Reds Thread 2008

[JPhillips]

I'd give you a standing ovation if it meant I wouldn't have to see Patterson every day.

[Crapshoot]

Seriously, the Reds have a bunch of young talent, but Dusty terrifies me - I keep thinking Volquez or Cueto is going to have their arms fall off. IMO, this team is built for next year and beyond - Griffey ought to be cut bait on if they can, and Dunn isn't sticking around after the years of abuse from the idiots like Brenneman.

[rowech]

I've been watching Dusty carefully in how he's treating Volquez and Cueto because of how much badmouthing he took. So far, he's done a really good job in not overdoing anything either of them.

The more I watch Cueto pitch, the more I believe he's not ready to be a really good pitcher yet. He pitches afraid of guys that he just shouldn't be afraid of.

Griffey isn't going anywhere until he hits 600. Once he does, he'll be gone. I'm still not so sure the Reds aren't going to try and keep Dunn. I'd trade him, but I think they might try and keep him.

[Scoobz0202]

Yep.

Time to order my Jay Bruce jersey, I think.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Scoobz0202

Yep.

Time to order my Jay Bruce jersey, I think.

A word of caution from a Cubs fan. The sole jersey that I own for my favorite baseball team has the name "PRIOR" stiched across the back. About the only good thing it has done for me over the last 3 seasons is spawn a debate this season about what would be worse to wear to the ballpark - a Prior jersey or an Edmonds (Cubs) jersey?

[VPI97]

BRUUUUCE

[korme]

If I had a g/f it's pretty safe to say I'd let Jay Bruce have his way with her.

I looked at the “projections’ of Jay Bruce for the season on ESPN:
G AB R H 2b 3b hr rbi BB K SB AVG
110 330 220 330 110 0 0 220 220 0 110 1.000



lol awesome

And I wouldn't mind if we kept Dunn. As much shit as he gets year in and year out, he is still highly productive (except for being a defensive liability)

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

And I wouldn't mind if we kept Dunn. As much shit as he gets year in and year out, he is still highly productive (except for being a defensive liability)

I agree....with the caveat that we should deal him if someone (Yankess/Sox) comes calling and is willing to throw a bunch of young talent our way for him. Outside of that, I would hope we do whatever it takes to keep him in a Reds uniform.

[korme]

Tonight was such an enjoyable game, too, I hope this was the spark we needed!

[Butter]

Originally Posted by samifan24

Ok, you guys know I'm an Indians fan but I like to see the Reds do well and I think they have good fans. That said, they gave Jay Bruce a standing ovation before his first ML at-bat tonight. That's ridiculous.

You're right, they should have booed him.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by VPI97

I agree....with the caveat that we should deal him if someone (Yankess/Sox) comes calling and is willing to throw a bunch of young talent our way for him. Outside of that, I would hope we do whatever it takes to keep him in a Reds uniform.

Dunn has these unbelievable stretches where he will hit like 15 homers in 3 weeks. Then he'll have about a month and a half where he hits .160 with 3 K's a game. If he would even out, I think the perception of him would change a bit. The commentators last night were going on and on like Dunn has finally turned the corner... but he hasn't, really. He is just in a groove again, until 2 weeks from now, when he starts pulling off the ball again and bats like he's never taken to the plate before. He is hitting what should really be the prime of his career right now, so maybe at some point, the light will click on and he can become a more consistent 120+ RBI guy and a .280 hitter. But I'm not holding my breath.

[JPhillips]

Dunn is hitting a point where similar players have really declined. I like him and thinks he's terribly undervalued by most Reds fans, but I'd also like to trade him now instead of throwing a huge contract on him that plays out too much like the Griffey contract.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

You're right, they should have booed him.

The standing ovation was ridiculous. The guy has done nothing. He's a rookie. Give him a standing ovation when he reaches a career milestone or pitches an outstanding game, but before his first ML at-bat? The greatest players of this generation didn't get that, nor would they deserve it. The same goes for Jay Bruce. Like I said, I'm an Indians fan but I like to see the Reds do well and I think they have a good fanbase. But the act of giving a rookie a standing ovation before his first career at-bat was ridiculous.

[Scoobz0202]

It wasn't more for his accomplishments, but more of a, thank god they finally called your ass up, standing ovation.

