Possible Penguins relocation

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Oh, I think you can read a lot into the latest article. The owners are now throwing out one final bluff of sorts. They're implying they're serious about moving and that Pittsburgh has to improve their offer. We went from the Pittsburgh people meeting with the owners early next week to the KC people meeting with the owners early next week. Pittsburgh probably has one last chance to improve their offer. The Pitt owners would have already accepted the KC deal if they weren't willing to give Pittsburgh leaders one more shot.

The same thing could have been said a month ago.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

The same thing could have been said a month ago.

The difference is that the NHL and the Pens have told Pittsburgh that they need to decide quickly (NHL set Sunday, Feb. 4th as the target date for a decision). While they may not meet that, the fact that they are ready to proceed in talks with KC on Sunday is a pretty good indicator what they think of the Pittsburgh 'revised' offer.

I'm sure we're going to know a lot more on Monday.

[kcchief19]

Anybody hear anything? I actually was in a meeting with someone today who would be in the know and he told me that it's not looking good for the Penguins coming here. Sigh.

We're going to get and NHL team ... I just wanted a good NHL team.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

I haven't heard anything new. I wouldn't mind KC having a team, just not my Pens. I actually wouldn't be surprised if the Preds move out of Nashville. They've got the best record in the league but they can't sell out at home?

[devynd]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Anybody hear anything?

There hasn't been any word here since last week, and even then it was the usual rumors. I'm not sure if we'll really know anything until a deal is actually completed. Beyond that, I'm not sure if it would be productive to say much more here until the matter is resolved.

As far as KC getting a good team, it really didn't take that long for most of the recent expansion teams to get good, so if you get an expansion team that isn't necessarily bad news -- and it's not as if the Pens weren't playing like an expansion team the last few seasons.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

I really hope the NHL doesn't expand. I think it's too big as it is right now.

[KevinNU7]

I'm not dead yet

[Wolfpack]

Originally Posted by KevinNU7

I'm not dead yet

As a matter of fact, I just wrote an article for Redbook.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Big news coming out of Pittsburgh. Pens have called off talks and are now aggressively looking to move to Kansas City. Given that the deal is already on the table and the Pens like it, this may not take long..........


Pens not very likely to stay in Pittsburgh....
Penguins declare impasse in arena talks
Will pursue other offers aggressively, letter says

Monday, March 05, 2007
By Mark Belko, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

The Penguins have declared an impasse in negotiations with government officials over construction of a new arena and will aggressively explore relocating the team to a new city.

Penguins co-owners Mario Lemieux and Ron Burkle notified Gov. Ed Rendell, Allegheny County Chief Executive Dan Onorato and Pittsburgh Mayor Luke Ravenstahl about their decision in a letter today.

The team is declaring an impasse even though it has agreed to pay $3.6 million a year in rent, plus another $400,000 a year in capital expenses, for an annual contribution of $4 million, for a new arena.

They also have agreed to pay $500,000 for a parking garage to be built as part of the arena complex.

Despite that, the parties have been unable to reach an agreement.

"Unfortunately, we still don't have a deal and are faced with mounting uncertainty that an agreement can be reached in a time frame that is realistic for our organization," the letter states. "Therefore, we have no choice but to declare an impasse and to notify NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman that we will aggressively explore relocation."

The team owners also said in the letter that Friday's appeals on the Pittsburgh slots license "cause us great concern." Don Barden, the winning casino bidder, has pledged $7.5 million a year from slots proceeds toward an arena. But with appeals filed against the award, construction of the casino could be delayed and it is not clear when arena payments could begin.

"A project of this scope, with so many complex issues, can ill afford further delays that add more risk and more uncertainty," the letter continues. "The risk has been magnified by what we perceive as a lack of collaboration from the public sector in the negotiations."

One of the last straws came Friday when public officials refused to share interest rate information with the team regarding the state's financial assumptions, according to sources close to the Penguins.

The Penguins have increased their contribution from $2.86 million per year, which was part of the original offer that was presented by state and local leaders at a meeting Jan. 4.

The team now is expected to be more aggressive in bargaining with Kansas City, which has a nearly finished new arena but no hockey team.

The declaration of an impasse doesn't mean the Penguins have definitely decided to leave, but at this point there is no indication they intend to talk any more with local officials.

The team said it had already extended its original deadline of early February because it was interested in staying in Pittsburgh.

"Our good faith efforts have not produced a deal, however, and have only added more anxiety to what we thought at best was a risky proposition for us moving forward."


http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07064/767020-100.stm

[kcchief19]

Funny thing is that this morning on the radio here in KC they were interviewing a reporter in Pittsburgh who said that the negotiations were down to who would cover cost overruns. The word here was that the Penguins thought the building would cost $290 million but the state thought it would come in at $270 million. It sounds like Rendell was trying to put pressure on the Penguins to pick up the overruns and they have no interest in that. The reporter put the chance of the Penguins leavin at "10 percent."

Funny thing is, this is what went through my head when I heard the report this morning: "Too bad, sounds like we won't get the Penguins. Wait a minute -- the way these negotiations are going, they'll probably be in Kansas City by the end of the week."

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Funny thing is that this morning on the radio here in KC they were interviewing a reporter in Pittsburgh who said that the negotiations were down to who would cover cost overruns. The word here was that the Penguins thought the building would cost $290 million but the state thought it would come in at $270 million. It sounds like Rendell was trying to put pressure on the Penguins to pick up the overruns and they have no interest in that. The reporter put the chance of the Penguins leavin at "10 percent."

