jackal -- 44%
Dodgerchick -- 70%
Greyroofoo -- 51%
MikeVic -- 48%
Oliegirl -- 100%, Teachers Pet
Chief Rum -- 0%, Class Clown
Bsak16 -- 100% on Accuracy scans, 62% on wolf scans (could only do one or the other)
jeheinz72 -- 100% on Accuracy scans, 59% on wolf scans (same conditions)
mauboy1 -- 66%
Mr. Wednesday -- 72%
Saldana -- 69%
Lathum -- 51%
ntndeacon -- 36%
Pumpy Tudors -- 42%
Claphamsa -- 87% -- he and bsak used their communication power well to leave some hints. I'm not sure they were picked up though.
Passacaglia -- 38%
nfg22 -- 55%

The weapon was randomly assigned to a student night 3, that was obviously jeheinz.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by path12

BTW, this game was about two seconds away from being a wolf win when Jackal and Barkeep switched their votes at deadline. Mr. Wednesday saved the day with that late vote.

I likened it to that year the Angels were about to win the playoff series until Dave Henderson hit a homer in the bottom of the ninth with 2 out. And that was the point where I finally relaxed about whether or not the game was balanced correctly.

path jams hand into Chief Rum's chest and pulls out his beating heart and holds out before him, grinning gleefully...

...oh yeah, wait, 2002. Okay, I'm over Henderson's HR.

[MikeVic]

Awesome game, thanks for hosting.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

What I'm most curious about is SnDvls' amnesia. How did that affect his behavior after the conversion? He really did act strangely once he became a student. In addition to that, what exactly did "cunning wolf" mean for Barkeep's role?

Questions aside, I had a lot of fun in my first Werewolf game. It was a blast. Fantastic job with the storytelling, path12. I really thought I would ignore the game once I got lynched, but I was watching until the very end.

Also, congratulations to heinz and MikeVic. They were the big heroes for the students, and Mike even survived to see graduation.

Thanks for the game, path!

I'm glad you enjoyed it, and hope you play again. SnDvls had a really tough role. I'm a big fan of random assignment, but I would not have given that role to a new player. Luckily he rolled it.

The problem with a wolf spy is that if he gets converted and just blabs the name of his fellow wolves the game is over. That's where the amnesia came in. Once SnD was converted, he could not vote for a wolf or give any kind of indication about who the other wolves were. He had a 10% chance the first night and an additional 10% every night thereafter to recover enough memory to name one wolf. Other than that, I told him what he could and could not say in thread. I hope he forgives my stance on that, it was probably kind of frustrating, but to be honest, I thought that once he went over he'd either not be believed and lynched again or night killed immediately.

As far as "cunning wolf" goes, that just meant that any scan of Barkeep would have come up student.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

path jams hand into Chief Rum's chest and pulls out his beating heart and holds out before him, grinning gleefully...

...oh yeah, wait, 2002. Okay, I'm over Henderson's HR.

Oops, I forgot. Or that's just the M's fan in me.

[path12]

One thing I wanted when I designed this game was the chance for players to be really creative about their roles, since none were described. I think sometimes the rules can spell out too much and make the game more clinical -- plus I just love seeing fake reveals! Anyway, I thought there might be more of that than there was, but that's one of the surprises that always happens when you run a game.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by path12

Oops, I forgot. Or that's just the M's fan in me.

Yeah...you...forgot.

Seriously, though, like you said, there are few feelings better as a moderator than seeing your game come to the wire and knowing it was well-balanced. I felt the same way about my last game, Enter The Cubicle, last month. It came down to the wire, and could have gone either way. Very satisfying personally that I can design a game like that, much as I am sure your experience was for you.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by path12

BTW, this game was about two seconds away from being a wolf win when Jackal and Barkeep switched their votes at deadline. Mr. Wednesday saved the day with that late vote.

I don't remember if I came out and said it, but I cast my initial vote with the full intention of flipping my vote at the last minute.

I haven't read through all of path12's wrap-up yet, but on the last day, I was the tiebreaker, either who I had voted for or who I directed our friendly GM to break it to. I was fibbing about not knowing how the tie would be broken. That's what mauboy was talking about with breaking the tie on the other day, when MikeVic usurped it.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by path12

Mr. Wednesday -- 72%

Wow. It didn't come off that well in practice.

[Chief Rum]

So what would have happened if I scanned Barkeep? I guess he comes up villager right (double-enforced; his skill along with my accuracy)?

And what if the Teacher's Pet scanned him? What trummped what? His "always villager" or the TP's accuracy?