[Crapshoot]

Yeah, I got what Scoobz and all are saying. I;m a Giants fan, went out to Tim Lincecum's first start, and we gave him a standing O. A great prospect is hope - and telling the kid "bravo" doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

[korme]

We clapped and stood because of what he could potentially mean to our franchise. He is the proverbial light at the end of this tunnel we have been in since oh about 1995.

[Bearcat729]

And now everyone in Lousiville can see Corey Patterson play

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/...=.jsp&c_id=cin

CINCINNATI -- Struggling center fielder Corey Patterson was optioned to Triple-A Louisville by the Reds on Wednesday.

The contract of infielder Andy Phillips was selected from Louisville to replace Patterson. To make room for Phillips on the 40-man roster, injured shortstop Alex Gonzalez was transferred to the 60-day disabled list.

Patterson, who was often Cincinnati's leadoff hitter, did not serve that role well this season. He was batting .200 with a .240 on-base percentage in 45 games, including 29 starts.

The rough start to the season, combined with top prospect Jay Bruce's promotion on Tuesday, diminished Patterson's role.

The Reds signed Patterson to a Minor League contract on March 3. When he made the club, a $3 million salary was guaranteed.

Phillips was batting .315 with five home runs and 22 RBIs in 40 games this season for Louisville. He can play first base, second base and third base.

Signed in the offseason to a Minor League deal, Phillips spent parts of the previous four seasons with the Yankees.

[rowech]

World's most expensive minor leaguer.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by rowech

I've been watching Dusty carefully in how he's treating Volquez and Cueto because of how much badmouthing he took. So far, he's done a really good job in not overdoing anything either of them.

The more I watch Cueto pitch, the more I believe he's not ready to be a really good pitcher yet. He pitches afraid of guys that he just shouldn't be afraid of.

Griffey isn't going anywhere until he hits 600. Once he does, he'll be gone. I'm still not so sure the Reds aren't going to try and keep Dunn. I'd trade him, but I think they might try and keep him.

Dusty's problems with handling pitchers mostly happen later in the season. Over the course of the season he'll lose faith in most of his bullpen and start relying on 2-3 guys and when they can't pitch he pushes his starters to their breaking point. If his team is anywhere close to playoff contention, it gets a whole lot worse.

[korme]

I have been out and about all day - that news about CP made my heart happy

And coming home to see us up 9-1 ain't shabby either - Bruce is 1/2 with 2 BB! He's mad.

[Scoobz0202]

Bruuuuuuuuccccceeeee

[rowech]

I said, right before he hit it, if he hits a walk-off, they'll rename the Ohio River after him.

[JPhillips]

I stole this from RedReporter:

Corey Patterson (May 1-29):
61AB 6R 11H 0HR 2RBI 0BB 10K 3SB 2CS .180/.180/.197

Jay Bruce (May 27-31):
19AB 8R 11H 1HR 4RBI 5BB 1K 2SB 0CS .579/.680/.895

If you project these 19 ABs out, it's clear that Bruce will be the greatest hitter in the history of baseball.

[damnMikeBrown]

I'm lovin this kid right now...and it has been a long while since I paid -any- attention to the Reds other than company outings to the park.

[korme]

Yea, he's getting casual baseball followers to watch the Reds, and to me, that is awesome... Amazing things.

[Crapshoot]

So Shorty (and other Reds fans), Bruce clearly needs a nickname. Bruce Almighty is nice, but a little cliche. "The Boss"?

[Scoobz0202]

On some forum I saw somebody post a picture of the movie The Matrix and called him "The One." I liked that...

[Scoobz0202]

Yep. It's official. I have a crush on Jay Bruce.

Crapshoot, people are actually calling Bruce The Boss on that same board I frequent. I like it.

[korme]

Homer Bailey has been called up. Not quite sure if he's ready, but it's hard to be worse than our #5's Belisle/Fogg... but if it works out, I will be very happy. No more stopgaps, no more try-outs until 2011, 5 full-time starters.

At the same time, I still don't feel like he's ready. (hard not to smile about anything Reds right now)

[Scoobz0202]

I definitely don't think he is ready. He was getting rocked down in AAA.

Hopefully I am wrong, though.

