OT: A Song of Ice and Fire Series (spoilers inside)

[bronconick]

He released that Arya chapter from Winds just before S4Ep1, so it's already affecting him.

[Zinto]

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerp...nds-of-winter/

New chapter from Winds of Winter was just released!

[ISiddiqui]

It's a fun chapter. It really tends to show how far Sansa has come in terms of cunning.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Zinto

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerp...nds-of-winter/

New chapter from Winds of Winter was just released!

Nice, thanks for the tip. Decent chapter, but a rather slow one considering the increase in pace that needs to happen soon.

[ISiddiqui]

You have to bring Harrold the Heir to the Vale somehow and not every chapter is going to be bang 'em up action . Even Storm of Swords had its slower chapters to build story.

[ISiddiqui]

'Game of Thrones' author George R.R. Martin determined to finish book by 2016 | EW.com

George determined to finished Winds by 2016. But this is the big bombshell I think (though I think we knew it'd be like two different stories when the show met and overtook the books):

In one intriguing new wrinkle, Martin says he just came up with a big, revealing twist on a long-time character that he never previously considered. “This is going to drive your readers crazy,” he teases, “but I love it. I’m still weighing whether to go that direction or not. It’s a great twist. It’s easy to do things that are shocking or unexpected, but they have to grow out of characters. They have to grow out of situations. Otherwise, it’s just being shocking for being shocking. But this is something that seems very organic and natural, and I could see how it would happen. And with the various three, four characters involved… it all makes sense. But it’s nothing I’ve ever thought of before. And it’s nothing they can do in the show, because the show has already—on this particular character—made a couple decisions that will preclude it, where in my case I have not made those decisions.”

[path12]

Originally Posted by JAG

Nice, thanks for the tip. Decent chapter, but a rather slow one considering the increase in pace that needs to happen soon.

I was relieved to see that it is a chapter with detailed feast descriptions. Those are so rare!

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

'Game of Thrones' author George R.R. Martin determined to finish book by 2016 | EW.com

George determined to finished Winds by 2016. But this is the big bombshell I think (though I think we knew it'd be like two different stories when the show met and overtook the books):

Good, I am assured that the book will be out no later than 2018

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

'Game of Thrones' author George R.R. Martin determined to finish book by 2016 | EW.com

George determined to finished Winds by 2016. But this is the big bombshell I think (though I think we knew it'd be like two different stories when the show met and overtook the books):

Martin is so predictable. Just seems like he is catfishing his readers. I refuse to read anymore of his books till he has completed the set of books remaining even if it is 10 more years. I will watch the show and sleep fine at night.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

'Game of Thrones' author George R.R. Martin determined to finish book by 2016 | EW.com

George determined to finished Winds by 2016. But this is the big bombshell I think (though I think we knew it'd be like two different stories when the show met and overtook the books):

Does that quote sound like he's in the final stages of TWoW to you? Me neither.

[IlliniCub]

Plot Twist: He's actually releasing the book as he writes it and we've read all the chapters he has completed so far.

[flere-imsaho]

That's actually my running assumption.

[ISiddiqui]

I am re-reading Storm of Swords and the Davos chapters just upset me over how show-Stannis has been portrayed. Book-Stannis is such a better character. He seems to be the only person in power willing to listen to people who disagree with him if they make sense (that tends to be Davos) and isn't shy about arguing with Melissandre. I just finished the chapter where they are discussing Edric Storm being sacrificed to perhaps raise a dragon (or whatever it was going to do). Davos is, of course, against it. Stannis not only lets him speak his peace, but gives a great argument for potentially sacrificing Edric (Stannis is reluctant however and even snaps at his wife for being so eager to kill Edric) - basically that there are hundreds or boys and girls in Westeros, if one persons's death can save the realm, it may be worth doing. You don't really see this nuance, or struggle in the show-Stannis. It diminishes the character greatly, IMO.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I am re-reading Storm of Swords and the Davos chapters just upset me over how show-Stannis has been portrayed. Book-Stannis is such a better character. He seems to be the only person in power willing to listen to people who disagree with him if they make sense (that tends to be Davos) and isn't shy about arguing with Melissandre. I just finished the chapter where they are discussing Edric Storm being sacrificed to perhaps raise a dragon (or whatever it was going to do). Davos is, of course, against it. Stannis not only lets him speak his peace, but gives a great argument for potentially sacrificing Edric (Stannis is reluctant however and even snaps at his wife for being so eager to kill Edric) - basically that there are hundreds or boys and girls in Westeros, if one persons's death can save the realm, it may be worth doing. You don't really see this nuance, or struggle in the show-Stannis. It diminishes the character greatly, IMO.