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by path12

I'm glad you enjoyed it, and hope you play again. SnDvls had a really tough role. I'm a big fan of random assignment, but I would not have given that role to a new player. Luckily he rolled it.

The problem with a wolf spy is that if he gets converted and just blabs the name of his fellow wolves the game is over. That's where the amnesia came in. Once SnD was converted, he could not vote for a wolf or give any kind of indication about who the other wolves were. He had a 10% chance the first night and an additional 10% every night thereafter to recover enough memory to name one wolf. Other than that, I told him what he could and could not say in thread. I hope he forgives my stance on that, it was probably kind of frustrating, but to be honest, I thought that once he went over he'd either not be believed and lynched again or night killed immediately.

As far as "cunning wolf" goes, that just meant that any scan of Barkeep would have come up student.

How would things have turned out with SnDvls if we hadn't lynched him? Did he count as a wolf up until that point?

[path12]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Wow. It didn't come off that well in practice.

Yeah, you kept rolling high numbers. I'm missing those days I was out of town on my spreadsheet, but I show three separate days you missed.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

So what would have happened if I scanned Barkeep? I guess he comes up villager right (double-enforced; his skill along with my accuracy)?

And what if the Teacher's Pet scanned him? What trummped what? His "always villager" or the TP's accuracy?

Barkeep's power trumped everything. No matter what he would have come up student.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Yeah...you...forgot.

Seriously, though, like you said, there are few feelings better as a moderator than seeing your game come to the wire and knowing it was well-balanced. I felt the same way about my last game, Enter The Cubicle, last month. It came down to the wire, and could have gone either way. Very satisfying personally that I can design a game like that, much as I am sure your experience was for you.

Yeah, it was nice, especially since there were really a ton of roles: 5 wolves who had different abilities, one convert each way, two bodyguards, two "seers" on the acc rates, two brothers and a duke, clown & pet. Plus the weapon.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

How would things have turned out with SnDvls if we hadn't lynched him? Did he count as a wolf up until that point?

I was a wolf until "lynched"

I never told the other wolves my true role I just told them if I'm lynched I might get a "second chance" at life, that way I had 2 chances at winning the game, even though it kinda feels like I lost going so far w/ Barkeep & Jackyl.

I really could only vote NTN once I was a student because I was trying to play my student role from that point on as if it were like day 1 and he could have been the only person at that point who "could have been" a wolf and I couldn't vote Barkeep or Jackyl.

if MikeVic hadn't duked it to me I think the wolves would have won this. and we almost did with the quick and well timed switch the night I was lynched.

Way to go Barkeep on that with me.

Overall it was a fun game, but being that the I was converted at the end it kinda ended on a down note for me is all because there wasn't much of anything I could do.

[claphamsa]

great game. I sucked

didnt like the cunning wolf... didnt like losing....

vote render!
i blame him for all my problems!

[path12]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

I was a wolf until "lynched"

I never told the other wolves my true role I just told them if I'm lynched I might get a "second chance" at life, that way I had 2 chances at winning the game, even though it kinda feels like I lost going so far w/ Barkeep & Jackyl.

I really could only vote NTN once I was a student because I was trying to play my student role from that point on as if it were like day 1 and he could have been the only person at that point who "could have been" a wolf and I couldn't vote Barkeep or Jackyl.

if MikeVic hadn't duked it to me I think the wolves would have won this. and we almost did with the quick and well timed switch the night I was lynched.

Way to go Barkeep on that with me.

Overall it was a fun game, but being that the I was converted at the end it kinda ended on a down note for me is all because there wasn't much of anything I could do.

I was wondering which way you were going to play it. I saw the other choice beforehand as provoking an early lynch and playing as a villager, but with both bodyguards gone that would have been a problem.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

if MikeVic hadn't duked it to me I think the wolves would have won this. and we almost did with the quick and well timed switch the night I was lynched.

I think you were cooked when you couldn't take it farther than a tie, because I think mauboy1 (who had the tiebreak at the time) was going to break the tie in the same direction that MikeVic broke it.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

...oh yeah, wait, 2002. .

Friggin FELIX RODRIGUEZ! ARGH!

[jeheinz72]

With that said, way to go Students! Awesome job bringing it home and big ups to Mr. Wednesday, NTN and MikeVic for making the right calls.

Fantastic game path, I just loved it. Right up my alley with tracking the scans and what not, plus getting to shoot someone was very very fun.

[Dr. Sak]

I got lucky and scanned CR for his accuracy rate the first night. So I knew he was the clown. I am not sure if anyone else picked up on in but I told him a few times to quit clowning around and how he was acting like a fool. CR didn't pick up on it, but I know Path did. Since Clap and I could communicate, he also told me I better watch it or someone else will pick up on it.

