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View Poll Results: Who will (not should) be the Democratic presidential nominee in 2008? | |||
Joe Biden | 0 | 0% | |
Hillary Clinton | 62 | 35.84% | |
Christopher Dodd | 0 | 0% | |
John Edwards | 10 | 5.78% | |
Mike Gravel | 1 | 0.58% | |
Dennis Kucinich | 2 | 1.16% | |
Barack Obama | 97 | 56.07% | |
Bill Richardson | 1 | 0.58% | |
Voters: 173. You may not vote on this poll |
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04-12-2008, 04:32 PM | #2151 | |
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Don't want to get this thread off track, but on your first two bullets, the difference between Sunni and Shi'a isn't exactly cut and dry, and it's really about 4th or 5th most important thing after family, tribal affiliation, region and ethnicity. And if you want to look at some crazy sources, like say CENTCOM or Gen. Petraeus' congressional testimony, you'd see that Iran has (probably) been providing training and financial support for many groups in Iraq including al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia and they've even (allegedly) gone so far as to have Qods Force operatives directing tactics on the ground. But I don't want to go down that road in this thread. |
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04-12-2008, 04:39 PM | #2152 | |
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So, what you're saying is, we should invade Iran? |
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04-12-2008, 06:04 PM | #2153 | |
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If he's saying there are racists inbetween Philly and Pittsburgh, that's true. The KKK is still big in the North Central part of the state. There's no way Obama gets any votes up there. |
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04-12-2008, 06:22 PM | #2154 | |
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It would be the same for pro-choice conservative women who may vote democrat if a pro-life republican runs. I don't know that there are a ton of people who are like these two, but I bet there are a lot more than we think. And, as I stated above regarding the minimal actual difference between candidates, I think it's fair for someone to throw away difference in other issues if one (gun control, abortion, ..) is that important to them and they feel it is threatened. |
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04-12-2008, 08:35 PM | #2155 | |
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"On February 26, McCain appeared at a campaign rally in Cincinnati with the Reverend Rod Parsley of the World Harvest Church of Columbus, a supersize Pentecostal institution that features a 5,200-seat sanctuary, a television studio (where Parsley tapes a weekly show), and a 122,000-square-foot Ministry Activity Center. That day, a week before the Ohio primary, Parsley praised the Republican presidential front-runner as a "strong, true, consistent conservative." The endorsement was important for McCain, who at the time was trying to put an end to the lingering challenge from former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee, a favorite among Christian evangelicals. A politically influential figure in Ohio, Parsley could also play a key role in McCain's effort to win this bellwether state in the general election. McCain, with Parsley by his side at the Cincinnati rally, called the evangelical minister a "spiritual guide."" That just summarizes the relationship - I'll get specifics on Parlsley if you need them. So, to keep the spiritual adviser nutjobs straight: Rev Wright - hates white America Rev Hagee - hates Catholics and homosexuals Rev Parsley - hates Islam. Who is Hillary's adviser? I'm sure that guy's got issues too Last edited by Toddzilla : 04-12-2008 at 08:45 PM. |
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04-12-2008, 08:45 PM | #2156 | |
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1983: Voted against MLK Day 1987: Supported AZ governor rescinding MLK day. 1990: Voted against the Civil Rights Act 4 times - primarily aimed at employer discrimination. And then there are the partisan-ish votes against quotas, affirmative action, tax cuts for the rich, and the estate tax which are party-line issues. |
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04-12-2008, 09:12 PM | #2157 | |
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Without getting into the merits (or un-merits) of each of the positions, which one do you think resonates better with the voting public? |
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04-12-2008, 11:15 PM | #2158 | |
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Probably a fair assessment, although it's more like Philly or alabama. Pittsburgh has its big democratic regime too I suppose. |
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04-13-2008, 01:45 AM | #2159 |
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Toddzilla,
