Chaos in Baltimore

[ISiddiqui]

I believe that WE can

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

But does that better their circumstances? I don't think it has, does or will. I think it turns more against them than for them. It makes their circumstances harder, not easier. And for what? The momentary high of throwing it in the face of "whitey" by breaking their black neighbor's shop window and taking a six pack?

Post #143 . It can be a catalyst depending. Let's hope it does.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I believe that WE can

And I believe that EVERYONE can. There's the difference.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Post #143 . It can be a catalyst depending. Let's hope it does.

No, I get that. I just don't believe it will work.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

And I believe that EVERYONE can. There's the difference.

Indeed it is. I don't think everyone can unless we join together and make it a priority to allow for that mobility and progress to be easier. I firmly believe that the "everyone can if they work hard enough" mentality has jettisoned all sorts of programs that increased social mobility and have resulted in the US having an incredibly low rate of social mobility today - European countries have beaten us in social mobility, if you want to fine a place where everyone may be able to.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

You never grew up in your brother's or sister's environment (assuming you have a sibling) despite having the same parents and living in the same house.

That probably sounds odd, but what I am saying is that everyone's "environment" is entirely personal to them. Those personal environments may share circumstances (such as your parents, your childhood home, your school, your hometown, etc.), but each is as individual to us as a fingerprint.

My point is that overcoming environment and circumstance is an absolute, not a relative truth. You don't need to have grown up in a bad part of Baltimore to understand the struggle of overcoming external factors you have no control over. The specific struggles are different, but the fact of needing to overcome them is the same for all of us.

Some can. But let's be honest, there aren't 150 million good jobs out there and the people who don't have one isn't because they've all given up.

[JPhillips]

Just look at lead poisoning in poor neighborhoods. Kids brought up in these environments are far more likely to have lead poisoning and that lowers IQ and increases violent and anti-social behavior.

Or look at malnutrition and the effects on cognitive and social development.

Or look at the low rates of reading aloud to young children and the effects on vocabulary and learning.

We don't all start at the same place, and it's unrealistic to expect everyone to be able to run the same race. Some are going to get out, but a lot won't, and that's not because they're all lazy. The single biggest determinant factor in adult poverty is whether or not you grew up poor. Hell, children of wealthy parents that drop out of college have better outcomes than children of poor parents that graduate college.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Indeed it is. I don't think everyone can unless we join together and make it a priority to allow for that mobility and progress to be easier. I firmly believe that the "everyone can if they work hard enough" mentality has jettisoned all sorts of programs that increased social mobility and have resulted in the US having an incredibly low rate of social mobility today - European countries have beaten us in social mobility, if you want to fine a place where everyone may be able to.

We can't all be winners. Some will try hard enough, and some won't. Some will succeed and some won't. It's the nature of our existence.

Just because I believe everyone can, doesn't mean I believe everyone will.

I can get behind programs that can facilitate greater social mobility, so that it increases opportunity for many. But I believe that it doesn't matter how socially mobile our environment is--there will always be haves and have nots.

Social mobility is not a one way road. As some rise, others fall.

Expanding that opportunity for all does two great things; it gives more people a better chance at moving up in the world, and it moves our society from an oligarchy toward a meritocracy. These are reasons enough to support that.

But it has to come with the understanding that we're not actually improving society itself. We're just evening out the odds for the individuals within it.

[nol]

Originally Posted by Raven

Haven't seen anyone say officers shouldn't be held accountable. In fact, I think that's far from what anyone is thinking.

And yes, I think you're right, no one was killed by the rioters (afaik), so no harm no foul?

Yeah, when the alternative is killing someone you bet your ass it's no harm no foul. Anyway, stay safe out there!

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

For example, it was 10:44 PM last night, after the riots started that the likely Democratic candidate for President tweeted:

Hillary Clinton on Twitter: "Tonight I am praying for peace & safety for all in Baltimore, & for Freddie Gray's family - his death is a tragedy that demands answers. -H"

The violence forced Clinton to address the issue, when she had not (at least through Twitter) done so before. "demands answers" - maybe it'll cause folks to think.

Cool, Hillary Clinton tweeted something. The neighborhood on the other hand turned shittier and ensured even less opportunity for the people living in it. But at least we can re-tweet something Hillary Clinton says.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Some can. But let's be honest, there aren't 150 million good jobs out there and the people who don't have one isn't because they've all given up.