[Scoobz0202]

dola-

Monday - Arroyo
Tuesday - Harang
Wednesday - Volquez
Thursday - Bailey
Friday - Cueto



I never thought the day would come.... Never...that I was excited...for every...game...of the...week..

[Butter]

Bailey can't be any worse than Fogg and Belisle. I know some people were excited to get Belisle back earlier this year. But I couldn't figure out why. And at least Bailey has upside. The same cannot be said for Fogg and Belisle.

[Scoobz0202]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Bailey can't be any worse than Fogg and Belisle. I know some people were excited to get Belisle back earlier this year. But I couldn't figure out why. And at least Bailey has upside. The same cannot be said for Fogg and Belisle.

Yeah, but I don't mind seeing Fogg and Belisle in Dusty's hands. Bailey...


Reds fans... Say a prayer going into Thursday for the sake of Homer Bailey's arm.

[Scoobz0202]

Even though we lost, still a good day. The Boss cranked another. And the offense looked really good. Really good. They were nailing the ball. Sadly though, the ball was going straight at the defense.

I just wish we didn't have to use Bronson in the rotation. He just is not good. I would say if Bailey looks good go with a 4-man, but I don't think it would be smart to put that much stress on the arms of Volquez, Bailey, and Cueto. But Baker will, no doubt.

[korme]

Have won 7 of the last 9... and we're up 1-0 on CC and the 'Crew, despite having the worst lineup imaginable in today.

[cougarfreak]

Homer Bailey looked much, much better today. Hopefully that bodes well for him.

[korme]

Griffey traded to the ChiSox for P Masset, and INF(?) Richar.

Now, this is goin to be sweet before Hairston gets called up, because The Best Player in Dusty's Eyes Corey Patterson will get to make a few more starts in CF!

Speaking of bad lineup decisions, it's good that Griff is gone so we can finally open up the 3-hole for someone deserving of it. Also, stop riding the Paul Bako gravy train from the first few months. He's flatlined at this point, and David Lee Ross needs to retake over his starting catcher role.

I asked this in the MLB thread, but what do we do at the end of the season with Cherry Hairston?

[RendeR]

Ok, I haven't pai the slightest attention to this season. I saw on ESPN that Griffey is finaally gone, good to that. So...whats the condition of my beloved Red machine?

Do we have a prayer anytime soon?

[korme]

Well our core lineup is RF Bruce (21), 3B Encarnacion (25), 1B Votto (24), 2B Phillips (27), and Dunn is still only 28.

And we've got arguably the best pitcher from the first half of the season in 24 yo Edinson Volquez. Also young fireballer Johnny Cueto, 22, has much promise. Tag along Harang and if Arroyo can show some consistency, we've got the potential for a dangerous rotation.

Also, we finally have a good closer and setup guy, with the mid relief being shaky to average.

All in all we're still 51-58, so that might seem like I'm being a bit too overly optimistic, but this is the best I've felt about a Reds team since probably 1999.

[rowech]

Griffey is way past his value to an up and coming team. Kudos to management for having the guts to do the right thing. The money from Griffey can be spent much better next year.

I'd like to still see them move Weathers if someone will take him and I'm still not sold on Arroyo.

None of this matters if they don't FIRE DICK POLE!!!!

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by korme

this is the best I've felt about a Reds team since probably 1999.

Same here.

The staff loooks to be decent for the next few years with all the youth we have...but I'd probably try and get rid of Arroyo as soon as we can. Maybe Thompson will turn into a solid starter with more time in the minors because I don't think we'll shell out money for a big name starter this offseason.

Ross isn't the answer at catcher, so I'd like to try and get someone to fill that gap for the next few seasons...and we need a center fielder.

For a Cincinnati Reds team, that's a very small number of gaps in the lineup. I feel great about the future.

[RendeR]

Wow, good to hear then. Thanks guys =)

[korme]

Originally Posted by VPI97

Same here.

The staff loooks to be decent for the next few years with all the youth we have...but I'd probably try and get rid of Arroyo as soon as we can. Maybe Thompson will turn into a solid starter with more time in the minors because I don't think we'll shell out money for a big name starter this offseason.

Ross isn't the answer at catcher, so I'd like to try and get someone to fill that gap for the next few seasons...and we need a center fielder.