Funny thing is, this is what went through my head when I heard the report this morning: "Too bad, sounds like we won't get the Penguins. Wait a minute -- the way these negotiations are going, they'll probably be in Kansas City by the end of the week."

Pittsburgh's warning message was early last month when the Penguin management gave the indication that they would consider KC. That last threat was more of a power play by the Penguins management. This time, it's a 'we've had enough' message. Reportedly, the Pens have just about had it with the local and county government. Too bad as it seems that Rendall actually had Pittsburgh's best interests in mind despite his Philly roots.

Pitt's loss is KC's gain. I'd love to watch Crosby play in KC for the next 10-15 years.

[kcchief19]

It's hard to trust what is happening because both sides have used he media as a negotiating tool. Granted, this is the last straw. Time is running out and the only bluff the Pens have left is to go to the city saying they've got Kansas City's offer and are ready to sign. If the city caves and agrees to cover overruns, they're going to stay in Pittsburgh.

I'm unsure on what signals we're getting on he prospects of this happening. Del Biaggio had said a season ticket drive would start after the first of the year, and that hasn't happened yet. If this happens, I'm going to try to find a way to buy season tickets. It would be a blast.

[stevew]

This whole thing would go smoother if Fast Eddie wasn't trying to make sure he came out ahead on the deal in his own interests. Four more fucking years of the state of Philadelphia.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by stevew

Four more fucking years of the state of Philadelphia.

Until looking it up out of idle curiosity (or maybe not quite idle since I did do something about it), I never consciously realized that the Philly metro area was so close to making up half the population of Pennsylvania. Almost 48%, 5.8 million of 12.4 million, according to the 2005 pop. estimates.

By comparison, Atlanta metro is 54% of Georgia's estimated '05 population.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Lemieux didn't pull any punches in the letter to the gov't officials.........

March 5, 2007


Dear Governor Rendell, County Executive Onorato and Mayor Ravenstahl:


Nearly eight years ago we bought the Penguins out of bankruptcy and have worked ever since to try to get a new multi-purpose arena. Now, with a growing sense of urgency because our lease at Mellon Arena expires in June, we have engaged in two months of negotiations on your "Plan B" proposal. We agreed to pay $3.6 million in annual rent as part of our proposal to keep the team in Pittsburgh. We also agreed to pay $400,000 a year in capital expenses, for an annual contribution of $4 million. This amounts to $120 million over 30 years. In addition, we agreed to be at risk for cost overruns. We can do no more.


Unfortunately, we still don't have a deal and are faced with mounting uncertainty that an agreement can be reached in a time frame that is realistic for our organization. Therefore, we have no choice but to declare an impasse and to notify NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman that we will aggressively explore relocation.


This is a disappointing but necessary conclusion, given the uncertainty that exists as we attempt to move forward. The recent appeals filed with the Pennsylvania Gaming Control Board, which may delay even further the awarding of the slots license and the primary funding source of the arena plan, cause us great concern. A project of this scope, with so many complex issues, can ill afford further delays that add more risk and more uncertainty.


The risk has been magnified by what we perceive as a lack of collaboration from the public sector in the negotiations. That does not bode well for the public/private partnership necessary to successfully navigate the multiple issues of an arena development of this magnitude.


On January 4, we visited Kansas City and were greeted with open arms by arena officials and political and business leaders and were treated as valued new partners in the community. The terms of the deal offered in Kansas City were for a rent-free arena with no risk of cost overruns and no risk to arena funding. The arena is scheduled to open for next season.


Despite this great offer, we wanted to keep the team in Pittsburgh and thought we owed it to our fans to do everything we could to make it work here. With that in mind, and on behalf of our organization, our loyal fans and the Pittsburgh region, we have made a single-minded effort to bring this new arena process to a successful conclusion and keep the team in Pittsburgh. Since the January 4 meeting we have played by the rules, extended our original deadline by 30 days, declined to visit any other cities and sought to work with you to try to finalize a deal.


Our good-faith efforts have not produced a deal, however, and have only added more anxiety to what we thought at best was a risky proposition for us moving forward. Those risks and the fact that our lease expires in less than four months leave us with no choice but to explore every option to ensure the long-term future of the Penguins organization.


Sincerely,


Mario Lemieux

Ron Burkle


cc: Gary Bettman, Commissioner

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Sounds like Rendall may not have been quite as helpful as I previously implied in another post. 'Table-pounding outburst' is probably not the best way to get a deal done......

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07065/767149-61.stm

Penguins' arena negotiations on thin ice
Tuesday, March 06, 2007

By Mark Belko, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

The Penguins dropped the gloves in negotiations over a new arena yesterday, declaring an impasse in the talks and saying they would "aggressively explore relocation."

The decision surprised Allegheny County Chief Executive Dan Onorato and Pittsburgh Mayor Luke Ravenstahl, both of whom insisted they thought the two sides were close to a deal to keep the team in Pittsburgh.

But Penguins co-owners Mario Lemieux and Ron Burkle painted a far different picture in a letter to Mr. Ravenstahl, Mr. Onorato and Gov. Ed Rendell, saying they still haven't been able to reach a deal even though they have agreed to pay $4 million a year toward a new arena -- the same amount demanded by public officials nearly a year ago.

"Therefore, we have no choice but to declare an impasse and to notify [National Hockey League] Commissioner Gary Bettman that we will aggressively explore relocation," the letter said. "This is a disappointing but necessary conclusion, given the uncertainty that exists as we attempt to move forward."

The decision could push the team closer to a move to Kansas City, where the Penguins have been offered the new $276 million Sprint Center rent-free with no construction costs and half the building revenues.