"Giving up" comes in different styles. Some wholesale give up and go with what is easiest. Some do enough to improve themselves to a point, but there is still a point they won't go beyond. That is their "give up" point, if you will.

We all have a "give up" point.

I am not the manager of the companies in which I work. That is because I haven't done what I need to yet to get there. And if you reason that I never will, you can arguably say I have reached my "give up" point, at least with respect to those endeavors.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Just look at lead poisoning in poor neighborhoods. Kids brought up in these environments are far more likely to have lead poisoning and that lowers IQ and increases violent and anti-social behavior.

Or look at malnutrition and the effects on cognitive and social development.

Or look at the low rates of reading aloud to young children and the effects on vocabulary and learning.

We don't all start at the same place, and it's unrealistic to expect everyone to be able to run the same race. Some are going to get out, but a lot won't, and that's not because they're all lazy. The single biggest determinant factor in adult poverty is whether or not you grew up poor. Hell, children of wealthy parents that drop out of college have better outcomes than children of poor parents that graduate college.

Agreed, we don't all start in the same place. That's life. We can't control that.

But we can control our own decisions and what we choose to do and accept in our lives.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Raven

You're basically saying "good for them, they did the only thing they could - Riot!"

This just goes to show you how little some people think of the black community. People think they are all children that are incapable of accomplishing anything on their own. That it's OK if they riot because they can't possibly know better.

It's funny that the people who think black people are capable of success are deemed the racists while the one's who treat them as incompetent children are considered allies.

[tucker rocky]

Originally Posted by Raven

Haven't seen anyone say officers shouldn't be held accountable. In fact, I think that's far from what anyone is thinking.

And yes, I think you're right, no one was killed by the rioters (afaik), so no harm no foul?

When rioting, always have plenty of Pringles, Tea(Arizona Tea?), and T-paper.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's funny that the people who think black people are capable of success are deemed the racists while the one's who treat them as incompetent children are considered allies.

Amen to this. Having kids has taught me a few things. One of these is that people are capable of much more than we give them credit for. Another is that people will try to take the easy way out more often than not. Finally, if something is free, people will fight for that little free thing, far more than working to get something better (Let's just say. I hate grocery store samples...).

[nol]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

This just goes to show you how little some people think of the black community. People think they are all children that are incapable of accomplishing anything on their own. That it's OK if they riot because they can't possibly know better.

It's funny that the people who think black people are capable of success are deemed the racists while the one's who treat them as incompetent children are considered allies.

1. Disregard the people protesting peacefully; unrest builds.
2. Some small fraction of people riot; news coverage begins.
3. Come in with pithy remark about black people deserving the treatment they get if this is how they act, thus equating the actions of a very small minority with the entire group.
4. Wait for someone with half a brain to say that of course some small fraction of people placed into crappy circumstances will react negatively.
5. Call that person the "real racist," projecting your views of "rioters = entire community" onto them when it was the exact opposite of what they were talking about.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by tucker rocky

When rioting, always have plenty of Pringles, Tea(Arizona Tea?), and T-paper.

re: toilet paper

Is that the same guy that's in the AP photo taking the selfie?
Or was Scott's double rolls like THE thing in this round of rioting?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

That's a weakness in their own mind

Or in their character ... depending upon how you do/don't parse the two things.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

re: toilet paper

Is that the same guy that's in the AP photo taking the selfie?
Or was Scott's double rolls like THE thing in this round of rioting?

You eat two cans of Pringles and you're going to need the brand name stuff.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I think that the aftermath of the Ferguson riots started a conversation that wouldn't be taking place without them. More people are thinking about how racist police departments are causing social problems today. I think it's helped, regardless of the people it's turned off - 2 steps forward, 1 step back is still moving forward.

The racist police department led by a black man who answers to the black female mayor who works along side the predominately black city council led by another black man.

The reason this wasn't covered as heavily at first is because Freddie Gray was a piece of shit and we usually don't put up a lot of fuss when a piece of shit dies.

[ISiddiqui]

Or apparently we as a society don't put up much of a fuss when the police who are supposedly in charge of law and order may have murdered someone black.... unless its on video, of course.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's funny that the people who think black people are capable of success are deemed the racists while the one's who treat them as incompetent children are considered allies.

