2010 NCAA Tournament (and NIT) Thread

[panerd]

Originally Posted by timmynausea

And Duke fans wonder why they're hated across the country. I don't think he's had an MRI yet, but the trainers are hopeful that it's just a sprain. Butler said after the game that he'd never been injured before, so he was more scared than anything else and really emotional/frustrated because he knew he was likely done with an awesome college career. (The other senior on the team, Wellington Smith, cried quite a bit when it was over, too.) I also think that was the moment when the WVU players went from feeling like they would come back - they've come back from double digit deficits many times this year - to feeling like they were definitely going to lose.

And if you don't think that the idea of his NBA chances was going through his mind, you're insane. You wouldn't be upset to have your life long dream as well as millions of dollars potentially dashed in one play of what will be your final college game?

Maybe I'm crazy, but I have a feeling that a knee injury in the final 4 against Duke might have slightly different emotional connotations than your knee injury wherever you might've been.

???

I always thought KC Chief was a Mizzou fan. When did he become a Duke fan?

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I'll admit I'm a homer for Duke and Coach K but people talking about the four disparity makes me think I wasn't watching the same game they were.

I took this to mean he was a Duke fan.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by timmynausea

And Duke fans wonder why they're hated across the country.

Why don't you go throw coins at coaches during the game. I'll admit I did get a chuckle out of it cause it was Pitt, but WVU fans have no room to talk on the classy meter.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by timmynausea

Maybe I'm crazy, but I have a feeling that a knee injury in the final 4 against Duke might have slightly different emotional connotations than your knee injury wherever you might've been.

I think this says more about Duke haters than it does about Duke fans. You obviously didn't understand what I was saying.

It is indeed a torn ACL, and that indeed fits with his reaction. It's unfortunate for someone who appears by all accounts to be a good kid. I hope for his sake it doesn't impact his NBA future. I feel very badly for him. I think his trainers or whoever hinted that it might be a sprain did a real disservice to the kid. It seemed pretty clear to me the way he reacted and the way he limped off the court that it was serious.

But let's assume for a moment it was a spain ... basically you're saying if you sprain your knee in the final four it's OK to roll around on the ground and cry about it for a few minutes. What happened to winning or losing with a little classy? If that was a sprain and he was crying because his season was over, I don't think that's good sportsmanship or "being a man." But I'm an old fart, so there.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by panerd

???

I always thought KC Chief was a Mizzou fan. When did he become a Duke fan?

1. Missouri
2. Missouri State
3. Duke
--- Everyone else in the universe ---
Last: Kansas

[Radii]

So I wonder what has to happen for Duke to lose their "most hated team" status? Duke really hasn't done shit for a decade until this year. Are they really worthy of the blind hate still? Aren't they just another slightly underachieving top tier team at this point?

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Radii

So I wonder what has to happen for Duke to lose their "most hated team" status? Duke really hasn't done shit for a decade until this year. Are they really worthy of the blind hate still? Aren't they just another slightly underachieving top tier team at this point?

The crop of obnoxious fans need to fade away. I was always in the court of "they're a good team and I have no opinion one way or the other" but then seeing either whining ("nobody loves us, everyone is against us" crap) or arrogance from their fans it pushed me to the "please make them lose and shut them up" crowd.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Radii

So I wonder what has to happen for Duke to lose their "most hated team" status? Duke really hasn't done shit for a decade until this year. Are they really worthy of the blind hate still? Aren't they just another slightly underachieving top tier team at this point?

They have one of the rare great school/great basketball program combos, so there will always be feelings of inferiority flaming the blind hate.

They'd really have to fall off the map for that to go away.

[Logan]

ESPN has to blow up.

[molson]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

The crop of obnoxious fans need to fade away. I was always in the court of "they're a good team and I have no opinion one way or the other" but then seeing either whining ("nobody loves us, everyone is against us" crap) or arrogance from their fans it pushed me to the "please make them lose and shut them up" crowd.

Duke fans in New Jersey? Ya, I can see why that would be an annoying group. Probably not a very accurate cross-section though.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by molson

Duke fans in New Jersey? Ya, I can see why that would be an annoying group. Probably not a very accurate cross-section though.

Where do you think Duke recruits from? They're not pulling all those blue bloods from amongst the local community.

[terpkristin]

Originally Posted by Radii

So I wonder what has to happen for Duke to lose their "most hated team" status? Duke really hasn't done shit for a decade until this year. Are they really worthy of the blind hate still? Aren't they just another slightly underachieving top tier team at this point?

I can't speak for everybody, but for me (with my admitted Maryland bias), Coach K is a big part of the problem. He's a hypocritical a-hole and every time I see him on the TV, I want to throw something.