Stannis is a very nuanced character that too many people dismiss as being awful. He's much maligned, but oft unfairly so.

The show is often going to struggle to pull off nuance like that. There are just too many characters and not nearly enough time in a 10 hour season to do it.

As a result, the show is much more streamlined than the books, more often you do lose quite a bit, but sometimes it's really for the best.

While it's still early yet, I much prefer the idea of Tyrion getting to Mereen and meeting Dany (if he actually does get there) than having him meander about, meet up with a bunch of characters who aren't all that interesting, playing games of cyvasse, meeting Penny (ugh!), etc, etc.

I also much prefer Brianne actually finding Arya and running into Sansa rather than having her meander all around Westeros looking for Sansa in places we know she isn't. Yeah, those scenes show the horrors of war on the smallfolk, but we've already seen plenty of that.

So, in some ways, the show is much, much less than the books, because you lose a lot of nuance, complexity, and history, much of which is very cool and I love. In some ways the show is better, because it cuts out a lot of bloat (much of which fills books four and five).

I really don't spend too much time comparing them anymore. I view them as two separate, yet related, things to be enjoyed on their own merits. So long as the show stays true to the characters and plot - which I think it does a remarkable job of much more often than not - I'm not going to get upset.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

So long as the show stays true to the characters and plot - which I think it does a remarkable job of much more often than not - I'm not going to get upset.

In reading more of Storm of Swords, I think this part rankles. It really isn't staying true to the character of Stannis. BookStannis really, really, really cares about the war against the Others. ShowStannis thinks it's somewhat important, but the crown is more so - kind of opposite of his famous quote in the books (the one with saving the realm and becoming king). I'm right before when Jon gets elected Lord Commander, and its Stannis who has the idea to settle the wildlings on the Gift, so that they may be able to help fight the Others. Also he's proposing to man all the castles on the Wall.

The show would rather Stannis be kind of a strange heartless bastard (to a point - the Shireen scene was very moving).

Though I will say, I'm curious - the whole child of an old King who has been cast into exile but comes back in a blaze of glory to retake their throne seems a bit too cliche for GRRM to follow through, doesn't it? I'm starting to think more and more than Dany doesn't take the Iron Throne after thinking for a long time that she would.

Oh, and speaking of show, Tyrion is still going to be taking a long ass time to get to Meereen - now on foot... with Jorah. And they still showed the Stone Men attack... maybe Penny is next?

[Grover]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I am re-reading Storm of Swords and the Davos chapters just upset me over how show-Stannis has been portrayed. Book-Stannis is such a better character. He seems to be the only person in power willing to listen to people who disagree with him if they make sense (that tends to be Davos) and isn't shy about arguing with Melissandre. I just finished the chapter where they are discussing Edric Storm being sacrificed to perhaps raise a dragon (or whatever it was going to do). Davos is, of course, against it. Stannis not only lets him speak his peace, but gives a great argument for potentially sacrificing Edric (Stannis is reluctant however and even snaps at his wife for being so eager to kill Edric) - basically that there are hundreds or boys and girls in Westeros, if one persons's death can save the realm, it may be worth doing. You don't really see this nuance, or struggle in the show-Stannis. It diminishes the character greatly, IMO.

Was the Edric sacrifice about a dragon or another of those creepy ghost babies she pushes from her loins?

Book Stannis is so much better.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Grover

Was the Edric sacrifice about a dragon or another of those creepy ghost babies she pushes from her loins?

Book Stannis is so much better.

They didn't really go into too much detail on the Edric sacrifice, but it was supposed to win them the war. So I think it was more likely dragon - or all the Lannisters would magically die or something .

[Grover]

I don't remember Jorah getting Greyscale either... I thought it was someone else for some reason

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Grover

I don't remember Jorah getting Greyscale either... I thought it was someone else for some reason

They switched characters on that one.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

They switched characters on that one.

Ok, I thought so.

Spoiler

Jon Connington, right?

[ISiddiqui]

Jon Connington had Greyscale, but IIRC, he had found a way to stop the spread of it himself.

[ISiddiqui]

Grover, this is the book series thread (we discuss the show as well though)... you don't need to spoiler

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Jon Connington had Greyscale, but IIRC, he had found a way to stop the spread of it himself.

It has been a couple years since I read ADOD (at least), but I don't recall him stopping the Greyscale. My distinct impression is that he was trying to get things done before he can no longer handle matters because of it.