Toward that end, team officials may meet this week with representatives for the Anschutz Entertainment Group, which will manage the Sprint Center and share revenues with the team.

William "Boots" Del Biaggio, the California venture capitalist who has an agreement in place with AEG to run an NHL franchise at the Sprint Center in Kansas City if he can procure one, had no comment on the letter.

A source speaking on condition of anonymity said, "I just can't see them leaving Pittsburgh. I think they're still negotiating, and this is a way to get the governor's office serious about completing the final details."

AEG President Tim Lewieke told the Kansas City Star last weekend that there are dates on hold for the team, but added he would "be very surprised if Pittsburgh came Kansas City's way."

The Penguins' Mellon Arena lease expires June 30.

Declaring an impasse does not mean the team will move, and sources close to the Penguins would not rule out further talks with state and local officials.

Both Mr. Onorato and Mr. Ravenstahl vowed to reach out to the team to try to resolve the latest flare-up.

Officials were scrambling last night to try to set up a meeting with the Penguins later this week.

"At the end of the day, I think we all have the same interests in mind, and that is to get a deal done and to keep the Penguins in Pittsburgh. We are prepared to sit back down as soon as possible, and that could be as long or as short as the Penguins want it to be," Mr. Ravenstahl said.

Frank Brown, a spokesman for Mr. Bettman, said the commissioner, who has been serving as a go-between in the talks, is aware of the latest developments and is in touch with the parties.

"Any further comment at this point would not be constructive," he said.

A spokesman for Mr. Rendell, who declared the two sides "very close" to a deal last week, declined comment.

The mayor wouldn't rule out an appeal to the NHL to block a move if it came to that. He said public officials didn't believe they would have to use that option because "we feel that we have a competitive deal on the table."

"But certainly, if it's something that we have to resort to as a last-ditch effort, it's something we'd certainly consider before we let the team leave," he said.

In their letter, team owners said appeals filed by Isle of Capri Casinos Inc. and Forest City Enterprises over the Pittsburgh casino license Friday "cause us great concern." Both casino license winner Don Barden and Forest City had pledged $7.5 million a year toward the arena, but that major funding source is now tied up in litigation before the state Supreme Court.

"A project of this scope, with so many complex issues, can ill afford further delays that add more risk and more uncertainty," the letter stated. "The risk has been magnified by what we perceive as a lack of collaboration from the public sector in the negotiations."

The declaration of an impasse came even though the two sides appeared to be close to agreement on major financial terms.

In addition to the $7.5 million a year committed by Mr. Barden, the state has agreed to contribute $7.5 million a year from a gambling-backed economic development fund, an increase of $500,000 over the amount originally proposed in the Plan B funding formula.

That formula initially called for the Penguins to contribute $4 million a year, including $1.16 million annually in naming rights, plus an upfront contribution of $8.5 million.

By the time state and local officials met with Mr. Lemieux and Mr. Burkle Jan. 4, the team's share had dropped to $2.86 million a year, according to sources close to the Penguins. The upfront share would be covered by the sale of the Penguins-owned former St. Francis Central Hospital, needed for the new arena, to the city-county Sports & Exhibition Authority.

The Penguins' share later increased after local officials dropped a proposal to use amusement tax revenue to raise $1.2 million a year. That pushed the team share to $3.6 million a year, plus another $400,000 annually for capital expenses. The team also has agreed to pay $500,000 a year for a parking garage to be part of the arena complex.

Sources close to the Penguins say, however, it's not so much the financial terms as it is a perceived lack of collaboration from public officials that has led to the impasse. They said the tone from the public side has been unduly adversarial for the last two months, including a table-pounding outburst by Mr. Rendell during a Jan. 18 meeting.

The last straw, according to those sources, came Friday, when state officials refused to share interest rate information with the team regarding the financing of the arena. The Penguins believe the two pots of gambling related revenues, plus their share, should be enough to pay for a $290 million arena; state officials indicated there's still a gap.

While the Penguins complained about a lack of collaboration from public officials, Mr. Onorato said public officials have sensed the same adversarial tone from the Penguins.

"I would say that our feelings would probably be the exact same as theirs but in reverse," he said. "But I just assumed that's part of negotiation and you ultimately get to a point where both sides agree."

Neither he nor Mr. Ravenstahl saw the appeals of the casino license as a major impediment, pointing out that all three applicants had agreed to help finance an arena.

In their letter, Mr. Lemieux and Mr. Burkle said they had extended their deadline for replying to Kansas City officials by 30 days because they wanted to stay in Pittsburgh.

"Our good-faith efforts have not produced a deal, however, and have only added more anxiety to what we thought at best was a risky proposition for us moving forward," the letter stated.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

More info coming out of KC. Sounds like the key is going to be whether Lemieux comes to visit KC again. If he visits KC on Thursday or Friday, expect a deal to move the franchise to KC.

Reports are that Bettman is pushing the Penguins management to make a decision one way or the other in the next couple of weeks because planning by the league for next season's schedule is being held up at this point until they figure out where the Pens will be located. Evidently the league likes to plan road trips to minimize travel and the divisions may be rearranged if the Pens move to KC, possing moving the Pens to the Western Conference.

[kcchief19]

I get the distinct feeling that this is like a free agent wooing ... if Lemieux and his group come to Kansas City, I don't think AEG will let them leave without a deal signed. Granted, there's local pressure on getting a team for the arena -- perhaps even more pressure pending the outcome of the mayoral election -- so AEG may be willing to move a bit, even though the original sweetheart offer was made under the pretense of this being the one and only final offer.

