Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Okay, lots of little tidbit info out there in the past few days it seems.

-- The strangest one might be the announcement of the latest addition to the WWE creative team: Freddie Prinze, Jr.

I was SO sure that was some kind of fake-news experiment by some trashy wrestling news site. Wow. Hey, maybe he'll be good. Just surreal though.

It's been a while since we've seen Goldust. It seems like the WWE thing to do to have some kind of mini-family angle with Cody, especially with Dusty under contract also.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Note to WWE creative ... don't let Matt Hardy talk.

Or Batista. Or Jeff Hardy. Or Lance Cade. Or Cody Rhodes. Or Kane. Or CM Punk. Or....a lot of other guys. If Bobby Lashley was still around, he'd top the list.

Seriously, I'm an admitted Batista "hater", but he is horrible. When he was on this week's RAW talking to Cena, he couldn't finish a sentence without stuttering or sounding like a roided-up robot. Damn, I dislike that guy.

[RawIsDan]

Actually, I don't think Punk is bad on the mic at all.

It's too bad they let booker go otherwise they could grab dusty and reunite them. They were great together.

[duckman]

This is interesting:

The following statement, buried in WWE's quarterly stock filing, could have major future ramifications.

"Levy et al. On July 24, 2008, we were served with a summons from three of our former talent purporting to be on behalf of themselves and a class of similarly situated persons. The lawsuit alleges breach of contract and unjust enrichment arising from our treating them as independent contractors rather than employees, which the plaintiffs allege is an erroneous classification. We have not formally responded to the suit but intend to deny any liability for claims asserted against us and to defend vigorously against the suit."

The Levy being mentioned here is Scott "Raven" Levy who is apparently challenging WWE's classification of wrestlers. WWE classifies its wrestlers as "independent contractors" which allows them to not have to pay benefits and do other things that they otherwise would have to do for "employees." This has been a topic that has been debated for years. Some think WWE is grievously at fault while others think they do just enough to get away with it. If the court sides with Levy, it would lead to major financial ramifications for WWE.

Credit: WrestlingObserver.com

hxxp://www.411mania.com/wrestling/news/82335/Raven-Lawsuit-Challenges-WWE//s-Wrestler-Classification.htm

[JonInMiddleGA]

TNA PPV crowd in Trenton is being brutal to Consequences Creed, cheering Petey Williams hard and booing Creed. Given how reactive TNA is reportedly being to single event reactions I'm afraid they'll kill what was supposed to be a push for Creed. I think they sort of monster push he was rumored to be headed for is premature but I don't want one crowd to kill the guy's career either. He's a good kid, smart & mature for his age (wouldn't sign his TNA contract unless they agreed to let him finish his last course work & graduate college), and if he's handled right he can be a decent part of the roster for a number of years.

edit to add: "Fire Russo" chant coming toward the end of the Lethal/Sonjay match.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Styles beats Angle, Sting lays out AJ afterwards.

Looks like Russo won the argument & we'll get another attempt to turn Sting heel.

[Noop]

This PPV has been okay.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Well, didn't see that finish coming.

Of course, since it appears that Styles & Angle/Trigg will remain engaged for a while, looks like we're going to end up with Joe being the only guy under 40 in the title picture.

[DeToxRox]

Who does Joe even have to face now?

Roode and Storm are tag champs
Angle is presumably taking time off
Styles and Sting look to have some angle going
Jarrett and Booker look to have some angle going
Tomko got canned
So that leaves .. Nash?

[molson]

LOL at guys like Tomko that get fired for "bad attitude", as if there's anywhere else for him to work.

I also saw that Chris Harris got cut loose from WWE after two appearances. His demise was related to fast food rather than bad attitude.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Who does Joe even have to face now?

Roode and Storm are tag champs
Angle is presumably taking time off
Styles and Sting look to have some angle going
Jarrett and Booker look to have some angle going
Tomko got canned
So that leaves .. Nash?

Next month seems like Joe & Jarrett (and maybe Nash) vs Booker & Sting (& ?)
Nash turns (which I'm convinced will happen, to reunite the Wolfpack).

October leads to Joe vs Sting for the title with Sting winning while Jarrett takes out Nash (or Booker), with probably Cage (or maybe Matt Morgan) taking care of the 3rd heel.