I do think he did some things to slow the spread down, though (and my memory is sketchy).

[ISiddiqui]

Ah, yes you are right. He's got it slowed down but not stopped.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

In reading more of Storm of Swords, I think this part rankles. It really isn't staying true to the character of Stannis. BookStannis really, really, really cares about the war against the Others. ShowStannis thinks it's somewhat important, but the crown is more so - kind of opposite of his famous quote in the books (the one with saving the realm and becoming king). I'm right before when Jon gets elected Lord Commander, and its Stannis who has the idea to settle the wildlings on the Gift, so that they may be able to help fight the Others. Also he's proposing to man all the castles on the Wall.

The show would rather Stannis be kind of a strange heartless bastard (to a point - the Shireen scene was very moving).

Though I will say, I'm curious - the whole child of an old King who has been cast into exile but comes back in a blaze of glory to retake their throne seems a bit too cliche for GRRM to follow through, doesn't it? I'm starting to think more and more than Dany doesn't take the Iron Throne after thinking for a long time that she would.

Oh, and speaking of show, Tyrion is still going to be taking a long ass time to get to Meereen - now on foot... with Jorah. And they still showed the Stone Men attack... maybe Penny is next?

The last two episodes have done a remarkable job with Stannis. In a few very short scenes they've really helped round him out. As a result of the medium and time constraints they are never going to be able to create as complex a character on screen as Martin does in the books, but I think they have really done a fantastic job with Stannis in these last two episodes.

Your criticism would be warranted a few weeks ago, now, not so much.

If Penny shows up, I'm out.

And if they start playing cyvasse, I'll punch myself in the dick.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

They switched characters on that one.

Hopefully, because neither Jon Connington nor "Aegon" make an appearance in the show.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

The last two episodes have done a remarkable job with Stannis. In a few very short scenes they've really helped round him out. As a result of the medium and time constraints they are never going to be able to create as complex a character on screen as Martin does in the books, but I think they have really done a fantastic job with Stannis in these last two episodes.

Your criticism would be warranted a few weeks ago, now, not so much

I think two episodes aren't enough to reverse most people's views on Stannis Baratheon. And some of Stannis's good ideas have been given to Jon. And they've taken out his best lines. Stannis left the Wall without telling Jon that he's realized that he is to save the realm in order to become king.

[Chief Rum]

Since this is the book thread, I'll say this about the show direction over these next few weeks--I like the direction we're going on what we're going to see.

We already know from still shots from on set that they actually have Danyraes and Tyrion together in scenes, so presumeably he gets there before the dragon pit scene with Dany and Drogon. If that does put Tyrion in the position of Ser Barristan after that event happens, awesome.

We should start to see Arya's ramping up in training as a Faceless Man soon, including her blindness phase, which I found fascinating in the book.

And we're entering unknown territory when it comes to Brienne-Sansa-Theon (does Theon now save Sansa? Does Brienne?). Do we get the hinted at battle for Winterfell this season? And then we still have the Kingslayer and Bronn in Dorne. I still have no idea where they're going with that, but I'm intrigued to see it.

Are we going to see Jon's book fate played out on screen this season?

There is still a lot to look forward to, and I'm glad they're taking the more interesting stuff and streamlining it around all the crap that was in AFOC and ADOD.

[Grover]

Absolutely loved the blindness phase.

I hope they allude to her being a warg with the cat behind the master.

I also think we will see Jon Snow's end this season. Was it Thorne who does him in?

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Grover

I also think we will see Jon Snow's end this season. Was it Thorne who does him in?

I'm waiting for episode 9 or 10's title to be announced. 10 bucks says it'll be "For the Watch".

And if memory serves, it was a whole crowd of folks who got him, Caesar style.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Grover

Absolutely loved the blindness phase.

I hope they allude to her being a warg with the cat behind the master.

I also think we will see Jon Snow's end this season. Was it Thorne who does him in?

If I recall right, there were many who did him in. I can't recall if Thorne was part of it, or if he was killed off (in the books, a lot of the Night's Watch peeps kinda run together for me--the show does a lot better for me at setting them out).

His end is still a mystery, right? I haven't read any of GRRM's sample chapters for Winds of Winter. I would hope he wouldn't have just sent out a chapter undoing that cliffhanger before the actual book release.

[NobodyHere]

I have to believe that Jon gets brought back to life by Melisandre.

And it was Bowen Marsh who initially stabs Jon.

