I Have Been Saved

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Why? It's all make-believe anyway, right? So, you infer you're going to a place that doesn't exist. What's the big deal?

Power.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I have trouble respecting a God who tries to gain followers through fear. I'd have an easier time with one who says "Come with me if you'd like to" than one who says "Come with me or else".

I'm just the opposite. I'd rather have a God who gains followers through terror and fear than peace and love; at least that's more believable.

What would be more realistic? A truly omnipotent being who needs followers to love him for some inexplicable reason or a truly omnipotent being who wants followers to fear him so he can rule over their lives?

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Power.

I'm sorry - you'll have to help me out on this one - not sure I get what you're driving at.

[JediKooter]

Ok, is there some sort of mandatory black out period or something when someone has just been saved?

I sure would like to see tarcone at least make a comment or two regarding some of the questions he was asked. Otherwise, now it's just starting seem like a drive by prothlesizing.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

I'm just the opposite. I'd rather have a God who gains followers through terror and fear than peace and love; at least that's more believable.

What would be more realistic? A truly omnipotent being who needs followers to love him for some inexplicable reason or a truly omnipotent being who wants followers to fear him so he can rule over their lives?

Old Testament fan?

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

I'm just the opposite. I'd rather have a God who gains followers through terror and fear than peace and love; at least that's more believable.

What would be more realistic? A truly omnipotent being who needs followers to love him for some inexplicable reason or a truly omnipotent being who wants followers to fear him so he can rule over their lives?

I'd like a God that hands out cash, but that's not the way it is.

You have to understand where I'm coming from - God is THE supreme being who created everything.

So, we're asking the Creator of all things to bend to what OUR perception of a worthy God is so that WE will believe in Him?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Thats not entirely a workable analogy though RM. Biology and Philoshophy have very little in common.

The Bible discusses a lot of Biology from the age of the Earth, to the Sun, to how long the planet took to be created.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I'd like a God that hands out cash, but that's not the way it is.

You have to understand where I'm coming from - God is THE supreme being who created everything.

So, we're asking the Creator of all things to bend to what OUR perception of a worthy God is so that WE will believe in Him?

Who created him?

[RainMaker]

The one thing I never understood about "being saved" was the idea that God cared. I mean he has this enormous Universe he created which we are hardly a speck of dust on. He spent billions of years just fucking around with sludge, then various life forms. Finally he creates apes for awhile, but got bored and decided that he would morph us into what we are today over the course of a few million years.

After all this, are we really to believe that he cares about the day to day happenings of individuals? Seems a tad narcissistic to believe that with all these things on his plate, he's concerned about whether you got laid or had a beer last night.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Who created him?

When did time begin? When will it end?

A lot of questions just don't make sense.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

So, we're asking the Creator of all things to bend to what OUR perception of a worthy God is so that WE will believe in Him?

Some would argue we already do that .

[boberot]

Originally Posted by KWhit

Well, the part that always gets my hackles up about conversations/threads like this are statements where people basically tell me I'm going to hell.



That kind of stuff makes my blood boil.

I don't think he meant to be provocative. I think, in balance, his post is about his life taking a profound turn for the better. It's a joyful post, not a wrathful or condemning post.

When he typed "I hope you guys find Jesus," in my mind it had about as much malice as somebody saying, "I hope you guys listen to the new Los Campesinos album. It's amazing."

I suppose you could focus in on that one point, but I don't think that's REALLY his point.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Some would argue we already do that .

/agreed

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

When did time begin? When will it end?

A lot of questions just don't make sense.

According to the Bible, 6000 years ago was when things began. For when it will end, there are a lot of different answers to that in the Bible. Guess you just have to pick whichever contradiction you think is best.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

When did time begin? When will it end?

A lot of questions just don't make sense.

That's because most of us see time as a linear progression of cause and effect. Actually time is more like a big ball. A big ball of timey-wimey wibbly-wobbly...stuff.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

When did time begin? When will it end?

A lot of questions just don't make sense.

Well, good thing we have had Einstein, Newton, Salk and a host of others that tried to answer those difficult questions.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Well, good thing we have had Einstein, Newton, Salk and a host of others that tried to answer those difficult questions.

Absolutely, and I think it would be cool if those questions are someday answered.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I'm sorry - you'll have to help me out on this one - not sure I get what you're driving at.

As you suggest, in the religious context, a non-Christian shouldn't care if a Christian tells him/her that they're going to hell, since according to that non-believer, hell shouldn't actually exist.