If you can't stand John McCain because of these things, I don't see any possible way you could like Obama for the exact same reasons. As for the spiritual advisor....to claim that this guy in Ohio is in McCain's inner-circle like Rev Wright is with Obama is grasping with the hopes that it sticks. It's not even in the same stratosphere. Again, nobody is giving Obama shit because Luis Farrakahn endorsed him. Rev Wright and Luis Farrakahn are two different levels of relationship to Obama (or at least I hope so, since Farrakahn and Wright go way back). |
04-13-2008, 07:51 AM | #2160 | |
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On the surface, the hating Islam probably plays better on Main Street, USA. In reality, all 3 ought to be condemned equally IMO. |
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04-13-2008, 07:56 AM | #2161 | |
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Because, to be honest, we've all heard a thousand times about Obama and Wright, and I'd wager my post was the first time you'd ever heard about Rev. Parsley. And that isn't because McCain's relationship to Parsley isn't significant or newsworthy - it most certainly is. I haven't even brought up Richard Quinn - look that guy up. |
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04-13-2008, 09:31 AM | #2162 |
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I do think there is a difference when it comes to newsworthyness of known contacts. McCain has been in the public eye for over 30 years, run for president multiple times and been a staple in the senate for decades. Most people have a pretty good idea on his beliefs and character from watching him all these years. Obama pretty much burst on the scene in the past democratic convention in 2004 and has been looked on almost as a Messiah for the democratic party. There's going to be a lot more interest in seeing who he is and who he associates with than there is with someone like McCain or Hillary.
In the end, Obama will probably have the easiest time of it from the media on balance - but this personal beliefs/close friends issue is one where he may take more criticism. |
04-13-2008, 10:24 AM | #2163 |
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04-13-2008, 11:07 AM | #2164 |
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Obama talking about the same thing in 2004.
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04-13-2008, 12:05 PM | #2165 | |
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Wow, these people have been bitter for a long time!
Interesting blog post from a Philly blogger.. with an exerpt from a NYTimes piece inside. http://www.classicalvalues.com/archi.../post_733.html Quote:
The natural follow up, is of course, are the other things that Obama mentioned that people "cling to"... antipathy towards people of a different color, anti-free trade sentiment, etc. also traditions that are important and passed on from generation to generation? The story also says Hillary's been playing up the faith aspect of Obama's comments, because she's been campaigning with Philly mayor Michael Nutter, who just signed five EXTREMELY controversial gun control bills.
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04-13-2008, 12:28 PM | #2166 |
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04-14-2008, 07:33 AM | #2167 |
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Does this Wright fellow realize just how much he's hurting Obama?
http://www.suntimes.com/images/cds/MP3/041208wright.mp3 Just shut up already. |
04-14-2008, 08:43 AM | #2168 |
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There's a neat little piece on Foxnews.com where they send a reporter out into rural Pennsylvana to get reactions to Obama's latest major campaign-ending gaffe.
What they find, basically, are people agreeing with Obama... hxxp://onthescene.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/04/12/are-people-bitter-in-pennsylvania/ |
04-14-2008, 08:51 AM | #2169 | |
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When I studied cultural and regional geography, the biggest trap was that you will ALWAYS find what you are looking for. |
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04-14-2008, 08:51 AM | #2170 | |
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I saw that on TV. Pretty good little piece. |
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04-14-2008, 09:46 AM | #2171 | |
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An interesting Op-ed on why Obama's comments rub the wrong way. Now, I fully admit that Bill Kristol is in no way unbiased, but its a very interesting article (and yes, I can fully predict the objections to comparing a statement by Marx to Obama's):
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/14/op...ristol.html?hp Quote:
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04-14-2008, 02:28 PM | #2172 |
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Last edited by Young Drachma : 04-14-2008 at 02:28 PM. |
04-14-2008, 02:49 PM | #2173 |
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I love how she was booed today for trying to slam the comments more.