On another topic I saw in this thread, as much as I want ALL athletes to freaking man up when they get injured, I can tolerate them crying as they're assisted off the court/field much more than I can tolerate the crying after they lose. I know it's the emotional stress, etc, but it just drives me bonkers. Alas.

And I hate that icky woman who's doing the singing on all the ads for March Madness. Talk about wanting to throw something.

/tk

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I think this says more about Duke haters than it does about Duke fans. You obviously didn't understand what I was saying.

I'm also willing to bet that if Coach K did to one of his hurt players what Huggins did to Butler...come out and console him after his injury...the reaction would be totally different.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

I'm also willing to bet that if Coach K did to one of his hurt players what Huggins did to Butler...come out and console him after his injury...the reaction would be totally different.

Hate to say it but I think you're right.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by molson

Duke fans in New Jersey? Ya, I can see why that would be an annoying group. Probably not a very accurate cross-section though.

Nope, Duke fans on the internet.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by molson

They have one of the rare great school/great basketball program combos, so there will always be feelings of inferiority flaming the blind hate.

They'd really have to fall off the map for that to go away.

That's just normal though. this goes well beyond that. Duke is still riding hate generated from a good run at the start of the 1990s. Since Duke last won a title, UNC has two titles and 3 final fours, Kansas has a title and multiple final fours, UCLA went to 3 straight, yet Duke is still the focus of the average fan it seems. Their white hot run in the early 90s coincided with the rise of ESPN and I'm sure that is a big reason for it, I was hoping that a 8 year run with just one final four and multiple 1st/2nd round exits would be enough to take things back to normal a bit.

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I think this says more about Duke haters than it does about Duke fans. You obviously didn't understand what I was saying.

Not even going to get into all of this since the severity of the injury makes the bulk of our argument moot. I just want to clarify that I'm not a Duke hater. I'm no fan, but they're not a team that I actively root against (or even care enough to watch) aside from tournament upset scenarios or etc. I am aware that they are widely hated, and that's what I was referring to when I said that.

I also completely understood what you were saying. I made reference to your injury only because you did.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Where do you think Duke recruits from? They're not pulling all those blue bloods from amongst the local community.

Indeed 3 of the 14 players on the Duke roster are from NJ (Peters, Thomas, & Zoubek).

2 each from IL, IN, and NC, 1 each from AR, CO, MD, VA, and OR.

Sue me, I was curious after it came up, figured I might as well post it while I had the other tab open

[spleen1015]

I tore my ACL back in 1997 and it is by far the worst pain I have ever felt in my life.

On Dec 23rd, 2008, I slipped on ice on my back porch and I felt the exact same pain. I felt the exact same way for days after. I thought for sure I had torn it again. MRI showed a sprain.

Calling the guy a wuss is stupid. You have no idea what he was feeling.

tk, how is Coach K a hypocrite?

[terpkristin]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

tk, how is Coach K a hypocrite?

The way he handles himself publicly vs. the way he lets his players and his fans act. I'm not by any means saying Maryland's fans are any better (they're not, and picked up a lot of bad habits from the Cameron Crazies, among others), but at least Gary doesn't whine about how rude (in terms of things that are said about players) the fans are when his team plays in a tough venue. In at least 3 other ACC schools I know of, Coach K has complained to the AD that the fans are saying vulgar and rude things about his players, where his fans do the EXACT same things and don't get me started on the vulgarity bit...

As far as calling players wusses...actually, I do know pretty much how much pain most of them are in. I do think most of them can man up a bit. But pain combined with the emotion of a national spotlight game, I try to cut them a LITTLE slack. What really drives me nuts is how the commentators play it up.

/tk

[panerd]

I am not really a Coach K hater. I actually bet on Duke and cheered for them last night. I will say this about Coach K though... Quin Snyder and Jeff Capel probably learned to recruit from somebody prior to becoming head coaches. Or did they both just "go rogue"?

[timmynausea]

I also thought it was funny after all the ratings talk that this was the highest rated final 4 since 2005.

Final Four draws highest TV ratings in five years - SI.com - March Madness 2009

[k0ruptr]

I saw that and laughed. after how many people say the lower seeds don't interest them, this final four drew better ratings then the one a couple years ago with all #1 seeds. LoL.

to me, the lower seeds provide a higher interest then seeing all #1's

[panerd]

Originally Posted by timmynausea

I also thought it was funny after all the ratings talk that this was the highest rated final 4 since 2005.