But, as mentioned in an earlier post, religion is also a manifestation of the worldly. In the case of the USA, Christianity is the dominant religion. Though the strict secular nature of the country's governance is generally accepted, the respect accorded to the secular state varies from region to region. There is a small but significant number of Christians who channel their beliefs/ideologies into political action in ways that seem threatening to the secular state. They have every right to be politically active, but that activity can be considered threatening by some secularists.

What Tarcone said was probably innocent, and I am glad that he's doing what he needs to do. But, in the context of the type of power-relations in some parts of the country where non-religious folks have traditionally and constantly had to accept what they have to accept from the majority (from the mundane "playing along to get along" situations like participating in grace before meals instead of raising a stink, to the more significant reintroduction of creationism of some form in science curricula to name a few examples), I also do understand why a non-believer can get upset at Tarcone's comments.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

As you suggest, in the religious context, a non-Christian shouldn't care if a Christian tells him/her that they're going to hell, since according to that non-believer, hell shouldn't actually exist.

But, as mentioned in an earlier post, religion is also a manifestation of the worldly. In the case of the USA, Christianity is the dominant religion. Though the strict secular nature of the country's governance is generally accepted, the respect accorded to the secular state varies from region to region. There is a small but significant number of Christians who channel their beliefs/ideologies into political action in ways that seem threatening to the secular state. They have every right to be politically active, but that activity can be considered threatening by some secularists.

What Tarcone said was probably innocent, and I am glad that he's doing what he needs to do. But, in the context of the type of power-relations in some parts of the country where non-religious folks have traditionally had to accept what they have to accept from the majority (creationism of some form in science curricula to name one example), I also do understand why a non-believer can get upset at Tarcone's comments.

I can understand this, though it's certainly a two-way street. As a Christian I certainly feel threatened by the secularists and their political activity (and, just like Christians, they have every right to this activity).

I've noticed that a lot of the barbs directed at me are science related, and I have no problem with that. I believe there are a lot of things we just don't understand at this time.

Regarding schools, I have no problem with them offering a curriculum based on science as we know it. It's our best guess - so be it.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I can understand this, though it's certainly a two-way street. As a Christian I certainly feel threatened by the secularists and their political activity (and, just like Christians, they have every right to this activity).

I've noticed that a lot of the barbs directed at me are science related, and I have no problem with that. I believe there are a lot of things we just don't understand at this time.

Regarding schools, I have no problem with them offering a curriculum based on science as we know it. It's our best guess - so be it.

I agree with you--everyone has the right to leverage their political power, exercise their free speech, etc. I just wanted to point out how they may be perceived by those on the other size (and as you mention perception is a two-way street).

[DrAFTjunkie]

Firstly, I'm a non-christian. I don't believe that Christ is my savior, and the bible is nothing more than fiction/propaganda, IMO. I lean toward scientific theory to make sense of most of life's questions.

There are a lot of things that can be explained by scientic theory. But there a lot of things that cannot. Tarcone is being thrashed relentlessly for his beliefs in christian theories, but the thrashers are acting just as preachy as he was. His "hell" comment is subjective and wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. Maybe he meant the hell that was his former life. He never said that we're all gonna burn. I've seen some of you folks trampling all over him and criticizing his new-found stength. It doesn't matter why, or how...the guy has turned his life around.

A lot of the scientific juggernauts have rather large holes in thier theories, as does the bible. Darwin's theories have been called into question lately, what with the weird bugs and their non Darwinistic form of evolution.

The truth is, that none of us will evr truely "know." We'll cling to beliefs and theories to try and make sense of it all, but "it all" is far too complex for our human minds to every fully comprehend. Cut the guy some slack and be happy that there's one less reprobate in the world. As I said, I don't think it matters why. He's changed and that's good.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

As you suggest, in the religious context, a non-Christian shouldn't care if a Christian tells him/her that they're going to hell, since according to that non-believer, hell shouldn't actually exist.

That is completely and uncategorically wrong. And insulting to boot.

When a christian tells someone that they are going to hell, what they are saying is this: "I am right, and you are wrong, and because of your shortcomings/ignorance you deserve to be punished for all of eternity."

It is a staggeringly opinionated, judgmental, and arrogant statement. To believe that their god - or Jesus - or whatever - is the only real god and all others are false, and whose followers will suffer? It is hypocrisy at its worst.

At the point tarcone said he wished everyone would believe exactly like him or suffer the alternative, he stopped being just happy for himself and instead judged all of us.

I'll stop here before I earn myself a vacation as well...

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The one thing I never understood about "being saved" was the idea that God cared.

Another way of asking that question might be: Why do believers care about converting non-believers?