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04-14-2008, 02:54 PM | #2174 | |
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Last edited by Young Drachma : 04-14-2008 at 02:54 PM. |
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04-14-2008, 03:53 PM | #2175 |
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I was shocked when she said Pennsylvania and America. Is she trying to say Pennsylvania isn't part of America? What does The National Review think?
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04-14-2008, 05:44 PM | #2176 | ||
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04-14-2008, 07:02 PM | #2177 | ||||
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First off, can I be amused at Christopher Hitchens calling Andrew Sullivan a "lesbian" the other day? Because that amused me greatly.
Now, here's where Sullivan's off base. What Kristol actually wrote was: Quote:
And Sullivan's response: Quote:
Another example. Sullivan says: Quote:
Quote:
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04-14-2008, 10:49 PM | #2178 |
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Cam beat me too it. Sullivan is making WAAAY too many leaps in logic in evaluating Kristol's article. Kristol's main point isn't really addressed by Sullivan.
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04-14-2008, 10:55 PM | #2179 |
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Thank God a bunch of rich, Washington and New York columnists are setting me straight about small town America. They're much more informative than my experience growing up in rural Ohio.
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04-14-2008, 11:00 PM | #2180 |
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So you speak for all of Ohio? I'm guessing it is you we have to blame for voting for Bush in 2004, giving him the state, then?
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04-14-2008, 11:07 PM | #2181 |
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DId I say I speak for all of Ohio? I just find it ironic that a bunch of grossly paid newspaper and television prima donnas who have never lived outside of a major city are suddenly the arbiters of life in small town America. Bill Kristol doesn't know shit about about life in the rural midwest. This is just a convenient way to play the same partisan attack game he plays against every Democrat.
Hillary supporters should be very careful about their new found friends on the right. Here's an insight, they really don't like you and will stop at nothing to destroy you if Hillary is the nominee.
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04-14-2008, 11:10 PM | #2182 |
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And yet, a lot of people in the midwest and small town America like and respect Bill Kristol.
I find this type of argument akin to saying men can't have a valid argument on abortion because its not their bodies that they are deciding upon.
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04-15-2008, 07:32 AM | #2183 |
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Hillary had better remember her comments about it's okay to have guns and enjoy them. Get the votes any way you can, and then support gun control.
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04-15-2008, 07:34 AM | #2184 |
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I'd wager the percentage of people in small towns who even recognize Kristol's name is minimal. The vast majority of the people I grew up with and live around now don't subscribe to either the Weekly Standard or The New York Times. He's the elite, writing political opinion for a very good living and hobnobbing on the Washington cocktail circuit. He's certainly entitled to his opinion about small towns, but his column is nothing more than his typical hit piece. He certainly has no insight into the lives of small town Americans.
Using Kristol, who has quite literally been wrong about every fucking thing he's ever written, as a way to attack a fellow Democrat is shameful.
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04-15-2008, 07:46 AM | #2185 |
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I found it really ironic that Bill Kristol was giving Obama crap for "not having done anything" when the only reason he's where he is because his father was Irving Kristol. (the godfather of the neoconservative movement) (Unless you think there is some merit to having been Chief of Staff for Vice-President Dan freaking Quayle.) There are plenty of well-reasoned ways to dismiss Obama as a cheap suit built on marketing and PR prowess, rather than substance, but...Kristol's piece wasn't a particularly good example of that.
Last edited by Young Drachma : 04-15-2008 at 07:48 AM. |
04-15-2008, 08:45 AM | #2186 |
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So is he the godbrother of the neoconservative movement?
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04-15-2008, 08:47 AM | #2187 |
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The Godson, then.
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04-15-2008, 08:49 AM | #2188 |
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04-15-2008, 09:11 AM | #2189 | |
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I'm not sure where Harshaw or Kaus are from, but they seemingly have a similar opinion:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com...ml?ref=opinion Quote:
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04-15-2008, 09:30 AM | #2190 |
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Obama needs to release an ad that talks about his history in ways other than how he globetrotted and instead how he earned scholarships to good schools, how his family was poor and how if it weren't for the promise of America he'd be nothing. If John McCain's narrative is "I'm married to a rich chick and my family's business is being war admirals" and Hillary's is "I married well and that gave me lots of experience" then..I don't understand why he's not beating home the point that he's NOTHING like these people and that it has nothing to do with race.
