Microsoft Surface announcement

[jeff061]

I mean like you can drop to a command line(which I did to troubleshoot some network issues), create database connections, modify shares at the file leve, run perfomance monitoring, run powershell scripts. With all that, I'm not worried about the ability to install out of store apps being figured out.

And my main problem with Apple isn't so much forcing you to install apps from the store, it's the legit apps they squelch or delay from being published.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Oh, one note, the cheap keyboard cover without any tactile feedback is garbage. It's like typing on cardboard with a keyboard drawn on it in marker. Buy a cheap cover and an actual portable Bluetooth keyboard instead(Logitech makes a nice one) if you really want an alternative to the on screen KB.

Yeah, the "touch" keyboard is no bueno. Go for the "type" keyboard cover instead. It's thicker and heavier, but still attaches very nicely and has much better feel for typing. I've played around with both at an MS Store, and it's no-contest.

I wish the Surface Pro was more competitively priced, but either way, my wife is going to put the kibosh on getting on getting one until I can put forward a convincing argument that it's time to replace our current Win7 high-end laptop I got 3 years ago. Which probably means another year or two before I can shop for a Surface.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I mean like you can drop to a command line(which I did to troubleshoot some network issues), create database connections, modify shares at the file leve, run perfomance monitoring, run powershell scripts. With all that, I'm not worried about the ability to install out of store apps being figured out.

And my main problem with Apple isn't so much forcing you to install apps from the store, it's the legit apps they squelch or delay from being published.

Ok cool, thanks for the info.

[DaddyTorgo]

If I could play full-featured FM13 on a surface I might legitimately use it to replace my laptop...

edit: quick google and I guess it will actually run on a Surface Pro. People have done it, or have done it on similar hardware and are going to do it on a Pro shortly...

FML

[jeff061]

Well, Pro is a full blown Windows Laptop. So performance aside, it will run anything a Windows 8 desktop does.

Just costs a lot more and there are a good amount of alternatives as well that may or may not be better for you.

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by jeff061

When she bought my tablet she talked to the MS sales reps, they said they had sold very few. I'm expecting a blip at best against both Android and Apple.

That is because it was from the MS Stores or online from MS only...they will catch traction this year as they roll it out to the box stores.

[jeff061]

I believe they are in it for the long haul, so I don't expect the shitty sales numbers from 2012 to kill it.

I just hope they don't do to Win 8 what they did to Win 7 mobile. Can't imagine they will.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I just hope they don't do to Win 8 what they did to Win 7 mobile. Can't imagine they will.

I'll probably have one soon. I gave Android a try, but I'm not all that lit up about it. Before I get sucked into iOS, I want to give the Win8 mobile stuff and see how it goes. My biggest fear, though, is that my Dell Axim v5 got obsoleted simply because Microsoft stopped allowing synchs from that version of WinCE when they released Vista, and Microsoft will do something similar here.

Microsoft could have owned the mobile space a decade ago, but they let it slip away.

[Scoobz0202]

This is... weird

Microsoft's 64GB Surface Pro will only have 23GB usable storage | The Verge

Microsoft's Surface Pro tablet, due on February 9th, will have a smaller amount of storage space than expected. A company spokesperson has confirmed to The Verge that the 64GB edition of Surface Pro will have 23GB of free storage out of the box. The 128GB model will have 83GB of free storage. It appears that the Windows 8 install, built-in apps, and a recovery partition will make up the 41GB total on the base Surface Pro model.

Microsoft says users will be able to free up additional storage space by "creating a backup bootable USB and deleting the recovery partition," but out of the box they'll be left with as little as 36 percent of the advertised storage available. The storage situation is similar to Microsoft's Surface RT tablet. The Windows RT operating system, that powers Surface RT, accounts for half of the 32GB disk space on the entry model. Microsoft's Surface Pro supports USB 3.0 hard drives and microSDXC cards, meaning there are ways to extend the storage.

Emphasis mine

[Marc Vaughan]

Basically part of Microsofts master plan to ensure that no one understands or adopts the surface which is an impressive piece of technology crippled by its myriad of confusing configurations and awful promotion ...

I mean ffs if you've a 64Gb model then give the user 64Gb of storage space thats what they expect, otherwise call it a 40Gb model surely?

[dawgfan]

It's facepalm-ingly stupid the way that Microsoft has executed on this - the not providing the actual amount of storage as promoted, over-pricing them, doing a poor job getting them into big-box retailers.