I don't think AEG wants to be leveraged. They know Bettman has pledged to put a team here by '09 regardless, and they might be willing to wait rather than give away the farm. If Lemeiux comes back, I think he gets a final offer that expires if he gets back on a plane -- and that will eliminate the Pens' leverage in Pittsburgh.

The bad news for Pittsburgh fans is that it sounds like this is no longer about money. It sounds like it's become personal. Lemieux doesn't like being jerked around and he doesn't like the tactics. I'm sure the Pens must be thinking that if the relationship with the city/county/state is already soured, it's only going to get worse. If it's no longer about money and it's personal, that may be the last straw.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

The bad news for Pittsburgh fans is that it sounds like this is no longer about money. It sounds like it's become personal. Lemieux doesn't like being jerked around and he doesn't like the tactics. I'm sure the Pens must be thinking that if the relationship with the city/county/state is already soured, it's only going to get worse. If it's no longer about money and it's personal, that may be the last straw.

I agree with that to a point, but it's going on year 8 nearly. If his feelings weren't hurt in the first 7 years, why now?

Also, Lemieux is the 'figurehead' owner, the public piece. Ron Burkle is the money guy. I'd imagine he'll have some say too.

Pittsburgh side update- http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07065/767234-100.stm

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

Pittsburgh side update- http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07065/767234-100.stm

Yikes! The city council is now firing shots at the mayor. Always nice when people that should be allies in this situation start eating their own.

FWIW.......this article makes it quite clear just how clueless the gov't officials were about the situation. They insisted publicly that everything was going well while the house was burning to the ground behind them.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Yikes! The city council is now firing shots at the mayor. Always nice when people that should be allies in this situation start eating their own.

FWIW.......this article makes it quite clear just how clueless the gov't officials were about the situation. They insisted publicly that everything was going well while the house was burning to the ground behind them.

I absolutely believe Rendall's statement Friday were not out of cluelessness, but out of desparation--to make another 'best effort' look for the cameras and newspapers.

As far as the Mayor/City council...the mayor is a 26 year old kid who is now mayor because the prior mayor died last fall, and this kid was the president of city council. The council member calling him out is his soon to be opponent for the mayor's office.

[Scarecrow]

For the people that think it's just a tactic to get more:

Text of the Penguins' letter to Rendell, Ravenstahl and Onorato
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

March 5, 2007


Dear Governor Rendell, County Executive Onorato and Mayor Ravenstahl:


Nearly eight years ago we bought the Penguins out of bankruptcy and have worked ever since to try to get a new multi-purpose arena. Now, with a growing sense of urgency because our lease at Mellon Arena expires in June, we have engaged in two months of negotiations on your "Plan B" proposal. We agreed to pay $3.6 million in annual rent as part of our proposal to keep the team in Pittsburgh. We also agreed to pay $400,000 a year in capital expenses, for an annual contribution of $4 million. This amounts to $120 million over 30 years. In addition, we agreed to be at risk for cost overruns. We can do no more.


Unfortunately, we still don't have a deal and are faced with mounting uncertainty that an agreement can be reached in a time frame that is realistic for our organization. Therefore, we have no choice but to declare an impasse and to notify NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman that we will aggressively explore relocation.


This is a disappointing but necessary conclusion, given the uncertainty that exists as we attempt to move forward. The recent appeals filed with the Pennsylvania Gaming Control Board, which may delay even further the awarding of the slots license and the primary funding source of the arena plan, cause us great concern. A project of this scope, with so many complex issues, can ill afford further delays that add more risk and more uncertainty.


The risk has been magnified by what we perceive as a lack of collaboration from the public sector in the negotiations. That does not bode well for the public/private partnership necessary to successfully navigate the multiple issues of an arena development of this magnitude.


On January 4, we visited Kansas City and were greeted with open arms by arena officials and political and business leaders and were treated as valued new partners in the community. The terms of the deal offered in Kansas City were for a rent-free arena with no risk of cost overruns and no risk to arena funding. The arena is scheduled to open for next season.


Despite this great offer, we wanted to keep the team in Pittsburgh and thought we owed it to our fans to do everything we could to make it work here. With that in mind, and on behalf of our organization, our loyal fans and the Pittsburgh region, we have made a single-minded effort to bring this new arena process to a successful conclusion and keep the team in Pittsburgh. Since the January 4 meeting we have played by the rules, extended our original deadline by 30 days, declined to visit any other cities and sought to work with you to try to finalize a deal.


Our good-faith efforts have not produced a deal, however, and have only added more anxiety to what we thought at best was a risky proposition for us moving forward. Those risks and the fact that our lease expires in less than four months leave us with no choice but to explore every option to ensure the long-term future of the Penguins organization.


Sincerely,


Mario Lemieux

Ron Burkle

cc: Gary Bettman, Commissioner

[KevinNU7]

must be difficult to read back like 5 posts

[kcchief19]

Another odd thing that has struck me is some of the overlap in players in Pittsburgh and Kansas City. Isle of Capri, which won the casino license and is kicking in money to the arena, also has a casino in Kansas City that is only about five minutes away from the Sprint Center. Forest City, which is leading the redevelop of the area around the planned Pittsburgh arena, is also the project developer for an urban redevelopment project in Downtown Kansas City located a few blocks away.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Another odd thing that has struck me is some of the overlap in players in Pittsburgh and Kansas City. Isle of Capri, which won the casino license and is kicking in money to the arena, also has a casino in Kansas City that is only about five minutes away from the Sprint Center. Forest City, which is leading the redevelop of the area around the planned Pittsburgh arena, is also the project developer for an urban redevelopment project in Downtown Kansas City located a few blocks away.