If the wolves wouldn't have killed clap ( and me at the same time) RendR would've been gone a day earlier. We knew he was a wolf and was hoping we would last another day to point that out and possibly reveal.

[Pumpy Tudors]

So how would the tiebreaker have worked?

[Passacaglia]

I want to know why Barkeep was so adamant about killing me!

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I want to know why Barkeep was so adamant about killing me!

Heh, almost forgot about this. Whichever night Pass was killed, Barkeep and I had a pretty big disagreement about who should be our night kill. I argued for saldana, Barkeep argued for Passacaglia. While my worries never quite materialized, the fact that we lost the game makes me wonder what-if.

[Lathum]

Great game Path, even though there is no way in hell I am playing if there is a third edition

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Heh, almost forgot about this. Whichever night Pass was killed, Barkeep and I had a pretty big disagreement about who should be our night kill. I argued for saldana, Barkeep argued for Passacaglia. While my worries never quite materialized, the fact that we lost the game makes me wonder what-if.

I can feel proud in that -- while I may not have lived long, at least my death helped better people stay alive to win it for the village.

[Barkeep49]

I was pretty upset when I realized that none of the wolves had a N0 scan as I figured someone would pick up on that in the late game when a couple of wolves would have turned up and that they weren't scanned N0. Fortunately that didn't happen.

I'm proud of my wolf play this game. Cronin and I did have a disagreement, which leaked into the game, and I think it allowed me to stay alive as a semi-trusted person and put us in a position to make our play for the win when we went after MikeVic. It's unfortunate that our play failed, combined with SnDvls becoming a student (which based on the wording was what I figured was the most likely outcome, never expressed it outloud).

I give a lot of credit to CR who was dead on in his analysis for the second game in a row. I give obvious credit to JH for making the play against Cronin, though frankly I think that day was a net positive for us as we got a villager lynched and then had the double night kill, which was purely luck.

I was glad that more people didn't follow mau's lead and lie about their results because it did allow us to accurately figure out Olie and CR, though when we killed CR it was 50/50 that he was the Class Clown, as it could have also been MikeVic.

I think all of my fellow wolves played great. I liked the dynamic that cronin and I had stumbled onto where basically one of us was going to bite it that day but should have laid a path towards being semi-trusted for the other player.

I'm curious though cronin: in retrospect why do you think killing saldana would have been the better play?

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I was glad that more people didn't follow mau's lead and lie about their results because it did allow us to accurately figure out Olie and CR, though when we killed CR it was 50/50 that he was the Class Clown, as it could have also been MikeVic.

Yeah, I had scanned MikeVic to be 48% or whatever so that was my sluething (much easier than I had let on, of course).

I was tempted to just flat out say it, but then I'd be giving up CR. While I knew the wolves had it pretty narrowed down (the options were MikeVic, SnDvls and CR) I was hoping that it was still 50/50 for you and we could get lucky.

[st.cronin]

My thinking at the time was:

Saldana was one of four or five players that had scanned Barkeep, and he had come up villager for all of them. The assumption I would have made, as a villager, was that the odds were high that one of those players was the Teacher's pet. Thinking as a villager, I would have found it VERY ODD if somebody else (like Pass) was killed.

As it turned out, no other villager thought this way. But had I been a villager, I think I would have instantly known that Barkeep was connected to the wolves - because the only reason for them to kill somebody who hadn't scanned Barkeep was if they KNEW ahead of time that Barkeep would scan as villager.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

So how would the tiebreaker have worked?

The person who had the tiebreak had two choices in case of a tie. Choice 1 was to PM me at deadline and tell me which of the tied players should be lynched. Choice 2 was that if they had a vote on one of the tied players then their vote would have counted as double.

All students without any other abilities had the chance to be a tiebreaker. I had figured out a sequence at role assignment. I think you were fifth in line.

[Barkeep49]

Cronin: I remember your reasoning at the time. I'm just curious by your comment in 2229 about what might have been.

[st.cronin]

Just a butterfly effect, the game would have unfolded differently and who knows what may have happened.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

My thinking at the time was:

Saldana was one of four or five players that had scanned Barkeep, and he had come up villager for all of them. The assumption I would have made, as a villager, was that the odds were high that one of those players was the Teacher's pet. Thinking as a villager, I would have found it VERY ODD if somebody else (like Pass) was killed.

As it turned out, no other villager thought this way. But had I been a villager, I think I would have instantly known that Barkeep was connected to the wolves - because the only reason for them to kill somebody who hadn't scanned Barkeep was if they KNEW ahead of time that Barkeep would scan as villager.