Who are these people running his campaign? |
04-15-2008, 10:11 AM | #2191 |
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But anger over welfare and affirmative action did help to create the Reagan coalition. Are we not allowed to say that anymore?
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04-15-2008, 10:18 AM | #2192 | |
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You are missing his point... ie, the second quotes part, where attention to welfare was distracting from other aspects. This is why Democrats have failed recently (aside from Bill Clinton who actually "got it"), because they seem to think these social issues are simply Republicans trumping up bitterness over economic losses and directing it somewhere else. As the ed says, people were upset over welfare because they were upset over the concept of welfare (part of the concept of cradle to grave government caretaking), NOT because of bitterness over other economic issues.
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04-15-2008, 12:17 PM | #2193 |
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The small town rubes don't understand how much they've been insulted. Three polls out today show no little or no movement from polls taken before Obama's comments.
I guess the elites need to work harder at convincing people Obama's an elitist.
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04-15-2008, 12:21 PM | #2194 |
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Isddiqui: I'll grant that some of the frustration over welfare was due to the nature of welfare, but it absolutely was caught up in a general anger over economic conditions. Welfare has never been that big of an expenditure, but it recieved oversized attention due to the way it was demogogued. This year the entire social safety net, excluding Medicaid, is roughly equal to the service on the national debt.
Saying people don't always like welfare and that the welfare issue became bigger than it's cost merited aren't mutually exclusive. Remember the whole "welfare queen" idea?
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04-15-2008, 12:25 PM | #2195 | |
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I was debating about whether or not to post it, but I'm hoping to elicit more snark from JPhillips.
http://www.stephenbainbridge.com/pun...mas_a_marxist/ Quote:
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04-15-2008, 12:27 PM | #2196 |
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Lieberman is a turncoat if there ever was one. Obama campaigned for his insurgent campaign and this is how he repays him? Wow. I hope Harry Reid strips him of his chairmanship at the end of this term. He's really lost his mind. And this from a non-Dem, I just think...I can understand being bitter that you managed to lose a primary and then ran on the "name you know" to get elected, but...this guy is off his rocker more than ever. '04 had a worse effect on him than we initially believed.
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04-15-2008, 12:30 PM | #2197 | |
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Some of it was racial motivated, of course, but I'd bet good money that folks like JIMG and other conservatives in suburban/rural America hated the idea of the government supporting folks. There is an idea of what government should do for the people, and to a lot of people in this country, welfare comes close to crossing that line.
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04-15-2008, 12:34 PM | #2198 |
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I agree completely, but I also think the issue was put to the forefront in a way that was designed to split voters. Some of the same politicians railing about welfare are also the ones who don't have a problem with exempting overseas contractors from fraud regulations. Welfre was never the massive expenditure that it was portrayed as.
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04-15-2008, 12:43 PM | #2199 | |
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I'm thinking this is part of the problem. You are trying to frame it in terms of "massive expenditure", but a ton of people didn't care how much it cost, just that it was wrong. Like I'm sure there are loads of people out there who don't care if its only 1 illegal immigrant who comes in every year, they still believe it to be morally wrong practice.
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04-15-2008, 12:47 PM | #2200 |
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On an individual level you're right. My point is that it was exploited by politicians who knew it wasn't the cause of budget deficits. Just because some people oppose it on ideological grounds doesn't mean it can't be exploited. I can't find them now, but I remember a number of polls where people grossly overestimated the cost of welfare. The sizable amount of people who believe in a small, temporary assistance program were targeted with misleading and false claims designed to peal off some of them so that they would weigh welfare reform higher in their voting criteria.
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