Isle of Capri didn't win the casino license in Pittsburgh. If they had, the Penguins wouldn't be going anywhere because IoC would've built the arena without costing the Penguins a cent.

That is, unless something dramatic has happened in the past few days that I didn't hear about (which is possible).

[Pyser]

ok, i dont get it

did kc build a state of the art arena and just hope theyd land a hockey or basketball team?

thats sorta odd, considering how much of a battle it is to build arenas in other places.

[cuervo72]

Rendell. R-e-n-d-e-l-l.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Isle of Capri didn't win the casino license in Pittsburgh. If they had, the Penguins wouldn't be going anywhere because IoC would've built the arena without costing the Penguins a cent.

That is, unless something dramatic has happened in the past few days that I didn't hear about (which is possible).

Drat ... you would think I would have remembered that. I was just reading about Forest City and Isle of Capri appealing the decision on the license and got it stuck in my head that IoC had won it.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Pyser

ok, i dont get it

did kc build a state of the art arena and just hope theyd land a hockey or basketball team?

thats sorta odd, considering how much of a battle it is to build arenas in other places.

KC built the arena because there was already a need there and the NHL has repeatedly told KC that if they built a new arena, they'd jump to the top of the list when a new team became available. If KC doesn't get the Pens this year, they are very likely to get either the Predators or an expansion team in the next year or two. It's just a matter of when in regards to the NHL coming to KC. The owners of the new arena in KC also own the Staples Center in LA and have a lot of connections that they can use in both the NBA and NHL.

The arena will be used quite a bit already even without the NHL or NBA. The old arena is in a bad area and is not well maintained. The new arena was needed to get KC back in the B12 tourney basketball rotation (It was the site of the Big 8/Big 12 tourney until the old arena became so bad that they were forced to move it). It also puts KC back into the mix to host NCAA regional b-ball tourney events. The National College Basketball Hall of Fame and the national headquarters of the NABC (National Association of Basketball Coaches) will be located at the new arena and will be open year-round. Also, many concert tours skipped KC because the old arena wasn't equipped to handle their stages and equipment. That won't be a problem anymore. The KC arena football team will play there as well. KC also has one of the largest convention centers in the nation that is only two blocks from the new arena. Many of the conventions will use the arena for large scale meetings when the big groups are in town.

[Dr. Sak]

Bettman is coming to Pittsburgh Thursday when the two sides talk again.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Isle of Capri didn't win the casino license in Pittsburgh. If they had, the Penguins wouldn't be going anywhere because IoC would've built the arena without costing the Penguins a cent.

That is, unless something dramatic has happened in the past few days that I didn't hear about (which is possible).

I know that there are two lawsuits currently filed challenging the status of that casino license. That is causing some problems as that could drag on for quite some time, resulting in that money being in limbo until it's resolved.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Pyser

ok, i dont get it

did kc build a state of the art arena and just hope theyd land a hockey or basketball team?

thats sorta odd, considering how much of a battle it is to build arenas in other places.

Yes, but it was somewhat of a unique situation here. Kemper Arena is an asbolute hole, and there was sufficient momentum to get the ball rolling on an arena just so we could battle to keep the Big XII tournament and attract major concerts and events that skip KC because we don't have a state of the art arena.

But the kicker was AEG agreeing to come in and run the arena and pick up cost overruns. AEG was convinced that it could land an NHL or NBA team, so they were willing to take a gamble if the city stepped up to the plate. Kansas City needs a tenant to help pay off the bonds on the arena, but AEG actually has the most to lose if the building is empty. I think it's pretty clear that the NHL assured AEG if the arena was built, they would put a team in KC.

I think it's almost easier to build an arena to attract a team than it is to keep a team. OKC did it, we're doing it and some other cities have done it too. Voters seem willing to pay more to win a payoff than they are to pay to keep what they have.

[Dr. Sak]

What I heard today is the deal for the Pens staying in Pittsburgh is all about done except the cost overruns. The State wants the Pens to pay it all upfront while the Pens want to pay it off over time.

[SFL Cat]

It's hockey...who cares

*runs and hides as razor sharp pucks come whizzing at me*

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by bsak16

What I heard today is the deal for the Pens staying in Pittsburgh is all about done except the cost overruns. The State wants the Pens to pay it all upfront while the Pens want to pay it off over time.

That report was incorrect. It was cited on a Pens fan board, but I'm pretty sure they've already found that was info that was passed on before the letter, but wasn't published until after the letter was sent when it was already outdated and found to be inaccurate.

[Dr. Sak]

So info I got from Stan Savern (who covers the Pens everyday) and got this info from an interview with someone from the Pens is wrong? I'm sorry I don't believe you.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by bsak16

So info I got from Stan Savern (who covers the Pens everyday) and got this info from an interview with someone from the Pens is wrong? I'm sorry I don't believe you.

That info was correct a couple of days ago, but wasn't telling the whole story. Read the letter above directly from the Pens management that was published the same day that article was published. I'm thinking they didn't send that letter just because there was one or two things left to iron out. If so, that's the biggest overreaction by a management team I've ever seen.

[Dr. Sak]

First let me start by saying I am not a Pens fan. I am a Flyers fan but I really like hockey.