[JAG]

It wasn't Thorne, Jon sent him to one of the other castles.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I think two episodes aren't enough to reverse most people's views on Stannis Baratheon. And some of Stannis's good ideas have been given to Jon. And they've taken out his best lines. Stannis left the Wall without telling Jon that he's realized that he is to save the realm in order to become king.

Based on a lot of the internet chatter I've heard, the last two episodes have, indeed, reversed most people's views on Stannis.

The show's doing right by him.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I have to believe that Jon gets brought back to life by Melisandre.

And it was Bowen Marsh who initially stabs Jon.

Thank you on the second comment there.

What are the odds of Jon warging into Ghost?

I find the Melisandre resurrection more likely, a la Thoros of Myr though.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Based on a lot of the internet chatter I've heard, the last two episodes have, indeed, reversed most people's views on Stannis.

The show's doing right by him.

No it isn't.

I've still heard plenty of folks say something like, ok, Stannis is better, but I still have no idea why you people like him (there is a very, very strong, though admittedly minority, contingent of book-fans who are completely on Stannis's side).

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by JAG

It wasn't Thorne, Jon sent him to one of the other castles.

He sent him ranging in the books.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

No it isn't.

I've still heard plenty of folks say something like, ok, Stannis is better, but I still have no idea why you people like him (there is a very, very strong, though admittedly minority, contingent of book-fans who are completely on Stannis's side).

So, I imagine the percentage of book readers who really like and appreciate Stannis is probably about equal to the percentage of show watchers now. A small minority.

So, just about right!

I like him well enough in both. Like most other characters in both the book and show, he's flawed. He has his good points and his not so good points.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

So, I imagine the percentage of book readers who really like and appreciate Stannis is probably about equal to the percentage of show watchers now. A small minority.

Not really. It's actually fairly sizable tbh. "Stannis the Mannis" is all over forums that deal with the books.

When I see a number of show watchers go, "Screw Dany, we're for Stannis", that's when I'll think the show has created fans of Stannis in similar ways.

Though, in addition the show has shortchanged why Stannis is such a great character - in that he actually does get that the main war is with the Others, not for the crown.

[Chief Rum]

Issue with the Melisandre theory for Jon in the show is that Melisandre appears to have left Castle Black with Stannis and his army. So she won't be around when he gets stabbed (unless they somehow devise some way of getting her back there).

So either the show is doing this differently than the book (a very key difference if so, IMO), or the method by which Jon remains with us doesn't require Melisandre (the Ghost theory would seem to be possible).

I also wonder if somehow Bran (remember him?) is worked into this Jon storyline, where he is a part of Jon coming back.

All of this assumes Jon is coming back. If he is truly dead, I'll probably punch GRRM in the face if I ever meet him.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Though, in addition the show has shortchanged why Stannis is such a great character - in that he actually does get that the main war is with the Others, not for the crown.

Didn't he say just that last night? I thought he did. I might be mis-remembering though.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Didn't he say just that last night? I thought he did. I might be mis-remembering though.

I feel like his whole plan in the show right now is to win back Winterfell and unite the north so he can take the crown.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Didn't he say just that last night? I thought he did. I might be mis-remembering though.

He didn't say it in so many words. But he more or less suggested he was aware that this is a major issue (and encouraged Samwell to continue his research into it to help with the coming fight).

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Didn't he say just that last night? I thought he did. I might be mis-remembering though.

He has never indicated that he thought the Others were the biggest war. Show-Stannis is all about the Crown.

Also, for some fun go do image search on "Stannis the Mannis" - book fans have basically done a Chuck Norris type of thing with Stannis.

[ISiddiqui]

Anyway, since I said above that I think Dany winning the Iron Throne is way too obvious an ending, I hold out hope that Stannis ends up ruling in the end.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

He has never indicated that he thought the Others were the biggest war. Show-Stannis is all about the Crown.

Huh. That's not really how I see Show-Stannis, but apparently people see it differently.

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Also, for some fun go do image search on "Stannis the Mannis" - book fans have basically done a Chuck Norris type of thing with Stannis.

I will! Thanks!

[Coffee Warlord]

If Show Tyrion and Mormont run into Penny en route now, I'm going to cry.

[ISiddiqui]

They left it open for it .

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

They left it open for it .

I read ahead for the next three episode capsules (the TV episode descriptions only) and one of them mentions Jorah and Tyrion meeting up with slavers!

[ISiddiqui]

LOL!

The relief of people saying Tyrion wasn't going go on a long boat ride turns to ash .

I think people would rather Griff and Young Griff be included if there was no Penny .