November or December leads to Jarrett taking the title from Sting (as his contract winds down & he heads toward retirement) and retaining it against Booker as Sting probably comes to his senses to retire as a face.

By then we'll have finished the combinations of Angle/Styles/Trigg and we can go into the new year with Angle taking the belt off of Jarrett.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

LOL at guys like Tomko that get fired for "bad attitude", as if there's anywhere else for him to work.

Actually it seems as though his Japan work was a big part of the issue for TNA.
And Tomko seems to have preferred it to TNA at the moment.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Actually it seems as though his Japan work was a big part of the issue for TNA.
And Tomko seems to have preferred it to TNA at the moment.

I've never seen anything remotely redeeming about his work in the ring, but if he can make a living there, good for him.

[SnDvls]

ROH is having a buy 3 get 1 free DVD sale....what 4 DVDs would you all recomend. I have never seen a ROH show living in AZ.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

ROH is having a buy 3 get 1 free DVD sale....what 4 DVDs would you all recomend. I have never seen a ROH show living in AZ.

Supercard of Honor III
Better Than Our Best
Joe vs Punk II
Manhattan Mayhem

[chrisj]

Originally Posted by duckman

"Levy et al. On July 24, 2008, we were served with a summons from three of our former talent purporting to be on behalf of themselves and a class of similarly situated persons. The lawsuit alleges breach of contract and unjust enrichment arising from our treating them as independent contractors rather than employees, which the plaintiffs allege is an erroneous classification. We have not formally responded to the suit but intend to deny any liability for claims asserted against us and to defend vigorously against the suit."

The Levy being mentioned here is Scott "Raven" Levy who is apparently challenging WWE's classification of wrestlers. WWE classifies its wrestlers as "independent contractors" which allows them to not have to pay benefits and do other things that they otherwise would have to do for "employees." This has been a topic that has been debated for years. Some think WWE is grievously at fault while others think they do just enough to get away with it. If the court sides with Levy, it would lead to major financial ramifications for WWE.

So why would Levy, etc sue the WWE about this? This seems like something the IRS/CRA would be more interested in. And while I don't know how often the IRS would look at this, I am confident that the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) has audited the WWE about this in the past.

I don't know what the US rules are - but in Canada they look at four factors (I assume the US is similar):

- Control
- Ownership of tools
- Chance of profit / risk of loss
- Integration

I think in each of these areas, there are arguements for/against the treatment of the wrestlers as independent contractors. But honestly, I think Levy, etc are right - the wrestlers should likely be employees.

With that being said, why would they want to be employees? There are likely some better tax planning opportunities if they were independent contractors (again, in Canada), so unless the rules are significantly different in the states... ?

[Neon_Chaos]

OH MY GOD!

IT'S BACK!

SCOOPTHIS ARCHIVES!

THEY'RE BACK!

*cry*

hxxp://www.scoopthis.com/

[Neon_Chaos]

One of the best articles ever.

hxxp://www.scoopthis.com/pages/article.cgi?file=articles/wrestling/032_wwfsatan.htm

[JonInMiddleGA]

tnawrestlingnews.com is reporting (and I imagine others are as well) that Mick Foley has reached an agreement with TNA.

[Flasch186]

wow, I like Mick when he plays Cactus Jack...

[molson]

Wow - I wonder what went down between Foley and Vince. Or maybe he just wants a full-time paycheck but doesn't want to travel.

I look at TNA's roster and it just looks like they have more than enough to be competitive with the WWE. Yet they still come off as so bush league and wacky. They just need the right direction.

[TazFTW]

So I have ESPNEWS in the background and I hear the following, "I'm JW Stewart and sitting next to me is Jonathan Coachman."

I knew he did pbp for some college football games but I had no idea ESPN hired him. He's pretty reserved doing sports highlights.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Charlie Haas is almost certainly about to get his ass beat ... but his JBL imitation was pretty funny.
Having him dress to the part, right down to the trunks & boots, was a great finish to the bit.
And a win (even by countout) was an unexpected bonus.

[Comey]

Coach is a good newsman with a pretty diverse background. WWE probably served him well for him being able to live in the moment and still be able to do his job well.

Charlie Haas, by the way, appears to be McMahon's favorite whipping boy. It is said that McMahon *hates* Haas, but likes to keep him around because he can put him through whatever he wants.

[Flasch186]

why "hates"?