It's easier to say black people can be successful than do something about the obviously stacked deck they face. Then pat yourself on the back for how not racist you are.

The House I Live In is a great documentary and available on Netflix.

[miked]

Can we all agree (except for crazy Jon) that perhaps it's a shitty outcome? That no matter what somebody has done in the past, if a person who by all witness accounts was not breaking any laws at the time, ends up with a broken neck, crushed windpipe, and other injuries, it's a very bad thing?

[chinaski]

Originally Posted by miked

Can we all agree (except for crazy Jon) that perhaps it's a shitty outcome? That no matter what somebody has done in the past, if a person who by all witness accounts was not breaking any laws at the time, ends up with a broken neck, crushed windpipe, and other injuries, it's a very bad thing?

Nah, a burnt CVS is the real tragedy here!

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

It's easier to say black people can be successful than do something about the obviously stacked deck they face. Then pat yourself on the back for how not racist you are.

The House I Live In is a great documentary and available on Netflix.

What do you consider the stacked deck? What needs to be done to change things?

[Raven]

Protestors defying 10 PM curfew. This'll be interesting...

[Lathum]

There goes the tear gas

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What do you consider the stacked deck? What needs to be done to change things?

The Michael Brown thread was all about voter ID laws and voting but since all positions of authority in Baltimore are black now the narrative has changed. Lead paint I think was being thrown at the wall to see if it would stick somewhere in this thread.

[cuervo72]

It was also about police brutality and cops and local governments finding any excuse to criminalize and fine their citizenry. Both of which are apparently problems in Baltimore as well.

theconcourse.deadspin.com/baltimore-cop-i-blame-the-department-1700790548/

I blame the department and let me tell you why. They praise rookie officers. They’ll go around making a 100 arrests a month, and they’ll praise them. These rookie officers will do anything to get an arrest because they want more praise, you know what I’m saying? This is the result of it. They arrested Gray for some bullshit. That arrest was the weakest thing I’ve seen in my life. They do things like that and then what we see happening now happens. They can say anything to anyone to lock them up because they want an arrest. I don’t think they hurt him or messed him up, that’s what I truly think, but I do think they should have called a medic.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What do you consider the stacked deck? What needs to be done to change things?

One, you have to start having authority treat people with respect. That doesn't mean allowing criminals to run amok. But it does mean that you don't harass people because of their skin color and that people make it to jail without broken necks. Two, raise the damned minimum wage. You can't keep cutting the safety net and continue to allow companies to depress wages for people on the bottom of the totem pole. That's a deadly mixture. Three, education. You have to teach these kids that their decisions have ramifications and carry responsibility from committing crimes to having unprotected sex (it wouldn't hurt for white kids to learn these lessons as well).

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I really think that there's a lot of people who clearly don't understand the racial and power divides that are far more prevalent in Baltimore than any other place I've ever been and/or lived. There's very little in-between in regards to both. You're either in the war zone or outside the war zone that the gangs, dealers, and even police have created.

Prime example from when I was there was a place called Clifton Park. It's now a park and golf course where Johns Hopkins estate used to be. The family's victorian home is still on site along with the family graveyard.

1. The estate is surrounded by row houses containing some of the worst criminal activity in the city. The police literally have a police chopper in the air 24/7 above this neighborhood. As soon as one runs out of fuel, the next one takes off.

2. The golf course has carts that have GPS connected to the card engines. They are set up to immediately disable the cart engine as soon as the cart reaches the perimeter of the park. The reason being that opportunistic teens (much like the ones we're seeing now) would jump in the carts and take them as soon as you went over to hit your ball. In addition, there is a mandatory curfew of 30 minutes before sundown on the course. The reason being that the staff want to have everyone out and all equipment accounted for and locked up before sundown so they can leave the area.

3. The family cemetery is along a fairway on the golf course. The family cemetery is now totally empty. All bodies were reburied in a nearby cemetery. The reason? The locals knew that the family members were buried with jewelry. Opportunistic teens (see a trend here?) would actually dig up the bodies to retrieve that jewelry and would leave the opened coffins in the middle of the fairway to be found by staff in the morning.