Granted a lot would say to share the love and joy they have. But the psychological aspect also cannot be ignored. Getting people to share your belief in the unbelievable makes it less unbelievable.

What if I live the same lifestyle as tarcone except i do not believe, I do not act out of a fear or love of the eternal. Would that life lead be considered any less spiritual or worthy of rewards? What if religion was just a means for something bigger, and now we have other means to achieve the same thing, without so much damage? Shouldn't we let go of religions?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I can understand this, though it's certainly a two-way street. As a Christian I certainly feel threatened by the secularists and their political activity (and, just like Christians, they have every right to this activity).

I've noticed that a lot of the barbs directed at me are science related, and I have no problem with that. I believe there are a lot of things we just don't understand at this time.

Regarding schools, I have no problem with them offering a curriculum based on science as we know it. It's our best guess - so be it.

What is threatening to you from secularists? It seems that the secularists want everyone to just do what they want and Christians want to control what other can do.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

That is completely and uncategorically wrong. And insulting to boot.

Ha ha, it seems that an atheist just got insulted by another atheist (okay, I'm really an agnostic, leaning towards atheism).


I stand by my statement. If I don't believe in god, why should I care what Christians or anybody else says about god? But what does matter is how the dominant religion can impact my day to day life--sometimes it doesn't at all, sometimes it matters a great deal.

An additional edit to add: the differences in opinions we have probably stem from the differences between atheists and agnostics. I remember someone telling me some time ago that agnostics were the most arrogant of them all, since they are "too above it all to even bother defining their beliefs". I generally disagree with this, but I do understand the perception...

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

That is completely and uncategorically wrong. And insulting to boot.

When a christian tells someone that they are going to hell, what they are saying is this: "I am right, and you are wrong, and because of your shortcomings/ignorance you deserve to be punished for all of eternity."

It is a staggeringly opinionated, judgmental, and arrogant statement. To believe that their god - or Jesus - or whatever - is the only real god and all others are false, and whose followers will suffer? It is hypocrisy at its worst.

At the point tarcone said he wished everyone would believe exactly like him or suffer the alternative, he stopped being just happy for himself and instead judged all of us.

I'll stop here before I earn myself a vacation as well...

1. I never said that "because of your shortcomings or ignorance you deserve to be punished for all eternity." I'm just saying what the Bible says. The Bible says we all have shortcomings and the only way to get "right" with God is by faith in Jesus. Do I think you serve to be punished for all eternity? I can't make that judgment.

2. The height of arrogance: we all have our beliefs. To not believe is a belief as well.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

Another way of asking that question might be: Why do believers care about converting non-believers?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by lungs

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Yes - I get Christian bonus bucks if I sign-up 5 FOFC members! Who wants a membership form?!

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by lungs

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Pat Robertson is worth hundreds of millions. Lives on a mountain in a mansion with a private air strip. But he's really just in it for the salvation.

[bignej]

Originally Posted by DrAFTjunkie

A lot of the scientific juggernauts have rather large holes in thier theories, as does the bible. Darwin's theories have been called into question lately, what with the weird bugs and their non Darwinistic form of evolution.

I saw the article you are referring to with the helmet fly's or whatever. This doesn't actually contradict the theory of evolution as much as it helps validate another theory(cant remember the name).

I will also say that its not very fair to compare a scientific theory supported by evidence and tested to a book that is essentially a hole with very few real world references that make people think its a textbook. The bible is nothing but stories that give promises of rainbows, puppies and sunshine. All vague promises. This morning I saw a billboard that said, "He is the Answer". What the hell does that mean? Its like a damn horoscope.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Otherwise, now it's just starting seem like a drive by prothlesizing.

I'd laugh if in the end, we find out that Tarcone's post was just a troll attempt. Hey, watch what happens when I post that I've been saved.

If that happens, then Goat's comment will probably be shared by a few people.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

Another way of asking that question might be: Why do believers care about converting non-believers?

Granted a lot would say to share the love and joy they have. But the psychological aspect also cannot be ignored. Getting people to share your belief in the unbelievable makes it less unbelievable.

What if I live the same lifestyle as tarcone except i do not believe, I do not act out of a fear or love of the eternal. Would that life lead be considered any less spiritual or worthy of rewards? What if religion was just a means for something bigger, and now we have other means to achieve the same thing, without so much damage? Shouldn't we let go of religions?

I already addressed this earlier in the thread (I think, anyway). But, bear with me here - let's just say for a second that I'm right. So...in my heart I know the one way to get to heaven is to believe in Jesus Christ, and Christ himself states that he's the only way. So, I believe in a heaven and a hell - and I have friends and family that I love dearly...wouldn't it behoove me to tell them about God/Jesus?