I think you overestimate how much the villagers would have picked up on that. I think it would have taken alot longer. It seemes even though the scans on Barkeep kept coming up good I think people would be reluctant to act on it until much later.

[Alan T]

My only comment as an outsider was that I was actually really pretty shocked that Barkeep didn't get much if any heat after his reveal.

Cunning Wolf used to be a pretty common role in games, even though I haven't seen it as much lately. The first thing I saw when BK revealed was that he was a cunning wolf. I was a bit suprised that there wasn't really much traction to go that direction for a while.

[st.cronin]

See, Alan saw it the same way I did.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

See, Alan saw it the same way I did.

really?

I thought you were operating under the assumption that if Saldana was killed night 2 the villagers would put the pieces together on Barkeep. I just think that is way to early in the game to make that assumption.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Lathum

really?

I thought you were operating under the assumption that if Saldana was killed night 2 the villagers would put the pieces together on Barkeep. I just think that is way to early in the game to make that assumption.

The day prior to our disagreement there was some discussion of why Barkeep had so many scans as villager, and he told us what he was planning as a fake reveal if there was any pressure. I didn't think anybody would buy it. That was a big part of why I wanted to target somebody from that group, to take pressure off BK and make his reveal unnecessary.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

The day prior to our disagreement there was some discussion of why Barkeep had so many scans as villager, and he told us what he was planning as a fake reveal if there was any pressure. I didn't think anybody would buy it. That was a big part of why I wanted to target somebody from that group, to take pressure off BK and make his reveal unnecessary.

I guess our minds work differently. I would think that would put more preassure on BK, however I still think it is to early to try that either way.

[Greyroofoo]

I was obviously a bodyguard and I was hoping the wolves would attack me as my initial pm said I would have a chance to kill my attacker.

So to path: what was the chance I would kill my attacker?

If I had survived the night I would've pushed for Barkeep to be lynched since people seemed to be revealing Barkeep as a student w/o fail. It just seemed suspicious.

[oliegirl]

Great game guys! I was irritated b/c I was pretty sure I was the TP and the last scan I put in would have confirmed it, but of course the wolves figured it out before me and slaughtered me...I still don't get the point of the stuffed kitty on my neck, but oh well.

Great job students! Woo hoo

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

Great game guys! I was irritated b/c I was pretty sure I was the TP and the last scan I put in would have confirmed it, but of course the wolves figured it out before me and slaughtered me...I still don't get the point of the stuffed kitty on my neck, but oh well.

Great job students! Woo hoo

it wasn't supposed to be a stuffed kitty it was just supposed to tie into your cat and beign a cat lover.

The PM I sent path was to kill you and somehow tie in your cat with your death...RendeR was much better in his kill descriptions to path that is for sure.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by Alan T

My only comment as an outsider was that I was actually really pretty shocked that Barkeep didn't get much if any heat after his reveal.

Cunning Wolf used to be a pretty common role in games, even though I haven't seen it as much lately. The first thing I saw when BK revealed was that he was a cunning wolf. I was a bit suprised that there wasn't really much traction to go that direction for a while.

I picked up on it a bit and commented on it a few times, but no one really seemed to agree so I just left it alone and put it in the back of my brain.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Alan T

My only comment as an outsider was that I was actually really pretty shocked that Barkeep didn't get much if any heat after his reveal.

Cunning Wolf used to be a pretty common role in games, even though I haven't seen it as much lately. The first thing I saw when BK revealed was that he was a cunning wolf. I was a bit suprised that there wasn't really much traction to go that direction for a while.

I was surprised by that also. I thought a cunning wolf would have been seen as much more likely than the opposite. But BK sold it pretty well also.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

I was obviously a bodyguard and I was hoping the wolves would attack me as my initial pm said I would have a chance to kill my attacker.

So to path: what was the chance I would kill my attacker?

If I had survived the night I would've pushed for Barkeep to be lynched since people seemed to be revealing Barkeep as a student w/o fail. It just seemed suspicious.

Your bodyguard success rate was the same as your accuracy rate. That's why I had two jocks, since the possible failure rate was so high, though DC ended up with a pretty high number of 70%.

For the others, if the jocks failed their bodyguard roll they fell asleep during the night. If they were guarding the wolf that was making the kill and stayed awake, there would have been no kill that night.

[path12]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

it wasn't supposed to be a stuffed kitty it was just supposed to tie into your cat and beign a cat lover.

The PM I sent path was to kill you and somehow tie in your cat with your death...RendeR was much better in his kill descriptions to path that is for sure.

Yeah, RendeR really liked specifying exactly how he wanted people killed. Kind of creepy, actually.