For a Cincinnati Reds team, that's a very small number of gaps in the lineup. I feel great about the future.

I'm not sold on Kep anymore at SS, he's been really struggling since coming back from his injury, his average has dipped below .280, and that's all he's got going for him.

[rowech]

Well...I'm not sold on Cueto either. Kid needs to learn how to pitch instead of how to throw.

[korme]

He's 21, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, as he's got nasty stuff. I'm not giving the same to Bailey, however.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by korme

I'm not sold on Kep anymore at SS, he's been really struggling since coming back from his injury, his average has dipped below .280, and that's all he's got going for him.

Yeah, but we have Janish in AAA...I think he'll turn out to be a solid major league SS.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by korme

He's 21, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, as he's got nasty stuff. I'm not giving the same to Bailey, however.

Stuff is there but it has to be more than stuff. You have to learn how to pitch. Volquez obviously has. Cueto's stuff is better than Volquez in my opinion.

Bailey blows.

[JPhillips]

I love the Reds, but I don't see us all that close to competing for the playoffs. Right now they're short at C, SS and at least one OF, two if they don't sign Dunn. They need at least two better starters, but these may come in house. In the bullpen they need a couple better setup men.

All in all, the Reds have a lot of holes to fill to compete in 2009 or 2010.

[korme]

Nice article slamming the douche known as Paul Daugherty.

via FJM:

Pointless Ode To A Big Donkey


Another guy doesn't like Adam Dunn. His name is Paul Daugherty, and I'm going to write about his column. It will be a total waste of time for everyone involved, particularly the reader. This territory has been covered one million times. Please, I beg you, do not waste your time reading about another Adam Dunn article.

Instead, I recommend checking out the photos of the fake-or-not Bigfoot of Georgia, arranging wake-up calls for your friends from Hannah Montana, or getting super high and playing with this thing.

Last warning: you have read this article and the corresponding criticism may times before, in slightly different forms. Go away, now.

Dunn Too Much To Afford
Defense, demeanor, salary too costly

The Reds, who are exciting only when they're not playing, traded Adam Dunn to the Arizona Diamondbacks Monday for a 23-year-old Class-A starting pitcher named Dallas Buck who, in another life, died in old Western movies...As insignificant as Dunn was to winning here, 40 homers and 100 RBI don't appear magically every March.

Nobody was winning in Cincinnati. Maybe Dunn was "insignificant to winning" (?) because his team sucked, and Dusty Baker chews a toothpick that makes him dumber. I'll give Daugherty this: it takes some pretty serious ballzos (an Italian word meaning "balls") to point out Dunn's massive productive abilities, and casually dismiss the notion that he might have been helping his team win in the same sentence. I look forward to reading Mr. Daugherty's new book: "Thousands and Thousands of Delicious Slices of Mouth-Watering Pizza That I've Eaten: I Hate Pizza."

Stop reading this, and call your mother or listen to Wowee Zowee or play some table tennis or whatever gets you through the day.

After the club traded Ken Griffey Jr., the brass wanted to see if Dunn would emerge as a clubhouse presence. Apparently, after 11 days, the brass had seen enough.

Why should this apply only to Dunn? Don't get me wrong -- I get why they traded him, though I don't understand why they didn't do it earlier. But let me ask this: did anyone emerge as a clubhouse presence after Griffey was traded? Why should Dunn be singled out for failing to do so? If that's one of the criterion that the Reds value, then shouldn't anyone who didn't emerge as a clubhouse presence be given the same demerits, even if it doesn't end in a trade?

Maybe it's because he's a veteran, and he makes a bunch of money, and you ask a little more of guys like that. I could see that. I'm sure they'll hold Francisco Cordero -- a player with more experience, making just a bit less than Dunn this year -- to the same scrutiny.

This is so boring and such old news. EVERYONE GO SWIMMING I DON'T CARE IF YOU HAVE A POOL OR NOT.

Regardless, Dunn's tax bracket didn't match his production, at least not here. He'd have wanted too much money for what he provided. Dunn was who he was: a guy who could hit a baseball 400 feet more often than almost anyone else, but couldn't produce a two-out RBI single.