4. You have to keep your clubs within arms reach while playing. Otherwise, they will disappear.

One other example I heard about was when "The Wire" was filming across the street from where we lived in the Johns Hopkins University area. The crew had noticed one of the actors roaming around doing a great job practicing his role as a drug dealer. After about 30 minues, they quickly figured out it wasn't an actor. It was a drug dealer trying to make sales on the set of The Wire. You can't make this stuff up.

There are a lot of good people in the Baltimore area and a lot of history and culture to be explored. With that said, it's a terribly scary example of what can happen when class and racial warfare reach their absolute worst.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by panerd

Lead paint I think was being thrown at the wall to see if it would stick somewhere in this thread.

Do you even bother reading? You do realize the context of the discussion when that was brought up?

But sure, lead paint abatement may be the single most cost effective poverty program we can do. We know it will decrease violent behavior and increase IQ.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

But sure, lead paint abatement may be the single most cost effective poverty program we can do. We know it will decrease violent behavior and increase IQ.

C'mon Man! Fuck science!

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

One, you have to start having authority treat people with respect. That doesn't mean allowing criminals to run amok. But it does mean that you don't harass people because of their skin color and that people make it to jail without broken necks. Two, raise the damned minimum wage. You can't keep cutting the safety net and continue to allow companies to depress wages for people on the bottom of the totem pole. That's a deadly mixture. Three, education. You have to teach these kids that their decisions have ramifications and carry responsibility from committing crimes to having unprotected sex (it wouldn't hurt for white kids to learn these lessons as well).

Why is the black police commissioner having his cops harass black people?

Not sure I agree on the minimum wage. If the problem Baltimore has is companies taking jobs elsewhere where it's cheaper, I'm not sure what making it even more expensive to operate in the city does. Maryland does have one of the higher minimum wage rates in the country and just passed a bill to raise it even more.

Agree on education, although I'm not sure what the government can do about that. Think a big chunk of that lays in the hands of parents. But mentioning that is of course racist.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

C'mon Man! Fuck science!

Har har. Left/right nonsense that you think exists in every thread. Is religion next? For the record I hate overzealous cops, hate police militarization, and hate drug laws but go on with your generalizations since they make you feel so much better. And keep defending the criminals that burn their cities down and completely bury any message you hope "outsiders" will get out it.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Why is the black police commissioner having his cops harass black people?

I don't think he is. Cops protect cops. Generations of behavior is tough to break.

Not sure I agree on the minimum wage. If the problem Baltimore has is companies taking jobs elsewhere where it's cheaper, I'm not sure what making it even more expensive to operate in the city does. Maryland does have one of the higher minimum wage rates in the country and just passed a bill to raise it even more.

The nation as a whole needs to raise the minimum wage. Not just Baltimore.

Agree on education, although I'm not sure what the government can do about that. Think a big chunk of that lays in the hands of parents. But mentioning that is of course racist.

Some of it lays in the hands of the parents. But in many situations, unfortunately, they aren't equipped to deal with it. So you have schools step in. It won't help immediately, but over the long run it will and then those programs can be scaled back as we create a generation of people who know how to parent.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by panerd

The Michael Brown thread was all about voter ID laws and voting but since all positions of authority in Baltimore are black now the narrative has changed. Lead paint I think was being thrown at the wall to see if it would stick somewhere in this thread.

The narrative hasn't changed. JPhillips has been talking about lead abatement for a long, long time. The Ferguson thread got to voter IDs because someone argued that they should be voting instead of protesting. I'm pretty sure there wasnt a single post in that thread saying that voter IDs are the only problem and nothing else should ever be discussed.

Also, Maryland doesn't have a voter ID law, which is probably bigger reason for the lack of argument on that issue than all the elected officials being black.

[muns]

is the black police commissioner having his cops harass black people?

He isn't, however, some bad police can be nasty no matter the racial divide. This sort of goes back to some racial things, but it also deals with what you can get away with the most (police wise). In West Baltimore where I live, there are a lot of black residents that are more afraid of the black cops than the white cops. Why? Because the black cops know they can do terrible stuff and just beat the hell out of people and know that the complaint wont go anywhere because its black on black. So the residents don't complain. This then gets swept under the rug and builds and builds and builds and then blows up like you saw 2 days ago. For whatever reason, some people (black and white) get their joy of beating other people and the power they have and its un-checked.

