Cops Kill Mentally Challenged Teen Using "Non-Lethal" Force

[RainMaker]

You guys have low expectations for your police forces. Whatever happened to "city's finest". Couple of cops who can't physically handle a kid that size should be laughed out of the police force.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Like I said, if a kid that small is posing a risk to your safety in a phsyical alteration, it's time to hang up the badge and sell homes or something. You aren't cut out for the job.

There is no height requirement to kill someone. It's not an amusement park ride

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You guys have low expectations for your police forces. Whatever happened to "city's finest". Couple of cops who can't physically handle a kid that size should be laughed out of the police force.

I'm sure that sometime soon, you'll bitch on here about officers who "handled" a criminal in a physical manner.

Here, you're arguing (I guess), that the officers should have physically subdued him. Which is far riskier than tasing, for everyone's safety, including that of the suspect.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You guys have low expectations for your police forces. Whatever happened to "city's finest". Couple of cops who can't physically handle a kid that size should be laughed out of the police force.

And a taser carries less risk of injury to anyone than physically subduing.

And even more importantly as far as I'm concerned, carries less risk of injury to the officers than physically subduing a suspect.

[RainMaker]

It's fine guys. We just have different expectations for what we want out of our police officers. Not a big deal.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's fine guys. We just have different expectations for what we want out of our police officers. Not a big deal.

It sounds like your expectation is that officers physically brutalize a disabled kid, perhaps just to prove that they're "fit for the job?"

While else would you PREFER them to go that route (continued physical assault) with an out of control suspect?

[chadritt]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's fine guys. We just have different expectations for what we want out of our police officers. Not a big deal.

in all seriousness....what should they have done? if not taser him than what? they cant assault him, they cant let him keep attacking them, what should they have done to stop him without risking a lawsuit?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

It sounds like your expectation is that officers physically brutalize a disabled kid, perhaps just to prove that they're "fit for the job?"

While else would you PREFER them to go that route (continued physical assault) with an out of control suspect?

I don't think you need to brutalize someone that size to subdue them and handcuff them.

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by Lathum

This statement is beyond mind numbing.

Your saying the police officers should put themselves at risk over the criminal who fled from a traffic stop and is resisting arrest?

It isn't that cut and dry. But should they potentially risk their lives to protect the life, or at least not endanger the life, of a kid running away from a non felony incident? Yes.

They are there to protect and serve others before there own safety whenever possible, even the people we might hold below the police officers. (Which I do Jon, I have complete respect for officers and the job they do. I have a high respect for police offers largely because they protect and serve EVERYONE, not just "non perps" as you would seemingly suggest.)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by chadritt

in all seriousness....what should they have done? if not taser him than what? they cant assault him, they cant let him keep attacking them, what should they have done to stop him without risking a lawsuit?

Let's be honest: there are elements in our society who simply want them to let him escape & do as he damned well pleases. We'd hear the same protests from the same malcontents around Detroit, and many of the same ones we've seen here in this thread even if the kid had been carrying a SuperSoaker filled with anthrax & had a record 8 miles long.

Everything else is just bluster to cover that basic truth and anybody paying attention at all has figured that out already.

[molson]

Originally Posted by chadritt

in all seriousness....what should they have done? if not taser him than what? they cant assault him, they cant let him keep attacking them, what should they have done to stop him without risking a lawsuit?

I think people have the assumption that police, 100% of the time, have the ability to quickly and safely arrest anyone who resists them, without risk to either party. And that whenever reality isn't that clean, then the officers must have did something wrong. When you have that assumption, it's easier to see how people get worked up when criminals get a roughed up (or become one of the tragic few that die as the result of tasing).

Obviously, it's possible for police to go to far. But the end result is only one piece of evidence, and it's a not a very convincing one. An officer can go way over the line, and a criminal is OK and we never hear about it. Or an officer can do the best he can, and what he's trained to do to try do arrest a resisting suspect, and the suspect can end up dead anyway.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

I have complete respect for officers and the job they do.

And I'm saying your words here in this thread have proven beyond any shadow of doubt whatsoever that you don't.

You can protest that until hell freezes over but your own words condemn you.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Let's be honest: there are elements in our society who simply want them to let him escape & do as he damned well pleases.

And the reverse is true as well.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Noop

And the reverse is true as well.

That he wanted to escape & do as he damned well pleases to certain elements of society?

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by chadritt

in all seriousness....what should they have done? if not taser him than what? they cant assault him, they cant let him keep attacking them, what should they have done to stop him without risking a lawsuit?

Wrestle him and subdue him, with a greater risk of bodily injury to the suspect but a lesser risk of death. Just my opinion on it anyway.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Noop

And the reverse is true as well.