I'm losing confidence every day that Microsoft is going to be able to sustain their current dominance - at this rate, they'll be lucky to reinvent themselves as well as IBM did when Microsoft toppled them.

[stevew]

That's embarrassing how little storage that they put in the device. Would seem like they could have put an extra 32 gig memory chip in the thing as the profit margin on it is likely to be high(they make roughly 50% profit on a 32 gig surface).

I'm guessing it will be pretty much DOA.

[Jughead Spock]

Why is the space such a big deal? NO system, laptop or tablet, comes with the entire space available. And even on a bare drive, the actual formatted capacity doesn't measure up to the marketing number.

I do agree that MS has handled some stuff (ok, a lot) wrong, but geez. This is a non-issue.

What'll really kill it is the 11" Yoga with full Windows 8 in June...

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Jughead Spock

Why is the space such a big deal? NO system, laptop or tablet, comes with the entire space available. And even on a bare drive, the actual formatted capacity doesn't measure up to the marketing number.

I do agree that MS has handled some stuff (ok, a lot) wrong, but geez. This is a non-issue.

What'll really kill it is the 11" Yoga with full Windows 8 in June...

I think it's a big deal because of the sheer magnitude of pre-used space. If I buy a 64GB iPad I wouldn't be shocked if you told me that iOS took up 4-6GB of space. But when you start telling me that the OS is taking up 50+%? That's pretty crazy. And I'm an MS fan (own a WP7, heavily considering a Surface RT).

[Jughead Spock]

That, I agree with. It's awkward for MS to put ultrabook specs in a tablet, and space is probably the first issue. They're in a bit of a no-win though; if they started the Pros with 128Gb HDs, probably jack the price up another $100-200 and people are already unhappy about the pricing.

I can't believe 50% margin on these... I'm thinking more like a loss leader, like when the XBox & 360 both came out. Crack the market, get 'em hooked on the infrastructure, get paid from subscriptions.

[Jughead Spock]

dola... I stand corrected, reports are that they are making 50% on Surface RTs, so probably still 30ish percent on pros. Definitely (another) mistake by MS.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Jughead Spock

dola... I stand corrected, reports are that they are making 50% on Surface RTs, so probably still 30ish percent on pros. Definitely (another) mistake by MS.

Yeah this I just don't get - they're coming into this market as a massive underdog, as such you'd have expected them to be ramming in full-speed as a loss leader to gain market share and receive revenue through:

* Cheaper components/production costs as sales rise.
* Revenue through application sales on the device store

Personally I don't 'get' where Microsoft are headed these days - nor do I think Microsoft ...

[jeff061]

50% doesn't include R&D and marketing. I hate those tear down pricing estimates.

[jeff061]

Hell an electronically delivered $60 game is 100% margin right?

[stevew]

Originally Posted by jeff061

50% doesn't include R&D and marketing. I hate those tear down pricing estimates.

I sure hope they didn't spend much developing one of the worst marketing campaigns ever.

[Jughead Spock]

Originally Posted by jeff061

50% doesn't include R&D and marketing. I hate those tear down pricing estimates.

Yes, but it can still be viewed as high relative to the market.



For someone trying to crack into an almost iron-clad market, not a good idea.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Yeah this I just don't get - they're coming into this market as a massive underdog, as such you'd have expected them to be ramming in full-speed as a loss leader to gain market share and receive revenue through:

* Cheaper components/production costs as sales rise.
* Revenue through application sales on the device store

Personally I don't 'get' where Microsoft are headed these days - nor do I think Microsoft ...

This. 1,000 times this.

[Fidatelo]

They can't go lower because their OEM's will abandon them.

[jeff061]

Anyways, I still think the Surface RT is a fantastic product, hands down better than both iPad and Android(app availability aside, yes I know that's a deal breaker to some).

However I used to think people comparing the RT to a laptop rather than an iPad were idiots. But I've just seen too much confusion around that, from technically inclined people straight to the technically illiterate, clearly MS dropped the ball educating the public on what exactly the RT is.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

They can't go lower because their OEM's will abandon them.

If I'm MS, I call that bluff. You want to leave us for Google? Fine. We'll make our own hardware. That's where things are headed anyway IMO...

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Basically part of Microsofts master plan to ensure that no one understands or adopts the surface which is an impressive piece of technology crippled by its myriad of confusing configurations and awful promotion ...

I mean ffs if you've a 64Gb model then give the user 64Gb of storage space thats what they expect, otherwise call it a 40Gb model surely?