It's hard to explain this to the outside world because most of the police force and people in government are typically white. That's not the case here in Baltimore, and the police and the most powerful people in the government are black. This isn't all about Black on White, or White on Black (its part of it), but its about Residents vs. the police (who are both white and black) and why the government hasn't checked what goes on or change things. That then transitions into another very uncomfortable conversation because then it gets to well its mostly black leadership and black citizens. So how in the hell does it happen and why hasn't it changed.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

The nation as a whole needs to raise the minimum wage. Not just Baltimore.

Most people working minimum wage jobs are high school kids, so why exactly does it need to be raised?

If you want to cause a cascading effect of raising wages throughout the economy (labor negotiations, etc., if a kid flipping burgers makes X, I should get X times 5), then you get inflation as more dollars are chasing the same amount of goods.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by panerd

Har har. Left/right nonsense that you think exists in every thread. Is religion next? For the record I hate overzealous cops, hate police militarization, and hate drug laws but go on with your generalizations since they make you feel so much better. And keep defending the criminals that burn their cities down and completely bury any message you hope "outsiders" will get out it.

You actually WERE being anti-science though. This over-the-top defensive reaction indicates to me that you really don't have an argument and this is all just emotional to you.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Most people working minimum wage jobs are high school kids, so why exactly does it need to be raised?

Without diving into the policy debate, this is just incorrect. 24% of minimum wage earners as of December 31, 2013 were aged 16-19. Another quarter were aged 20-24. The other half older.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

then you get inflation as more dollars are chasing the same amount of goods.

Also, to be fair, if you were to index the minimum wage to inflation back in 1960, it'd be higher than the federal minimum wage is currently. So, the minimum wage is actually worth less and less every year as long as it stays static.

[stevew]

Most of the low wage workers I've encountered are overpaid at/near the minimum so I'm not sure what giving them $40-80 extra bucks a week would accomplish.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by stevew

Most of the low wage workers I've encountered are overpaid at/near the minimum so I'm not sure what giving them $40-80 extra bucks a week would accomplish.

It would reduce their reliance on government to begin with and maybe give them a reason to look forward to going to work.

[BillJasper]

I remember my first job back in 1987 with Hardee's. During the orientation they told everyone that with good attendance and hard work, everyone would be eligible for either a nickel or a dime raise in a year. I walked out and got a job at the local lawn and garden store.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

It would reduce their reliance on government to begin with and maybe give them a reason to look forward to going to work.

So you are saying we should expect minimum wage increases and tax cuts simultaneously? Interesting, I might get on board with that.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

I remember my first job back in 1987 with Hardee's. During the orientation they told everyone that with good attendance and hard work, everyone would be eligible for either a nickel or a dime raise in a year. I walked out and got a job at the local lawn and garden store.

If I am not mistaken in 1987 the min wage was 3.35. A 10 cent raise on 3.35 is a 2.9% bump.

I'd love a 3% raise every year....

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Dutch

So you are saying we should expect minimum wage increases and tax cuts simultaneously? Interesting, I might get on board with that.

Nope. But you would hopefully see a decrease in what is spent on the safety net. The savings could be used for other areas like education.

I love how people complain about people on the lower rung getting a free ride then complain constantly about having to pay taxes.

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

If I am not mistaken in 1987 the min wage was 3.35. A 10 cent raise on 3.35 is a 2.9% bump.

I'd love a 3% raise every year....

Yeah. I got a job at Swallen's (local retailer) in their lawn and garden for $3.85 an hour.

[BillJasper]

As Riots Follow Freddie Gray's Death in Baltimore, Calls for Calm Ring Hollow - The Atlantic

When nonviolence is preached as an attempt to evade the repercussions of political brutality, it betrays itself. When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse. When nonviolence is preached by the representatives of the state, while the state doles out heaps of violence to its citizens, it reveals itself to be a con. And none of this can mean that rioting or violence is "correct" or "wise," any more than a forest fire can be "correct" or "wise." Wisdom isn't the point tonight. Disrespect is. In this case, disrespect for the hollow law and failed order that so regularly disrespects the community.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

I love how people complain about people on the lower rung getting a free ride then complain constantly about having to pay taxes.

Not sure what the presumed hypocrisy is. There is no such thing as a free ride--that comes from taxpayers money. I don't think it's a big shock that people who pay taxes are also upset at how those taxes will be spent.