I'm not going to argue anymore because it is like beating my head against a wall. This is a hot topic in Pittsburgh and I highly doubt they would be reporting two day old news as brand new stuff on Fox Sports Pittsburgh, the home of the Pens. Savern is pretty connected inside the Pens and he is the one talking about the only issue being the overruns. The Pens brass is pretty pissed about the way they have been treated by the politicans but i doubt that gets in the way of a deal.

They have one of the highest if not THE highest TV ratings for a local market in the country. They are playing at 95% capacity and they are already accepting non-refundable deposits for season tickets for next season.

Even though all this stuff has come out I really doubt they are going anywhere. Bettman coming to Pittsburgh on Thursday just tells that the NHL does not want this team to go anywhere. KC will get a team but it wont be the Pens.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by bsak16

First let me start by saying I am not a Pens fan. I am a Flyers fan but I really like hockey.

I'm not going to argue anymore because it is like beating my head against a wall. This is a hot topic in Pittsburgh and I highly doubt they would be reporting two day old news as brand new stuff on Fox Sports Pittsburgh, the home of the Pens. Savern is pretty connected inside the Pens and he is the one talking about the only issue being the overruns. The Pens brass is pretty pissed about the way they have been treated by the politicans but i doubt that gets in the way of a deal.

They have one of the highest if not THE highest TV ratings for a local market in the country. They are playing at 95% capacity and they are already accepting non-refundable deposits for season tickets for next season.

Even though all this stuff has come out I really doubt they are going anywhere. Bettman coming to Pittsburgh on Thursday just tells that the NHL does not want this team to go anywhere. KC will get a team but it wont be the Pens.

All that and the team is still losing money and has been waiting for a new arena for 8 years now.

Also, I would note that Bettman has all but dismissed any talk that he will intervene at this point.

Mario Lemieux and members of the Pens ownership are coming to Kansas City on Thursday and then are flying on to meet with officials in Las Vegas on Friday. If they're doing that just because they need to iron out a cost overrun situation, that's an awfully big overreaction.

FWIW.......the cost overrun difference is a much bigger situation than you make it out to be. The price of steel has increased dramatically in recent weeks and Pittsburgh officials are aware that the price is widely expected to increase dramatically in the next couple of years. There's a reason that the city doesn't want cost overruns on their end. They know that it's pretty likely that there will be large cost overruns if the arena were to be built and they don't want to foot that bill.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

More fuel to the fire.......

The Detroit Free Press is reporting that 'inside' sources (I'm assuming that means NHL or Red Wings officials) have already made the decision that Detroit will be moved to the Eastern Conference if the Pens move to KC and join the Western Conference. Pretty doubtful that this kind of a decision would be made if the Pens staying in Pittsburgh was a done deal.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Article now out on Sports Illustrated website. Rendall is playing the "I'm going to make Gary Bettman keep you from moving" card. That's usually not a good sign that you feel a deal is even close to being done. It should also be noted that the Pens management group publicly states in this article that they are even willing to cover cost overruns, so there's obviously something else holding up the deal other than cost overruns as the Fox Sports Pittsburgh writer had implied..........


'If they don't take it ...'
Gov. Rendell says he'll ask NHL to stop Pens' move
Posted: Tuesday March 6, 2007 6:41PM; Updated: Tuesday March 6, 2007 7:19PM


PITTSBURGH (AP) -- Gov. Ed Rendell says he will turn to the National Hockey League to prevent the Pittsburgh Penguins from moving, one day after the team said it had reached an impasse in negotiations with state, county and local officials to finance a new arena.

"The governor believes we have put an exceptionally attractive offer on the table," according to a statement released by Rendell's office. Later in the day, Rendell told reporters, "If they don't take it, we're going to be up in New York asking the NHL to bar the Penguins from moving."

On Monday, the Penguins said they will actively pursue relocation and blamed government officials for failing to cut a new arena deal.

Owners Mario Lemieux and Ron Burkle said the team has agreed to pay $120 million over 30 years toward a new $290 million arena and to cover any cost overruns.

The Penguins' lease at 46-year-old Mellon Arena, the oldest arena in the league, expires June 30. The Penguins have repeatedly said they may move the team, or sell it to someone who would move it, if no deal for a new arena is in place by then.

Officials in Kansas City have offered the Penguins free rent and half of all revenues if they agree to play in the soon-to-be-completed $262 million Sprint Center.

Pittsburgh Mayor Luke Ravenstahl said he believes it is in the team's best interest to stay in Pittsburgh and said a deal can be reached despite the team's frustration with negotiations so far.

[henry296]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

More fuel to the fire.......

The Detroit Free Press is reporting that 'inside' sources (I'm assuming that means NHL or Red Wings officials) have already made the decision that Detroit will be moved to the Eastern Conference if the Pens move to KC and join the Western Conference. Pretty doubtful that this kind of a decision would be made if the Pens staying in Pittsburgh was a done deal.

That doesn't suprise me at all. I'm sure the NHL has realignment plans for a variety of scenarios including the Penguins in Vegas, KC, and Pittsburgh. I wouldn't be surprised if the schedules have been determined in all three scenarios, too. That is just good contigency planning.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by henry296

That doesn't suprise me at all. I'm sure the NHL has realignment plans for a variety of scenarios including the Penguins in Vegas, KC, and Pittsburgh. I wouldn't be surprised if the schedules have been determined in all three scenarios, too. That is just good contigency planning.

I would agree on the schedule. The problem is obviously that the deadline for schedule finalization is quickly approaching. It's getting close to the point where they have to make a final decision.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Rendall

Again, unless this is a deliberate play on his name, it is spelled R-E-N-D-E-L-L.