While it's hard to believe for the non-believer (hey, there MUST be some ulterior motive - money! power!), sometimes it's as simple as that.

Mind you, this is all with the caveat I spoke of earlier (probably on page 1 or 2) about man and humanity. Once you add man to the equation, there is the potential for all kind of garbage to occur. However, the message behind it still remains.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by KWhit

No, what God is saying is, "Believe in this book, even though its contents go against nearly every widely regarded scientific fact known to man. If you don't believe it you will go to Hell."

To put a more human front on things ... most Christians believe in a loving 'fatherly' God and ascribe fatherlike characteristics to him with us as his children.

The idea is that he welcomes us with open arms back into the church family, however it appears there is a point at which our hearts harden to him and he accepts that we will never accept him, effectively turning our backs on us forever.

This is what many churches believe is 'Hell' - that is dying without knowing God and thus being condemned to never know him, its not a fire and brimstone place - more a self chosen prison without your heavenly father.

(personally I have a hard time ascribing fatherly aspects to an omnipotent diety who has regularly done such things as 'wipe out nearly all life on the planet in a flood' as part of his ocassional daily routine )

[bignej]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

1. I never said that "because of your shortcomings or ignorance you deserve to be punished for all eternity." I'm just saying what the Bible says. The Bible says we all have shortcomings and the only way to get "right" with God is by faith in Jesus. Do I think you serve to be punished for all eternity? I can't make that judgment.

2. The height of arrogance: we all have our beliefs. To not believe is a belief as well.

To not believe is to admit ignorance. Its not the same thing. Its not a belief. Religions use convenient answers. Why is the sky blue? God did it. Why did all those people die in the hurricane? God has a plan. Why can't I masturbate? Its selfish and sinful. Atheists and agnostics choose to just wait for the answers and realize that its OK to not know.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Pat Robertson is worth hundreds of millions. Lives on a mountain in a mansion with a private air strip. But he's really just in it for the salvation.

And your point is? We could also list CEOs from charities that siphon funds, or, heaven forbid, politicians that accept kickbacks. I already said that we're all human - we're all greedy, we're all selfish to a degree, we all have our faults. Pat Robertson's no better than me or you (and I'm sure a lot would say he's worse than us, but who are we to judge, right?).

[bignej]

I meant to add to that last post is basically there are 2 different kinds of people. Those that have have an answer and those that don't. Those that don't may or may not research them but they don't need some lame explanation to call it a day.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

2. The height of arrogance: we all have our beliefs. To not believe is a belief as well.

this is wrong.

To not believe is by definition, to question. it is not a belief in and of itself.

True and pure Atheism is indeed a belief, the belief that there is NO god or high power in the universe.

But simply not believing is ont a belief system, its a position floating amongst all the belief systems.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Yes - I get Christian bonus bucks if I sign-up 5 FOFC members! Who wants a membership form?!

Yeah, I was talking more about leadership of the church.

My dad's church meets in homes. While I'm not a member and think they have a few kooky things, I always respect that they don't baptize until adulthood and don't beg for money every turn.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I'd like a God that hands out cash, but that's not the way it is.

According to some late night cable TV I've seen while working there is one out there ..

Apparently he's the God of the bible but appears to be available only via. subscription and regular payments to specific ministries

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Mustang

I'd laugh if in the end, we find out that Tarcone's post was just a troll attempt. Hey, watch what happens when I post that I've been saved.

If that happens, then Goat's comment will probably be shared by a few people.

I'm begining to think that's what it is.

If so, then would Goat be unboxed????

[bignej]

Originally Posted by RendeR

True and pure Atheism is indeed a belief, the belief that there is NO god or high power in the universe.

Not true. Denying God exists based on observations isn't a belief. Atheism isn't a religion where people blindly accept no God exists. Just like Catholics and protestants are all Christians. Anyone who doesn't believe in a theistic God IS an atheist. The includes all you agnostics. Atheists is not a closed minded system. If God shows his face tomorrow I assure you I will no longer be an atheist.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

And your point is? We could also list CEOs from charities that siphon funds, or, heaven forbid, politicians that accept kickbacks. I already said that we're all human - we're all greedy, we're all selfish to a degree, we all have our faults. Pat Robertson's no better than me or you (and I'm sure a lot would say he's worse than us, but who are we to judge, right?).

That's not true. The average CEO for a non-profit makes $150k. They aren't living in huge mansions and flying private planes on to their property.