It would actually be the 23GB model according to that story.

Sent from my 28GB (out of 32) iPad.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

If I'm MS, I call that bluff. You want to leave us for Google? Fine. We'll make our own hardware. That's where things are headed anyway IMO...

That may be true, but I don't think MS is in a position to scale up to the necessary levels any time soon. It doesn't take much for someone like Samsung to just slap a different OS on their hardware; it takes herculean efforts to build up an entire manufacturing and supply business on the global scale MS would need to retain any semblance of market share. I suspect they would take a massive hit for at least a year or two while they tried to get up to speed.

That said, as someone who is *this* close to buying an RT, any kind of discount would be a welcome push towards the product. In my opinion they could generate a ton of sales if they just included the touch cover at the price of the base unit.

[Arles]

Here's CNET's take on the surface Pro:

Microsoft Surface with Windows 8 Pro Review - Watch CNET's Video Review

[Mike Lowe]

I think I'm taking the plunge on the 64 GB. Aside from work etc., this may be my OOTP playing machine.

I'm thinking 64 is fine since I have my music etc Clouded.

I do use Adobe Creative Suite...hmmm is 64 going to crush me?

Quick help! Haha at Best Buy now.

[stevew]

There's no way I would go with 64 when 128 is only $100 more, especially if this is basically going to be your default laptop.

[Desnudo]

I have a 128gb Mac book and ran out of space after 9 mths. So yeah, definitely get as much space as possible.

[Arles]

Yeah, given the fractional cost to double your memory, I can't see a reason to buy the 64.

[stevew]

So the Pro should be on display at BB now? I guess what I want is a RT price/spec'd machine that runs full windows 8. I wish this was possible from Microsoft. I'd probably prefer that to an iPad cause I could use the office I've paid for and play ootp on it.

[Mike Lowe]

Yes Pro Windows 8 is what I got from Best Buy.

Also, the $100 I saved getting the 64, I can use that if I want to get me an additional 100 GB for two years on Skydrive, however right now I'm good using the free 7 GB on Skydive and the free 5 GB on Google Drive.

The idea for me is shifting away from hard drive dependency, which eventually will include software too.

Hard drive sizes seem to be on a bell curve pattern--it was an easy decision to go with 64.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by stevew

So the Pro should be on display at BB now? I guess what I want is a RT price/spec'd machine that runs full windows 8. I wish this was possible from Microsoft. I'd probably prefer that to an iPad cause I could use the office I've paid for and play ootp on it.

I think the only thing holding me back from an RT right now is my concern that this is where the market will be by this time next year. The current Intel Atom chips that some of the OEM's are using for Windows 8 pro tablets are very underwhelming, but I wouldn't be shocked if a Surface based on some newer Intel low-power architecture gets announced some time in the next 6-10 months. And then I worry that I'd feel kind of burnt with an RT, even though realistically I think it would be fine for my needs.

I wish I could see into the future

[Dutch]

I am STRONGLY leaning towards the Surface Pro as my next Laptop/Tablet.

[Passacaglia]

So I'm thinking of getting a tablet -- got an ipad for my brithday and was told that it could be any tablet or laptop. From the little bit of research I've done, it seems like:

Surface Pro -- if I want to play Civ/FM/FOF on it, but it costs more. Does anyone know how these run on it?
Ipad -- if I want more apps
Google Nexus -- if I want to use the same apps that are already on my android phone.

Is that pretty much the gist?

[Mike Lowe]

Surface Pro has Windows 8 and will run all of those programs fine. I'd install Civ via Steam to save on HD space.

Everyone here will tell you to get the 128, but honestly between Google Drive and Skydrive, I have plenty of space even with Adobe CS6 and Office 2013 installed (and OOTP).

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by Mike Lowe

Everyone here will tell you to get the 128, but honestly between Google Drive and Skydrive, I have plenty of space even with Adobe CS6 and Office 2013 installed (and OOTP).

As long as you are ok with always needing an internet connection to access those cloud offerings.


Out of those 3, only the Surface Pro is a laptop replacement(unless you are only doing web and light email). But you need to pay a premium for that functionality.

[Jughead Spock]

Originally Posted by Mike Lowe

Surface Pro has Windows 8 and will run all of those programs fine. I'd install Civ via Steam to save on HD space.

Everyone here will tell you to get the 128, but honestly between Google Drive and Skydrive, I have plenty of space even with Adobe CS6 and Office 2013 installed (and OOTP).