Final Four draws highest TV ratings in five years - SI.com - March Madness 2009

We have to call in JiMGa on this one. My gut feeling is that the bad economy would cause more people to be at home watching. Would be interested to know how big a role that played.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by molson

They have one of the rare great school/great basketball program combos, so there will always be feelings of inferiority flaming the blind hate.

They'd really have to fall off the map for that to go away.

That, and I'll show respect to the first Duke fan I meet that is also a fan of their football program.

My location is full of Michigan football/Duke basketball fans, because the Michigan basketball program apparently doesn't exist. (Spartan fans I've met tend to agree with this assessment, however) Those same people are currently running around with their heads cut off in the fall trying to figure out why the "L" number in the Wolverine standings is so high.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by panerd

We have to call in JiMGa on this one. My gut feeling is that the bad economy would cause more people to be at home watching. Would be interested to know how big a role that played.

You really gotta wait & see the individual game splits to assess it much. Could be roughly even across the two games, could be a big number in one game pushing up a little number in the other.

And as I typing this I figure I'll look around to see what the splits were
(I usually don't look at any of the numbers until Monday, just part of the work routine)

(These appear to be Household numbers)
Total was a 9.7rtg/19 share, up 8% over last year, best since '05 10.9/19

Duke game was a 10.0 rtg/18 share, also up 8% over '09, best in the same window since '05 (UNC-MichSt) did an 11.4/19

The number for the Duke game is, to me at least (and I think to other media observers) disappointing although the margin kept them steadily on the decline for the night.

Give or take a little, figuring roughly equal game lengths, that 10.0 means the first game did about a 9.4 (to get to the 9.7 avg),not much difference but considering the close final score and the lack of competition (from the other networks), that's reasonable too.

The biggest surprise I see from the preliminary numbers (overnights, especially sports, are always subject to substantial final revisions) is that the first game actually outperformed the second game with A18-49. That's so out of the ordinary for performance that it's in the range of statistical anomaly, although I have no idea off hand what was on cable last night that might have an influence on that.

Personally it was the first time in at least 33 years that I didn't watch a single minute of either Final Four game.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by panerd

We have to call in JiMGa on this one. My gut feeling is that the bad economy would cause more people to be at home watching. Would be interested to know how big a role that played.

Oh, on that point, there's been some bump for other event type shows.
Most recently would be the Academy Awards, up 14% over last year with the highest ratings since ... yep, you guessed it, 2005 (same as the "best since" year for the Final Four).

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

If that was indeed a knee sprain, he may be the biggest wuss in the world. I made a crude joke to a friend last night that given his emotion, that was either a very severe knee injury or he was crying about the money he just lost in the draft. If that was a sprain, makes me think my bad joke might have been true.

I'm not exactly a tough guy but I've had a severe knee injury so I know what it feels like. I wish the guy the best and I hope for his sake it isn't serious, but it was a sprain he over acted.

I've had all kinds of injuries though basketball to just about every part of my body over the years. NOTHING hurt as bad as when I hyperextended my knee a few years ago. I have a pretty high pain tolerance, but I was completely incapacitated and looking pretty much exactly like Butler did. Thankfully I wasn't being watched by millions of people.

I did it again about 6 weeks ago though not nearly as bad, but still, I was on the ground for a good 2 minutes in agony. All I'm sayin' is that knee injuries fucking hurt.

[Swaggs]

Not to mention two bone bruises, which in my limited experience felt like someone hitting you, as hard as they can, with a hammer and hurt like hell immediately after they happen.

[JPhillips]

In preparation for tonight's game let's all remember that Dukies are goat fuckers.

[sterlingice]

Like we needed reminding

SI

[Kodos]

Duke basketball is up there with the great evil teams in sports: Notre Dame football, the New York Yankees, the Dallas Cowboys, the LA Lakers. GO BUTLER!

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Duke basketball is up there with the great evil teams in sports: Notre Dame football, the New York Yankees, the Dallas Cowboys, the LA Lakers.

The common thread here is annoying, band wagon fans that really know nothing about the team or the sport.

I don't hate any of these teams, I hate their "fans" that come out of the woodwork when they are winning. For whatever reason a big pet peeve of mine is people who are fans of a college team that have no tie to the university.I'm not saying you had to go there, but there are so many Duke fans who have never been to North Carolina and have no ties to the school but allege they are huge fans. Probably irrational.

[Groundhog]

Semi-interesting article about the Duke White Devils and the Butler Whitedogs:

Duke, Butler defy racial stereotypes - College Basketball - Rivals.com

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Lathum

The common thread here is annoying, band wagon fans that really know nothing about the team or the sport.