Robertson is a shitstain to the highest degree. Goes on TV begging people for cash to help the poor while he sits on a pile of dough. He pushes pseudo-science into the schools and discrimination in society.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That's not true. The average CEO for a non-profit makes $150k. They aren't living in huge mansions and flying private planes on to their property.

Robertson is a shitstain to the highest degree. Goes on TV begging people for cash to help the poor while he sits on a pile of dough. He pushes pseudo-science into the schools and discrimination in society.

I'd venture to say the average pastor doesn't make that much money either.

But really, I'm not defending him nor am I a fan of his.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

After all this, are we really to believe that he cares about the day to day happenings of individuals? Seems a tad narcissistic to believe that with all these things on his plate, he's concerned about whether you got laid or had a beer last night.

One reason I don't believe in a 'personal' God rather than one who made us, gave us freewill and let us get on with things is simply the following -

Two sports teams, both full of christians who prayed for victory before the match - why does one team win, the other lose (similarly I remember reading reports on the shock of English troops during World War One when they realised that the German soldiers weren't baby eating humans but were also Christians who believed that God was on their side).

Only one set of prayers can be answered obviously and expecting both to be answered just isn't practical/possible - yet we have sportsmen and women frequently thanking God for their achievements ... yes we get it God created us all, but its your dedication and perseverance which gave you victory - promote that.

It should be a victory for mankind and used to inspire others to also try hard at what they do imho rather than just offer prayers up to God and expect him to do the hard work ...

If people didn't truly fall for the pray and it'll all be ok, you wouldn't get half as many Cable Preachers asking people to send in their $14.99 for their latest instructions on salvation/finding success/spouse/whatever.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

1. I never said that "because of your shortcomings or ignorance you deserve to be punished for all eternity." I'm just saying what the Bible says. The Bible says we all have shortcomings and the only way to get "right" with God is by faith in Jesus. Do I think you serve to be punished for all eternity? I can't make that judgment.

Not to be pedantic but you already have made that judgement - you decided the bible is correct, therefore you've decided that everyone who doesn't believe in it is unsaved ...

(personally I have my own faith and really couldn't care less what anyone else believes will happen to me - each person will recieve their own judgement and I'm content in recieving what is mine and fully expect to have a few choice words with God once I get there ... not least that next time I want a d**n instruction manual rather than having to make things up as I go along )

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

One reason I don't believe in a 'personal' God rather than one who made us, gave us freewill and let us get on with things is simply the following -

Two sports teams, both full of christians who prayed for victory before the match - why does one team win, the other lose (similarly I remember reading reports on the shock of English troops during World War One when they realised that the German soldiers weren't baby eating humans but were also Christians who believed that God was on their side).

Only one set of prayers can be answered obviously and expecting both to be answered just isn't practical/possible - yet we have sportsmen and women frequently thanking God for their achievements ... yes we get it God created us all, but its your dedication and perseverance which gave you victory - promote that.

It should be a victory for mankind and used to inspire others to also try hard at what they do imho rather than just offer prayers up to God and expect him to do the hard work ...

If people didn't truly fall for the pray and it'll all be ok, you wouldn't get half as many Cable Preachers asking people to send in their $14.99 for their latest instructions on salvation/finding success/spouse/whatever.

Same can be said for a lot of events. Why does a sweet little girl get taken, molested, and buried alive in a sexual predators front yard? God can "save" people, but not her? Why don't we ever hear answers for this when it comes to God?

It's why I was pissed to hear all the "Miracle on the Hudson" talk last week. It wasn't a miracle, it was a kickass pilot. If he had crashed the plane, would God have been responsible? Or does he only get credit for the stuff that goes right?

None of it makes sense.

[Lathum]

Thats why God works in mysterious ways

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by bignej

Not true. Denying God exists based on observations isn't a belief. Atheism isn't a religion where people blindly accept no God exists. Just like Catholics and protestants are all Christians. Anyone who doesn't believe in a theistic God IS an atheist. The includes all you agnostics. Atheists is not a closed minded system. If God shows his face tomorrow I assure you I will no longer be an atheist.

We're not talking about what is a religion, we're talking about having a "belief" Atheism IS a belief system.

Atheism is not a religion, nor a dogma, but it IS a belief. Atheists choose to "believe" there is no theistic god.

You can't just total up religious followers on one side and everyone else on the other, thats not how it works.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by RendeR

this is wrong.

To not believe is by definition, to question. it is not a belief in and of itself.

True and pure Atheism is indeed a belief, the belief that there is NO god or high power in the universe.

But simply not believing is ont a belief system, its a position floating amongst all the belief systems.

well put, sir.

[Bad-example]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Thats why God works in mysterious ways