[Comey]

I've read that McMahon finds Charlie Haas to be the most boring person he's ever had in the ring, or something. His style is like watching paint dry (that's a direct quote).

[molson]

Dibiase/Rhodes/Manu sure didn't inherent their fathers' ring presence. Those guys are boring as hell.

Charisma is such a rare quality these days. It's strange - in the 80s WWF, EVERYONE had it. Everyone was larger than life. A few weeks ago on RAW, Jim Duggan came out and cut a promo that was better than what 95% of the current guys can do (and he was never considered a great mic guy even in his prime).

Why is everyone today so bland? TNA and the indies too.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by molson

Dibiase/Rhodes/Manu sure didn't inherent their fathers' ring presence. Those guys are boring as hell.

Charisma is such a rare quality these days. It's strange - in the 80s WWF, EVERYONE had it. Everyone was larger than life. A few weeks ago on RAW, Jim Duggan came out and cut a promo that was better than what 95% of the current guys can do (and he was never considered a great mic guy even in his prime).

Why is everyone today so bland? TNA and the indies too.

I blame it on scriptwriters.

Back in the day, they'd just get bullet points and be able to let their personalities shine through.

Now? It's all cookie-cutter scripts.

[bulletsponge]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

I blame it on scriptwriters.

Back in the day, they'd just get bullet points and be able to let their personalities shine through.

Now? It's all cookie-cutter scripts.

+1

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

Why is everyone today so bland? TNA and the indies too.

While the aforementioned scripts are certainly one of the main reasons, there's another factor that gets overlooked more than it should. That would be the reality that most of the workers today haven't spent nearly as much time in the ring or in the studio as their predecessors.

In decades past, many workers were going 200+ nights a year. Today, most indy guys are lucky if they can find 100 dates that even pay enough to cover expenses. So the relative scarcity of shows with a lack of local TV -- largely gone are the days of shows being taped for individual markets, when places like Memphis, Nashville, Knoxville, and Chattanooga all had their own TV, each getting their own promos, etc -- and you have a situation where today's workers simply haven't spent nearly as much time on the mic. And as bad as a lot of them are, they aren't likely to get many opportunities to get better, so it'll probably only get worse as time goes on.

[Flasch186]

If WWE were smart they'd train in this dept. as well as the in ring skills...the difference between a Rock and a Shelton Benjamin is their skills on the miggidity miggidity mic ya'll.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The new game TNA Impact video game from Midway (at least the PS2 version) is actually even worse than the reviews & previews had led me to believe.

Average graphics with some truly bizarre gameplay. Haven't seen this many phantom punches and completely unaware wrestlers in a long time. Watching my son play for a bit, I particularly liked watching Booker stand completely still with no reaction at all long enough for Joe to connect with the third swing with a chair. I also liked noticing in the first five minutes that when Angle tossed AJ out of the ring, he actually turned his back to his opponent & stayed in the same position no matter what Styles did until a button was pushed. I think you could have actually gotten back to the ring without Angle even turning around if you kept your fingers off the other buttons while moving. The long distance stationary camera angles that pop up at times are amusing too, it's like playing the game while sitting in the nosebleed section.

This is unbelievably bad. Instead of Impact, I'm thinking they should have called it Maxmium Wretsling.

edit to add: At the moment, I'm watching him win matches in the first chapter of the story mode needing to do little more than a move or two to get his opponent on the ground then stomping him repeatedly until his health is low enough to pin him.

[JonInMiddleGA]

TNA PPV tonight, having one of those WWE bad luck runs I guess.

-- Booker T, scheduled for the main event, not expected to attend due to travel issues getting a flight out of Houston. Daivari questionable for the same reason.

-- James Storm, scheduled for a tag title defense, questionable for tonight after suffering an apparent concussion at a house show last night. Jackie Moore questionable after losing three teeth in a separate incident in the same house show match.

-- Recently signed talent Akira Raijin collapsed during his house show match last night. Condition unclear, some speculation that there may have been a subdural hematoma, possibly pre-existing.

-- Kevin Nash reportedly not backstage (and not scripted for tonight), furthering speculation that he's WWE bound shortly.

-- Rumors have resumed about the condition of Kurt Angle becoming a concern once again.

-- Knockouts Angelina Love, Velvet Sky, ODB, and Salinas all have expiring contracts in the next 30-45 days. Not much concern about ODB & Salinas being poached but definitely concerns that The Beautiful People could be lured by Vince same as Gail Kim was.