Obviously the first thing you do after reading something like this is check out Dunn's numbers this year. Find out how many RBI singles he has with RISP and two outs. In the back of your mind, you get greedy. You're hoping for something like 25 singles in 70 such at bats.

But I'll admit when I'm beat (sort of). You know how many singles Dunn has this year with two outs and runners in scoring position?

One.

Wa-unnnnnn.

Point: Daugher -- fucking no! Wait. Let's look at the rest of Dunn's line with 2 outs and RsISP:

In 37 AB's (pretty small sample, of course): .216 / .453 / .730 (!) (1.183 OPS)
6 HR, 20 RsBI, 15 R, 13 BB

Dude was pretty fucking good when it mattered, if you think that's when it mattered. Now, everyone, take a nap.

He was a big man whose bigness could give the impression he wasn't trying. Baseball wasn't his passion. It was his job. He played it that way.

I can't tell you how beautiful I find this paragraph. It starts almost on Dunn's side, and by the end, we're just straight up slamming him for -- God forbid -- playing baseball like it's his job. Which it is.

"Another day closer to retirement," Dunn said once a few years ago, around the batting cage before a game. That was Dunn. His teammates liked him, but he didn't lead. Laid back should be a character trait, not a career choice. Not when you're making $13 million.

Every attempt to discredit Adam Dunn makes me love the guy even more. He sounds like everyone's Dad.

But, oh, Adam Troy Dunn. You made the cardinal sin of baseball. Instead of using your laid back-ness as a character trait, you used it as a career choice. Didn't you know? It's totally acceptable for laid back to be a career choice if you're making, like, the league average, which is roughly 62 times the national median household salary. But once you're making 13MM/yr? Dude. Character trait only. Big mistake.

Also, by the way, his teammates liked him. Daugherty just told us that. They liked the guy. His mistake, apparently, was that he didn't lead stop reading this and do something productive like balancing your checkbook if people still do that I don't really know.

It's doubtful Arizona will keep him after this season. Dunn will be the prototypical DH in '09, when his adventures in Left Field Land won't be duplicated.

On the off chance that any eccentric billionaires are reading this blog: I will pay one hundred U.S. dollars, and maybe more, for admission to a theme park called Left Field Land. May I make a suggestion, please? There should be a really good fried chicken restaurant in the food court called "The Fowl Pole." Also a giant waterslide into a pool shaped like Ted Williams' torso. And I hope this goes without saying: no women or minorities should be allowed inside Left Field Land.

To be dealt to Arizona, Dunn had to clear waivers. Any other club could have claimed him and the trade would not have been made. None did.

What's that? You think just because Paul Daugherty writes about baseball for a major newspaper, he should have a fundamental understanding of how waiver trades work?

You're so silly. I like you.

Only clubs with records worse than the Diamondbacks could have put in a claim on Dunn that would have made a difference. And most of those teams are out of contention, and have no reason to add Dunn's salary in a hopeless year. In fact, there were several reports that teams with better records than the Diamondbacks also put in claims for Dunn, hoping they might be able to snatch him up. So, more accurately: "Other clubs did claim him and the trade still happened."

Those enamored with numbers couldn't get enough of Adam Dunn. Stat freaks genuflected at the foot of Dunn's on-base percentage, while dismissing his detractors as ill-informed hacks.

Far be it from me to suggest that a guy who just demonstrated a basic misunderstanding of how waiver trades work, in the midst of writing an article with such a trite premise that I'm getting tired of making fun of it, an ill-informed hack.

Forty Homers! Hundred RBI! Hundred Runs! Look at that man ... Walk! The standard argument was, and is, "How do you replace numbers like those?" We're about to find out.

One thing you have to say about stat geeks: there are no stats that they love more than Runs and Runs Batted In. Excellent research, good sir.

And you know what? Great work all around, guys. I formally invite anyone still reading this to join me in a murder-suicide pact.

NOTE: After reading the article in its entirety, I noticed that a number of commenters pointed out Daugherty's mistake about how trades work after the July 31st deadline. No corrections have been made as of the time this blog went to press, which is not a real thing.

Thanks to reader Mark R. for the article tip.

[Crapshoot]

I do wonder why Marty Brenneman is still employed. He comes across as a cantankerous old fart who keeps bitching about players - didn't he do the same thing with Larkin back in the day?