There's people that don't want him to escape? I think that's safe to say.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by chadritt

in all seriousness....what should they have done? if not taser him than what? they cant assault him, they cant let him keep attacking them, what should they have done to stop him without risking a lawsuit?

I'm fine with the taser there. As I stated earlier, I don't have a problem with it being used. I was just questioning the physical prowess of multiple cops who are unable to subdue a kid that size.

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And I'm saying your words here in this thread have proven beyond any shadow of doubt whatsoever that you don't.

You can protest that until hell freezes over but your own words condemn you.

And yet in a year or two I will more than likely be a protection ranger/officer in the NPS. (if all goes as planned.) I guess I will just have to hate myself then.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

Wrestle him and subdue him, with a greater risk of bodily injury to the suspect but a lesser risk of death. Just my opinion on it anyway.

That's a fair argument I think, and different police forces definitely have different degrees of reliance on the taser. Some don't use it at all, or only in extreme situations.

But it really ends up being a no-win situation for them.

I think that the high profile nature of the taser deaths inflates their dangerousness in the public eye. I would rather cops use them then getting in scuffles.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

That he wanted to escape & do as he damned well pleases to certain elements of society?

Nope. There are some people no matter the evidence refuse to acknowledge that the police are capable of doing pretty shitty things to people.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'm fine with the taser there. As I stated earlier, I don't have a problem with it being used. I was just questioning the physical prowess of multiple cops who are unable to subdue a kid that size.

Then why are you questioning still?!?

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Noop

Nope. There are some people no matter the evidence refuse to acknowledge that the police are capable of doing pretty shitty things to people.

Uh...

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

And yet in a year or two I will more than likely be a protection ranger/officer in the NPS. (if all goes as planned.) I guess I will just have to hate myself then.

I don't think you'll hate yourself, but you might question your line of thinking in this thread

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Then why are you questioning still?!?

I'm not nor have I ever questioned the tasering. Just the physical prowess of these officers. Time to bulk up the entry requirements in Detroit.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'm not nor have I ever questioned the tasering. Just the physical prowess of these officers. Time to bulk up the entry requirements in Detroit.

Do you seriously believe that they COULDN'T take this kid physically if they wanted to?

They chose to use the taser.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

And yet in a year or two I will more than likely be a protection ranger/officer in the NPS. (if all goes as planned.) I guess I will just have to hate myself then.

Honestly, we'd all be better served if you chose another line of work. Taxpayers have no need to pay for unnecessary funerals for sworn personnel who lack the common sense or good judgment to do the job properly, which you've clearly shown in this thread. You'd represent nothing so much as an unnecessary risk to both yourself and anyone you'd be sworn to protect.

[Danny]

Regarding the arguments of what a 5'2, 120 pound kid could do, if the kid is freaked out and wild, a whole lot actually. I've worked with some pretty severely autistic kids who would flip out (biting, scratching, hitting, flailing their bodies to make it difficult to restrain, etc...) and needed to be restrained. While I had less leeway than the cops at to what is appropriate to have them stop without potentially injuring them, this is not as easy as it would seem. And I am 6'3, 245 and pretty damn strong.

If the kid really was going crazy, the cops probably did have to use something, either force which would potentially injure him and get them fired or the tazer.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'm not nor have I ever questioned the tasering. Just the physical prowess of these officers. Time to bulk up the entry requirements in Detroit.

The physical prowess of the officers is irrelevant

[Danny]

Originally Posted by molson

Do you seriously believe that they COULDN'T take this kid physically if they wanted to?

They chose to use the taser.

This is the point here, cops can't just do whatever they want physically to make sure someone is restrained, they will lose their job. As in my example, I am sure I could take a 70-80 pound autistic kid, but it's about restraining someone in a way that is appropriate to your job and its guidelines. And like I said, while I am sure my guidelines are more strict than the police officers, they still are there.

[Danny]

From the reports it appears all this kid is classified is as learning disabled. Generally if a child is autistic, developmentally delayed or some others, they will specifically be classified as that. It would be nice if the story did actual reporting, but since they didn't specifically say, it's quite possible this kid simply had a reading disability or something along those lines.

Still, it is really unfortunate that he died from the tazer.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Do you seriously believe that they COULDN'T take this kid physically if they wanted to?

They chose to use the taser.

I don't know, the police commissioner felt that the officers were in physical danger.

Like I said, I'm fine with the taser. Ultimately they have to do what they felt was right for the situation. The kid shouldn't have ran and the whole thing is a tragedy that has no one at fault (shit sometimes happens). Personally I would prefer officers who don't need the taser to restrain a kid that size. Not saying the use is wrong, just kind of embarassing and pathetic.