(Yes, yes, I know. Consider it a mild form of mental illness.)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Gov. Rendell says he'll ask NHL to stop Pens' move

Lemme see here, I'll play Bettman.

On one side of the argument is a governor who we're not quite sure how to spell his name. On the other side of the argument is the man affectionately known as Super Mario. And on one side is the 21st largest MSA in the U.S. but one that's lost population in the past 5 years while on the other is the 27th largest MSA which grew by 6% in the past 5 years.

Hmm ... decisions, decisions.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Yet another article on the situation from www.tsn.ca. This guy is usually pretty accurate regarding situations that he writes on. Pretty accurate assessment that Pittsburgh still can hold on to the Pens if they stop jacking around while nothing that Pittsburgh officials should come to the realization that the Pens are now one final step away from leaving Pittsburgh and will be allowed to move as long as the reasoning behind the move is sound.


McKenzie: Penguins on the power play
Bob McKenzie

3/6/2007 7:31:53 PM

The Pittsburgh Penguins making noise like they may bolt to Kansas City is not a hollow threat, because it is within the realm of possibility that the team could re-locate.

But let us also see this "impasse" for what it is: the final negotiating tactic to get a deal done in Pittsburgh.

A meeting will be held later this week in Pittsburgh involving all the interested parties, including NHL commissioner Gary Bettman, whose presence would appear to be two fold.

The first - to implore the various levels of government to close the deal to keep the pens in Pittsburgh. But second - to make sure the Penguins' ownership isn't getting greedy with a lucrative Kansas City deal in their back pocket.

At the end of the day, the National Hockey League doesn't really want the Penguins in Kansas City.

It wants them in the good hockey market that Pittsburgh is, provided the new arena deal makes dollars and sense for the franchise. So while Bettman will cajole the politicians to close the deal, he will also be sending a strong message to the Penguins that there are roadblocks on the way to Kansas City and it is the league, not the Penguins, that has the final say on franchise transfers.

It appears the two sides have the basis for a deal in place, but there are concerns with the possibility of cost overruns on a new arena and who would be responsible for them.

That's apparently the sticking point right now.

The smart money suggests that with Bettman prodding both sides, they will come to a workable compromise.

But in any case, this is the final act in a play that has been running way too long.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Pens ownership moved up their trip to Vegas to today. The Pennsylvania officials want to meet with the Pens owners tomorrow, which may bump the KC visit to Friday.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07066/767364-53.stm

Penguins owners taking a look at Las Vegas today
Wednesday, March 07, 2007

By Mark Belko, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette



The Penguins will travel to Las Vegas today to explore a possible move, as state and local leaders try to arrange a meeting with the team to get talks here back on track.

Las Vegas is one of three cities interested in talking to the team after Penguins co-owners Mario Lemieux and Ron Burkle sent a letter to Gov. Ed Rendell, Allegheny County Chief Executive Dan Onorato and Mayor Luke Ravenstahl on Monday declaring an impasse in negotiations and saying they would "aggressively" consider relocation.

Team officials also are hoping to set up a meeting this week, possibly in Los Angeles, with representatives of Anschutz Entertainment Group, manager of the $276 million Sprint Center being built in Kansas City. They also are trying to set up a meeting in Houston, another city trying to attract a National Hockey League team.

At the same time, Mr. Rendell, Mr. Onorato and Mr. Ravenstahl are hoping to meet with all principals, including Mr. Lemieux and Mr. Burkle, possibly tomorrow in Philadelphia, to try to salvage a deal they have described as close to being done.

"This is a priority for us. There's a lot of flexibility in our calendars. We're going to try to get this done," Mr. Onorato said. "Let's get back in a room, find out what triggered the letter. Let's get that resolved and let's close the deal."

Despite the letter declaring an impasse, Mr. Ravenstahl insisted yesterday that the two sides were close to an agreement on funding a new arena. He said the parties need to "sit down, talk about the specifics, find out where we're not in agreement, and go from there."

He said he expected National Hockey League Commissioner Gary Bettman, who has served as a go-between the last two weeks, to be part of any new round of talks.

In Las Vegas, the Penguins are expected to talk with Mayor Oscar Goodman, who first met with National Hockey League officials several years ago in a bid to land a franchise.

The team's arena situation in Las Vegas may not be much better than it is in Pittsburgh. At least initially, the team most likely would play in the 23-year-old Thomas & Mack Center, site of the recent National Basketball Association All-Star Game.

In remarks before the game, NBA Commissioner David Stern said the league would not return to the arena. He said it was "not suitable for future All-Star events" and "not equipped to hold major league events." NBA officials also had complaints about power and lighting capacity.

Mr. Goodman claims to have five groups interested in investing in an arena, but there is no firm timetable for construction or even a deal to get one built. There's also been a continuing concern about locating a professional sports franchise in a city that allows betting on pro sports.

A spokeswoman for Mr. Goodman would not confirm today's meeting with representatives from the Penguins.

In Houston, no meeting has been set up so far. But Patrick Trahan, a spokesman for Mayor Bill White, said the mayor's office has extended an invitation to talk to the team about a possible move "when the time was right."

Officials in Houston have been trying to attract an NHL team to play in the Toyota Center, an arena that opened in 2003 and is home to the NBA Houston Rockets and the Houston Aeros of the American Hockey League.

The frontrunner in a potential relocation is Kansas City, where the $276 million Sprint Center is nearing completion and will be available next season. The Penguins are being offered a deal that includes no rent, no construction costs and a split of building revenues with AEG.