?? how would installing it from Steam save on HD? Save your games to the cloud, yes, but still is going to take ~6Gb. Civ will run on it, but the dedicated video will probably make you have to knock it down a few notches on the graphics. Not a bad compromise.

I still do hope the Surface gets some traction, despite MS' best efforts to screw it up.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by jeff061

As long as you are ok with always needing an internet connection to access those cloud offerings.


Out of those 3, only the Surface Pro is a laptop replacement(unless you are only doing web and light email). But you need to pay a premium for that functionality.

This may be a stupid question, but what exactly do you mean by 'laptop replacement'?

[jeff061]

Something that you don't need to buy in addition to a laptop. Requirements for that definition vary person to person. If I had a Pro, I don't need a laptop. If I have an iPad or Android variant, I still would.

Really though, the pro doesn't replace a laptop, it is a laptop. Just a slightly different form factor.

[BigPapi]

Originally Posted by Mike Lowe

Surface Pro has Windows 8 and will run all of those programs fine. I'd install Civ via Steam to save on HD space.

Everyone here will tell you to get the 128, but honestly between Google Drive and Skydrive, I have plenty of space even with Adobe CS6 and Office 2013 installed (and OOTP).

Wow....Good luck running an OOTP career with 20-30 gb of HD space. Have you ever taken a look at the footprint of an OOTP career file 10-15 years in?....I suppose you could turn all that stuff off, but then- it's really not the same game anymore.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

So I'm thinking of getting a tablet -- got an ipad for my brithday and was told that it could be any tablet or laptop. From the little bit of research I've done, it seems like:

Surface Pro -- if I want to play Civ/FM/FOF on it, but it costs more. Does anyone know how these run on it?
Ipad -- if I want more apps
Google Nexus -- if I want to use the same apps that are already on my android phone.

Is that pretty much the gist?

Something else you may want to think about is staying in the same apps ecosystem. So if you already have an android device, buying a nexus would allow you more seamlessly switch between devices and what you've bought. Fr example, starting a show on your phone then switching to your tablet. Or buying a show on your phone and streaming to your tv.

Also a little easier to sync cloud storage, although google drive has a web app that means you can use it on any device.

One thing that's really nice about the ipad is the ability to AirPrint from the tablet as well as stream whatever you are viewing on the tablet to your tv if you are willing to buy the Apple TV as well.

I think the surface pro is a laptop with a removable keyboard and has a different set of use cases. So if you wanted laptop power and windows with a different design, that would be the way to go.

[stevew]

Looked at a surface in person today. Really slick design. The upgraded keyboard looks so wprth it. I don't think I can go 1120 for a pro though. Seems way too much. They had a Samsung atom tablet, going to look into it. Reviews seem mixed.

[bigdawg2003]

Played around with a Surface Pro while in Vegas and was very impressed, but not sure what I need it for. May still ask for one for birthday or Christmas.

[jeff061]

I tend to agree at some point in the not too distance future the Pro will have the same form factor as the RT with similar battery life. I'll be more interested then.

[Jughead Spock]

Echoing the previous few posts here; just got my hands on one yesterday and it is a really compelling piece of hardware. I wouldn't feel bad about committing to one if I was in the market.

[stevew]

Admittedly I've been fucked by HP laptops before, but I went ahead and ordered the Envy x2 windows hybrid tablet and will post after I snag it. The memory is expandable from 64gb via a microSD card. With tax and whatnot it ended up being 563 bucks. I was just going to buy an IPad mini, but I figure this will do many of the same things and will(probably painfully) play FOF and/or OOTP. It has a 21 day return policy if it runs like trash, I can't imagine you can play things like Civ on it though.

http://slickdeals.net/f/5873716-HP-E...-Coupon?page=2

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Something else you may want to think about is staying in the same apps ecosystem. So if you already have an android device, buying a nexus would allow you more seamlessly switch between devices and what you've bought. Fr example, starting a show on your phone then switching to your tablet. Or buying a show on your phone and streaming to your tv.

Also a little easier to sync cloud storage, although google drive has a web app that means you can use it on any device.

One thing that's really nice about the ipad is the ability to AirPrint from the tablet as well as stream whatever you are viewing on the tablet to your tv if you are willing to buy the Apple TV as well.

I think the surface pro is a laptop with a removable keyboard and has a different set of use cases. So if you wanted laptop power and windows with a different design, that would be the way to go.

That's what I was getting at in my post -- comparing the sameness of having a matching set, vs. having one of each, so if an app is in just one, I can do it.