Also, some announcement of Mick Foley's debut expected, not clear whether it'll be via video, in person, or what.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

edit to add: At the moment, I'm watching him win matches in the first chapter of the story mode needing to do little more than a move or two to get his opponent on the ground then stomping him repeatedly until his health is low enough to pin him.

I'm having a different experience on the 360 version. It's a reversal fest, and really tough to win even at the easiest levels in story mode.

I am a little baffled at the generic movesets that everybody has... seems like the default holds which you use most of the time are virtually the same for every wrestler.

My son does enjoy the game though so I have vowed to play through story mode and unlock as many characters as I can for him.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Although I'll be relieved to see the Sonjay/Lethal/Val storyline end (maybe?), they've done a nice job of being creative with this laddermatch. Can't say I've ever seen a guy stood on his head & stuck between the rungs of the ladder then hit with a baseball slide (although Sonjay actually hit the ladder not the head).

One of at least a half dozen different things they've done with the ladders so far tonight.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Crowd is really hating the Trigg/Styles "MMA" match. Chant of "We Want Wrestling" started less than 5 minutes into it.

edit: By round two, the chant has become "This is bull shit"

[SirFozzie]

Apparently the Comcast feed had the "MMA" match replaced mid match by lesbian porn, for about five minutes.

The reviewer I'm reading the review from gave the MMA match 1 star, and the porn 4...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Apparently the Comcast feed had the "MMA" match replaced mid match by lesbian porn, for about five minutes.

Heh. Fits nicely with Don West's comments about Skinimax earlier in the night (when Val celebrated with Sonjay)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Addition by subtraction AFAIC but ...
TNA News: Breaking News: TNA Knockout Quits
Shelly "Salinas" Martinez is through with TNA. She quit the company.

It was announced during tonight's No Surrender pay-per-view broadcast that Jacqueline had attacked Salinas backstage. That's the storyline reason for her departure from the company.

Martinez was recently tapped for a role in an Italian film that would have conflicted with her bookings for TNA. Reportedly, she offered to give up the film role if TNA increased her pay, but they refused. As a result, she handed in her notice to the company. Her contract was due to expire next month anyway.

TNA may have tried to get her to come to the pay-per-view and/or TV this week to finish the storyline, but when that didn't happen, they simply said that she was attacked off camera.

[Flasch186]

It seems to me from your posts, that TNA is spinning out of control.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

It seems to me from your posts, that TNA is spinning out of control.

Eh, maybe a little more than usual but on the whole it's nothing new I think, just more of the same Russo-Jarrett-Mantell slide.

My son talks about that quite a bit, how much TNA has changed since he's been watching. My gripes would match his pretty well.

-- The X-Division is reduced to an afterthought. It made TNA as much as anything & more than most things.
-- No more AMW, no more Styles/Daniels, no more LowKi.
-- AJ not in the main title picture, MCMG reduced to bottom tier status
-- Match to angle ratio is much lower
-- Too little emphasis on new talent and far far too much emphasis on "other people's talent"

I'd also add too many feuds that we're happy to see end & not enough feuds that we actually enjoy watching.

About the only bright spot in months has been the success of the knockouts and even that seems to be in jeopardy right now. With Gail seemingly gone and The Beautiful People at least possible, all that would be left are Kong, ODB, Roxi, and Taylor. That's basically half strength, and they'll either have to reload quickly or watch it grow stale in a hurry.

I might give them credit for getting Matt Morgan over a little bit (although he's not my cup of tea) and I believe making Tomko rise above cringeworthy deserves some praise too (although we see how that worked out).

Bottom line is that there's nobody booking anything that ought to be. The company has pretty much soured from the top down, as it's run by an idiot and booked by incompetents. They desperately need to take a look at WCW and see how that formula turns out.

edit to add: The irony of my complaints is that they've reportedly gone from being in the red to being in the black. But they've also changed the business model quite a bit over that time. I can't help but think that the profit would be higher if they actually, you know, managed to not suck when they're most visible.

[DeToxRox]

TNA has done so much awful booking in the past, it is finally coming to bite them.

Joe vs Sting is a match people want to see, except they're trying to make it Face vs Face and only giving it 3 weeks of build, which is retarded because Sting is at the point where everyone will cheer him, so now Joe is going to be boo'd for the most part.