AEG spokesman Michael Roth had no comment on the situation with the Penguins yesterday.

In declaring an impasse Monday, Mr. Lemieux and Mr. Burkle said the team had agreed to put up $4 million a year toward a new arena -- $3.6 million a year in rent and $400,000 a year in funding for capital expenses. The Penguins also are adding $500,000 a year for a new parking garage.

The $4 million is exactly the same as Mr. Rendell asked the team to contribute last year under the proposed Plan B funding formula.

Other major financial elements also appear to be in place -- $7.5 million a year for 30 years from Pittsburgh casino winner Don Barden and $7.5 million annually from a gambling-backed state economic development fund, up $500,000 from the initial Plan B proposal.

Despite that, the two sides have been unable to work out a deal, leading many to wonder exactly what the holdup was. Asked about that, the mayor replied, "Numbers are numbers, and they present numbers perhaps in a different way than we present numbers."

Mr. Ravenstahl would not rule out an appeal to the NHL to block a relocation by the Penguins if the team tried to move. Mr. Rendell made the same point in interviews in Philadelphia yesterday, although a spokesman played down the threat, saying it would be a "last resort kind of thing."

"It's important to emphasize they're still trying to work this thing out," spokesman Chuck Ardo said.

The Penguins have expressed frustration as much with the tone of the talks as the substance.

Sources close to the team indicated one of the final straws came Friday, when the state refused to share interest rate information in a dispute over whether more money is needed in the financing package. They're concerned that the antagonistic tone could carry over if issues arise during construction. The Penguins co-owners said in their letter, "We can do no more."

Mr. Onorato, who said it "truly was a shock" to get Monday's letter, said one reason he wants to meet quickly is to find out exactly what is bothering the team and get it resolved.

He acknowledged there "seems to be a big disconnect" in the way the public officials have viewed the negotiations as opposed to the Penguins.

"There's been so much movement in the last month, I thought it was positive movement," he said.

Mr. Rendell said last week one of the few remaining outstanding issues was how to account for an extra $20 million added as a contingency to a proposed arena bond issue. That increased the amount of the bond issue from $270 million to $290 million.

The Penguins also have a concern about the impact the losers' appeals of the Pittsburgh slots license award will have on funding, although both Mr. Onorato and Mr. Ravenstahl indicated it would not be a major impediment.

[KevinNU7]

I don't get why Vegas doesn't have a kick ass arena already. You'd think MGM could throw $200M+ into an arena with their name all over it. Then they can host events there offer hotel rooms for functions and get the ball rolling. Makes sense to me that a Casino would want to have a nice facility near by just in case one of the top 4 sports ever wants to come they will be ahead of he class.

[Dr. Sak]

Oh Shit! Eklund is reporting that his "sources" are saying the Pens will stay in Pittsburgh. Which means...KC here they come.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Rendell is a serious nutbag. Yesterday he's publicly threatening to get the NHL involved to stop the Pens from moving. Today, he's publicly stating that media reports are overblown and that he's very optimistic that a deal can be reached. Someone seriously needs to medicate these people. It's no wonder these people can't put their heads on straight and get a deal done after seeing this whole thing play out in public.

http://post-gazette.com/pg/07066/767507-100.stm

Rendell 'still optimistic' about arena deal
Wednesday, March 07, 2007

By Tom Barnes, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

HARRISBURG -- Negotiations between government officials and the Penguins "are not as bleak as the papers make it sound,'' Gov. Ed Rendell said today, adding he is "still optimistic'' the team will remain in Pittsburgh.

Mr. Rendell expects to return further talks "later this week'' with team officials, talks that will include National Hockey League Commissioner Gary Bettman. Mr. Rendell said he is remaining positive despite the fact that Penguins officials are in Las Vegas today to discuss a move there.

As for the letter received from Penguins officials this week declaring an "impasse'' in the talks with Pittsburgh, Allegheny County and state officials, Mr. Rendell said, "I think there are negotiating ploys that are used by both sides in the process.''

Asked if the letter was such a ploy, he said, "I think to some degree it is.'' He said the letter was "a way of letting the commissioner know that we haven't gotten all the way yet and there are still one or two outstanding issues.''

He said he is staying optimistic about what have turned into difficult talks.

"As I said to the Post-Gazette when I was out there (a few days ago), we haven't nailed it down yet, and there are one or two areas that we haven't nailed down,'' he said.

He said he spoke last weekend to Commissioner Bettman -- after getting the Penguins' impasse letter.

"I said 'Commissioner, notwithstanding this letter, I think we're making great progress and I actually think we are very close.' The commissioner has been helpful recently and he will be at the next meeting.''

Mr. Rendell said he sees no "financial advantage'' for the Penguins in a move to Las Vegas, because, like Pittsburgh, it would have to build a new hockey arena from scratch. That differs from Kansas City, which is completing a new arena and wants a hockey team to fill it.

"The financial advantage that (the team) has always said to me that accrues to them most greatly is the ability to move into a new building right away and start realizing 'plus side' revenues,'' he said. "In Las Vegas, they don't have that advantage. Las Vegas couldn't build a new [arena] any faster than we could. So that advantage, which they have been saying all along is one of their big fiscal drivers, doesn't exist.

"It does exist in Kansas City, sure, which is one of the reasons I have increased out participation, and we've worked hard. Since we started meeting (about two months ago), the Penguins have asked for about 14 changes from the original Plan B proposal. My guess is that we've made 12 or 13 of the 14.

"So that's why I'm optimistic. I think we're pretty close. And I'm looking forward to the next meeting as hopefully even wrapping it up."