[Travis]

For those arguing that the cops should have physically subdued the kid, have you ever really tried to do that to somebody who is resisting? I'm a big guy and have various martial training (all at relatively speaking superficial levels, I'm certainly not a black belt or anything of that nature, but I enjoy the techniques/strategy of it), and if I were in the cops shoes, I wouldn't want to risk a physical confrontation unless absolutely necessary. I've been through a resistance scenario twice (where I used to work, one was a big dude who was shoplifting, the second was an ex-army guy hopped up on dope who was chasing his wife and kid while they tried to hide in our store).

First issue: hidden weapon. Be it a guy, knife, blade or keys, if the person is not cooperating and especially if they are fighting back, size doesn't matter if you introduce elements like these. Obviously varied degree's of danger depending on what they have, but the key here is you can't tell for sure what's on their person unless they're running around naked of have been searched well.

Second: How good of a fighter that small guy may be, or can he land a lucky shot? One lucky kick to the knee and you're done for a year+. That's just one example, but somebody thrashing about could do a lot of damage from face to feet with a headbutt, finger to the eye, knee to the groin, kick to the knee, etc, etc. Never mind if the guy has actual training of some sort and knows some close quarters combat. Any officer hurt in this fashion is one less cop to put on the streets until they're healthy again.

Third (and probably the most important): Acceptable risk? In this instance the kid very sadly, died due to the taser. Now I'd hope the mortality rate in a physical apprehension would be loser than that of being tasered, but it's not going to be 0%. For those asking for the physical take down, what happens if the officer(s) take him down, but there's a stumble, trip, slip, etc that results in a neck being broken and the person dying? There is a mortality risk in this situation no matter how it's resolved once there is resistance.

It's sad, it's tragic, and no, I don't believe that offiers are saints who always do their jobs in the proper fashion, but I do believe that while their jobs call for them to protect and serve the public, one of their main responsibilities should be to do so in a manner that is safest for them as possible.

Yes there will be tragic accidents especially when there is mental illness playing a role or other influences (wrong meds, no meds, etc, etc), but to call these guys to task because you're assuming they couldn't just waltz in and subue a smaller person with ease, well, it's a lot easier to make that call from the sideline.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Danny

From the reports it appears all this kid is classified is as learning disabled. Generally if a child is autistic, developmentally delayed or some others, they will specifically be classified as that. It would be nice if the story did actual reporting, but since they didn't specifically say, it's quite possible this kid simply had a reading disability or something along those lines.

Still, it is really unfortunate that he died from the tazer.

There are other articles out there that said he was 16 but with the intellect of a 10 or 11 year old. Not sure what that's called.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't know, the police commissioner felt that the officers were in physical danger.

Like I said, I'm fine with the taser. Ultimately they have to do what they felt was right for the situation. The kid shouldn't have ran and the whole thing is a tragedy that has no one at fault (shit sometimes happens). Personally I would prefer officers who don't need the taser to restrain a kid that size. Not saying the use is wrong, just kind of embarassing and pathetic.

We don't know of anything about the kid and the situation.. As far as we know, the kid could have been in a corner where the officers couldnt fit into without exposing themselves and their physical advantage was useless. Kid could have been on a ledge where the officers couldn't get to. Throwing chunks of concrete et al.

Physical danger doesn't mean the kid was going to kick their ass in hand to hand combat

[JonInMiddleGA]

And lost amidst the hubub about so-called taser deaths were the preliminary findings last June by the Department of Justice which revealed no conclusive medical evidence that Tasers cause injury or death, despite many publicized cases of people dying after being hit by stun guns.

Other findings contained in the interim report, which was released last June, include:

"Law enforcement need not refrain from deploying CEDs provided the devices are used in accordance with accepted national guidelines;"

"The potential for moderate or severe injury related to CED exposure is low;"

"There is currently no medical evidence that CEDs pose a significant risk for
induced cardiac dysrhythmia when deployed reasonably;"

"Excited delirium that requires subdual carries with it a high risk of death,
regardless of the method of subdual;"
(note: "excited delirium", in my best layman's understanding, is basically when the influence of one or more stimulating chemicals leads to an overdose of adrenalin that stops the heart)

"Current human research suggests that the use of CED is not a life-threatening stressor in cases of excited delirium beyond the generalized stress of the underlying condition or appropriate subdual;"

"The decision to use a CED or another force option is best left to the tactical judgment of trained law enforcement at the scene."

But hey, a handful of malcontents probably knows better than the DOJ, medical research, and the police. We should just turn over all decision making to them.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

We don't know of anything about the kid. As far as we know, the kid could have been in a corner where the officers couldnt fit into without exposing themselves and their physical advantage was useless. Kid could have been on a ledge where the officers couldn't get to. Throwing chunks of concrete.