LAX was given a huge push, and now have jobbed out two PPV's in a row, which is fine, because I like Beer Money, but now there are no teams who can really feud with them with any credibility left. MCMG have been start/stopped pushed then anyone I remember.

Abyss is the new Kane. He is a far better worker, but he has been booked so bad no one cares because you know he will lose no matter what.

Jay Lethal and Sonjay Dutt were put in the worst angle. Ever. And now I am sure it will continue with how their match ended.

Worst off, Christian, if you believe internet reports, is likely to go back to WWE when his deal is up mainly because why wallow in the midcard in TNA when you can have a run on top in WWE for a few months, make a few huge PPV bonuses, and then at least make more money midcarding there?

One last note ... Sting is about to headline this 3rd straight BFG without ever wrestling on a house show.

[Noop]

I thought the show last night was good. I really am appreciation women wrestling watching TNA because some of them are very good. TNA was much better off with the new guys oppose to bringing in the WWE cast offs. Christian won't ever amount to any in the WWE so I doubt he goes back but then again who knows.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Noop

I thought the show last night was good. I really am appreciation women wrestling watching TNA because some of them are very good. TNA was much better off with the new guys oppose to bringing in the WWE cast offs. Christian won't ever amount to any in the WWE so I doubt he goes back but then again who knows.

It makes sense he'd go back, as for one, it's a different climate there now since he left. Smaller guys are getting pushed more, and I am sure he noticed when CM Punk was World Champ, he's the same size as Christian.

Christian is an established WWE name with solid work ability and amazing mic skills. I would suspect him coming back, especially with these rash of injuries WWE has had in the last year plus to main eventers (Cena twice, Edge, HBK, Orton, HHH, Kennedy, etc) that having someone who you know will get over and can headline if needed is a plus.

Remember, before he left a lot of people were clamoring for a Cena/Christian feud, but he had the carpet pulled out from under him on that one.

As far as the Knockouts go, last night they looked awful. That Knockouts title match was painful to watch, and ODB vs Kong was way too dangerous because they looked really sloppy last night.

[DeToxRox]

Story is a brewing that Jeff Hardy may've had his third strike with an incident at an airport per Mike Johnson on PWI.


SERIOUS ISSUE FOR TOP WWE STAR
by Mike Johnson @ 7:06 PM on 9/17/2008

We were told earlier in the day that there was an issue with Jeff Hardy at the Nashville International Airport as he was heading home today from last night's Smackdown taping.

We are still triple sourcing the details because we want to be 100% correct before we go with this story. Watch the site for further updates.

We'll see tonight I assume.

[Noop]

Damn what is Jeff's problem? He is beginning to remind me of one of my workers in TEW, every single time I want to really give him a serious push he gets some backstage incident.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

It makes sense he'd go back, as for one, it's a different climate there now since he left. Smaller guys are getting pushed more, and I am sure he noticed when CM Punk was World Champ, he's the same size as Christian.

Christian is an established WWE name with solid work ability and amazing mic skills. I would suspect him coming back, especially with these rash of injuries WWE has had in the last year plus to main eventers (Cena twice, Edge, HBK, Orton, HHH, Kennedy, etc) that having someone who you know will get over and can headline if needed is a plus.

Remember, before he left a lot of people were clamoring for a Cena/Christian feud, but he had the carpet pulled out from under him on that one.

As far as the Knockouts go, last night they looked awful. That Knockouts title match was painful to watch, and ODB vs Kong was way too dangerous because they looked really sloppy last night.

CM Punk got screwed out of the World Title and was given a pretty sorry run as champion. The only person he beat was JBL and JBL is basically the jobber to the stars. Christian would be regulated to midcard duty with maybe a run at the US/Intercontinental title. That's just my opinion though I am trying to catch up with all that I have missed while I was away.(Few years I stopped watching.)

As for the knockouts I thought they did good because usually I could careless about women wrestling and I was actually enjoying their matches. I have no expectations so to me it came out good.

[PilotMan]

I saw Jeff Hardy at LaGuardia on Friday. He was by himself, and pretty much looked just like he does on TV, no shades, hat. I didn't see anyone else that recognized him, and would have said hi if I wasn't on the phone at the time.

[Maple Leafs]

So, how long until Kimbo Slice is in the WWE?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Ya gotta like a running Canadian Destroyer.