I don't hate any of these teams, I hate their "fans" that come out of the woodwork when they are winning. For whatever reason a big pet peeve of mine is people who are fans of a college team that have no tie to the university.I'm not saying you had to go there, but there are so many Duke fans who have never been to North Carolina and have no ties to the school but allege they are huge fans. Probably irrational.

Don't these two paragraphs describe 99% of the people who are cheering for Butler as well?

[Kodos]

But we're not cheering FOR Butler -- we're cheering AGAINST Duke. I'm not a fan of Butler by any stretch. But tonight I will be cheering for them.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Kodos

But we're not cheering FOR Butler -- we're cheering AGAINST Duke. I'm not a fan of Butler by any stretch. But tonight I will be cheering for them.

People would be rooting for Butler against any traditionally successful program.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Duke basketball is up there with the great evil teams in sports: Notre Dame football, the New York Yankees, the Dallas Cowboys, the LA Lakers. GO BUTLER!

That's a lot of combined championships right there.....that's quite a coincidence....

[sooner333]

Originally Posted by panerd

Jeff Capel probably learned to recruit from somebody prior to becoming head coaches. Or did they both just "go rogue"?

Let's wait for the whole story to come out (or see if any story ends up coming out). From all accounts, Capel has been doing things the right way. If this Gallon deal turns out to be a thing initiated by the coaching staff, then I will have to agree with you, but I think if anything happened, it was on the financial advisor, not the coaching staff.

[panerd]

To me the "underdog" is the classic bandwagon. It's like the Patriots against St. Louis in their first Super Bowl win. It was trendy to cheer for New England. Then they started winning games and it was trendy to cheer against them. How Butler (George Mason) is anything but bandwagon is beyond me.

Not really a criticism of pulling for Butler, just a question of what bandwagon fan means if it doesn't describe cheering for Butler.

[SportsDino]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

Dola, it cracks me up how folks talk about the refs and Duke.

There's no fucking way they won because they are a good team. The refs had to help them win it.

I don't see anyone bitching about all of the fouls called against MSU, putting 3 of their better players on the bench for long stretches.

I'll bitch about it, the refs were bullshit during that game, but I don't want to take anything away from Butler. They played hard and deserved it, although I would have liked to see the refs not seem so biased.

In detail (since I'm bitching):
- Nearly identical situations where a charge was called on MSU, and a blocking foul was called on MSU... the blocking foul was the right call in both... kinda hard to call a charge when the defender's feet are still moving while the 'charger' is in the air. Still this one is within a reasonable margin of error.

- Reach in fouls... I saw at least one where I'm not even sure MSU touched the guy at all (and considering the layup went in smooth as could be it certainly wasn't enough content to interfere with the shot with that potential fingertip worth of touch). Butler on the other hand got away with outright ripping the ball away numerous times (was called once near the end when it was just plain silly).

- The game ender was really Green trying to lean in to hit the long layup-jumper thing, and getting a whole bunch of contact... but Draymond said it best 'regardless of whether he got me I need to finish strong there'.

- One out of bounds on Morgan seemed complete nonsense... pretty obvious it was knocked away by Butler, not to mention it followed pretty much a non-call of them crashing into Morgan trying to get the rebound.

- One out of bounds on Green was so blatantly bad that the announcer was dumbfounded. Should have been a foul on the player completely running Green over.

- Two of the early fouls on Morgan were off the ball stuff that just seemed shady.

- Butler #54 is a flopmonster, so I have little doubt that those off the ball fouls were probably dealing with that guy throwing his body around like a madman.

All in all, a terrible game from the refs... though to be honest I think Butler probably would have won anyway since our shots (even mostly uncontested layups) just didn't seem to fall.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by panerd

To me the "underdog" is the classic bandwagon. It's like the Patriots against St. Louis in their first Super Bowl win. It was trendy to cheer for New England. Then they started winning games and it was trendy to cheer against them. How Butler (George Mason) is anything but bandwagon is beyond me.

Not really a criticism of pulling for Butler, just a question of what bandwagon fan means if it doesn't describe cheering for Butler.

I think of bandwagon fans as being people who don't care about the local sports team when they are bad, but when they become good, the bandwagon fan suddenly acts like a big fan and wants to bask in whatever reflected glory there might be. As soon as the team hits a down cycle again, they will hop back off the bandwagon. This contrasts with the die-hard fan who is still rooting for the Cubs, even though they haven't won it all during their lifetime, and probably never will.

There are likely tons of bandwagon Butler fans in Indiana right now. But elsewhere, there are just a lot of people who are rooting against Duke and who are thus put in the position of rooting for Butler just for today. They make no claims to be a fan of Butler. They just want Butler to win so that Duke loses. That's where the happiness will come from. I could give a rat's ass about Butler otherwise.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Kodos

This contrasts with the die-hard fan who is still rooting for the Cubs, even though they haven't won it all during their lifetime, and probably never will.