Physical danger doesn't mean the kid was going to kick their ass in hand to hand combat

The articles stated that he ran down the stairs and tried to assault an officer.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There are other articles out there that said he was 16 but with the intellect of a 10 or 11 year old. Not sure what that's called.

That's unclear reporting. If he is cognitively on the level with a 10 or 11 year old, he would be developmentally delayed (PC term for mentally retarded). If he was at the reading or some other academic level of a 10 or 11 year old, that could be a specific learning disability that causes low academic performance.

Intellect could be defined multiple ways

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The articles stated that he ran down the stairs and tried to assault an officer.

Certainly that wasn't a danger to the officers. But it doesnt state that they already had their taser pulled when he was running straight at them?

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

I don't think you'll hate yourself, but you might question your line of thinking in this thread

Everyone has their own ideas, my idea of protect and serve isn't different from my family friend who was a long time protection ranger and who is helping me get into the NPS. (I've been trying to get into the park service for a couple of years, not that I don't have a good resume or extensive relevant education, just hard to get in these days without a military background.)

Protection isn't even what I want to do permanently, I want to be an interpretation ranger (give tours, man help desks, set up education programs, ect) it is just easier to get in via protection, and I do have enough respect for that line of work that I am willing to give up a few years towards it. (And more if it becomes necessary or I chose to stay in protection.)

[Danny]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't know, the police commissioner felt that the officers were in physical danger.

Like I said, I'm fine with the taser. Ultimately they have to do what they felt was right for the situation. The kid shouldn't have ran and the whole thing is a tragedy that has no one at fault (shit sometimes happens). Personally I would prefer officers who don't need the taser to restrain a kid that size. Not saying the use is wrong, just kind of embarassing and pathetic.

It's about training too. If the officers are trained and taught that using the tazer is appropriate in that situation, that is what they will do. In general, this seems like a situation in which their training would dictate using a tazer.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Personally I would prefer officers who don't need the taser to restrain a kid that size. Not saying the use is wrong, just kind of embarassing and pathetic.

Did you know that some departments have both tasers & pepper spray lower on their force chart than physical contact with a suspect? And that in some jurisdictions putting your hands on a suspect to subdue him is the last step before going to the baton and the firearm?

Given the consistent statements about the use of the taser being appropriate it seems reasonable to think that this department could be one of those, meaning it seems pretty hard to pin any sort of embarrassment on officers doing what they're trained to do.

[Noop]

This whole situation was tragic. A little less voltage in the taser gun might have made the difference. Tough situation I hope they find a way to correct it in the future. Also I don't think his mother should be suing the police...just my opinion.

[Maple Leafs]

The fact that we had an abortion thread today and yet the dozen or so dumbest posts of the day were in a different thread is a Mine That Bird level upset.

[JediKooter]

Nothing the Vulcan nerve pinch couldn't have solved.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Noop

This whole situation was tragic. A little less voltage in the taser gun might have made the difference. Tough situation I hope they find a way to correct it in the future. Also I don't think his mother should be suing the police...just my opinion.

I doibt voltage had anything to do with it.

Obviously I am not in the know but I would assume the kid had an undiagnosed heart condition and the electric shock triggered an arythimia.

[CU Tiger]

To subdue and cuff a suspect he has to be placed prone and then held down while his arms are forced behind him. The act of holding him down would be a knee or more body weight applied directly to the kids back, neck or head. At his size it is highly doubtful he could have supported that weight. the kid's size may have directly lead to the tasering.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Like I said, if a kid that small is posing a risk to your safety in a phsyical alteration, it's time to hang up the badge and sell homes or something. You aren't cut out for the job.

What if the kid is Bruce Lee or Royce Gracie?
I'm just saying we do not know how competent of a fighter the kid is and size is not that relevant in a street fight.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I doibt voltage had anything to do with it.

Obviously I am not in the know but I would assume the kid had an undiagnosed heart condition and the electric shock triggered an arythimia.

yeah there are multiple mention of lowering the voltage in this thread, but voltage does not kill amperage does...the average spark plug in a car has over 100,000 volts and anyone who has speent time under a hood has been hit by one at some point.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

The fact that we had an abortion thread today and yet the dozen or so dumbest posts of the day were in a different thread is a Mine That Bird level upset.

I love this (even if I'm in your dozen). Classic.

[RainMaker]

Pastors in Church parking lots are a huge problem in today's society.

Police Taser Pastor 'Helping' Driver in Traffic Stop - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Pastors in Church parking lots are a huge problem in today's society.

Police Taser Pastor 'Helping' Driver in Traffic Stop - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com

I usually argue a little the other way, but if this guy interfered and then pushed the officer, and then still refused to cooperate, he pretty much deserved what he got. I don't care if he was Moses, it still sounds like he's a publicity-seeking douchebag.