You shut your dirty little alien mouth. THIS IS THE YEAR.

[Kodos]

See? Coffee is a true fan.

I don't care about baseball outside of rooting against the Yankees (and more recently, the Red Sox as well). I'd love to see your Cubs win it all. They are probably the closest thing I have to a favorite team in baseball. If I was pressed to root for someone, it'd be them. That being said, I couldn't name a player on the Cubs right now because I don't follow baseball outside of a vague monitoring of the success/non-success of the Yankees. But as a fan who knows what it is to root for a team that never wins (Indiana football fan), I would feel a certain amount of happiness for another fanbase that has taken more than its share of lumps if that team finally won a championship.

A successful baseball season is one that ends with the Yankees being eliminated.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by molson

That's a lot of combined championships right there.....that's quite a coincidence....

And back to my point that Duke is really nothing special and not worthy of all of this hate... they're the only team on that list of hated teams that doesn't have the most championships in their sport*** (EDIT: Oops, the Celtics have more titles than the Lakers, but at least the Lakers are 2nd). They are tied with Kansas for 5th most titles in NCAA History with a grand total of 3. They don't belong on any sort of list next to the Yankees, Irish, Lakers, and Cowboys. They haven't done shit to earn it.



Someone mentioned bandwagon fans, where are they? I don't see Duke fans coming out of the woodwork on FOFC(like 3 people have mentioned cheering for Duke and I've known they were Duke fans all along). I don't see any assholes coming out of the woodwork on Facebook. Maybe they're all in New Jersey. /shrug.

[LloydLungs]

I don't think there's anything wrong with liking an underdog in college hoops, especially if you're a fan of a mid-major like I am (well, was -- UNO going D-III now). Seeing another mid-major do this well is awesome even if one has no personal connection to them at all. Makes you believe your team can do it too (or could, if they weren't being sabotaged by their chancellor into D-III hell).

I'm now depressed because of all the qualifiers I had to put into that paragraph. Anyway, go Butler. I've got them +8.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I think of bandwagon fans as being people who don't care about the local sports team when they are bad, but when they become good, the bandwagon fan suddenly acts like a big fan and wants to bask in whatever reflected glory there might be. As soon as the team hits a down cycle again, they will hop back off the bandwagon. This contrasts with the die-hard fan who is still rooting for the Cubs, even though they haven't won it all during their lifetime, and probably never will.

There are likely tons of bandwagon Butler fans in Indiana right now. But elsewhere, there are just a lot of people who are rooting against Duke and who are thus put in the position of rooting for Butler just for today. They make no claims to be a fan of Butler. They just want Butler to win so that Duke loses. That's where the happiness will come from. I could give a rat's ass about Butler otherwise.

I can buy that, especially the part about Butler fans in Indiana. I can only imagine how many people are wearing Butler shirts that can't name more than 2 players. "I like that Hayward guy and the white guy with the mustache"

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Radii

And back to my point that Duke is really nothing special and not worthy of all of this hate... they're the only team on that list of hated teams that doesn't have the most championships in their sport*** (EDIT: Oops, the Celtics have more titles than the Lakers, but at least the Lakers are 2nd). They are tied with Kansas for 5th most titles in NCAA History with a grand total of 3. They don't belong on any sort of list next to the Yankees, Irish, Lakers, and Cowboys. They haven't done shit to earn it.

Actually, the Steelers are ahead of the Cowboys in terms of titles.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Kodos

See? Coffee is a true fan.

I don't care about baseball outside of rooting against the Yankees (and more recently, the Red Sox as well). I'd love to see your Cubs win it all. They are probably the closest thing I have to a favorite team in baseball. If I was pressed to root for someone, it'd be them. That being said, I couldn't name a player on the Cubs right now because I don't follow baseball outside of a vague monitoring of the success/non-success of the Yankees. But as a fan who knows what it is to root for a team that never wins (Indiana football fan), I would feel a certain amount of happiness for another fanbase that has taken more than its share of lumps if that team finally won a championship.

A successful baseball season is one that ends with the Yankees being eliminated.

If the Cubs won though, then you would hate them.

You don't think they have any annoying fans who would be higher profile with a Cubs title run?

[Kodos]

Not really. They'd probably have to win a number of seasons in order for their fans to be obnoxious enough for me to turn against them. It's almost always the fans that turn me against a team. Duke is the rare exception there. They earned my eternal hatred with the Christian Laettner stomp and later that same season with the worst-officiated game in history, Duke's "victory" over Indiana.